Where Is God In My Suffering?

[00:00:02] Hey, Better Days family. Welcome to Better Days podcast season nine.

[00:00:07] This season of the Better Days podcast, we're going to talk about different aspects of mental

[00:00:12] health and suffering. Throughout these episodes, we're going to lay a theological framework for

[00:00:16] each topic, flesh out misunderstandings that we sometimes hold, and offer practical advice

[00:00:22] and tips to help you along in your journey through mental health and suffering. We're

[00:00:28] going to be joined by various friends that I'm so glad are sharing their expertise and advice

[00:00:34] on these important and valuable conversations. If you're new to Better Days, we're a non-profit

[00:00:41] seeking to bring hope, awareness, and education to all things mental health and suffering.

[00:00:46] We help churches, people, and leaders understand the intersection between mental health and

[00:00:51] suffering and following Jesus. For more content from Better Days or to support our work, check

[00:00:56] out our website, betterdaysfmy.co. Let's jump into this week's episode. We are back today

[00:01:07] and we are talking about God's presence in suffering or another way to put this is God's

[00:01:13] help in suffering. In psychology and therapy, they talk about attunement. In pastoral care,

[00:01:20] we talk about the ministry of presence. There's this verse in second Corinthians one, three through

[00:01:25] five that says this, praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of

[00:01:31] compassion and the God of all comfort who comforts us in our troubles so that we can comfort those in

[00:01:40] any trouble with the comfort we ourselves receive from God. I love this picture. First of all,

[00:01:46] that God is a God of compassion and comfort. Think about that when you're walking through

[00:01:51] the most painful circumstances of life, that God is not a God who's angry at you, detached from you,

[00:01:59] distant. God is a God of compassion and comfort. And because of that, He deeply cares about our

[00:02:05] pain. He deeply cares about our suffering. I think there's this idea that when we're going

[00:02:10] through a really hard time, we're emotionally worn down physically, our bodies are worn down from

[00:02:16] pain and suffering, that somehow God removes Himself from us. And I think that couldn't be

[00:02:25] further from the truth. The truth is as you read through the scriptures or you experience life,

[00:02:31] sometimes we need to just say instead of saying God has removed Himself from us,

[00:02:36] we're just tired. We are worn down. This has been a long, painful, hard season of life.

[00:02:44] And even in the midst of maybe being emotionally numb or worn down, mentally exhausted,

[00:02:50] our bodies are exhausted, we need to just remind ourselves that God is not a God distant.

[00:02:59] God is a God present in suffering. And the beautiful thing about this whole truth is

[00:03:08] we receive comfort from God in our pain so that we can then extend comfort to others in their pain.

[00:03:15] We have heaven down comfort and then person to person comfort. This is a beautiful truth.

[00:03:22] Jason, what do you think when you think about this reality of God in the midst of suffering?

[00:03:26] Yeah, it is literally what God does. When He saw us suffering because of our sin, what did He do?

[00:03:32] He came to be present with us in the person of Jesus Christ. When Jesus Christ left, He sent His

[00:03:38] Holy Spirit who is known as the Comforter to be with us. So it is what God does. He specializes in

[00:03:45] comforting those that are going through a season of suffering. And I think really our human experience

[00:03:50] should parallel what Jesus did for us as well. So as He has been present with us, then we have

[00:03:55] to be present with other people. One of the difficult things when somebody is going through

[00:03:58] something hard is for us to know exactly what to say. All of us have experienced that where we're

[00:04:03] like, I just don't know what to say. I don't know how to say something to encourage them. And really

[00:04:10] what you find out through counseling, one of the first things that we learned is there's something

[00:04:15] about being present with people, even if you're not talking, that offers them a level of comfort

[00:04:20] that they wouldn't experience if you weren't there. Yeah, and along those lines, it's being present in

[00:04:27] situations on behalf of people who are not, they're too much in the throes of their pain to even attend

[00:04:35] to different areas. So I want to make two points about that. The first point is to your point,

[00:04:41] Wes, about God being present, even though people may be at the point where they don't feel that

[00:04:47] they're like, God, where are you? It's that in the midst of all of this pain, when you're suffering,

[00:04:53] your brain ends up getting tunnel vision, which means you're not able to have a view,

[00:04:58] a broader view of what's happening around you. And with that or above you, where the Lord is,

[00:05:05] could be showing up or not could be, but is showing up in your life in ways to be present

[00:05:11] with you, to hold you. But you are so much in pain that it feels like he's not there and nobody's

[00:05:17] there. And so there's that piece of it. The next piece of it is the being present, how people can

[00:05:24] be present with you and how if you're not saying anything, your actions are actually the best

[00:05:30] communication you can give. And some of the things I could think of that would be really helpful is

[00:05:35] like when people are hospitalized long-term, if they're in an apartment, are you checking to see

[00:05:41] if their rent is getting paid for the next month? What are they coming back home to?

