Working Together For Good

[00:00:02] Hey, Better Days family. Welcome to Better Days podcast season nine.

[00:00:07] This season of the Better Days podcast, we're going to talk about different aspects of mental

[00:00:12] health and suffering. Throughout these episodes, we're going to lay a theological framework for

[00:00:16] each topic, flesh out misunderstandings that we sometimes hold, and offer practical advice

[00:00:22] and tips to help you along in your journey through mental health and suffering. We're

[00:00:28] going to be joined by various friends that I'm so glad are sharing their expertise and advice

[00:00:34] on these important and valuable conversations. If you're new to Better Days, we're a non-profit

[00:00:41] seeking to bring hope, awareness, and education to all things mental health and suffering.

[00:00:46] We help churches, people, and leaders understand the intersection between mental health and

[00:00:51] suffering and following Jesus. For more content from Better Days or to support our work, check

[00:00:56] out our website, betterdaysfmy.co. Let's jump into this week's episode.

[00:01:04] Hey friends, today we are talking about do all things work together for the good,

[00:01:10] which is a quote from a verse in Romans 8 28. But the idea is how do we think through suffering

[00:01:18] and silver linings? Some of you might say, well, what is a silver lining? That's a great question.

[00:01:23] Silver linings are, it's a phrase that essentially conveys that something good can come out of

[00:01:29] something bad. That good can come out of experiences of human suffering. Now, this is a

[00:01:36] phrase and idea and concept that I have really struggled with. I've struggled with this because

[00:01:42] there are moments of suffering that are absolutely devastating for people. Situations like abuse,

[00:01:50] loss, suicide, rape, murder. And there's people across the globe every day that experience

[00:01:57] horrific pain. We think of the present wars that are taking place, terrorism, oppression, racism.

[00:02:05] How can something good come out of those situations? Or how could good intersect with

[00:02:13] people that are experiencing those types of forms of human suffering? So, for a long time I thought

[00:02:21] silver lining seems contradictory. How could this be? And then later I thought maybe

[00:02:27] silver linings are paradoxical. Like up front it feels and seems contradictory, but beneath the

[00:02:34] surface that good can somehow intersect or arise out of painful suffering in life.

[00:02:43] I just want to read this verse because I think this is the essence of maybe

[00:02:47] sometimes Christians misunderstand this verse, and I think we can flesh that out

[00:02:51] and give a healthy perspective, especially in the connection with silver lining and suffering.

[00:02:57] Romans 8 28 says this,

[00:03:00] And we know that in all things God works for good of those who love Him,

[00:03:05] who have been called according to His purpose. This is the most direct statement in the entire

[00:03:11] Bible declaring that good can intersect with suffering. It seems like this is a silver

[00:03:18] lining statement that God is at the center of. And so, one of the things I want to say just to

[00:03:25] start out, and I think Jason, you've said this before, when somebody's in the depths of a deep

[00:03:33] painful experience, don't quote this verse. Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the mistakes that can

[00:03:38] be made is we minimize the struggle that somebody's have or the pain, and timing is essential and

[00:03:44] important. If I were to lose a loved one and somebody lets me know, hey, all things work together

[00:03:48] for the good, I'm gonna wanna hurt them because it's not comforting to hear that in the moment.

[00:03:55] I think grieving is something that we have to let people do. And there's a time and a place

[00:04:00] to quote this scripture because as we're gonna discuss today, it's factual and it's shown to be

[00:04:06] true. But when somebody's in the throes of a difficult season, quoting the scripture while

[00:04:12] well-intentioned, you might wanna give them comfort, is not the comforting thing to do.

[00:04:17] Yeah, let me just set this up. Let me just paint a picture of context. Romans 8 28. Romans 8 28

[00:04:23] is basically in a section of scripture that's talking about the dual reality between present

[00:04:31] suffering and future hope. In other words, we all live in this in-between stage, and there's this

[00:04:39] word picture that is used a couple times in this section in Romans 8 18 through 30, let's say,

[00:04:48] that when we're going through certain painful moments of suffering in life, we groan.

