Homiletical Tips, Preferences and Strongly Held Opinions - Mike Neglia

[00:00:00] Hey, welcome to the Expositors Collective Podcast, episode 345. I'm your host, Mike Neglia.

[00:00:07] This episode that you're about to hear is a recording from a workshop and evening

[00:00:13] that I was invited to take part in in Santa Maria, California back in January of 2024.

[00:00:20] Pastor Connor Berry and the team at Coverage Apple Santa Maria put on an event for,

[00:00:27] I guess, their own leaders and some other Bible teachers and preachers from the surrounding area.

[00:00:34] And it was a great night called Pizza and Preaching. So we ate pizza together and I talked about preaching.

[00:00:42] The first half of that conversation is actually episode 336 where I talked about preparing our heart to study God's Word.

[00:00:52] And then this is kind of session 2 where I just kind of rant for a while about some pet peeves of mine or some easily correctable steps to be clear in our communication.

[00:01:07] So studying the Bible is one part and then communicating it well is the second.

[00:01:12] I hope that you enjoy listening on this conversation and then also the panel discussion that takes place in the second where it's myself, Connor Berry, Brian Stupar and Ed Compion.

[00:01:25] And hey, speaking of Ed Compion, you know, Ed planted a church in Kenya and Ed and I are now at the time of this release.

[00:01:36] Ed and I are both going to be in Kampala, Uganda and we're getting ready for our first ever Kampala, Uganda expositors collective.

[00:01:47] So we're going to be teaching how to teach. We're going to be preaching about preaching.

[00:01:53] We're going to be leading workshops in small groups to help equip, train, raise up and encourage local Ugandan pastors to handle the word effectively and to communicate it well in their context.

[00:02:08] You guys have been great. We've been fundraising for the past couple of months and you guys have really done a great job making it possible for pastors in the rural regions, the outskirts of the country.

[00:02:20] You've sponsored them to come into the city and for Ed, myself, Brian Kelly, Zeddy Mizungu, Juventine and others.

[00:02:32] We get to encourage and hopefully send them back home a little bit better than when they came.

[00:02:38] Just want to say thank you so much for that. Those of you who gave and you can also help by praying.

[00:02:43] If you're listening to this on the day this episode comes out, that means that we are on the cusp of starting on Wednesday morning, the 11th.

[00:02:53] And we're going to be organizing a lot of stuff and I'd appreciate your prayers if you could remember us on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.

[00:03:03] All right, here is my workshop entitled Homiletical Tips, Preferences and Strongly Held Opinions.

[00:03:19] Grow in your personal study and public proclamation of God's word.

[00:03:24] And so for the first half, we looked at your personal study, you know, digging into the passage and then planning a way to communicate it in a way that is useful and helpful that connects with the hearers.

[00:03:36] And then now it's the public proclamation. How do we say it?

[00:03:42] And you know, for the first part I kind of had like a verse and an outline here. I'm just going to rant.

[00:03:48] I just have a lot of thoughts. I have a lot of preferences and a lot of thoughts and ideas.

[00:03:53] And I have some times where maybe we can interact a bit and then of course as you saw, we'll have that kind of panel discussion afterwards.

[00:03:59] But this is kind of in no particular order. It's just like Mike's strong opinions.

[00:04:05] So this is what you shouldn't do on a Sunday morning, but you can.

[00:04:11] Yeah guys, no verses, nothing. Just a bunch of thoughts.

[00:04:16] All right, so homiletics. So this is like speaking, teaching, homily comes from this.

[00:04:23] So it's orally communicating ancient biblical truths in a faithful, memorable and clear way.

[00:04:31] So even if you do everything right in the first half, if you've even prepared your heart, you've dug into the passage,

[00:04:40] you've even got like a killer outline. Maybe you even have a big idea because apparently they're so important.

[00:04:46] Or not.

[00:04:48] But if you have all of that and then just communicate it poorly, it's just a real shame.

[00:04:56] I have an acquaintance of mine. He has a coffee roasting company called Badger and Dodo.