[00:05:44] Or what are they, if they're already home, what is it that they're not attending to that would

[00:05:51] take up too much energy that you could fill in? So you could be present stepping into circumstances

[00:05:56] on their behalf. It could be very powerful. Yeah, yeah. I think when I think of this,

[00:06:04] obviously Jason, what you said is so valuable that the greatest storyline of presence in suffering

[00:06:12] is the fact that Jesus came, He left heaven. He came to this earth. He was incarnationally

[00:06:19] embodied. He took on human form and He didn't do that just to interact with human suffering,

[00:06:28] like the story of Lazarus. He showed up, He wept. That was an intense word in Greek

[00:06:36] for like, He was weeping, crying out, feeling the pain and acknowledging the pain in presence of

[00:06:45] a family that had lost their brother, somebody that He was close to. That's a beautiful picture.

[00:06:52] But even more profound than that is the fact that He came not just to interact with human pain

[00:06:57] and experience it Himself, but like, He literally suffered.

[00:07:01] Yeah.

[00:07:03] Being present with us in embodied form as a human being so that He could heal us and help us in our

[00:07:10] suffering, so that He can be present in a way that He sympathizes with our weaknesses, Hebrew says.

[00:07:16] Like, He understands what we're going through from a literal experiential point of view. And that's

[00:07:24] amazing to me because whatever you go through in your life, whatever you go through in your life,

[00:07:30] whatever I go through in my life, I don't just follow a Savior who understands pain,

[00:07:39] comprehends pain. I follow a Savior who experienced pain on every level, just like me,

[00:07:48] but even more intensified than me. And I think that is a powerful thing. I think when somebody

[00:07:54] shows up in your life and you're going through something really difficult and they've been

[00:07:59] through it, there's a different wisdom and interaction because they know what's good and

[00:08:06] they know what's bad. They know what's helpful. They know what's unhelpful. And they know what

[00:08:10] somebody needs most of the time. Sometimes people say unhelpful things or do unhelpful things,

[00:08:15] but most of the time there's just this, there's this wisdom that is developed and wired into us

[00:08:22] when we've gone through something where we walk alongside of somebody else. We're like, oh,

[00:08:27] I get it. Like, I don't even need to say much, but I know the help that you need and I know the

[00:08:34] presence that you need in the midst of what you're going through. And isn't that maybe why,

[00:08:40] Stephanie, people that have suffered in a similar form, like let's say a parent loses a child. They

[00:08:48] start a ministry for parents who've lost children and then all of a sudden, all of these parents

[00:08:54] who've lost children are attracted to them because they share the same experience. What would you

[00:08:59] call that? Yeah, this is that communal piece of it, that altruistic act where even in the midst

[00:09:06] of your pain, when you feel like you can't do anything for anybody, you being able to hold

[00:09:12] that experience with somebody, be present with them and understand them in an intimate way.

[00:09:19] Take that act of you, even in your pain, connecting with somebody else is an altruistic act that's

[00:09:25] actually healthy for you. It's healing you. So in the act of doing that, it is healing you through

[00:09:31] your own pain. It gives meaning. We talked about meaning before. It gives you meaning even in your

[00:09:36] pain. It doesn't make that less terrible. It doesn't make your pain necessarily go away,

[00:09:41] but it at least gives your pain a place to go. That's really good. Gives your pain a place to go.

[00:09:48] I've never heard that before. So let's just sit on that for a second. Write that phrase down.

[00:09:53] It gives your pain a place to go. And sometimes we need that in life. Instead of just holding it

[00:09:59] within ourselves, there's ways that our pain can interact with the world and humans and meaning.

[00:10:06] Helping other people. And this is true. This is what God is saying here, that we are meant

[00:10:13] to be agents of healing and help. We're meant to be agents of presence. I think of the story of

[00:10:19] Job. That's a great Old Testament story. Job's there. He has this domino effect of tragedy in

[00:10:26] his life. And he was amazing. He was the most righteous person on earth, loved God. And he was

[00:10:32] probably the wealthiest person on earth. That's a great combination right there.