[00:04:54] We don't even know what to say. It's so disorienting. It's so hard on the human soul

[00:05:01] that literally all we can do is groan. And the groaning is both an expression of this is not

[00:05:08] the way it was supposed to be, and it's also an expression of I can't wait for the future hope

[00:05:15] that we have someday. That's the setting. And when I thought about this, because I really

[00:05:20] wrestled with this, I spent a long time thinking about this. Two things that I thought about

[00:05:26] first and foremost were this. All things used to be good. When God designed this world,

[00:05:32] He designed this world good. In fact, He uses that phrase, I think, six to eight times in Genesis

[00:05:37] as His summation of every part of creation was good. Every part of summation reflected His

[00:05:44] intention, His design, His perfect functionality. Every part of creation was experiencing the

[00:05:52] goodness of God's presence, the goodness of relationships. So at one point in time,

[00:05:58] everything was good. And then at another point in time, everything was not good.

[00:06:05] Right, right.

[00:06:06] And I think this is the space that we're talking about, that all things are not good. We live in

[00:06:10] a world where those experiences that I wrestled with in terms of silver lining are reality for so

[00:06:16] many people. There's so many people that say, that's a part of my story. Racism, rape, murder,

[00:06:23] oppression, terrorism, that's a part of people's stories. So we live in a world where all things

[00:06:29] are not good.

[00:06:31] Yeah. I think one of the key things to say on the outset is that there are people who experience,

[00:06:37] and you've already said this, terrible, horrific things. And I think the statements that are often

[00:06:43] made are God is gonna grow you through this, or this is gonna work out for your good. No,

[00:06:49] this passage is not saying that all things are good. It is clear that there are bad things that

[00:06:53] happen in our lives. What this passage says is things work together for good. And I think you

[00:06:58] said, we mentioned how on this episode, we're gonna talk about what does it mean for things to

[00:07:03] work together for our good? Listen, someone experiencing rape that is not good, that's not

[00:07:10] part of God's design. God didn't orchestrate it. It happened and it is a terrible thing. And what

[00:07:16] we're essentially saying is when someone experiences something like that, ultimately,

[00:07:21] God allows it to be good in the end, but it ain't good right now.

[00:07:27] So God's not the agent.

[00:07:29] No, not the agent.

[00:07:29] God's not the cause.

[00:07:30] The author or the cause of evil in any way ever.

[00:07:33] In the Bible, the opposite term for good, the antithesis of good is evil.

[00:07:37] Right.

[00:07:38] And the book of James says that God cannot tempt anyone toward evil, nor does God tempt

[00:07:44] anyone toward evil. And here's why, because God has no evil in his being, in his character,

[00:07:49] in his nature. God is good and the opposite of good is evil. So evil happens in a post-Genesis

[00:07:56] three world where things are not good, where human beings become agents that chose in their

[00:08:02] own volition to walk away from God, his authority and his design. And now we live in this unraveling

[00:08:10] of God's good design. So we see evil, we see suffering, we see pain, we see experiences

[00:08:17] on every level. In fact, Romans eight just doesn't talk about like humans experiencing it.

[00:08:22] He says all the plant life, all of creation, all the animals and the sea creatures and so on and

[00:08:28] so forth are feeling this groaning in them because Genesis three began the unraveling of

[00:08:37] God's good design for this world. So I think that's really important to say, just like, hey,

[00:08:41] like God's not the agent, God's not the cause and God's not necessarily up in heaven,

[00:08:49] you know, strategizing of all the suffering, you know, designing all the suffering for our life.

[00:08:55] I think we need to realize that when it comes to silver lining, this is not God's plan.

[00:09:02] Mm-hmm, right, right.

