Transforming Conversations with Any Three: A Guide for Evangelism

Welcome to Base Camp, a podcast put out by All Things All People, which

equips you to take the gospel to the darkest places and the least

reached people all around the world.

My name is Mikel Collins.

In this episode, I sit down with Jeremy Jenkins, the founder

of All Things All People,

and we discuss an evangelism method called Any Three.

So by the end of this episode, you should have a great understanding of what the

Any Three method is and how to apply it to your own gospel conversations.

So thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoy the show.

so

The any three method or model for evangelism, formulated by Most mostly

by a guy named mike shipman, who he let a team who was engaging muslims

in a Overwhelmingly Muslim country, and also one that was fairly hostile,

towards the gospel it's called any three, because at a certain point

in the evangelism strategy, you are.

Hoping to be poised with the opportunity to ask one of any three questions.

Usually any three is used in engaging, Muslims.

you know, as you and I'll talk about, I think it's actually,

it's used can go far beyond that.

but yeah, so, so it's called any three because you're given the choice of

asking one of any three questions.

Shipman and his team came up with.

And so you're working towards a chance to work in one

of one of any of these three questions, and what are the three

So I remember hearing about this model.

When I first got out of undergraduate and started working in church ministry,

and started hanging around with like a lot of missionaries, who are

engaging Muslims with the gospel.

I think this model has been around since the nineties, maybe the early two

thousands, maybe before that I might be very wrong, Shipman and his team

found that getting to a point where you could ask something along the lines of.

Are your sins paid off yet?

when do you think your sins will be paid off or like on judgment day?

Cause Muslims do believe in a judgment day.

Do you know that your sin debt will be paid?

And so those are the three questions in all honesty, it doesn't have to

be one of those three questions, but you kind of see really, it's a three

iterations of the same question.

way you

just trying to make, asking the question of what, what about your sin?

Yeah,

what's going to happen with your sin?

gotcha, and this is, you'd say it's been around since the 90s

ish, and started by a guy named Michael

Mike Shipman.

Yeah.

And so in the study of missions, one of the more interesting things that's

happened in the last, 20, 30, 50 years.

Is there's been a lot of missiological study on what is the best way to reach

Muslims, Obviously there was a lot of evangelism towards Muslims before 9 11,

but then post 9 11, the Western world really became more, aware of what was

happening in Muslim majority countries.

And then likewise, the church really became probably more.

Inclined to send missionaries And so out of that though, there was a

big question of like, well, what's the best way to reach muslims?

and you know, we can talk some other time about that, but all the way from

like, you know, Questions like, is it permissible or wise even for what

we call a Muslim background believer?

That's something that usually like in mission circles, a Muslim who's converted

to Christianity oftentimes is designated as an MBB Muslim background believer.

which even that term is somewhat controversial in the study missions,

but like even questions like what we call insider movements.

So in some Muslim countries, there are missionaries who, You know, we'll lead

somebody to Christ or, you know, I mean, even a national movement where some

believers will actually stay in the mosque and, live out their life, following Christ

in the mosque, and inside the culture with the hope that from the inside, it'll

grow all the way to, the planting of churches and prominently Muslim areas,

all that to say in the midst of all of that, any three, became a really simple

and preferred model that to overcome the very obvious obstacles that like people

face in any evangelistic situation, but especially one tour, like when you're

In a place, in a country, let's say that is predominantly not Christian.

you have a unique set of obstacles that somebody's going to face.

And so Shipman and his team developed any three to make it easier.

what I love, and this can kind of get us into the explanation

of exactly what it is.

Like the frustration that.

That they faced and, and, we'll make sure to link to some articles.

I think there's a book that Shipman wrote that explains this, but the Genesis of

it was that they felt like they were spending so much time trying to figure

out who is ready to hear the gospel.

one thing that's interesting, I think we've talked about this in a past episode,

like on Jesus and Isa in other cultures

And specifically in, Middle Eastern culture, is they're very, very friendly.

And they're very, very hospitable.

And so missionaries like Shipman's team, who, Are in these, environments,

like sometimes they really struggle to figure out like, okay, are

they ready to hear the gospel?

Because like, do I know the culture well enough?

Do I know the language well enough?

Am I good enough friends with them?

Like, have I met their needs?

Like all these things.

And they sort of became, exhausted by this process.

And so they just decided, well, Hey, Let's just start assuming that the Holy

Spirit is, is like by the grace of God, preparing people to hear the gospel.

So let's start sharing the gospel with as many people as we

possibly

can.

And

Correct.

Yeah.

And it really, it's funny because like.

I think once people start thinking that way, it really frees us

up to feel like, okay, we don't have to till the soil, right?

Like it's on the parable of the sower.

Christ tells us like, you know, there's good soil.

Then there's the rocky soil.

Then there's the soil where the birds snatch the seed away.