[00:05:06] He talks about how coffee is made three times. It's made when it's grown in the plantation, you know?

[00:05:14] When it's the best, the perfect soil. There's the coffee belts between the Tropic of Capricorn and the Tropic of Cancer.

[00:05:22] And it's got to be in the same, the right part of the world that has to be raised right so it's made.

[00:05:28] And then it's made a second time when those beans are harvested and they're sent from Uganda and they're sent all the way to, where are we?

[00:05:42] San Maria. And then San Maria arrives here and then it's made a second time because those green beans are then roasted to perfection.

[00:05:49] And there could be someone who's looking after it so perfectly and they hear the first crack and then the second crack.

[00:05:55] And then it's perfect. And then it's made the third time because it's bagged, then it's sent to your house.

[00:06:02] And then you make it when you grind it up and then you pour the water over it in just the right way.

[00:06:08] And if you mess it up, if you have too much water or it's too hot, then you're going to drink it and you're going to be like, this coffee is terrible.

[00:06:15] That coffee is not terrible. You are terrible.

[00:06:21] Now, what this has to do with preaching I think is kind of obvious.

[00:06:26] If there's a bad sermon, if there's a bad teaching, the problem is not with God's word.

[00:06:33] It has to do with it being communicated in a way that might be true but is not memorable or it isn't clear or heaven forbid it isn't faithful.

[00:06:43] So at the end of all that stage it could then reach the hearers in a way that was just muffled, garbled, incorrect.

[00:06:53] So here's some ways that I think that we can do this.

[00:06:56] Well first off just be yourself.

[00:06:59] That's the advice that the genie gave to Aladdin as he was trying to woo Princess Jasmine.

[00:07:08] Remember, be yourself.

[00:07:10] So don't pretend to be someone who you're not.

[00:07:16] I like coffee so I can talk about coffee in a way that's authentic and real.

[00:07:22] My son likes Disney movies so I have lots of references to Disney stories because that's just kind of my authentic self, whether I like it or not.

[00:07:34] There's that story in 1 Samuel chapter 17, the David and Goliath story.

[00:07:40] There's the part when David is about to go to battle and Saul says well you got to wear my armor and you're guaranteed victory.

[00:07:50] But David tried it on and then wisely realized this isn't who I am.

[00:07:54] This doesn't fit me for one and then God has prepared me for this battle on the sheep field, sheepfold, sheep pasture, not in Saul's armor.

[00:08:09] So likewise God's prepared you to communicate his word to either a large or a small group of his precious people and how has he prepared you?

[00:08:19] Who is the teacher and communicator that God's made you to be?

[00:08:24] And be that.

[00:08:25] And be the clearest version of that.

[00:08:30] So this is not an opportunity to just shrug and be like okay great, this takes no effort, no work.

[00:08:36] It actually takes a lot of effort and a lot of work to be the clearest version of yourself.

[00:08:43] That means that you should try to speak clearly.

[00:08:46] That means that you should try to be expressive.

[00:08:50] Maybe even a little bit more than usual and use whatever amplification is necessary.

[00:08:57] Leverage what you do well.

[00:09:00] Some of you are like natural storytellers and God's going to use that storytelling ability in your Bible teaching.

[00:09:07] Some of you just like no facts and you just love history.

[00:09:10] God's going to use that.

[00:09:12] So be the clearest, most helpful version of yourself.

[00:09:21] Also find the right tone.

[00:09:24] That means that as you teach in whatever capacity it's not a classroom lecture.

[00:09:32] Like tonight kind of is a little bit but most of the time you're not going to be teaching in this context.

[00:09:38] You're not going to be speaking to 35 Bible teachers in whatever capacity.

[00:09:43] So when I speak to you, like I have some assumptions about you that I think are correct.

[00:09:48] That you are convinced of the truthfulness of God's word.

[00:09:50] That you want to honor the Bible and the author of it.

[00:09:54] Jesus Christ, the grand central theme.

[00:09:57] So I'm assuming these things about you and I could be a little bit more didactic or teachy.

[00:10:02] There's like a pastoral burden that I believe that each and every one of us should carry in our teaching.

