Why Does God Allow Suffering?

[00:00:02] Hey, Better Days family. Welcome to Better Days podcast season nine.

[00:00:07] This season of the Better Days podcast, we're going to talk about different aspects of mental

[00:00:12] health and suffering. Throughout these episodes, we're going to lay a theological framework for

[00:00:16] each topic, flesh out misunderstandings that we sometimes hold, and offer practical advice

[00:00:22] and tips to help you along in your journey through mental health and suffering. We're

[00:00:28] going to be joined by various friends that I'm so glad are sharing their expertise and advice

[00:00:34] on these important and valuable conversations. If you're new to Better Days, we're a non-profit

[00:00:41] seeking to bring hope, awareness, and education to all things mental health and suffering.

[00:00:46] We help churches, people, and leaders understand the intersection between mental health and

[00:00:51] suffering and following Jesus. For more content from Better Days or to support our work, check

[00:00:56] out our website, betterdaysfmy.co. Let's jump into this week's episode. I am here with three

[00:01:06] of the best. Dominic Doan, scholar, getting his PhD at Oxford, lead pastor, Bayside Santa Rosa,

[00:01:16] Mark Clark, absolute brilliant thinker, prolific author, some of the best books.

[00:01:22] Tell us the titles of your book.

[00:01:24] Oh yeah, now you bring it up. So I have a book called The Problem of God and The Problem of

[00:01:28] Jesus and coming out with a third one in February of next year. We're still working on a title.

[00:01:32] The Problem of Humans.

[00:01:34] Yes, we're going to be talking a lot about that. So yeah.

[00:01:36] Amazing.

[00:01:37] Thanks for having me, man. This is great. Better Days, let's go.

[00:01:39] Global lead pastor at Bayside.

[00:01:41] One of the global pastors around here at Bayside.

[00:01:43] Amazing.

[00:01:44] Great crew.

[00:01:44] Jason Kane, you introduce yourself.

[00:01:46] Hey, Jason Kane, you have nothing nice to say about me. I appreciate that.

[00:01:48] No, the best of the best. They see you all the time.

[00:01:50] Say the best for last.

[00:01:51] Jason Kane, the husband of Dr. Stephanie Kane.

[00:01:53] Yeah, there you go. I like that.

[00:01:55] Lead pastor at Bayside Blue Oaks. Church is thriving.

[00:01:58] Also has a master's degree in clinical mental health counseling, just brilliant thinker.

[00:02:03] And you guys see him all the time on Better Days podcast. So today we are talking about

[00:02:09] one of the greatest questions in history. If God exists, why does He allow suffering?

[00:02:15] And I think opening up this question, obviously, like there's a theological element to this,

[00:02:19] but there's also a pastoral, I'm in the thick of this. Life is hard, painful.

[00:02:26] We have people in our life that are connected to this reality right now.

[00:02:30] And I would love for us to have a conversation both on the theological end and on the pastoral

[00:02:35] end. And I think framing it like, I think all of us understanding the narrative of the Bible

[00:02:41] around human suffering is so important. When God first created the world, I think six to eight

[00:02:48] times, forgot the exact number. When God created the world, is it seven? It's in between. God said,

[00:02:55] all that I've created is good. Every time He created something, His summation, His conclusion

[00:03:01] was, it is good, tov. Which is this idea that everything was working within the harmony of

[00:03:08] His intention, His design, His nature. And so, when you think about the world that God created

[00:03:15] and intended, void of human suffering, how would you frame that?

[00:03:18] Matthew Yeah, I think we have to define good,

[00:03:21] because we often think of good meaning perfect. That clearly wasn't perfect because there was a

[00:03:26] snake. Where'd the snake come from? I've raised a whole other set of questions. But I think one

[00:03:32] thing is clear, like it was God's original design to have a world that was full of tov, that was

[00:03:38] full of beauty and flourishing. That's how I interpret it. You would know way better than me

[00:03:41] when the Hebrew, but it's a world of beauty. It's a world that reflects God's heart, a world

[00:03:47] where male and female are to live an intimate relationship with Him. There's the tree of life,

[00:03:52] which they never ate of. And then you go to revelation to your point of, it's not the world

[00:03:56] God intended, but it is the world that God will one day restore and renew. You see a garden that's

[00:04:01] recreated. You see a tree right in the middle, the tree of life. All things are passed away. All

[00:04:07] things are made new. So I think we have to start with that premise of what God designed and what

[00:04:13] God's intent is. The end of the story, we're living somewhere in between the two gardens.

[00:04:19] We're somewhere between Genesis and Revelation. And thus we live in this world of sorrow and chaos

[00:04:24] and war and bloodshed and heartache and depression and anxiety and doubt, all these things.

[00:04:29] Yeah. When I think of good, I think all the things you think of, but also say like good

[00:04:35] is the very nature of God. So when God created a good world, it was intended to be a reflection of

[00:04:41] Him, which is void of evil and suffering and ultimately flourishing in every way. Every

[00:04:48] life form like living in harmony with the very nature of God. And I think that's just the

[00:04:53] beautiful world that we long for. When we suffer, we realize this is something amiss. Like there's

[00:05:01] something wrong. There's something in this that feels uncomfortable, that isn't aligned with how

[00:05:07] our soul longs for flourishing, like longs for harmony, longs for symmetry with a design and

[00:05:15] a designer. And so I think that beauty and flourishing and the nature of God are all

[00:05:23] wrapped up in that idea of good. Yeah.

[00:05:27] Yeah. To that point about having something in us that longs, it's often... This is one of the...

[00:05:33] It's called the rock of atheism, the question of evil equals there is no God. But philosophically,

[00:05:39] as a lot of people have pointed out, it's the fact that you don't like the way the world is.

[00:05:46] If all there was was this world, there was no transcendent, authoritative, objective beauty,

[00:05:53] truth, absoluteness. You would never think that because you wouldn't have anything to compare

[00:05:58] your experience with. You would never say the universe is wrong. The universe is crooked.