Then there's the soil where the weeds grow up.

Really our job is just to sow the seed.

they started just sharing the gospel as effectively and simply as they could.

and when they would find someone who was receptive to it, that was who

they then began to disciple, like further the conversation about Christ.

If somebody was like hostile towards it or indifferent towards it, they were

just like, okay, we'll move on, you know?

And so out of that, the Any three model.

Came about, which we'll talk somewhat, formulaically about it here.

But the reason why I love it and I use it any chance I get, and then I've actually

broadened my use of it outside of just Muslims, which I think Shipman, has said,

like it can be effective for that is that the first time you hear it, it might

seem somewhat like systematic formulaic, but it's actually a tool that's.

really conversational and simple and comes down to just a few key

questions that you're trying to lace into a conversation Naturally.

Yeah, that's what I noticed when I was reading the article that you sent

me that kind of breaks it down is it's I was going through it and I do not

have the experience that you do with evangelism and missions and things and

I thought wow This feels like a just like a regular conversation that I would

have thinking about walking through it

I think what I tell people, cause I'm not, I say this a lot, like

I'm not naturally a very good evangelist.

I didn't grow up in an environment where evangelism was taught, really

didn't start being taught and equipped on how to evangelize until

I was already in church ministry.

but what I've come to learn, and I try and tell people, it's like evangelism really

is just like the ultimate Like learning the art of having conversation in a good,

like having good conversation that goes beyond the surface, but then also learning

how to, like, if we say that our faith in Christ and, the beauty of the gospel

is one of, if not the most important things about us, then we would desire

for that to be part of our conversations.

Just like, and I say this a lot, it's like, Whatever my favorite TV

show or whatever my favorite movie or whatever my favorite, like,

I recently finished reading Lord

and,

and now have gone really, really deep in reading all

this Tolkien stuff and all that.

And every time I see you, we talk about

that.

, and so I think for people listening to this, who desire to be whatever

become better evangelists, like it's really just learning how to have.

Conversation that goes beyond the surface and learning how to listen well, but

then learning that it's okay for this.

Thing about you that you, you rightly proclaim is the most important thing

about you to come to the surface and to not hide it and to allow it to

become part of your conversation and the conviction that shipment and so

many other missionaries that, you know, that I, I love and respect, throughout

time, what they realized was like, People do want to hear the gospel.

We have this picture of kind of like the God's not dead type evangelism where we

think everybody is going to shout us down.

Everybody's going to be angry.

Very rarely does that happen.

In fact, the most common reaction you're going to get is indifference,

but more often than not, I think whether it's out of respect, kindness, or a

genuine interest, people will want to know more because you're likely.

Even here in the States where, Christianity is somewhat well known,

you still are statistically most likely to be the only person who's

ever presented the gospel to the person in a complete fashion, even

if that person grew up in church,

So yeah, so Shipman, they came up with this sort of model and method and

they, they lay it out in five steps.

The first step is get connected.

and we'll break each of these down.

The second step is get to God.

The third step is get to lostness.

The fourth step is get to the gospel.

And then the fifth step is get to a decision.

the first step is get connected in every story that Shipman tells,

and you can, you can go and Google any three, and there's a number of

websites that talk about this model.

Is really what they're saying is like just have a conversation Like if this

is the first time you've met this person don't be the street preacher

who just starts with the gospel.

but then also too, there's this sort of conviction that sometimes people

will say, well, you really need to be good friends with a person before

you share the gospel with them.

Or you need to know them for a really long time.

They need to trust you.

And in the same sense, Shipman talks about well, how good a friend, how

good a friend do I need to be a person before I can share the gospel with them?

And so this step get connected is just like,

Just have a normal conversation with the person like anybody else.

Hey, how are you?

How are you doing?

where are you from?

you know, I've said before, and it's not my quote.

I've heard it numerous times, but you're only as interesting as you are interested.

And so like.

if you're like, let's say you live in, you know, I grew up outside Chicago, let's say

I'm spending time in Chicago or something like that, and I'm waking up with the

intention, like today, I want to find some people to just pray with and look to

share the gospel, or maybe I'm at work.

Maybe, you know, you and I work at a church, so presumably we

don't have as many opportunities

in

our office to share the gospel.

Well, the first step is just like be somebody that people like to talk to.

So it's okay to talk about sports.

In fact, it's actually preferred to talk about sports and music

and food and culture, because that's where people relate.

And so get connected, be friendly, be interested in them.

Like everybody's favorite topic, whether they realize it is

themselves, and, use people's name.

You know, if I'm trying to talk to somebody that I've just met,

And they say, Hey, my name's Mike.

And it's like, well, Hey Mike, I'm really Glad to meet you.

My name's Jeremy.

just stuff like that.

and so get connected.

and like I said, that's a pretty simple step.