[00:09:03] God's plan, you sit down with people all the time, they've gone through horrific things in life

[00:09:09] and that was not God's plan. And I think we need to make that clear distinction and

[00:09:15] delineation because when we talk about Romans eight 28, sometimes I think we talk about in

[00:09:21] such a way that's like, oh yeah, God designed this for your life and He's gonna redeem it and

[00:09:25] bring good out of it. And somebody that has just lost a child, somebody that has dealt with,

[00:09:32] you know, sexual assault or rape, somebody that, you know, a family member had been murdered,

[00:09:38] you can't say that, you can't picture God in that way and intersect with their pain. Like that is

[00:09:45] just not healthy, it's not theologically correct and it's deeply hurtful to communicate that type

[00:09:53] of picture to somebody in pain. Yeah, we live in a world where horrible things happen,

[00:09:58] inexplicable, horrible things happen to good people, to vulnerable people and it just,

[00:10:06] it knocks everybody out, just emotionally, psychologically, intellectually. I think that

[00:10:12] it challenges the intellect because it just, all these things just don't make sense that someone

[00:10:19] would have the capacity to rape somebody else or abuse somebody or do those types of things.

[00:10:24] And so we want to find, we want to make sense out of it, we need to make sense out of it just so we

[00:10:32] can go into a state of, back to a state of comfort or where we can be able to like live in it. And so

[00:10:41] in that, sometimes that can be misused, the silver lining can be misused rather than seeing

[00:10:50] it as the silver lining being people's, what I notice in working with people is their capacity

[00:10:56] to survive and even thrive in the face of incredible, just horrific experiences. How

[00:11:06] they have resilience, that's good. And resilience comes from the Lord. He designed us to be able,

[00:11:14] He didn't design these things to happen, but He designed us for us to be able to survive

[00:11:19] and eventually thrive even after that happens. So, God is not meticulously sovereign. By that I

[00:11:29] mean He's not setting these things up for us, He's not making sure that this is a plan for our life

[00:11:36] that we experience these things. Rather than thinking of God being meticulously sovereign,

[00:11:43] think of this, God is sovereign over the storyline of redemption. So, the whole Bible is pointing

[00:11:49] toward the coming of Jesus to save us, redeem us. God has planned that out. We live in a fallen

[00:11:55] world. So, we naturally are going to live experiences as human beings living in an imperfect,

[00:12:02] fallen world that are hard and painful, and some of which are just devastating. It's hard to even

[00:12:10] communicate and articulate with somebody who's walked through that because it's so painful

[00:12:16] and so disoriented on every level, disorienting on every level what people go through,

[00:12:22] including some of us in our stories. So, God is planning the redemption. And because we live

[00:12:29] in this sphere where there is these types of experiences, it's not that God plans them,

[00:12:36] but that God enters into them. I think that's an important picture to paint.

[00:12:40] Right. Yeah. And it's not only that we live in a fallen world, we live in a world where people

[00:12:44] have free will as well. And so, I think that's one of the things that's important to talk about

[00:12:49] as we talk about suffering is that people have free will and call suffering on other people,

[00:12:54] but suffering is never the end of the story. And God has a way, as you said, of entering into our

[00:13:00] stories to bring about redemption. That's what Romans 8 28 is talking about. Things work together

[00:13:05] for good. God takes the evil that people have and enters it into a story of redemption where

[00:13:11] he's able to redeem the thing that's bad. Now, I might be talking about this too early in the

[00:13:15] episode, but I think when we talk about working things out for our good, sometimes the good is

[00:13:20] not here in this life. Yeah. Future. Right. It's a future good that happens. Sometimes things work

[00:13:27] out for our good here in this life, that sometimes, but ultimately things will be for our good when we

[00:13:35] are in eternity with Jesus forever. And that's the good. And that's the hope that we have that

[00:13:41] eschatologically at the end of things, things will be good and the evil will be behind us forever.

[00:13:46] Some people hear that term and they're like, wait, what did Jason say? He's really smart.

[00:13:50] He's really smart. So it was one word I got while I was in seminary. Eschatological is just

[00:13:54] the study of in things. That's all that means. Comes from a Greek term eschatos, which means

[00:13:58] last or end. I did not know that part. No, I'm just kidding. You knew that. You knew that.

[00:14:02] So when we're talking about God being good and that being the ultimate goodness that can come

[00:14:10] at any point while we're dealing with suffering, those of us who are not in a season of suffering,

[00:14:16] we could think of how can we be the good? Well, how can we be the good that comes

[00:14:22] into the life of somebody who's in a season of suffering? And so it's easy to kind of get stuck

[00:14:28] and swirl into the looking at somebody suffering and go, God, like how can this work out for the

[00:14:34] good? And just kind of throwing out antidotes instead turn inward and go, God, how do you

[00:14:39] want me to be the good? That is really good. No pun intended. Yeah. That's the point of the church.