[00:06:04] The universe has something called suffering. It would just be the way nature is. But the fact

[00:06:09] that you say evil means there is no God, it begs the question of where you got the category of evil.

[00:06:16] So the philosophical point is as hard as this question is, which we'll talk about,

[00:06:21] the fact that we don't like the way things are is a great evidence for the existence of God,

[00:06:28] not an evidence against him. Now, how he's engaged in the evil and suffering of the world and how...

[00:06:34] Is he present? Is he distant? Does he want things to happen? Does he allow things to happen? All

[00:06:39] of that is still something we wrestle with and struggle with and legitimately so. But I think

[00:06:44] just starting by going, the fact that... To your point about the longing, the fact that you have

[00:06:49] a longing, the fact that things are not the way... The universe is not the way it's supposed

[00:06:54] to be. It's like, what are you comparing the supposed to with? And the minute you do that,

[00:07:00] it begs the question, maybe there is something that transcends this natural world.

[00:07:04] Matthew In the words of Steinbeck,

[00:07:07] we're east of Eden. I think Tolkien actually said something along this line that something in us

[00:07:13] won't keep longing for Eden. And that is true whether Christian, atheist, Buddhist, anyone

[00:07:20] has this desire for the world to be renewed and restored. And to your point, which is such a good

[00:07:27] point and one that I've been walking through the last couple of days, because we just came from a

[00:07:30] pastor's meeting. And I shared a story from our church where an atheist came to church for the

[00:07:37] first time on Sunday. And I asked him what brought him. He's like, well, I'm in a very difficult

[00:07:42] situation at home. And he kept using the word evil. He's like, there's something happening right?

[00:07:46] I was a family member. And he said, the only way I know how to describe what they're doing and how

[00:07:51] they're acting is the word evil. And he said, I've never had a category for that before, because I'm

[00:07:56] an atheist. Thus, there is no such thing as evil. There are things that make you uncomfortable,

[00:08:00] but there really isn't an evil. But he's like, I'm actually facing evil, which is making me ask the

[00:08:05] question, is there a good? And I think that is a really refreshing way actually to look at this

[00:08:12] question, because we often frame it as this is the ultimate question against Christianity. And it is

[00:08:16] the hardest question by far, but it also, the sword cuts both ways where the fact that we see

[00:08:23] suffering points to a deeper longing to get back in the garden. Every atheist longs for that too.

[00:08:29] That's why there's this rallying call in our culture right now for things to be set right,

[00:08:35] because we see things that are wrong. And my argument would be Christianity is the thing that

[00:08:41] gives us an explanation for those desires.

[00:08:43] Pete So good. I love what you said about,

[00:08:46] if there's evil, there has to be the opposite. There has to be good. So then what is that good?

[00:08:51] Right? That's the question that all of us have to answer. That's the longing for something better.

[00:08:56] Pete Yeah. It's like the conversation

[00:08:58] about transcendence or like, to use a different example, I was reading super conservative

[00:09:04] Baptist upbringing pastor, and he opens his book about family. And he gives this illustration. He

[00:09:09] says, if you would have asked me when I was a kid, what my favorite holiday was, I would have told you

[00:09:15] it was Christmas and Easter, but I'd be lying because my real favorite holiday was Halloween.

[00:09:19] And he said, in our culture growing up as a conservative Baptist, Halloween was not something

[00:09:24] that you celebrate. It was like bad. But the reason I liked it is because if we really believe

[00:09:28] the world is full of evil, and there's a night where the veil between this evil world and mind

[00:09:35] thins, and there really is things trying to hurt me, isn't this something we should be talking about?

[00:09:40] And then there's these two Christian brothers who make movies, The Conjuring. I don't know if you've

[00:09:44] ever seen The Conjuring. I'm not a horror movie guy, but there's this movie called The Conjuring.

[00:09:48] It's super scary. And they're Christians. And people are like, why would you as a Christian

[00:09:52] make a horror movie? And their response is, why would we make anything else? We wanna make stories

[00:09:57] that are gonna make people go, is there evil? Are there spirits? Versus, just make a movie about,

[00:10:05] we're on a roller coaster. Why would you wanna distract people from the real questions? Which

[00:10:12] is if there's evil, we better figure out whether we're spiritual beings or not. Fascinating that

[00:10:17] it's like all of this raises the question of our spirituality in such an interesting way.

[00:10:23] So, to go further into this story, God places Adam and Eve in the garden. Everything is good

[00:10:29] and flourishing and beautiful. And He gives them an opportunity. He says, everything in the garden

[00:10:38] you can eat, you can enjoy, but this one thing, if you eat of it, you shall surely die. The knowledge

[00:10:44] of good and evil. And a lot of people think the knowledge there is just like, comprehending,

[00:10:49] understanding. It's the experiential experience of understanding good and evil. You're gonna feel it.

[00:10:56] You're gonna understand it, but you're gonna feel it experientially in your life.

[00:11:01] Why would God give that opportunity to make that choice? That's a lot of people's question. Like,

[00:11:08] why even place the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden?

[00:11:13] I have an idea. I don't know whether this is actually the answer,

[00:11:19] but I think I heard this a few years ago and it always stuck in the back of my mind. I don't

[00:11:23] know if I'll explain it properly, but basically what that does is it creates a scenario where

[00:11:30] there can still be obedience to God in a universe where there's no sin. Does that make sense? So,

[00:11:38] so like, there's the opportunity for them to sin, but as long... The years that go by where they

[00:11:44] don't pick the fruit and they don't, there's still something called obedience where they chose

[00:11:50] to not do the thing God told them, but they never sinned yet, but there's still obedience. Where if

[00:11:55] you remove that, it's just a world where there's no obedience anymore. So that might be a reason

[00:12:01] to put it there. I don't really know a reason beyond that.

[00:12:04] Dominic?