I think most of us are actually probably fairly good at

are thing about American selves is that we're actually

it's actually one thing that, I was just, kind of

briefing one of our mission teams.

That's going to be traveling internationally this summer.

And one thing I tell every missions team that goes on a short term trip

or really anybody who's traveling is that one thing that Americans

don't realize about themselves is that we're actually quite friendly.

Like we sort of have this negative image of ourselves because

of like, there's obviously.

Things that Americans aren't necessarily the best at, but we're really friendly.

most people, when they walk down the street, don't smile and nod

every single person they pass.

And so in that sense, Americans are actually very good at small talk.

We're very good at Hey, how are you?

How's your day going?

Like Think about the last time you talked to a waitress or a barista or a cashier.

You usually don't just sit there in silence.

Yeah, leverage that, you know, get connected.

And then the more instrumental step, the second one, which is get to God.

And this is where I think most people are going to struggle to

begin to feel the nerve to do this.

this is the idea of bringing up religion, bringing up beliefs and things like that.

and it really is based around questions like, Hey, what do you believe?

where do you go to church?

And you pointed out In the Jesus and Isa episode that that's something

that is not common in america But is pretty normal in most other countries

to just ask there's no taboo around talking about religion like there is

here

Yeah.

if there is a taboo, it's not necessarily that you can't

talk about it like it is here.

It's more so like, you certainly need to be respectful and things like that.

But what Americans, sometimes don't realize is that in our culture,

religion is mostly a private choice.

a lot of Christians, or Westerners in general, intentionally raise their

children in hopes that they will pick whichever religion they like.

so what comes of that is we live in a culture where I don't know

what religion the person next to me follows if they do follow one.

And even more so it can seem sometimes offensive to ask them, but in other

cultures, Whether those cultures are overseas or like what we call a diaspora.

Diaspora means dispersion.

so like the United States is full of communities of people who is either first,

second, third generation immigrants, or first, second, third generation Americans.

So you know, presumably either they or their parents or their grandparents

would have immigrated And in those cultures more often than not.

Everybody's the same religion, or at least, one of a few, and in a

lot of their cultural identity is really closely tied to what they

believe to be true religiously.

And so we can kind of feel a little bit free asking about somebody's beliefs,

or even if somebody's uncomfortable with that, like even asking, like,

do you go to a mosque around here?

So you and I live near Charlotte, North Carolina, there's a predominantly.

Arab part of Charlotte, so it's not a predominantly Muslim

part of Charlotte, right?

Not all Arabs are Muslims and Not all Muslims are Arabs.

So there's a predominantly Arab part of Charlotte.

Well, I've gone there, you know intentionally just to sort of

pray through that neighborhood and look for opportunities and so

In

regards to like this step to talking to a guy who owns like a

Lebanese grocery store Just asking like, Hey, is there a mosque near

And

he goes, Oh yeah, it's right down here on the corner, you know?

And then I said, do you go there?

And he goes, Oh yeah, actually I do.

Or if he says no, you know, if somebody is sort of demonstrating to you through

their body language or their tone, like, I don't want to talk about this.

Okay.

Then don't talk about it.

But more often than not, they're going to go, Oh no, I go to the mosque over here.

Right.

So right away, like, okay, I know this person's a Muslim.

presumably if you did step one.

This isn't the first question you're asking them, right?

Like, Oh, Hey, I really love this store.

Like, maybe in this particular instance, there's a restaurant

connected to the store.

So I'm talking about the food.

I'm talking about how much I love the food and Hey, how long has this store

been here and man, I wish there was a place like this close to my house.

Cause I have to drive an hour to get here.

so it's quite natural then to say, well, Hey, tell me the most

important thing about you, And so, yeah, the idea of getting to God.

Is this second step.

So in, once again, to broaden this outside of just Muslims, it

can be used in any circumstances.

I spent a lot of time talking to, South Asian, people and

in the same notion is true.

Like I can say, well, Hey, I've traveled to India or I've traveled to Nepal or

something like that, you know, Like religion is really important there.

like, how do you practice that being in a small town like you and I live

Hindu temple and things like that?

and, you know, it's people listening, , I know this might seem like gymnastics,

but it's just like, look for a way to broach the subject, even if you do it.

Inversely, which is you bring up your faith It's a great way for someone to

bring up theirs if you bring up yours and so just approaching that subject and one

thing that shipman recommends is even just being as bold to say like are you hindu?

Are you muslim?

Are you buddhist?

Are you christian?

You know, uh, especially if that person's given um sort of leeway in that

conversation

Yeah.

They just haven't started Clamming up and shutting down as soon as

Exactly.

Yeah.

And then once again, going back to, that conviction that it's like, I am not

going to qualify or disqualify my hearer

on whether or not they're prepared to hear the gospel by how they have

been in conversation about things that aren't the gospel, you know?