[00:10:35] Righteous and wealthy. Steve Jobs and...

[00:10:41] Billy Graham.

[00:10:41] Billy Graham, all in one. That's a combo. And then he goes through these tragic events,

[00:10:48] loses everything. His wife says, curse God and die. His friends show up. Friends travel,

[00:10:53] show up to his house. Probably has a bougie house on the ocean, driving the Lamborghini and Porsches

[00:11:00] and all that. Old Testament style, he had horses and cattle.

[00:11:04] The best buggies.

[00:11:05] The best buggies. So he's there, his friends show up. They say nothing, the Bible says,

[00:11:12] nothing, and they just comfort him. And that's for two verses. And then for 30 chapters,

[00:11:19] they say too much.

[00:11:20] The worst things, yeah.

[00:11:22] And it just sends him into these thoughts and wrestlings. And he's being judged, like there's

[00:11:32] something underneath the surface. There's something wrong with you. You must be doing

[00:11:35] something wrong, which just shows you pain and suffering, none of us are immune to it.

[00:11:43] You could be super follower of Jesus, or you could be really successful business owner,

[00:11:49] entrepreneur. This is a human reality, nobody's immune. Nobody can evade or circumvent human

[00:11:56] suffering. So his friends, they talk and they just like, they do everything wrong. They're

[00:12:00] philosophizing, they're theologizing, they're trying to put this into some theological construct

[00:12:07] about God. And at the end of that, Job said some things that God says, you spoke some things

[00:12:12] incorrect, but he rebukes, God rebukes Job's friends. They did not tell the truth about God.

[00:12:19] And I'm like, that's who we don't wanna be. That's the presence that you don't need. You

[00:12:25] don't need somebody spiritualizing and telling you you're doing something wrong and having this

[00:12:32] theology that puts blame on you for whatever you're going through. And I think that's just a

[00:12:38] false idea about suffering is like, if you're really spiritual, then you're not gonna suffer.

[00:12:43] If you're really successful, then you're not gonna suffer. Well, then why did Jesus suffer?

[00:12:48] Nobody's more spiritual and successful than Jesus, and he suffered. So don't be like Job's

[00:12:54] friends. Be like Job's friends for two verses. Don't be like Job's friends for like 30 chapters.

[00:12:59] Yeah.

[00:13:00] There's a question I learned from another seasoned therapist in therapy, and it's wait.

[00:13:07] The acronym is wait. It's why am I talking? And so when you're with somebody who's suffering and

[00:13:13] you're thinking, okay, I think I'm gonna say this. Wait, pause for an extended period of time.

[00:13:20] When I do it in therapy, because silence is very healing. So as a therapist, sometimes you just

[00:13:25] wanna talk and be quiet. So I'll tell myself, wait. And every time I tell myself, wait, I extend it 30

[00:13:30] seconds. Wait, wait. And I find that while I am waiting, the silence opens up the space for people

[00:13:39] to open up and say even more deep stuff, because they're feeling safer and safer in the silence

[00:13:45] with me.

[00:13:46] Can I ask you a question about... Say that phrase again. Silence leads to healing? What did you say?

[00:13:52] Silence?

[00:13:53] They're feeling safer in the silence.

[00:13:54] Okay, safety in the silence. Why is it that we're so prone to respond and not give space for silence?

[00:14:03] It makes us uncomfortable. Silence feels like an inaction. And we get into our own heads and we

[00:14:10] worry about what the other person is thinking, that the person is waiting for us to say or do

[00:14:15] something. And rarely is that it. The person is actually sitting in their own pain while being

[00:14:22] aware that we're sitting there with them. And that's where the healing is. That's the profound

[00:14:27] human connection.

[00:14:28] So learn to be comfortable in the silence.

[00:14:31] I mean, part of counselor training is literally learning to not say anything.

[00:14:35] And that's huge. When you can be comfortable in silence, I think what it does is a couple of

[00:14:40] things. As a therapist, when you're silent, it gives you an opportunity to pray for the person

[00:14:44] too as well. And the spirit can do the work in them that you can't do. And it gives them

[00:14:50] opportunity to process the stuff we're saying. But silence is... I don't want to say a weapon

[00:14:55] because it sounds bad, but it's a tool that you can use in your toolkit to really open things up

[00:14:59] for a person while you're being present with them. Our tendency is to want to do, and we think

[00:15:05] being present isn't doing. But being present is huge. You're taking time out of your schedule to

[00:15:11] be with someone, to sit with someone. It's remarkable how that can have an impact on them.