[00:12:06] I 100% agree with that. And I think part of it is just the nature of the way the world is made

[00:12:10] because maybe this is rewinding a little bit, but I think it's an interesting point. Yes,

[00:12:15] when God created the world, it was good. I don't necessarily think perfect, but it was good.

[00:12:21] And we know it wasn't perfect in the sense of... And Augustine points this out. God,

[00:12:26] by virtue of creating, he's not creating a duplicate of himself, right? He's creating

[00:12:32] something in a sense that's less than him. And maybe somehow, somewhere in that space,

[00:12:38] there is room for evil to flourish. I think Karl Barth called it the das Nicht, the night to

[00:12:44] flourish. It's the absence, right? So what if in that absence...

[00:12:51] Das Nicht! Das ist nicht so gut!

[00:12:53] You gotta say it that way too. But what if in that absence, there is this space that's created

[00:12:59] where now we're given opportunity to obey and it's much more authentic because we're actually

[00:13:05] presented with an option. An opportunity to disobey.

[00:13:08] And exactly. And I think that's an element of personhood. What does it mean to be a human

[00:13:14] being? We are volitional beings. God is a volitional being. So our opportunity to make

[00:13:19] a decision, do we want to love and worship and follow God's design for human flourishing? Or

[00:13:26] do we want to try another path? Maybe our own path. And I think that what's interesting,

[00:13:32] we use this term boundary in our culture today, but essentially God put a boundary. Like he said,

[00:13:38] enjoy all of this, but this will lead to consequences. You shall surely die.

[00:13:44] And a lot of people read that and they think, die means physical death. I think die means

[00:13:51] so much more than physical death. I think the very foundation of you shall surely die is,

[00:13:56] you're going to be disconnected from me, my authority, my design, my intent for your

[00:14:02] flourishing. There's going to be a separation of relationship and there's going to be a separation

[00:14:07] of relationship to what I really created this world to be. A place of life and relationship

[00:14:14] and flourishing as I intended it. So, post that decision, you know, you have a spiritual

[00:14:21] temptation comes into the scene and there's an opportunity to obey God. No, I'm not going to eat.

[00:14:29] God said we will surely die. Satan cast doubt on God's word, God's person, and they eat. Well,

[00:14:38] what's up with that? Like, this spiritual thing that comes into play in this story and then

[00:14:44] now they're choosing to do what's opposite of God. So, I think that's another layer to the story

[00:14:48] that people have a lot of questions about. Matthew Oh, there's so many layers. I mean,

[00:14:52] you could get into a theology of eating. It's interesting how-

[00:14:55] Pete I don't know if we're going to enter into that, but-

[00:14:57] Matthew So wait, I think this is actually an

[00:15:01] interesting thought. So, through the act of eating, we see death and suffering enter the world. Where

[00:15:07] is that redeemed? It's at the table. Through the act of eating, we see redemption and healing.

[00:15:12] So, it's like Jesus, in a sense, is recreating what the enemy had destroyed. We also see the

[00:15:16] presence of evil at the table with Judas, the betrayer. Satan entered him. We also see the

[00:15:22] presence of evil in the garden. And in both cases, it was Eucharist, the breaking of God himself

[00:15:29] in this beautiful act of redemption that's bringing about renewal. So, there's creation itself is a

[00:15:36] sacramental act. The Eucharist is a sacramental act that will one day see its flourishing in the

[00:15:42] renewal of all things. Why they ate is a whole other set of questions. But I agree that-

[00:15:49] Pete But why even that possibility?

[00:15:50] Matthew Why even the possibility? Because I think

[00:15:52] it's to that point of boundaries. I mean, they have boundaries not only with what they couldn't

[00:15:56] eat, they had geographic boundaries. They had boundaries with their knowledge, things they

[00:16:00] didn't even know. They had boundaries in their understanding of how the world works. God makes

[00:16:06] beautiful world, sets them in a certain boundary. But I think at the same time makes them deeply,

[00:16:11] deeply curious to wonder what's on the other side of these boundaries. That's why be fruitful,

[00:16:16] multiply, name the animals, like all these things which would invite one to explore because our

[00:16:22] faith is not a static faith. It's to your point, Mark. We're growing, we're learning, we're evolving,

[00:16:27] we're adapting, we're changing, we're wondering, okay, how can our relationship with God flourish?

[00:16:32] Flourish is such an organic term. You said before the podcast something about gardening,

[00:16:37] right? When it comes to the problem of evil and suffering, I think so many times it's in

[00:16:43] the brokenness that we begin to see the newness of life and God's dream for our soul in the midst

[00:16:51] of this is flourishing. That's why the Bible begins Genesis 2, God breathed on Adam and Eve

[00:16:57] and they became living souls. And that word living actually means to flourish. It's this

[00:17:01] beautiful word picture of a flower that's blossoming and blooming. It's alive, like we're

[00:17:07] seeing all around us right now in spring. So I think this is part of, in a sense, this redemptive

[00:17:15] journey, but we're still in this place between two gardens, but we advocate for the healing.

[00:17:21] We actually have motivation to set the world right rather than just acceptance of, oh,

[00:17:25] this is how it is, deal with it. Yeah. We have like this human bent to break the boundaries.