So, ask yourself, what's the worst thing That will happen if I politely

and gently bring up spiritual matters in a conversation with somebody that

I've already connected with The worst thing that's going to happen is that

they express a disinterest maybe Very rarely they get upset about it, but

more often than not they're not going

to

Yeah.

Not if you do it

Exactly right and also too once again, you're interested and this is

where like, You know, and for somebody who's listening to an ATAP podcast, I

mean, you can say I'm really interested in religions Like I've used that

Thousands of times, you know what I mean?

Because I genuinely am like, hey, I'm a christian But i'm really

interested in learning about religions and I really prefer to learn about

religions from people who follow

them

And man, like people light up when I say that i'm not respecting that religion.

I'm not giving credence to it I'm just saying hey, I I

like to learn about religions.

And so

then you're not, you're not disrespecting Correct.

The religion either.

You're just Exactly.

Honestly saying, I wanna learn more about

Honestly saying, I want to learn about what you some form of fashion,

like, Hey, in your religion, what are you doing to get your sins forgiven?

And in my experience with Muslims, which I'm, I'm no expert in

sharing the gospel with Muslims.

I'm, much more experienced with South Asians, but in the past year, like

I've been doing it more intentionally.

I find that the reason why this method is very effective with Muslims

is because there is so much overlap between Islam and Christianity.

When Muhammad, began to claim that he was receiving this revelation

from a law, so much of it was based on the old and new Testament.

I've been in experiences both internationally and stateside, where this

step of getting to God and getting to these questions about sin is preceded by

usually them when they say that they're Muslim and I say, I'm a Christian.

Usually it goes something like, well, you know, it's basically the same thing.

Yeah.

we're very much alike, and I have no problem kind of saying, yeah,

there is a lot of similarities, we both believe in sin.

We both believe that inherently there's a problem with humanity.

And then the question of like, well, so what are you doing

to get your sins forgiven?

Digs that well, even deeper to get to the heart of really what

we're trying to get to with the

the gospel.

Yeah, and so that those are the three First three steps right is

make connection get to God and then What what about your sin?

Is that what is it?

Is that a third step

So yeah, so get to God is step two.

And get to lostness.

Is step three,

and if you're thinking about it as far as like these step one, step two, step

three, in getting to lostness, we want to address the question of sin because

if you ask somebody, well, what are you doing to get your sins forgiven?

They're going to tell you, right?

If they don't tell you then,

hypothesis here that we want to find the people that the Holy Spirit's preparing.

Scripture tells us like, Hey, if somebody doesn't receive the gospel, then just

kind of shake the dust off your move on.

in my experience, especially in the Islamic world, they're going

to tell you about the five pillars.

They're going to tell you about, giving to charity.

They're going to tell you about, Praying five times a day.

It's a lot.

And, the confession of faith and all of these things, being a good

father, being a good mother, so on.

And then.

We get to the any three, this is where the name comes from.

And this is step three, which is get to lostness.

Listen intently, listen,

, Charitably.

I guess you'd say, listen, not just to respond.

if they say something that doesn't make sense to you or say something

that I have never heard that before, like ask them a question.

But then at a certain point, the crux of the any three method is that.

After they have told you how they believe their sins are being forgiven.

You ask one of those three questions, whichever one's most appropriate

or your own iteration of it, which is so are your sins paid off yet?

Or when do you think your sins will be paid off?

Or especially if it is a Muslim, Hey, on judgment day, when you're

standing before a law, like, do you know that your debt is paid?

And in most cases, whether we're dealing with a Muslim or a Hindu or whatever,

if they have the agreement that.

There is sin and humanity is contending against sin, whatever that might

look like the Hindu concept of sin is completely and utterly different than

the Judeo Christian concept of sin.

But if it's there, then this question is most likely going

to be answered in the negative.

No, I don't know.

And in the Muslim, If they understand what the Quran teaches to be true about

sin and salvation and Allah and paradise, then they will say, no, I don't know.

I can't know because even Mohammed said he didn't.

so that's.

Where you get to the gospel step four, because then the beautiful

thing about like learning how to have this conversation around any

three is then you say, now here's the difference between our faiths.

very.

Helpful with a Muslim because you do without being

disrespectful and inflammatory.

You do want to say, no, we do not believe the same thing.

Like we don't believe the same thing about Jesus.

We don't believe the same thing about God.

So the way we live out our faith might sometimes look similar and we might

use the same names for the prophets.

The most operative things about our faith are quite different.

And so, so.

Like the way that Shipman puts it is, well, what I believe is different.

I know that my sins are forgiven.

It's not because I'm a good person.

Although I do try, I know my sins are forgiven because God himself has made

a way for our sins to be forgiven.

And this brings us into the, get to the gospel step.

So before we kind of talk about how to present the gospel in the any three model,

which there isn't just one universal way, but there's one way that I've found

helpful based off of what Shipman has found helpful, but to this point, right.