[00:14:45] That's the point of the community of the church is for us to be the good. When people are experiencing

[00:14:51] difficulty and trial, that's what the church has been put here for, to be salt and light

[00:14:55] in a world where there is a lot of bad that is happening. There's an opportunity for us to be

[00:15:00] good. So then when God says he's going to work all things for the good, what does that mean?

[00:15:07] First of all, I think you have to start with God. The Bible over and over again says that God is

[00:15:12] good. And I know that's generic. We say that, we don't even know what we're saying sometimes as

[00:15:17] Christians. It's hard to understand because you're like, wait, this generic God is good,

[00:15:23] how does that intersect with my life? How does that intersect with my pain?

[00:15:29] Here's what we mean when we say God is good. God in his very nature is good. When we say God is

[00:15:36] good, we're saying the very person of God, the very essence of God is good. So, in Genesis 1 and 2,

[00:15:45] I mentioned over and over there's this term used that everything God created was good,

[00:15:50] and it was good, and it was good. The term good is tov. Tov can be translated desirable,

[00:15:58] can be translated pleasant, it can be translated morally good, or it can just be translated good.

[00:16:04] And what we mean by that is that when you talk about God in his very nature is good,

[00:16:09] God is morally good. He only creates good things. All that he creates functions in harmony with his

[00:16:17] goodness. His goodness is seen in different ways throughout history, his kindness, his grace,

[00:16:23] his generosity towards imperfect people like me, like that is good. God in his very nature is good.

[00:16:29] So, listen to a couple of Psalms, how they declare this. Psalm 34a,

[00:16:34] taste and see that the Lord is good, blessed is the one who takes refuge in him. That's obviously

[00:16:39] in terms of human life, hard stuff. Psalm 119, 68, you are good and what you do is good. I think

[00:16:47] that's important. So, like, let me make a summary statement that encapsulates God's goodness. Number

[00:16:52] one, God is good. Number two, God only does good. And so, when you think about that, you have God

[00:16:58] in heaven and we're on earth and we're experiencing suffering and pain. God in his very nature, if we

[00:17:03] have a relationship with him is good. And God in his activities and actions that flow out of his

[00:17:10] essence and nature can only do good. This is an important part of the storyline of Romans 828.

[00:17:16] That goes to us and how we notice the good that God is doing. And I just find myself being grateful

[00:17:26] that God will do good regardless of whether you're in a position of receiving it or noticing it.

[00:17:33] That does not influence whether he does good in our lives or he is good. So, I'm thinking about

[00:17:39] the people I work with who are suffering. What happened to them is bad, bad, bad. They're

[00:17:44] suffering in this badness and yet there could be some good things happening to them. Not the

[00:17:51] bad turning good, but that maybe people are showing up. Maybe they were able to maintain a job or

[00:18:00] whatever, like things in their lives were taken care of while they were doing that. But because

[00:18:04] they are suffering in the moment, they are under this dark cape right now. They're not able to

[00:18:10] notice that. So, their perspective is not there to notice it yet. Then time comes in and they're

[00:18:16] able to look back at the suffering in their life. All of a sudden, there's a perspective shift

[00:18:21] and they go, whoa, now I see the good that was there while I was still under the heaviness,

[00:18:28] the throes of the bad. And can I just pause? I think you just said something so important

[00:18:34] that all of us followers of Jesus need to articulate. The correct verbiage is so important

[00:18:41] when we're walking with somebody through pain to be able to acknowledge that what happened to you

[00:18:47] was bad. You're a Christian, you're a follower of Jesus, this is bad. This is not good. This is not

[00:18:55] God's design for this world. This is the antithesis. This is evil. To use that word,

[00:19:03] to communicate with the right words is really important. Then to say, but on the other hand,

[00:19:07] God can still do good in the midst of this bad. I think to articulate, use the right verbiage is

[00:19:15] so important. Because you often, and Jason, you mentioned this earlier, often what we hear,