[00:17:31] There was a recent study, I don't know if you guys have heard this, and I might botch it, but here's

[00:17:35] like the summation of it. So they did a bunch of studies of kids who grew up in homes with no

[00:17:40] boundaries, no rules, no guidance versus kids who grew up in homes with boundaries, rules, guidance,

[00:17:47] intentionality. And the kids who grew up in homes where there were rules and boundaries in a healthy

[00:17:53] way ended up doing much better later on in life than those who grew up with no boundaries. And they

[00:18:01] felt better, you know, on a mental health well-being side. And I think that's really interesting, like

[00:18:06] how God sets this into play and He says, hey, you know, here's like, there's so much, there's a

[00:18:15] multitude of things that they got to enjoy, but just one thing, just one boundary that's not good for

[00:18:20] you because I care about you. And we have this bent to say, no, I want to, I'm curious. I wanna

[00:18:27] see what's on the other side, like what is that? Well, I think there are, for them in that moment,

[00:18:35] it's clear, it's I wanna be like God. I'm not happy with the limitations, so I'm gonna, I wanna

[00:18:42] go, maybe if I'm like... It's the reason we sin. Why do we sin? Because we don't trust that God is

[00:18:49] really gonna give us the pleasure and delight if we don't in the long run. So we take it now and we

[00:18:54] get the quick hit, and we're not happy with the nature of things. We're not happy that God set up

[00:19:01] boundaries and things that, you know, GK Chesterton said, before you go and take a fence down,

[00:19:04] you might wanna ask the question why it was put up in the first place. And you think about that

[00:19:07] culturally, we go and do these things because we think it's what's going to be best. Being like

[00:19:14] knowledge of good and evil, that sounds good. That sounds like some knowledge I should have.

[00:19:20] Maybe he's not right in telling me I shouldn't have it. And so I'll take it, and we do it now.

[00:19:26] We take shiny things, and we take, we do this lust sin and this money sin, and we do it all

[00:19:32] because we're not really sure his advice was right that we shouldn't. Let's take it. It'll be a good

[00:19:37] thing for me. And ultimately, they weren't happy being human. They wanted to be God, and we do it

[00:19:44] every day. Yeah. Think about that idea as a parent. You're a parent, you've got twins.

[00:19:51] Yeah. I think one of the other things about suffering that we think about is if God knew

[00:19:55] we were gonna suffer so much, why did he create us? If there's gonna be so much suffering. Well,

[00:19:59] the thing as a parent that you know is I'm gonna create these little human beings. I know they're

[00:20:04] gonna experience suffering in their life, but I believe I have the capacity and the power that

[00:20:08] any suffering they experience, I can help redeem it or help them overcome it as a father. And I

[00:20:14] know my limitations, that I have limitations and there are things that I can and cannot do,

[00:20:18] but I'm still gonna create my children because I believe that I can give them what's best. Yes,

[00:20:22] they're gonna experience suffering, but they're also gonna experience the other side of suffering,

[00:20:26] which is joy and happiness and hope. And they find that in Jesus. So I think when we think about

[00:20:32] suffering, yes, suffering is terrible. And I think God created us in spite of knowing that we're

[00:20:37] gonna suffer, but then ultimately God knows that he can redeem the suffering. He's not limited.

[00:20:43] He's like, okay, fine. You guys are gonna sin. I'm still gonna create you because I know that

[00:20:49] I can do something to fix the issue. Like we were preaching right now in Acts, we're in chapter two

[00:20:55] and it's verse 23 says this, this man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and fore

[00:21:03] knowledge. So he's talking about Jesus here and he's saying God had a deliberate plan in place.

[00:21:07] He had foreknowledge of exactly what was gonna happen yet he created him. Why? Because he knew

[00:21:12] he had the power to raise him up from the dead. So when suffering God is like, that is not the end

[00:21:17] of the story. I have redemptive value and the ability to redeem anything. So even in a fallen

[00:21:22] world, I'm still gonna get the ultimate glory and they're still gonna be okay on the other end.

[00:21:27] Yeah. That's so good Jason.

[00:21:29] To build on that from the movie world, there's a movie called Arrival, brilliant movie, sci-fi

[00:21:35] movie. And it has a plot that I've never seen play out in movies before. And I'll take it into

[00:21:42] room sometimes and I'll read it. Wow, this is the thing. There is a spoiler alert for the next

[00:21:46] minute. But I'll raise this question almost and it's almost divided down the line of men and women,

[00:21:52] but what you just said there made me think of it. So basically the premise of the movie is,

[00:21:59] well, I won't even tell you, but the point of the final conclusion is, would you have a child

[00:22:06] if you knew that at 12 or 13 years old, that kid was gonna die? That becomes the premise of the

[00:22:14] movie. For knowledge, you're gonna lose the kid, but you get those 12 years. So I've asked rooms

[00:22:23] of people the question, if you knew your 12 years gone, would you do it? Almost down gender lines,

[00:22:30] men are like, no, I am not doing it. And women go, yeah, I want those 12 years of love.

[00:22:39] It's better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all. It's that thesis.

[00:22:44] And that's exactly what I almost, when you were talking to rewire the movie,

[00:22:48] like this is God creating in the cost benefit ratio is it's worth it. All the pain and suffering,

[00:22:56] all the stuff they're gonna do, it's all worth it for the glory on the other side of it or even

[00:23:01] the glory moments during it. So anyway. I love that part.

[00:23:04] Especially if you know that you can fix it. That scenario in that movie is very morbid

[00:23:08] because I can't do anything. Yes, I get those 12 years, but the rest of my life is miserable

[00:23:11] because I lost my child. Exactly. That's why I'm a no.

[00:23:14] Yeah, that's why I'm an absolute no. But if you think of the same concept, all of us have either,

[00:23:19] maybe you've purchased a house or you bought a vehicle. I know when I purchase a house,

[00:23:23] it's gonna have problems. But because I know I can repair them, I still buy the house.

[00:23:28] I think that God is the same way. I'm gonna create them. There's gonna be fallen and broken,

[00:23:32] but I can fix it. And I mean, that perspective just makes me have confidence in God that

[00:23:37] resurrection is possible. Yeah, that's really good. Great story

[00:23:43] that kind of parallels what Jason's talking about. I think a couple of highlights. One,

[00:23:48] God does this, places them in the garden, says not to eat of this tree because of obedience.

[00:23:55] The willingness and the opportunity to choose obedience to God. I think secondly,

[00:24:01] there's this idea that love is not love without the freedom to choose. So we're not robots.

[00:24:07] Right? God didn't put us in the garden. He's like, do a robot thing.

[00:24:10] Meep, meep, meep.

[00:24:12] Yeah. We're not...

[00:24:12] That was just our call.

[00:24:14] That was good. That was pretty good.