All this is, is just a conversation about

this person who's sitting with you and sin and what they believe about sin.

And if they do believe in sin, how are you going about seeing that problem

resolved?

And to this point, like my advice to anybody listening, who feels compelled

to try and have these conversations, it's like your job is to just listen.

It's not to argue.

I think especially with early on, if you have not used to these kinds of

conversations, and maybe it's an American culture thing as well, I don't know.

when you are talking about.

The thing that's most important to you in the world, and you know

that the person you're talking to disagrees with you fundamentally, we

can kind of put up some defenses and can cause us to stop listening to

what the person is saying and start Thinking about what we are going to say

next to try and prove that we're right and make it into more of an argument instead

of a, this is just a person that I'm trying to connect with at this, moment.

A lot of evangelism too, and just mission work in general, also comes down

to what we might call like theological triage, which is like understanding.

Which things are worth disagreeing about like openly, you know, and

if this conversation is happening, at a bar or in an elevator, right?

Like it's very rare that it's worth arguing about, right?

If you're going into this saying, okay, let's assume that Shipman and

these other missionaries are right.

I mean, they've led hundreds of thousands Muslims to the gospel.

Assuming that they're right, that it's most effective to just look

for people who it seemed like, what we would say is a green light.

then if somebody starts throwing up these defensive arguments, well, you're

a Christian, so you don't understand this and this and this like, Hey, if you

want to continue the conversation, go for But that's not what we're looking for.

Like we're not looking to win debates in, in, in even more so here in the

United States, where honestly, by some segments of the population, evangelism

is seen as somewhat offensive.

If somebody, when you start asking questions about, Hey,

what do you believe in sin?

If they start throwing up these defensive things, like it's okay.

Like this probably isn't the person today that you can continue that

lovingly and gently giving an answer for the hope that is within you.

But understand, okay, I'm probably not going to lead this person to Christ

today and

that's okay.

So now it becomes more about, Hey, I just want to show this person that

like Christians lovingly, but be looking for the person who maybe is

interested in having this conversation wants to have this conversation.

so everything to this point, is getting to.

Getting to lostness, getting to Jesus.

and the way that Shipman, and his team kind of formulated this is what

they call the, how they presented the gospel in this step, right?

So this get to the gospel step is what they call the first and last sacrifice.

And, I'm only going to go over it just like briefly.

If somebody is really interested in this week, like I said, Mike and I

will link to some resources that would go more in depth, but basically what

they do is they tell the story of what the first and last sacrifice.

And so, once again.

especially in regards to Muslims, it's effective because it starts

with Adam and so like I was recently, and this is, we told this story

in the Jesus and Isa episode.

I was recently in a Muslim country having a conversation like this with a

Muslim, who I had become friends with.

And I was able to start the conversation with like, well, Hey, for instance, like

you guys believe in Adam and Eve too.

And he's like, yes, of course.

And so the story of first and last sacrifice goes essentially

like, well, then you remember.

that when Adam and Eve sinned and sin entered into humanity,

the first act of charity that God did for them was he sacrificed,

a lamb to make clothes for them.

In that in clothing them, he covered their sin quite literally.

And then you kind of talk through the old Testament narrative of

showing that like over and over and over again, sin required some sort

of sacrifice on behalf of humanity.

in regards to non Muslims, this is actually still true.

Even though there's not that biblical overlap with a Hindu or maybe with

a Buddhist, but usually, especially within Hinduism, like there still

is the idea that they might call them Pooja's there's an offering.

Like when I go to the temple.

to give offering to the gods, like I'm bringing something with me.

And so even if you're telling this story to somebody who's not Muslim,

while they might not believe in Adam and Eve, you can tell the same

story and say, Hey, we see that.

In God's laying out, history with humanity is that, there always had to

be an offering for sin in my faith.

And can tell the story about, you know, Abraham and his son.

when we're talking to Muslims, it's usually not helpful to say,

Abraham and Isaac because they believe that it was Ishmael.

So we usually just say Abraham and his son.

So that we, once again, we kind of do theological triage.

We're sitting out here having this.

Conversation.

Like we don't want the conversation to become a debate about

whether it was Ishmael or Isaac,

they agree.

And we agree that Abraham was called to sacrifice his son at the last minute.

God saw his obedience, gave him this Ram to provide this covering again and

culminating in Jesus is that Jesus comes and I believe, right, I'm not looking

for this person's agreement at this point yet, but I'm just saying, Hey,

I believe that the scriptures tell us that Jesus came and his cousin, John

the Baptist, who was like the last great prophet before Jesus, when he saw him.

He yelled out and said, this is the lamb of God.

Who's come to take away the sin of the world.

And Jesus, in dying on the cross as sinless, and as the son of God,

and as God, was that last sacrifice that covered our sin, and then

he was resurrected from the dead.