[00:15:17] They recognize that.

[00:15:18] And people never forget it.

[00:15:20] No.

[00:15:20] Like when you're going through your worst time in life and somebody that you love shows up,

[00:15:27] like you never forget that.

[00:15:29] Yeah. I remember when our son was three and he was hospitalized and we had friends, people...

[00:15:35] Some of them weren't even necessarily close friends because we just knew from church who

[00:15:38] would just... One woman, she just worked across the street and she just stopped by and just sat

[00:15:43] in a hospital room with us. And it was just like, I just couldn't get past that. This woman took time

[00:15:49] in her day, left her what she's doing, came just to be here. She thought about us and it

[00:15:56] moved her to action in that way. And I don't even remember if she said anything other than,

[00:16:02] hi, I don't know what she said, but that in and of itself spoke volumes to me.

[00:16:06] And I'll never forget her for it. I'll never forget that moment.

[00:16:09] In 2017, I had walked through four years that were just unimaginably difficult.

[00:16:17] And I didn't realize at the time, but in retrospect, I look back and I was like,

[00:16:23] oh, I think I was really, really depressed. And I remember sitting

[00:16:28] in bed and thinking, I just have no passion to get up. Like for the first time in my life,

[00:16:38] no oomph, no passion, no drive. I'm very driven, self-motivated person.

[00:16:44] And I started praying. I was like, God, this has just been really hard and I'm just worn down,

[00:16:51] exhausted. Nothing seems clear. Everything's obscure, murky. Like this has just been such

[00:16:59] a long, hard season. And I remember this as etched into my brain and my soul. I remember God

[00:17:09] I remember God just sensing his presence in a way that I've never sensed in my life.

[00:17:17] And not in a weird way, but you just feel God encourage you as you're just there with him.

[00:17:26] God said three things. He said, Wesley, I love you. There is hope. And I'm with you.

[00:17:34] And that was one of the most powerful moments in my life. I would never want to go through

[00:17:43] repeat those four years experience. And it took me at least a year to feel well again.

[00:17:51] I didn't realize how depressed and worn down I was, but that moment in time,

[00:17:59] I knew God in a way that I'd never known him before. And I think there's a lot of people

[00:18:05] that have those stories. Like you've gone through such a hard moment or experience

[00:18:11] and you just sense the presence of God, like in such a tangible, powerful, real way.

[00:18:18] And that becomes like an anchor for your life. Like you always remember that. The Bible says

[00:18:22] to remember all the time, like the past can help us in the present to navigate those difficult

[00:18:29] moments in life and to keep our anchor and our foundation. And so I guess every time that I've

[00:18:36] gone through something hard post that experience, I always have this reminder of like, remember

[00:18:46] what God did for you then. And he's doing the same for you now. And I just wanna encourage

[00:18:51] anybody who's listening. I know you're listening to this podcast either because you're like,

[00:18:55] this is important subject in our culture or I wanna help somebody, but there's a lot of people

[00:18:59] that listen to this podcast. That's you. Like you're in that position. You've been going through

[00:19:04] this season. And I just want you to just sit and invite God into what you're going through

[00:19:11] and allow his presence to help you. There's this Psalm. This is actually my favorite verse in the

[00:19:18] Bible. Psalm 46 one, God is an ever present help in time of need. It's not God is a sometimes

[00:19:27] present help, like ever present. Like this is such an important truth, not only to like memorize,

[00:19:35] but to internalize whenever we're going through something really hard, like the presence of God

[00:19:41] shows up in ways that we need. And there's actually a story I just was thinking about with Paul.

[00:19:51] Yeah. So Paul has this thorn in the flesh. Is that the story you're referring to?

[00:19:54] Yeah. He has this thorn in the flesh. We're not told if it's a sin or habit or whatever it may be,

[00:19:59] it's just called a thorn in the flesh. And he goes to God and he asked, can you remove this from me?

[00:20:03] Can you take this from me? And God says, no, but my grace will be sufficient for you. In other words,

[00:20:08] God says, no, I won't take away the thing that's causing you harm or the sin that's in your life

[00:20:12] or whatever it may be. It's ambiguous in nature. But he says, my grace will be sufficient for you.