[00:24:14] There's no prep for that.

[00:24:16] It's great. I spent a week thinking about...

[00:24:19] Sounded like a pig.

[00:24:21] So we're not robots. We have the freedom to choose to love and worship God. We're not

[00:24:28] robotically loving and worshiping God. We're not robotically teaching the Bible, making disciples.

[00:24:34] We get to choose to do that. And that's a beautiful thing in a relationship.

[00:24:39] It's that whole thing that we heard growing up. You don't stand at the altar with your spouse.

[00:24:43] Remember this? We heard this over and over again, and put a gun to their head and say,

[00:24:48] you have to marry me. That's just so foreign and shocking to us to even hear that because

[00:24:55] nobody does that unless you've heard of somebody.

[00:24:57] What did you code? You guys grew up in a cult?

[00:24:59] Remember that thing that Pastor Tony used to say?

[00:25:02] No, no, no. We go back.

[00:25:03] Marry me!

[00:25:04] We've heard all of these illustrations. So I think those are highlights. And then another one,

[00:25:09] just to bring to this to surface what you guys are saying, God sees a greater good. So

[00:25:15] post-Genesis 3, permeation of human suffering throughout history. And God doesn't hide from

[00:25:22] this reality. The Bible vividly describes human suffering and honestly describes it.

[00:25:29] I know in your book, by the way, such a good book, Problem of God, you talk about

[00:25:34] how the Bible doesn't shy away from it and how the Bible just brings it to the surface.

[00:25:39] In an honest, open way. Talk to us about that.

[00:25:43] Yeah. I mean, they say that maybe the first, the oldest book we have in the Bible is Job.

[00:25:48] So it's the whole question of theodicy and suffering and evil. That's the first thing

[00:25:53] that the Bible wants to deal with. It's not like we get 14 chapters of Eden and then we get the

[00:26:02] sin and we're like, oh snap, you get two chapters and then sin and brokenness. So the Bible is just

[00:26:07] so real. Every prophet you're in, every Psalm you're in, it's like the world sucks. Why does,

[00:26:12] I love the Psalms that are like, I'm righteous. I love you. That guy over there is a total scumbag

[00:26:19] and his life is flourishing and mine sucks. We all know when that person, even this week,

[00:26:28] just to be dead honest, my wife had a, they found a couple of things where they were like, hey,

[00:26:32] you have cancer? We brought the kids into it. And praise God, it wasn't the case. But it's like

[00:26:39] our brains are karmic almost by nature. We're like, well, righteous equals no disease.

[00:26:46] Unrighteous, they should be poor and miserable and the people following God's way should be

[00:26:51] flourishing. And then half the Psalms are like, well, that's not the way it is. The world is so

[00:26:58] random. Ecclesiastes is like, this guy cheats on his wife. He's a total loser. And he's rich

[00:27:05] and killing it. And I'm like the most, and my life sucks and I got disease. Like what is going

[00:27:11] on in the universe? I love the Bible's reality, the ability to just be gritty and go, I just hate

[00:27:19] how the world is. I hate my enemies. I want to pound their teeth against the rocks and punch

[00:27:23] their face. And like, this is the Bible just being real. And I just think that's a beautiful thing

[00:27:27] in a culture that wants authenticity. You find it in the Bible versus elsewhere. So.

[00:27:34] Yeah, people are honest about their struggles. They're not like couching it with cliche

[00:27:38] Christian language. There's none of that. It's like, this sucks. I'm wrestling with you. I'm

[00:27:43] angry God. Like this is really hard and I don't understand that. So is the option Genesis 3 starts

[00:27:51] God's like, oh, here comes human sin. I know what it's gonna do. Let's just wipe out human history.

[00:27:56] Or does God say, let human history unravel. And in the midst of it, like a parent to a child,

[00:28:03] I know that there's gonna be a greater good of redemption. I know that I can pursue human beings,

[00:28:12] bring them back into harmony with me of relationship, help them to begin to form

[00:28:18] their life around my design for the image of God and flourishing and community and friendship and

[00:28:24] all this stuff. I think God looks at that plan B and plan B is let's not wipe this out. Let's

[00:28:32] allow it to unfold. And I have greater good, even though there is present pain. And I think that's

[00:28:38] the storyline of scripture. Like we all suffer. And like you said, Job, Job was the most righteous

[00:28:44] person on the face of the earth. And he was the most successful. Like think of that. He's like

[00:28:49] the business person, the Steve Jobs. He's the person with all the money, the Elon Musk.

[00:28:56] And he is a righteous man. And that does not mean that any of us, because we're righteous or we're

[00:29:02] successful can evade human suffering. It touches all of our lives.

[00:29:05] Pete Yeah, it's indiscriminate, right?

[00:29:07] Jared It's indiscriminate.

[00:29:07] Pete Everybody experiences suffering, no matter what their background is. Some people to

[00:29:11] more of a degree than others, but it is a universal human experience of suffering

[00:29:16] because we live in a fallen world. So everybody's gonna have to deal with it at some point.

[00:29:20] At some point, someone you know will die. It's a guarantee. And it's a tough reality. But I think

[00:29:25] that's where, again, we bring Jesus into the equation. And when you're talking to people,

[00:29:29] because as a pastor, you're gonna talk to people who experience suffering, you let them know that

[00:29:33] redemption is found in Christ. That is where the hope is that we have.

[00:29:37] Jared Yeah.

[00:29:38] And it's amazing that God designs his plan. He's the three mile an hour God, right? So

[00:29:46] we think he should have just solved it. He's got this slow roll.

[00:29:50] Pete Oh yeah.