And in doing so is still alive.

And he ascended to God and now he's actually, testifying on

his followers behalf that his sacrifice covers their sin.

And so the story of the first and last sacrifice ends with me

saying, so I actually believe that my sins can be forgiven now.

And actually it starts and ends with that.

So like, so when someone says.

know, this is how I believe that my sins are forgiven.

You can actually say, we'll see, this is where the difference is because

I believe that my sins already.

And I know that I'm going to spend eternity with God in paradise.

and it's actually like the times where I've used this in that way,

like that can actually provoke a lot of interest to somebody.

So for a Muslim.

who their entire life maybe has had an undercurrent of like, am I doing

enough or a Hindu who maybe their entire life has had an undercurrent

of like, how many lives am I going to live in the cycle of some sorrow or

rebirth and reincarnation when they hear you say, no, I have a confidence

that comes from outside of myself that My sin is forgiven and covered.

And at the end of my life, there is nothing else I have to do.

Like that actually can provoke a tremendous amount

of interest from a hearer.

And so getting to lostness, you tell this story and, you know, honestly,

you can tell any story, but I think that this is really effective.

This story, because it really encapsulates the gospel completely.

There are other methods, and we'll probably do episodes on other

ways to share the gospel, but I really liked this one, especially

with people who come from a Muslim background or Hindu background where.

There is a belief in sin.

If you're talking to a Buddhist, then it becomes a little bit more complex.

If you're talking to an atheist or somebody who's like you're religious,

sometimes this can be not necessarily the best way to go about it because

there isn't that shared belief in sin, but the story of the first and

last sacrifice can still be really effective because that's just the

gospel.

Once again, operating with Shipman's contention that We're going to try

and find the people, the Holy Spirit's leading us to, but then also operating.

And this is where I think American Christians really need

to hear this and receive it.

Is most people have not heard the gospel.

if you share the story tomorrow of the first and last sacrifice with

somebody, and you could even say to a person listening to this podcast,

Hey, I was listening to this Christian podcast the other day and this guy.

Shared this story about the gospel.

And he said, most people have not heard it this completely.

Can I tell you this story?

And you tell me if you've ever heard it, I bet sometimes people like,

Oh, you know, and I, I, Mike, you've probably heard this too, but like

people like, Oh, I grew up in church.

I know everything about Christianity.

You're a kid's

pastor.

You know what I mean?

Like, like hopefully the kids that

are growing up.

Yeah.

But let's just be real.

Like you're a kid's pastor.

I was a youth pastor for a long time.

I think I was a good youth

pastor.

Your sister was in my youth groups.

Like,

I hope I was a good youth pastor.

Like, but

I am routinely surprised at some of the students that I've had

who later on expressed to me.

That they didn't hear something that I know I said, or that, or even more so

like that, I'm like, well, I thought I said that, did I not, did I not explain

that?

And so, uh, yeah, if you go to the person in the cubicle next to you or

the office next to you or whatever and say, Hey, I want to tell you this story,

you tell me if you've ever heard it.

I,

bet you they're going to say in some form fashion.

Well, maybe I have, but I've never heard it like that.

And, uh, and yeah, and it's, it's, it's truly amazing.

And I think that, you know, I love that little tip.

It makes me think of.

Something similar I would do when I was working as a cabin director at a

summer camp, when the kids would tell me that they wanted to stay up past lights

out or curfew or something, or break some rule, I'd tell them, Guys, I can't

let you do that or I'll get in trouble.

You know, and it, which might not seem super connected, but it's like, It was

my way of showing them that I'm genuine.

I'm not just enforcing these rules to keep them from having fun.

Like it is true.

It is genuine and it puts it on somebody else.

And it's not me coming out and being like trying to make them do something.

It's like putting us on the same.

Level and in the same way your line of hey, I heard this Christian podcast

and they said that not many many people have actually heard this got the gospel.

Can I tell you the story and you tell me if you

heard it?

It's

like it's.

It takes away the, , I don't know, awkwardness or the, this, you feel

this pressure to try to come across as genuine, and, but you feel like you're

being disingenuous when you're, you know that the point of this conversation is

you're hoping to convert this person or

convince them of

that, Or you're worried that like they're gonna be like,

oh, so you think I'm a sinner?

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

But it puts it on a whole

nother

oh man level.

Oh.

It's like, oh,

is the situation.

The, you can't fake.

Yeah.

i'll, I'll tell, I'll, I mean, I'll tell you what, maybe we could we'll

clip this and put it on Instagram and send it out in the email.

Maybe this is the big thought experiment that we do, like Blame me.

You know what I mean?

like, Hey, I heard this go and read the story.

Go read first and last sacrifice.

If you tell this story to somebody and mind you, they don't need to be a

Muslim, if you're stripping it down to just the first and last sacrifice,

like they don't need to be Muslim.

If they go, I've heard that story.