[00:19:22] and I don't know if Christians do this because we're uncomfortable with how painful certain

[00:19:27] situations are, we only hear the optimism. Like, oh, but God's good or God's gonna work all things

[00:19:35] for the good. But to actually sit down with somebody and say, no, what happened to you was

[00:19:38] really bad. Yeah. That's what compassion looks like, is to tell somebody that what they've

[00:19:42] experienced is bad. Jesus shows up, his friend Lazarus has died. He weeps. He does not ignore

[00:19:50] the reality that something bad had happened. And he weeps knowing he's gonna raise him up from the

[00:19:54] dead. I think Jesus just shows something about grief in that moment, is that grief must take

[00:19:59] place. Yes, resurrection is on the other side, but there are things that happen that we should spend

[00:20:04] time grieving and we should spend time lamenting over as we see in the Psalms. That is a necessary

[00:20:10] part of the process, that before you need to go to the silver lining, deal with the tragic mess

[00:20:17] that you might be experiencing. And those who can come alongside those people in that moment,

[00:20:23] I think the struggle to the verbiage is thinking, what can I say? And so,

[00:20:28] in with the best intentions of wanting to help them have a perspective shift, here's the thing.

[00:20:35] No one who is suffering expects you to say the thing that's gonna make that suffering go away.

[00:20:40] They are well aware that there is nothing that you can say or do that's going to end the suffering.

[00:20:48] That's what makes it suffering. So, with that being said, you know, well, there's nothing

[00:20:53] that I can say that's going to make it go away. What is it that people who are suffering

[00:20:59] look for? What do they get hurt about that didn't happen that would have helped them?

[00:21:03] Your presence, your being there and available and consistently there with them to sit with them as

[00:21:11] they're going through what Jason's talking about, going through the grief in the throes of it.

[00:21:16] Where were you? Check in on me. Sit there and just be quiet and listen to me. Send me some...

[00:21:23] some food or, hey, let me just wanted to send you a text to say I'm thinking about you. I'm

[00:21:28] praying for you. Hey, what do you think about us going out for coffee tomorrow or dropping off

[00:21:35] a plant or something with them? But all of those does not involve... doesn't really

[00:21:40] involve a lot of words, no wise phrasing, but just you consistently being there.

[00:21:45] So good. So valuable. So, Jason, there's a bunch of stories in the Old Testament, as you know,

[00:21:51] that really paint a picture of this. Romans 8, 28. Can you think of any?

[00:21:57] Yeah. I mean, I think the first one that comes to mind is Joseph. If you're unfamiliar with Joseph,

[00:22:01] was the youngest boy, his brother's thrown in a pit, essentially settlement of slavery.

[00:22:06] He becomes a slave while he's enslaved. He actually rises to the ranks. He's the head

[00:22:11] of Potiphar's house. Then he's accused of rape, thrown in jail again.

[00:22:15] Falsely accused.

[00:22:16] Falsely accused of rape. Yeah, let's get that in there.

[00:22:20] Falsely accused of rape, ends up in jail again, meet some friends while he's in jail. They're

[00:22:24] going to help him get out. When they get out, they forget about him. And eventually, after all of

[00:22:29] these bad things have happened, betrayal by his brothers, time in jail, falsely imprisoned, and

[00:22:35] this is over a 30-year time span, he gets out of prison, raises to the ranks in Israel. That's

[00:22:43] where he's at, right? Egypt. Egypt, excuse me. Raises to the ranks in Egypt to be the second

[00:22:48] in charge. There's a famine in the land. His brothers show back up. So think, the brothers

[00:22:52] who started him on this bad cycle are standing before him and he has an opportunity to control

[00:22:58] their future destiny. And what does he say to them? What you meant for evil, God was able to

[00:23:03] turn for good. And what is so amazing about the story of Joseph was he had this perspective

[00:23:10] that ultimately God is able to work something for good when bad has happened. It is remarkable that

[00:23:16] that is the attitude that he has. Many of us, we seek revenge or we'd be like, man, the people

[00:23:22] who caused this pain in my life for 30 years, I'm going to get back to them. But Joseph just had

[00:23:27] this perspective, which I think is important for believers to have. They say, man, bad things will