[00:29:51] Jared He's got Noah doing his thing. And then the Joshua, I want you to go kill all those

[00:29:56] penguins and take a piece of dirt. And that's gonna be important dirt. What? And then the Exodus and

[00:30:03] this is the prophets, Israel, Jesus. It's like, what is all this? And then for Jesus,

[00:30:08] the whole center of the center of the center of the story to be the man of suffering and sorrows

[00:30:14] for suffering to be like... Eragon Moltman talks a lot about this and some of his theology is wonky,

[00:30:21] but he talks about how God is... He's like the... He's the God who identifies even when he shows

[00:30:26] up to Moses, he's like, I heard the cries of my people. I'm the God who suffers. And that's

[00:30:32] actually core. This is what Moltman says, which I think is so interesting. He doesn't say like

[00:30:36] suffering is kind of something God does. It's something he is. It's actually not just part

[00:30:43] of his kind of modus operandi. It's actually when he explains who he is suffering, this is who he

[00:30:50] is. When Jesus Christ shows up, he's the suffering one. And so God has this like, this empathy with

[00:30:57] the world where he's showing up, he's feeling the pain constantly. He's with everybody all the time.

[00:31:02] And it's just amazing that our most tragic, awful, most felt experience is the thing God uses.

[00:31:11] And this is why Christianity is so universal. Everybody suffers to your point and Jesus himself

[00:31:17] suffered. It's like, he didn't just give us some rules and if we follow them one day,

[00:31:21] we get to go to heaven when we die. Suffering and pain is the center of the center of the whole story.

[00:31:25] There's no better solution than that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he is the man of sorrows.

[00:31:32] I'm so glad he said that because Jesus defined and really exemplify what it means to walk through

[00:31:38] seasons of heartache and pain. I was reading John 11 earlier last week and thinking through

[00:31:42] resurrection and all that for Easter and what Jesus did at the tomb, right? He knew how the

[00:31:49] story ended. He knew that resurrection would come. I'm the resurrection in the life. Do you believe

[00:31:53] this? But he still wept. He was still messed up inside because of the grief, the pain, lament,

[00:31:59] his friends who are broken. He's devastated in that moment. And I think capturing that as we

[00:32:05] walk through suffering, we're not just saying here's a cat poster. It's all going to end

[00:32:08] wonderfully. You know, be happy. We're saying, no, this really stinks. Like this is horrific.

[00:32:14] What you're going through is hard. And I think what makes suffering so painful is not just like,

[00:32:18] oh yeah, someday I believe in heaven, all that. It's why isn't God showing up right now?

[00:32:24] Why is he allowing this horrific thing to happen to this person in my life? And he's not intervening.

[00:32:30] He's not answering my prayers or the silence of God. I mean, that's a huge one because oftentimes

[00:32:36] pain strikes us in a sudden way. The silence of God is a glacial slow type of gnawing pain.

[00:32:43] And that's the difficulty. And yet we find there, Maltman, what you just shared, Mark,

[00:32:49] God meets us at the tomb. He weeps with us, not in a powerless kind of weakness like,

[00:32:57] oh, I don't know how this is going to end. I hope this works out good. But in an empathy and I've

[00:33:03] been there, I know what you're feeling. And somehow, some way, the price tag of suffering

[00:33:10] is worth the love that we encounter in the end. Yeah. I got to drop a name of a theologian just

[00:33:17] so I can sound like I'm supposed to be here. I don't know where I'm going.

[00:33:20] Because these two are dropping names that nobody's ever heard.

[00:33:23] Maltman. Who are these people anyway? I went to seminary, we didn't read those books. So there's

[00:33:31] a guy, his name is Os Guinness. You can look him up. He's Scottish. So that's close to German.

[00:33:36] And I was listening to him talk and he was giving a talk and he was saying,

[00:33:39] oftentimes when we experience suffering, we think to ourselves, things should not be this way.

[00:33:44] God, why are you allowing this to happen? It should not be this way. And God looks at us and says,

[00:33:49] it's not the way I intended it. And so there's this thing where we experience where God comes

[00:33:53] alongside us to demonstrate like, hey, I'm with you. And in your tears and sorrow, no,

[00:33:58] this is not what I intended. But this is what we got. And this is how I'll fix it. So suffering,

[00:34:03] God coming alongside of us and entering into the story, I think also demonstrates

[00:34:08] his love and care and compassion for us. Because imagine Adam and Eve sin and they're in the

[00:34:13] garden and there's no redemption. It's just constant sorrow forever is excruciating.

[00:34:22] Pete And if you read Genesis 3, there was

[00:34:23] redemption immediately. God pursues them. They hide from God. They hide from each other. They

[00:34:28] try to placate their guilt and shame and anxiety with coverings. And then God says, no, let me make

[00:34:34] you a covering that is more durable. That was the first picture of atonement, forgiveness,

[00:34:41] redemption, the pursuit and nature of God when we literally do what's opposite that he told us.

[00:34:48] And so I think that's a beautiful picture. But Mark, I want to say, I love that you pointed out

[00:34:52] that suffering is the center of the story, which is so interesting for us as we wrestle through our

[00:34:58] human suffering to realize Jesus is the ultimate climax of all the promises of the entire Bible.

[00:35:08] Everything from Genesis on points to him, the longings of the human heart, longing for Jesus,

[00:35:15] and everything from Revelation back is looking back to him and what he did and what he's going

[00:35:21] to do moving forward. And- Mark I'm sorry, go ahead. Finish your thought.

[00:35:25] And the center of that story is that God suffered for us, that God saw our suffering and he is a man

[00:35:33] of sorrows and acquainted with grief. Like that's a part of his very nature. He was willing to come

[00:35:38] down and suffer for us so that he could ultimately save us from suffering. To me, that's the ultimate

[00:35:44] answer. Like I want to worship and serve a God who looks at my brokenness and humanity and pain

[00:35:52] and hardship and says, I'm not going to stay in heaven. Like I'm not going to stay in like the

[00:35:58] place of opulence and glory and like beauty. I'm going to come to earth where everything is broken

[00:36:05] and I'm going to experience brokenness alongside of you. And I'm going in the most beautiful,

[00:36:11] wise, redemptive way. Talk about God being all knowing. He knew that that suffering would be

[00:36:18] the very means by which he would rescue all of us and place us into the second garden in Revelation

[00:36:24] 21, 22. So I just love that. Jason? Let me just pose a question that I often get around this.