[00:20:18] In other words, my presence will be sufficient for you. What I'm going to give you that you

[00:20:22] don't deserve, which is me, is going to be sufficient for you. And I think there are

[00:20:26] oftentimes we pray that God would take things out of our lives. And sometimes He does and sometimes

[00:20:32] He doesn't. But when He doesn't, the thing that God is saying is that I have enough grace to give

[00:20:36] you to help sustain you through what you're going through. That your situation may not change,

[00:20:41] but having me with you should be enough for you. But I just want to go back just in a practical

[00:20:47] sense. You talked about how you were going through a difficult time and you felt God's presence like

[00:20:50] never before. What if somebody is watching, they don't even know what that means? How do you

[00:20:55] live that out? How do you invite God's presence in your life? How do you sense God is there with

[00:20:59] you?

[00:20:59] Yeah. I think there's moments in life where you're forced into silence, so to speak.

[00:21:05] Like you just don't know how to navigate from the place where you're at. It's like you feel stuck,

[00:21:13] you're immobilized. And that's where I was. And I guess like in a practical way,

[00:21:21] sometimes sitting silently before God and just saying, God, I need you. Like I need you in this

[00:21:27] moment. I need you to show up. I need you to be present. I need your help. I need your strength.

[00:21:33] I need your sustaining grace. And then just sit there, you know, like quietly before God and

[00:21:40] experience like his presence. Just like you would sit next to a human being and not say anything

[00:21:48] because there's a comfort. Like in a person's presence, like you're going through a really

[00:21:54] hard time. You've got people close to you in your life and them showing up and being present

[00:22:00] and silent, that's meaningful. It's meaningful with God. And then sometimes God speaks words of

[00:22:06] encouragement into our soul. Anchor truce in the midst of hard circumstances. Or maybe he reminds

[00:22:11] you of a verse that like you take hold of, like I'm an ever-present help in time of need. So,

[00:22:16] I think just sitting quietly, asking God to enter in and to be tangibly present in whatever way that

[00:22:24] you need in the midst of your pain, I think you can do that. And maybe you don't know Jesus.

[00:22:28] Like pain oftentimes is a place of reflection that is incomparable to any other point of

[00:22:38] reflection in your life. Where you're like, oh, I realize that life without God is way too hard

[00:22:46] and suffering without God is way too hard. And I realize I need God in my life. And you just

[00:22:51] invite him into your life and you believe in Jesus Christ. Yeah. I think there's two questions you can

[00:22:57] ask too. So, imagine you're a believer and you have had God speak to you in the past and you were

[00:23:02] like, it hasn't happened in a long time. I think there's two questions to ask yourself. One, is

[00:23:06] there a place that I'm at where I sense God's presence in the past? So for me, I remember 2015,

[00:23:15] 16 going through a tough time thinking about even getting out of ministry in some ways. And I had to

[00:23:20] go speak at a retreat in the mountains and I love city life. I don't like mountain life, but while I

[00:23:26] was in those mountains, I sensed God's presence and God speak to me. And so there've been several

[00:23:31] times throughout my life where I've gone to the mountains and sensed the presence of God in my

[00:23:35] life. And it isn't the natural place that I would go to, but that's where I seem to really sense

[00:23:41] God's presence when I'm going through a difficult time. The other one is, is there a person that

[00:23:45] helps connect me to God? So yes, sometimes getting away quietly by yourself is valuable, but I also

[00:23:53] think that God can speak to us in community. And is there a person that you've seen in your life

[00:23:58] who has frequently helped connect you to God? Is there a place and is there a person when you

[00:24:02] reflect back on your life and going back to those things are just opportunities to seek God's presence

[00:24:06] as well. That's really helpful, Jason. And asking God for that, when you can't think of that, to

[00:24:11] send the right people to you and to give you the discernment to shut off the voices that are not

[00:24:17] helpful to you. And you need God's strength to do that on your behalf, because you may be feeling

[00:24:24] too weak to be able to do that work. I've seen in my life, I went through a time period of

[00:24:32] great depression. I was really struggling. It was just before I was thinking about applying to a

[00:24:36] doctorate program and I just didn't wanna do anything and I couldn't sleep. I was going through

[00:24:42] many, many days of sleep deprivation. I couldn't fall asleep. There's multiple times where I noticed

[00:24:46] God showed up in a tangible way. And I remember laying in the bed and just knowing that I'm not