[00:23:32] happen to me, but ultimately God will use them for my good. There's another verse in Romans 8,

[00:23:36] I know we're talking about the Old Testament, in Romans 8, 18, where Paul says that the suffering

[00:23:41] of this present world can't be compared to the glory that will be revealed in the end. And so

[00:23:46] it's just this perspective on suffering that says, suffering is not the last thing that will happen

[00:23:52] to me. There's a pastor, I can't think of his name, but he has this phrase and he essentially says

[00:23:57] that the worst things are never the last things. And so it's just knowing that what happens in

[00:24:02] your life that is the worst thing is never the last thing, that there is something good that

[00:24:07] comes at the end of it, that ultimately and eschatologically as we said, good is going to

[00:24:13] overcome and is going to be the thing that prevails. That's such a good story. And I can

[00:24:19] only imagine that Joseph was in prison day after day thinking, I don't understand this. Oh goodness.

[00:24:25] Like the puzzle pieces don't fit together. What are you doing God? Look at all of like

[00:24:31] sold into slavery, rejected by my family, going to exile in a foreign country, have to learn a new

[00:24:37] culture and language. I'm away from all my dad, my brothers, like tearing apart of those relational

[00:24:45] years of being a kid in your family of origin at home. I mean, and then falsely accused in prison.

[00:24:52] I'm sure there's a lot of days he's like, I don't get it.

[00:24:55] Or perhaps not. Perhaps he had this level of trust in God. Because I think sometimes

[00:25:02] we learn about these scriptures after suffering has happened in our lives. I think for,

[00:25:07] in other cases, there are people and I've seen people experience extreme trial in life,

[00:25:12] but they're insulated by scriptures like this. Like they're able to minister to themselves and say,

[00:25:18] man, what the devil meant for evil, God meant for good. Man, things are going to work out for my

[00:25:22] good. I've seen people stand in the face of trials and have this spiritual vitality in the midst of

[00:25:29] it that surpasses all human ability in many cases. And I think I thankfully have not experienced

[00:25:38] like extreme trial or loss. I've had some loss that I've had, but I haven't experienced extreme

[00:25:43] suffering in my life, but I know that I will. Like it just comes with the story of being a human

[00:25:48] being. You will experience it. And it's interesting to know how you don't know how you'll

[00:25:54] face those trials until you face them. Yeah. I think you're right. There's some people that

[00:26:02] they just speak that into their heart every day. Like that's what the Psalmist did. He said,

[00:26:06] why are you so disquieted within me? Why are you so downcast? And he said, hope in God. Like he

[00:26:11] was speaking to himself. The most important conversation sometimes we have is with ourself.

[00:26:16] That's Jesus too. I think, is it Hebrews that says for the joy set before him,

[00:26:21] he is able to endure the cross. And so he knew on the other side of the cross,

[00:26:25] there's this joyous thing that's going to happen. So I'm able to endure what I'm experiencing now

[00:26:31] because I know that joy will come later. That's extreme maturity, extreme maturity.

[00:26:36] Not the majority, right? No, absolutely not. Absolutely not.

[00:26:39] I think the majority is we're groaning, Romans 8. Like creation's groaning, we're groaning. It's bad.

[00:26:45] It's not good. God didn't design this for your life. Like this is the antithesis of God's very

[00:26:51] nature. So God is good and God does good. And I think good is multifaceted. It's not one thing.

[00:26:58] So when you're thinking, when you're thinking God works all things for the good, it's multifaceted.

[00:27:05] Like there can be so many layers to that. So let me give you guys a few examples.

[00:27:09] Let's start with this category. There is present good. So as followers of Jesus,

[00:27:16] when we're walking through pain and suffering, God can bring present good into your life.