[00:10:10] Whether we have the office or title of pastor or not,

[00:10:16] the idea of shepherding and communicating God's word in a way that to care for people's souls should come across.

[00:10:25] It's not just information transfer.

[00:10:29] I'm not just Bluetooth-ing info to you.

[00:10:32] Like it's coming through my personality and I want you to get this because I think it will help you.

[00:10:39] And then not just you, I think you're going to help other people with this.

[00:10:43] So I'm in a little bit of a teacher mode right now but I hope it's pastoral.

[00:10:48] I hope it comes off that way a little bit.

[00:10:50] I'm trying my best to appear that way.

[00:10:54] So the aim isn't just information.

[00:10:56] Like our people know a lot already and maybe they know what you're going to say.

[00:11:02] But it's to press that information in a transformative way.

[00:11:06] Like the goal is not information but transformation, an encounter with God in the moment.

[00:11:14] Francis Grimke says that the function of the pulpit,

[00:11:17] it's not to entertain or to amuse, to satisfy an idle curiosity.

[00:11:22] It is to instruct, to inspire, to fire the heart and the mind,

[00:11:29] to implant within us noble desires and ambitious.

[00:11:33] The Lord Jesus Christ and to forget within them a passion for Him.

[00:11:38] So there is a little bit of, there's teaching that's there.

[00:11:41] There is instruction but that's for the purpose of inspiring this ambition

[00:11:46] towards knowing Christ and following Him.

[00:11:49] So that's kind of the goal.

[00:11:50] So we teach for the transformational moment.

[00:11:55] So I think, and I have a question that's going to come up in a moment or two,

[00:11:58] but I think that as we teach with this in mind, with this goal,

[00:12:06] I think that we should teach as two things.

[00:12:10] Number one, we're fellow learners.

[00:12:13] And then number two, we're prophets of the Most High God.

[00:12:16] And so I think that there should be aspects when we teach

[00:12:22] that kind of shows people that, listen man,

[00:12:25] I've got a lot to learn myself.

[00:12:27] I'm on this journey following Jesus' challenge

[00:12:31] and we're in this together.

[00:12:33] And so for those moments, I think that we should use we language

[00:12:37] or I language.

[00:12:40] I'm growing in this.

[00:12:41] I'm learning.

[00:12:44] But then also, we need to boldly proclaim God's word

[00:12:48] and we need to call people to obedience and to faith

[00:12:53] as God's mouthpiece.

[00:12:56] And to say you must respond to this.

[00:13:00] And so the use of, I mean California,

[00:13:04] the use of pronouns really matters.

[00:13:07] And the pronouns that we use,

[00:13:11] sometimes the pronouns should be we

[00:13:13] and then I think sometimes the pronouns should be you.

[00:13:19] Guys, do you use mostly we language

[00:13:22] or mostly you language in your teaching?

[00:13:26] This is the question part.

[00:13:28] There's not really a right or wrong answer, but yeah.

[00:13:31] And then how have you thought about it?

[00:13:33] It depends on the situation in the passage.

[00:13:37] Yeah.

[00:13:37] And then as you talk about it really in the first half,

[00:13:43] our personal study, how it's convicting us

[00:13:46] as the free for myself even,

[00:13:49] although we use that for myself,

[00:13:52] I'm being convicted by this passage

[00:13:54] which is something that we need to do this

[00:13:58] or it is a Holy Spirit's leading guide

[00:14:01] and being in my sermon or my message.

[00:14:03] Is it, hey this is what the word's telling me to share with you.

[00:14:07] This is where you need to go.

[00:14:11] You okay?

[00:14:13] I think the thoughtful use or the thoughtful changing

[00:14:20] of one pronoun to the other,

[00:14:23] particularly going from we to you

[00:14:27] is really useful in that it wakes people back up.

[00:14:33] That switching of ears, our ears are tuned to that

[00:14:39] and it's a great opportunity to drive it back home.

[00:14:43] It's a making person.

[00:14:45] On the one hand, it feels like to make a person a little...