[00:36:28] I'll pose it to y'all. I actually have an answer for it too that I would love to give. So I'm really

[00:36:32] asking myself the question, but I want to hear what you guys have to say. So, you know, in this

[00:36:36] second garden, how do we know that sin won't enter in again and we get the same story? Like suffering

[00:36:43] comes back. How do we know that in the second garden, we don't need to be redeemed? What stops

[00:36:50] people from sinning then that didn't stop Adam and Eve? Yeah. Well, I think it's definitively said

[00:36:56] there in Revelation 21, I think it's verse three or four, that there's going to be no more pain

[00:37:03] and sorrow and so on and so forth. So I think it's a definitive like statement in the end of

[00:37:09] the story when God renews the heaven and earth or makes it brand new again.

[00:37:14] Pete Yeah, that's such a hard question because behind that is, is there free will?

[00:37:19] Jonathan Right.

[00:37:20] Pete So...

[00:37:20] Jonathan But my answer to that Dominic would be all the people that enter the kingdom of God had

[00:37:25] already chosen to follow and worship Jesus.

[00:37:28] Pete So you're saying there comes a point in the journey where we lock in our chosenness?

[00:37:32] Jonathan Yes.

[00:37:34] So there's an American theologian, his name is Randy Alcorn.

[00:37:37] Pete Yes, Randy.

[00:37:38] Jonathan He answers the question this way.

[00:37:40] Pete He's got a thick book on it.

[00:37:40] Jonathan He basically said Adam and Eve, when they're in a garden, they're innocent,

[00:37:43] right? They're innocent. They're not sinless. They're innocent. They haven't

[00:37:47] entered into the experience. But when we get to that new garden, as you've alluded to,

[00:37:51] we're righteous. So we've received the righteousness of Jesus. So we do what's right.

[00:37:56] And I think that answer, when I read that, that like gave me hope like, oh,

[00:37:59] somebody's not going to mess this whole thing up for us again.

[00:38:01] Pete Right. Yeah.

[00:38:02] Because they were innocent. But there's a very vast difference between being innocent and being

[00:38:07] righteous, which we receive because of Christ.

[00:38:09] Jonathan That's good.

[00:38:10] Pete Yeah, that's really good.

[00:38:11] Jonathan Just thinking about this whole thing for people listening or watching that are going

[00:38:15] through pain and suffering and why positing God, even if you haven't worked out all this stuff for

[00:38:22] German theologian nonsense, there's something that having the perspective

[00:38:29] of God in the midst of your suffering gives you. And I actually thought about what you sent me the

[00:38:35] other day, I'm writing a chapter right now on death and I was telling Jason about it.

[00:38:38] And he texted me what Jonathan Evans said at his mother's funeral. Of course, he was wrestling with

[00:38:47] God about his mother's death and kind of saying, God, why would you do this? And why would you

[00:38:53] take my mom or whatever? And so God gave him like spoke to him like clearly, and he said this,

[00:38:58] number one, you don't understand the nature of my victory. Because just because I didn't answer your

[00:39:04] prayer your way doesn't mean that I haven't already answered your prayer anyway. Because

[00:39:08] victory was already given to your mom. You don't understand because of the victory that I've given

[00:39:13] you there was always only two answers to your prayers, either she was going to be healed,

[00:39:19] or she was going to be healed. Either she was going to live, or she was going to live.

[00:39:24] Either she was going to be with family, or she was going to be with family. Either she was going

[00:39:31] to be well taken care of, or she was going to be well taken care of. Victory belongs to me because

[00:39:37] what I've already done for you, the two answers to your prayer are yes and yes, because victory

[00:39:43] belongs to Jesus. And I just love that perspective of like, what you were praying that my mom's gonna

[00:39:51] be taken care of. And I answered it because at some point everyone dies, but interpreting that as

[00:40:00] my mom's getting taken care of, because she's gone to be in a better scenario with God. She's

[00:40:05] gone to be with family. She's gone to be to do all the things that I was praying that she does,

[00:40:10] but it's in a different perspective. Because what I meant is keep her on earth to do it.

[00:40:15] And God's going, no, I've done it in a much bigger way. Just that whole perspective helps.

[00:40:20] I thought that was a great shift.

[00:40:21] Yeah, no joke. Let's end this. So somebody's listening to this and they're wrestling with

[00:40:28] human suffering and their relationship with God. And maybe they don't have a concept of how God

[00:40:31] intersects with their suffering, how to bring God into their suffering. One just pastoral encouragement

[00:40:39] from each of us for the person listening that's just struggling with human suffering.

[00:40:44] I would say that Jesus as the man of sorrows exemplifies not only what it means to grieve

[00:40:51] and lament, but also to protest against suffering. We talked about the garden and how in the garden

[00:40:57] there was a tree of life. In Revelation, there's a tree of life. And when God created the world,

[00:41:02] it was in the midst of chaos. And at the end, when God recreates the world, it's in the midst of

[00:41:07] chaos. The trees in the midst of chaos. Jesus, when he died, it says Jesus was the middle tree.

[00:41:13] And surrounding him was chaos. He is the tree of life. He is the one we go to with our grief,

[00:41:18] our lament, our pain. We find a God who walks with us, who limps with us, who grieves with us,

[00:41:23] who weeps with us. But this isn't a passive kind of weeping or limping. The redemption we're

[00:41:29] talking about here is a violent kind of redemption. It is a redemption that pushes back against evil.

[00:41:36] And yes, there's an acceptance of the ultimate yes. He will restore, renew all things.

[00:41:43] But it doesn't mean that we live in this place of just simply waiting and enduring.

[00:41:47] We also ask the question, what are the wounds of our life and this world that most devastate us?