[00:27:22] Let me give you a couple examples. If God is good, his very presence in our life in the midst

[00:27:28] of suffering is good. Like him just being there. What's that verse in Psalm 34, verse 18,

[00:27:34] that God is near to the broken heart and saves the crust and spirit. Like he's near to us. It's

[00:27:40] what you brought up, presence. Like we're representational of God when we do the same

[00:27:45] thing. We just show up. And when God shows up in the storm, he's not loud. He's not talking a million

[00:27:51] miles an hour. You just sense his presence. And that's good. Like that's one of the things that

[00:27:57] is good that we can experience in any form of human suffering. Another one is God's help in

[00:28:03] the midst of suffering is good. He just doesn't like show up in our life. Like he helps us. That's

[00:28:09] Romans 8, 26 and 27 where it says, sometimes we don't know what to say or pray. So the spirit of

[00:28:15] God prays for us. He's interceding for us. God knows that there's things in life that just like

[00:28:24] we don't even have words. All we do is grieve and we need divine help. Like we need God to like

[00:28:33] support us and help us. Another aspect is God's comfort in the midst of suffering.

[00:28:38] Second Corinthians 1, 3 and 4 says that God is a God of all comfort and he comforts us in our

[00:28:44] troubles. So like he's actually doing something emotionally, like in our emotions to help us

[00:28:51] by his comfort. Another one that you just mentioned is that God's able to redeem our

[00:28:56] suffering for good. Like Genesis 50, like that story of Joseph. That term also is used in a

[00:29:03] similar vein in the Exodus story where the people were in oppression and God comes in through Moses,

[00:29:11] redeems them out of Egypt, the place of oppression, and he brings them into a promised land. And all

[00:29:16] of that is a picture of good. Like God is taking this harsh, evil experience in Egypt and he's

[00:29:24] redeeming them out of it and he's bringing them to a good land flowing with milk and honey.

[00:29:29] Yeah.

[00:29:29] And God knowing how he designed us, he sent Jesus to relieve suffering but to experience suffering.

[00:29:35] Yes.

[00:29:35] And the fact that we can turn to God and be like, oh, you understand betrayal,

[00:29:41] you understand torture, you understand loss, death.

[00:29:45] All of it.

[00:29:46] All of it. Broken friendships, all of that. People mischaracterizing you, being bullied,

[00:29:53] all those things. You understand all of it. And he sent Jesus to take that on because he knew

[00:30:01] that as he comes into comfort us, us limited, the limited part of ourselves, we go,

[00:30:06] how do you know about this?

[00:30:08] Yes. Totally.

[00:30:09] Totally.

[00:30:09] It's like I allowed myself to experience all of that stuff. I didn't need it, but I did it so that

[00:30:16] you can feel that connection with me in it.

[00:30:20] That's the greatest example. That illustration that God came to us to suffer for us and understand

[00:30:27] suffering to a degree that we will never understand it. The depths of suffering he experienced are far

[00:30:33] more than any of us will ever experience. That doesn't lessen the value of our experience.

[00:30:40] It just says he gets it. He gets it. Jason, talk to us about this. So there's present good.

[00:30:47] Another part is like, and we'll talk about this on the episode because I think this is often

[00:30:51] misunderstood but also very important is that suffering forms us. It changes us. We rethink

[00:30:57] life. But the second category I think of good is there's future good, that God is able to bring

[00:31:05] future greater good into our life. Sometimes we're like, okay, I'm not experiencing goodness here

[00:31:11] and now, but maybe God has a plan of greater goodness that far exceeds what you said, Romans

[00:31:16] 8 verse 18.

[00:31:17] Yeah. When I think about future good, specifically I'm talking about eternity.

[00:31:21] Yeah.

[00:31:22] I'm thinking about when Christ returns. I'm thinking about when we die and we spend eternity

[00:31:28] with him in a place that is ultimately good forever, Revelation 21. I think anytime I'm

[00:31:35] discouraged I read Revelation 21 to remind me of the fact there'll be a place with no more

[00:31:39] crying, no more weeping, no more mourning. He'll wipe every tear from their eye, no more sickness,

[00:31:43] no more pain. That is a place that we will return to and live there forever. Then that lets us

[00:31:51] know that's the future good that we look forward to. Death in some ways is a blessing for us

[00:31:58] because we're able to leave this world and go to the next where things are in perfection.

[00:32:05] Think if there was no death and someone was sick, they would be sick perpetually.

[00:32:08] Forever.

[00:32:09] You would be sick forever. You could not die. You would literally feel sick forever. That's awful.