[00:14:48] You talk about yourself all the time,

[00:14:50] but you're saying it's making a person a little...

[00:14:52] You talk about you.

[00:14:54] Last thought, yeah?

[00:14:55] I was just thinking in women's ministry,

[00:14:57] we're trying to set this tone that I'm not the expert,

[00:15:00] but let's meet together and spend a little time with the others.

[00:15:03] So I'm using a lot of we's,

[00:15:06] but at the same time I also have not thought about it

[00:15:08] and it is a good opportunity to make that switch.

[00:15:12] Good job bud.

[00:15:14] I usually think maybe there will be times where I will...

[00:15:19] I'm missing you.

[00:15:20] Well clarity really helps.

[00:15:22] That helps in clarity because you can say

[00:15:25] like I understand the issues, the problems.

[00:15:27] We understand this together corporately,

[00:15:29] but you need to receive Jesus.

[00:15:32] I don't need to receive Jesus because I have Jesus,

[00:15:34] but you need to receive Jesus.

[00:15:36] So that becomes a clarifying position of

[00:15:39] there is a difference,

[00:15:40] there is a change, there is transformation that needs to happen

[00:15:44] by seeing that you part.

[00:15:47] Or maybe twist the question a little bit.

[00:15:51] What if we only ever said we?

[00:15:54] What would we be missing out on?

[00:15:56] And then what if we only ever said you?

[00:15:58] What would we be missing out on?

[00:16:00] If we only say we, I think what we're missing out on

[00:16:03] is my experience typically is with you.

[00:16:08] And reminding them that you have access to the word.

[00:16:13] You have access to that relationship.

[00:16:17] I think when it's only we,

[00:16:20] it doesn't make it personal for them

[00:16:23] that their relationship with the word

[00:16:26] is just as important as the word is saying to all of us

[00:16:31] that it's personal, that it's a you.

[00:16:37] I think you mentioned profit, being a profit from the pulpit.

[00:16:43] And when you use you language,

[00:16:46] you're allowing your words and direct by the spirit

[00:16:50] to give a prophetic command or directive to the people

[00:16:57] so that their lives will then know how to behave

[00:17:02] or how to respond to what they heard.

[00:17:09] I'm prone towards we language,

[00:17:12] because it feels safer.

[00:17:15] And then for me, I'm a cross-cultural missionary.

[00:17:17] I'm an American coming into a different country.

[00:17:20] So I want to avoid that kind of like arrogance.

[00:17:23] Let me sort you guys out.

[00:17:24] But I think that I've erred too much of that.

[00:17:28] Whereas like, hey listen, we're all addicted to drugs.

[00:17:32] I was like, well no, I'm not.

[00:17:35] So there's certain things too

[00:17:37] that it feels humble,

[00:17:42] but it's not humble to kind of mute God's call on people.

[00:17:48] But there's the other side you said is how can it be wrong to do it.

[00:17:53] You needed this, you needed that.

[00:17:56] And so are we going to lecture them

[00:17:59] in what they're failing at everything

[00:18:02] or encourage them to take them back to church

[00:18:05] and how they have that relationship

[00:18:08] versus stepping down on them.

[00:18:11] Are we going to step down or are we going to push up?

[00:18:14] It's an opportunity to draw attention to personal accountability.

[00:18:19] I think for me that's the biggest point there

[00:18:23] is that we're all personal accountable to God.

[00:18:27] And really if you're sitting there listening to this,

[00:18:31] that's one of the messages that we really need to understand.

[00:18:34] And wake up.

[00:18:35] Yeah.

[00:18:36] And that's one of the wonderful gifts I think of our Coverage Apple Heritage.

[00:18:40] It's that God is just using normal people.

[00:18:44] And there's not this like clergy, lady distinction.

[00:18:48] And so I think that we can speak authoritatively

[00:18:50] not because of our let's say pastoral office, let's say,

[00:18:55] but because this is what God's word says.

[00:18:57] And so we want this to...

[00:19:00] This should speak loud and clear.

[00:19:04] So I just think it's a great question to think about.

[00:19:06] And as I think Hannah said, I haven't thought of this before.