[00:41:54] And what would it look like for us to be a healing presence there? What are the things that most have

[00:42:00] wounded us? And how can we be those who love those who are in the midst of that? It's the fellowship

[00:42:06] of suffering that Paul spoke about. So I would want to ask the question, how can our pain be used

[00:42:12] for redemption for others in this fallen world that we live, knowing that we carry with us the

[00:42:17] scars of the crucified one? Love that. By violent redemption? Maybe by violence. I mean, it's a kind

[00:42:22] of redemption that pushes back actively. Yeah. So we're like against the chaos. We want to heal.

[00:42:28] And that's what Jesus did. That's what the man of sorrows did. He wasn't just weeping,

[00:42:32] crying through life, but it was he when he saw a storm, he rebukes the storm. When he sees leprosy,

[00:42:40] he touches the leper. He's active. Right. And redemption is always proactive. It's violent

[00:42:47] in that sense of it takes the offense. Yeah. That's what we're called to do.

[00:42:52] Well, as the German theologian Jason Kane says,

[00:42:58] Das ist gut. I would say to be honest, what does the fall story teach us if you're looking for

[00:43:06] like principles and you're suffering through pain and agony? It teaches us to not try to be God.

[00:43:16] And I think the quicker you stop trying to be God in the midst of your pain and suffering,

[00:43:24] and you decide to be creature, not creator. I think you're going to more healthily move forward

[00:43:31] in the world. So what does that mean? It means you humbly go, okay, maybe I should start praying

[00:43:36] because there's only somebody bigger than me that can help me. Maybe it is that you become part of

[00:43:43] a community of people where you go surround yourself with people who might serve you and

[00:43:47] love you. I know one person I talked to his wife was suffering with cancer. And he said,

[00:43:53] one of the hardest things about it is your whole church wants to love on you.

[00:43:57] And you got to be on. It's exhausting because then when they show up, they throw all their

[00:44:02] stuff on you. My aunt had the same cat. And all of a sudden you're pastoring everybody.

[00:44:07] But there's a beauty to it too. All these people that are leaning in, they just want to love you.

[00:44:12] And so now you're humbling yourself, even though it's harder to go. I need people. I need people.

[00:44:19] I need God. I need prayer. I need, I need, I need that's the whole principle. The whole story is

[00:44:26] stop acting like you don't need. And in the midst of your moment of pain and suffering,

[00:44:31] almost admit the nature of things, admit that creation kicks back, admit you are just a creature

[00:44:38] that needs. And in that needing, you're going to get healing, emotionally, physically, whatever.

[00:44:44] Yeah. I guess on a practical sense, if you're still watching the podcast at this point in time,

[00:44:48] I think you have some interest or curiosity about faith. And so lean into that, right? Like find a

[00:44:54] faith community, read books. And I also believe in playing the long game. There are people who

[00:44:59] have been wrestling with God their entire lives before they can make a definitive decision.

[00:45:04] Like I know. So I would say just have curiosity to explore the faith and to not, you know,

[00:45:12] get rid of it just because it wasn't the tradition that you grew up in or something to that effect,

[00:45:17] but just be willing to explore. I mean, think about the disciples, Peter's with Jesus for three

[00:45:22] years. Jesus is going to the cross. Peter denies him three times and Jesus let Peter walk with

[00:45:29] him for three years. And Peter did not necessarily have the faith that you would believe that we

[00:45:34] would need to follow Jesus. So I think Jesus offers us this opportunity to follow him before

[00:45:39] we even believe. So pick up the book and read it and see where it leads you.

[00:45:43] Paul Yeah. I think my final word is,

[00:45:46] I think all the, I feel like part of the storyline of my life is that God has allowed a lot of

[00:45:53] suffering. And when I was not a follower of Jesus in suffering, there was a void of relational help.

[00:46:08] And now that I'm a follower of Jesus and I've walked through some really, really hard things

[00:46:11] in my adult life, you know, there's this saying, I would rather suffer with God than without God.

[00:46:17] And I have found that to be so true. And that doesn't mean that it's not hard. In the present,

[00:46:23] it is painful and it's disorienting and it disturbs your life and it elicits questions like about

[00:46:30] faith and God and righteousness and reward and all of this stuff that we talked about.

[00:46:36] But the beautiful thing that I've learned is that God is so near to people who suffer. Like,

[00:46:42] He's an ever-present help in time of need. And any time that you or I are walking through a

[00:46:48] really painful, confusing season that has disrupted our life and we just don't understand, I want you

[00:46:55] to know that there is a God who understands to a depth that no human will ever understand.

[00:47:02] He knows pain at a level that nobody in human history understands because He suffered to an

[00:47:09] extent that is far greater than all of us. And He doesn't just speak that over you, He actually

[00:47:16] enters into your pain like you talked about. And so, I just want to encourage you to let God in

[00:47:22] the nitty-gritty challenges of human pain to be a support and a help through every season. Like,

[00:47:30] I have found God to be more real in my life through the darkest days of depression and anxiety and,

[00:47:36] you know, family illness, serious family illness. I've found God to be more real and more true in

[00:47:43] those moments than in any other moment of my life. So, God is with you and He is near and He cares

[00:47:49] about every ounce of pain that you walk through. So, although we have hope that in the future,

[00:47:56] we're going to be in a better world, in a better place, and we still long for that, we crave that

[00:48:00] in our soul, it's an innate human longing. Right now, in the midst of this in-betweenness,

[00:48:06] you have a God who cares and is with you. So, thank you guys.

[00:48:09] Thank you, sir.

[00:48:10] Obviously, listening through this, everybody knows you guys are absolutely brilliant. Thank you for

[00:48:14] being on this episode and Google this guy, Dominic Doan, Google this guy, Mark Clark.

[00:48:20] Look me up on Instagram.

[00:48:22] Look this guy up on Instagram. He's got the best Instagram ever. And love you guys. So,

[00:48:27] thankful for you.

[00:48:27] You too. Great job, bud.

[00:48:29] Thank you for joining us today. We would love for you to help in spreading the word about Better

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