You can go see, I knew, I knew that guy was wrong, you know,

but what's happened here.

Okay.

That person has heard the gospel.

Right.

And.

I don't have enough money to make a bet with every single person

who listens to this podcast.

but I mean, I would be willing to bet money, that you would see some

pretty cool spiritual conversations and that you might, like I

said, you might see people like.

Interested in following Christ or even, and this was taking it back to

Shipman, like the hypothesis that like, there are some people who are

ready to receive and follow Christ now.

And by introducing the gospel to them in this way.

You're giving them that opportunity.

The last step in any three is get to a decision and kind of his

suggested like bow to put on it is asking just like simple questions

like, Hey, that makes sense.

Doesn't it?

And, do you believe that, , and what he's trying to get at is, Hey, give people

the opportunity to follow Christ now.

Some people are going to go, yeah, that makes sense, but dot, dot, dot.

I don't believe this and this and this.

Okay.

That's fine.

we can have conversations about that.

When we talked about Jesus and Isa a couple episodes ago, like we talked about

how the next step if they expressed an interest or an agreement, but there was

a, but it's like, well, Hey, the answer to that question, I think is in the gospel.

Like, would you want to sit down and read that?

But there might be people who are like, Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Yeah.

And

I want, I want what you have.

And then it's like, well, Hey, listen,

the

scriptures say that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is

Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you're saved.

Like, Do you believe that?

And you know, maybe, and this is where discipleship starts I tell

people, evangelism is actually easier than we think it is.

Discipleship is much harder than we think it

is because this is going to require like multiple conversations.

Right.

Um, but, but of course too, this is a person you met on the

street in a country that you're not from or something like that.

Hey, if the worst thing that happens is they accept the gospel and then never

see you again, like Got to work that out,

you know,

but, um, but yeah, so give him the opportunity to make that decision.

I tell people all the time, give people the opportunity to say no to the gospel.

Like most people who don't follow Christ, it's not that they said no to him.

It's that they were never given the opportunity to say yes.

And so, there you kind of have like that big picture of any three like these

five steps If you're interested in it, you can read all these resources and

all that stuff But for everybody even if you're listening to this and you're

like, I don't know like this sounds kind of like bull I don't know that it's

that simple this and this and this it isn't that simple I mean conversations

are hard, but it's not as hard as you

think.

it

yeah.

And Jeremy's already given you permission to blame him for

a hundred percent.

a hundred percent.

I

listen to this podcast.

I'm part trying to participate in this community and this guy wants me to.

Share the gospel.

'cause he says that people haven't heard it can, this might feel

awkward, but can we, can I share

the story with you,

Well, and what's funny is like, I use that, I use that

kind of thing all the time.

And, and it is genuine, like, you know, because like coming from

academia, I use that all the time.

I go, Hey, listen, I read this book.

yeah.

And I, I read this, you know, thing about Islam or Hinduism.

let me ask you a couple of questions and just, you tell me what you And

like the answer to that is always, yes.

You know what I

I mean?

Oh

yeah, you want,

you want to know more about me?

Yeah, exactly.

You know?

And I said, well, what do you think about this?

What do you think about that?

Oh, okay.

That's interesting.

You know, and then, you know, you pivot that to, well, let me tell you, this is

what I was thinking when I read that.

, and there is a sort of like deferred authority.

And I do think.

That in the American context, that is one of the things that keeps

people from sharing the gospel is they, they don't feel like they are a

worthy emissary to share the gospel.

Like, I don't know enough or my life's not put together enough or

well, what if they question me like, Hey, I know you're a sinner too.

And so we just don't do it.

And so.

If, if that helps you at all to say like, Oh, I was listening to this podcast or

I was reading this book or I heard this thing and I just wanted to see what you

thought of That's better than nothing.

That's much better than nothing.

I think I've said it too on the podcast, but like I've been thinking

about this quote a lot and I need to figure out if it was moody or Spurgeon.

I can't remember, but I think it was Spurgeon.

But in talking about evangelism, he was challenged.

Probably he gave these, he gave these huge altar calls like in hundreds

or thousands of people would come and inevitably he was questioned.

Like, do you really think that's the most effective way to do this?

You know, and his response, and it might be apocryphal, I'm going to find

out

was something along the lines of, I like my way of doing it

better than your way of not doing

And I think.

The church in the United States is full of every evangelism idea with very little

suggestion on how to improve it or, or what's the, what's your preferred way.

So I, if I come across somebody who doesn't like any

three, But they're doing it.

I go, Hey man, that's cool.

Like, I'm good with that.

Like your way of doing it is great as long as doing it.

If you're not doing it, you should absolutely not criticize

it.

You know what I mean?

Um, and so like, just, yeah, try Like I don't, I don't want to see, I don't

want to sound like a flippant, you know

what I mean?

Like give Jesus a try.