[00:24:52] gonna sleep again. And I just said, God, just give me tonight. If you could just, I can't take another

[00:25:01] night of watching hour after hour pass. And I felt a warmth that I've never felt before come over me

[00:25:09] and I knocked out for the whole night. And then I remember another time thinking about applying to

[00:25:16] the doctorate program and I had pushed it off so far because I just didn't have the energy. It was

[00:25:21] the that day that I had to submit, I woke up that morning, that day I had to submit the application

[00:25:26] to meet the deadline. And I just looked in the mirror and I was like, this is crazy. I shouldn't

[00:25:31] be doing this. I'm not even in a place. And I looked in the mirror and I asked God, is this

[00:25:38] even worth my time? And I felt from my heart, I felt God say, do it. And that whole day,

[00:25:47] I just got all the rec letters, churned out an essay and everything and dropped it off at the

[00:25:53] postal office at 4 49 p.m. before it closed. And look how many people you're helping. And it's just,

[00:26:01] but it was the strength of God in that moment. And I will say this, some people could be hearing

[00:26:06] your story, my story, Jay's story, and maybe like, I want to feel like I'm not feeling it.

[00:26:11] I'm not feeling like that. Do not dismiss the powerful work that God is doing that may appear

[00:26:18] subtle to you right now. Yes, that's really, really good. It's not always going to be a warm

[00:26:24] feeling or an impression in your heart. It could be the absence of something that was there that

[00:26:30] you didn't realize that was causing a lot of disruption. It could be a relief that comes in,

[00:26:36] in some form that it's just subtle. It's powerful enough that's getting you through, but it's subtle

[00:26:42] enough that you don't notice it. It's like taking a vitamin. We take these supplements, some of us,

[00:26:47] on a regular basis, but I don't feel a superpower as soon as I take my vitamin C, but I know that

[00:26:53] it's doing work in my body and it's getting me through and it's sustaining me. So good.

[00:26:58] Even that desire to sense the presence of God is God at work in you. Philippians 2.13 says,

[00:27:06] for God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases Him.

[00:27:11] So even the desire to sense God's presence is a desire that comes from Him giving it to you.

[00:27:16] And so, that's the beginning of the process of you being able to sense the presence of God.

[00:27:20] This is such an important discussion and I love these stories too. I think stories really help

[00:27:25] people and connect people to shared experiences. I would love to end with each one of us giving

[00:27:33] one practical tip of how to be present in a wise way in suffering, and you can give multiple if

[00:27:39] you want. So Jason, why don't you start? If you think of someone that is going through a hard

[00:27:44] time and they cross your mind, call them or connect with them. If you think, and I've gotten

[00:27:51] to that place as I've gotten older, if I think of somebody who I normally wouldn't think of,

[00:27:55] I instantly call them and just say, hi, I was thinking about you today and just let it go

[00:27:59] from there. That's really good. Yeah. I would say be resourceful, fill in the resources.

[00:28:07] So think about in their lives, what are things that areas that they need that there is a need

[00:28:14] to attend to, but maybe they don't have the capacity to do and offer to help in that.

[00:28:20] Don't give people, instead of giving them, let me not say don't, instead of having them to decide

[00:28:25] and think through what you can do for them, offer them options of what you can do for them and allow

[00:28:31] them to pick that. That's really good. That's like kindness, like love and action. That's really

[00:28:36] good. I would say, and I don't mean to sound trite, but like love people in the messiness

[00:28:45] and disruptive nature of human suffering. Don't judge them. Like when you go through deep,

[00:28:52] deep pain in life, it is so messy. It's disorienting, it's confusing, it disrupts your

[00:28:59] life. Just love them. Love them in the messiness of pain. And that love that you extend to them by

[00:29:09] being present and not judging them will speak volumes and will give them strength to keep going.

[00:29:17] We find strength, not just in our relationship with God, we find strength in community with people

[00:29:23] and we all need that. So love people in their pain. What a great conversation. Thank you guys.

[00:29:30] Let's continue to do this and share the hope that there's better days ahead.

[00:29:34] Thank you for joining us today. We would love for you to help in spreading the word about Better

[00:29:40] Days Podcast so that we can bring hope and help to people navigating mental health challenges or

[00:29:46] suffering of any kind. We would love if you let a friend know who may be walking through a hard

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[00:29:58] You can find more resources at betterdaysfmy.co. Join us for another episode next week.

[00:30:07] There are better days ahead.