[00:32:13] But death becomes this door where we enter into the next life where there is ultimate good

[00:32:18] forever for all of eternity. And so Romans 8 28 is talking about the ultimate good is that Christ

[00:32:24] has redeemed us and that we're able to live with him forever and ever. That is good for my soul to

[00:32:32] know.

[00:32:32] That is the thrust of Romans 8 28.

[00:32:35] Yes.

[00:32:35] Romans 8 28 is saying God has promised to bring complete renewal to all things.

[00:32:43] God has promised that we will one day be free from sin and suffering, Revelation 21.

[00:32:48] Such an important verse. And that all life forms, this isn't just us as humans, the plants,

[00:32:55] the animals, the ecosystem, all of it will be completely renewed.

[00:33:00] Are you saying there'll be dogs in heaven?

[00:33:02] 100%. My Lucy will be in heaven. And tell us your dog's name.

[00:33:07] Gio.

[00:33:08] Gio will be in heaven. All good dogs go to heaven. For sure. And I just think this is so important.

[00:33:17] I think what helped me process through this and realize that, yes, God works all things for the

[00:33:22] good is to understand the nuance of it. Because for me, it was like so general. I was like,

[00:33:27] how could somebody go through some of the things I experienced as a child?

[00:33:31] How could you sit down and say to that person, God's gonna work all things for the good.

[00:33:36] And then I got into the nuance of this and I realized, oh my goodness, there's so much good

[00:33:43] that God does in human suffering presently and in the future. And I just think...

[00:33:52] And I just wanna say something, even this verse, it's not diminishing the hard stuff.

[00:33:59] This whole passage is actually highlighting the hard stuff and acknowledging the hard stuff and

[00:34:05] giving humans the freedom to express the pain and the difficulty of the hard stuff. Or else God

[00:34:11] wouldn't have said, all creation is groaning and you're groaning too. So this doesn't mean that

[00:34:18] we all have to be happy, clappy and unhealthily optimistic. We can be like, oh man, today was

[00:34:25] really hard. Or we had a family member that was murdered a few years ago. You can't even express

[00:34:34] in words for the family members, all the family members that experienced this in our family,

[00:34:43] how hard that was. There's no words in human vocabulary to express the pain of that type of

[00:34:52] loss. But you know what else I saw? I saw God presently being with every single family member.

[00:35:02] And I saw so many family members acknowledge, even maybe for a first time in a long time,

[00:35:10] the good presence of God at work in each individual and how He was comforting them

[00:35:16] and helping them and withholding... Holding them up, part of me, through all of those days to

[00:35:23] persevere through a really, really painful moment. And you'll never get over that,

[00:35:28] but God's still there. And there's still that promise of future good for every person in every

[00:35:35] painful circumstance that believes in Jesus. And I think we really need to hold on to this promise

[00:35:42] and share it in a wise way, in the right time, not in the wrong time, in an unwise way.

[00:35:47] And then I think I just wanna circle back one more time to what you said, Stephanie,

[00:35:52] that Jesus is the ultimate story of good coming out of suffering. The death of Jesus was the most

[00:36:00] traumatic event in human history. God died, God was murdered, God was crucified. And yet, that

[00:36:08] was the very means in which God brought life and forgiveness and hope and healing and ultimate

[00:36:17] restoration of all things to us. That is a beautiful story. And I just feel like highlighting

[00:36:25] that is so important in this whole discussion around. And we know that all things, God works

[00:36:32] for the good to those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose. Hopefully,

[00:36:37] this was a helpful conversation. We hope you enjoyed it. And we know that sometimes life is hard,

[00:36:45] but I think insinuated in this promise is there are better days ahead for all of us.

[00:36:54] Thank you for joining us today. We would love for you to help in spreading the word about Better

[00:37:00] Days Podcast so that we can bring hope and help to people navigating mental health challenges

[00:37:06] or suffering of any kind. We would love if you let a friend know who may be walking through a

[00:37:11] hard moment, or you can also share on your social channels. We appreciate every person's support.

[00:37:18] You can find more resources at betterdaysfmy.co. Join us for another episode next week.

[00:37:26] There are better days ahead.