That's not what I'm saying, but like, like try this.

I a hundred percent will guarantee it will go better than you think it does.

It is, connect, make a connection, just talk to the person, get to know

them, get to God somehow, find out what they believe about God, and then

I know the next one is about sin, what

is

it?

Get to lostness.

Yeah, so you're broaching the subject on sin in some capacity.

Yes.

Get to lostness.

Then the

gospel.

What

is

it?

the

gospel,

Get to the gospel

and

then decision.

Get to a decision and give the, yeah.

Put the ball in their court where they have to either, yeah.

Say yes

what do you think of

this if say, I think that's stupid.

do you think is stupid about it?

You know what I mean?

Like, don't argue with that.

Well, I don't think it's stupid.

You know, it's like, no, like, well, what do you think is stupid?

I think it's stupid.

You know, somebody who's going to say, I think it's dumb to think that Jesus could

have been Oh, why do you think Right.

And then, right.

Like, this is, see, this is where I get really excited.

Yeah.

Like, cause I'm like, Oh, you're giving me permission to have a conversation with

you about like something really spiritual.

I go, listen, I'm going to blow your mind.

God does stuff.

Miracles all the time.

this is what I believe.

I believe this whole world is full of this merging of the

natural and the supernatural.

I actually don't think that the two merge.

I think that there, you know what I mean?

And so it's if there is an obstacle, don't stop.

You know what I mean?

Just ask, well, why do you think that Frank Turek, pretty well known

apologist, he, he's actually been on the podcast a long time ago.

He he's really well known for sort of formulating these questions of well,

how did you come to that conclusion?

What made you, what made you think that?

You

know,

and I, I find that those questions are really valuable because a lot

of people have these like operative beliefs and they don't have a reason.

They just don't like what you have to say, you know?

So I mean like, Oh, I don't believe it because of this.

Well, what makes you say that, And what you might find is like, they

don't know what makes them say that.

And so it's something that you can engage them on, you know, but yeah,

it'll go better than you think it

And, something I want to clarify a little bit too, we've talked, uh, for

most of this episode we've been talking about Muslims and reaching Islam with

any theory, because that was kind of what it was originally designed for, and it

works really well for Islam because we know that there is overlap in what Islam

believes about God and about people.

Sin, that we have sin, and that's where we can, we can

get at least to get to lostness

in this process um, easily.

But it also will work with people outside of Islam.

It's, it's gonna be very useful, like you just said, most people in

America have not heard the gospel.

Especially in, we're in the Bible Belt, you know, they're, same

deal, where they're all at least gonna say, They believe in God,

for the most part, most people, no, everybody, yeah.

Um, so use it, you

don't have to use it

Yeah.

And as we, as, as in ATAP, we're, we're, we've, we've really begun in the last

year or two to focus almost exclusively on the States because the United States

is far less reached than we think it is.

And, you know, there, there are populations in the United States

that are overwhelmingly, Arab.

So like places like Detroit, Michigan, or the suburbs around it, if you live

in a big city, there is a neighborhood, multiple neighborhoods in your city

that are predominantly Arab and not that all Arabs are Muslim, but

the predominant religion in that neighborhood is going to be Islam.

And so, um, So yes, this can be effective, uh, certainly overseas.

It was developed overseas, but as we at ATAP seek to explore the darkest

places and least Reached peoples in the United States to engage them with

the gospel, um, this is not a tool that can be used exclusively overseas.

In fact, it needs to be used more in the United States.

And as Mike said, it doesn't need to be just used with Muslims.

I, I, I know it was developed for Muslims.

I know that it's most effective for Muslims.

But it can certainly be tweaked and modified, but then at the core of it,

what, like what we've referred to a couple of times now is like this sort

of this open ended challenge to just tell somebody the story of the first and

last sacrifice, which is just telling somebody the gospel, um, like that story.

Can make sense to anybody.

It doesn't need to be a Muslim.

And so, or, or somebody who agrees that sin is a problem, the gospel is beautiful.

It's the most beautiful thing has ever, ever kind of like

taken sight of taking hold of.

And so we want to operate on this conviction that we see Shipman and

his team operated on to develop this method is, is that, um, Holy

spirit is preparing somebody in your neighborhood right now to hear gospel.

And more than likely the that you share the gospel with might not have ever And

if you operate on those two things, then a lot of those fears and anxieties and

obstacles that we use to keep us from sharing the gospel begin to And what

becomes more important is I want as many people as possible to hear the gospel.

And I'm going to operate on an understanding that tells me God

has made a way for it to happen.

I don't need to contrive this situation.

I don't need to like, like be friends with this for three years before I can share

the

gospel.

somebody might accept Christ today, if we operate on those

convictions, amazing things will

things happen.

Yeah, absolutely.

You don't have to

force it

to happen.

You just get to participate in what God's

doing.

exactly.