[00:19:10] Many of us haven't.

[00:19:11] We default more towards one or the other.

[00:19:14] Guys, I got more ranting to do, so I gotta...

[00:19:19] Rant number six.

[00:19:21] Be sensitive to non-Christians and new people.

[00:19:28] Keep in mind that although our audience

[00:19:32] primarily is going to be Christians week after week,

[00:19:35] there is like an ongoing invitation to bring your friends,

[00:19:40] bring your relatives, invite people to church.

[00:19:44] So it doesn't mean that we should exclusively aim everything

[00:19:48] towards the minority that might be there

[00:19:51] or the minority that's there week in and week out.

[00:19:55] But we address, we honor, we speak to

[00:19:58] not just them but the concerns that they have,

[00:20:01] the objections that they have.

[00:20:04] That means that...

[00:20:06] And I'm kind of borrowing from Timothy Keller here,

[00:20:09] even if there aren't non-Christians in the room,

[00:20:12] talk as if there are

[00:20:14] because that communicates to those Christians that are there

[00:20:18] that this is a good place to bring my non-Christian friends.

[00:20:22] And they're not going to be mocked nor dismissed,

[00:20:25] but their objections, their thoughts, their questions

[00:20:28] will be answered thoughtfully and carefully.

[00:20:32] And this is my rant, upon rant,

[00:20:34] and our biggest pet peeve is I...

[00:20:38] All the teachers at Calvary Cork,

[00:20:39] I always insist that they banish this phrase

[00:20:43] from their vocabulary which is...

[00:20:45] And as we all know,

[00:20:48] and we all grew up knowing this,

[00:20:51] and of course we all know this,

[00:20:55] instantly that is like inside your language

[00:20:58] that says that this is a group for people that have been here forever

[00:21:02] and that of course you know this,

[00:21:05] but then someone's there and they don't.

[00:21:07] And they just communicate, oh, this is not for you.

[00:21:09] And so there's ways to say well,

[00:21:12] and many of us grew up singing,

[00:21:14] salty the singing songbook, you know?

[00:21:17] Or we went to summer camp or we did this

[00:21:20] but some of you might not have and here's this and this.

[00:21:22] So I think the phrase as we all know,

[00:21:24] or I'm sure you're familiar with this,

[00:21:28] that should be gone.

[00:21:29] There's ways to say hey, most of you might know this

[00:21:31] or I grew up with this, maybe some of you did as well.

[00:21:35] So speak like non-Christians are in the room,

[00:21:39] privilege the text,

[00:21:41] it's not...

[00:21:43] Barring tonight,

[00:21:44] it's not about you ranting and giving all your thoughts

[00:21:47] but it is, it's like what does this passage say?

[00:21:53] Try to arrange even the points and the movements

[00:21:57] of your message to be connected with specific verses

[00:22:01] of the Bible and read them and highlight how

[00:22:06] the things that I'm gonna say for the next few minutes

[00:22:08] are connected to this verse.

[00:22:11] And I like to even say to draw people's attention to it

[00:22:14] and guys do you see what verse four says?

[00:22:16] Hang on, let's look. Let's look at verse four says.

[00:22:19] If this is true and it is, it means blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:22:23] But like pointing to specific passages,

[00:22:26] pointing to verses showing that it's the text

[00:22:29] that is authoritative.

[00:22:31] For this reason I always bring a physical Bible up

[00:22:37] you know and of course like except for tonight.

[00:22:41] You know like on my printouts like I have the verses here

[00:22:43] and so do you when you print out your notes.

[00:22:46] The verses are there.

[00:22:47] I think it's a powerful symbol.

[00:22:50] Is it culture ground?

[00:22:51] Yes it is and of course but I think it's a nice thing

[00:22:54] to turn the pages of the Bible

[00:22:55] and even show this is where your authority,

[00:22:58] the authority comes from.

[00:22:59] That's a personal preference.

[00:23:01] You don't have to do so

[00:23:02] but I always kind of insist on the preachers

[00:23:05] that come up record to just bring a Bible

[00:23:07] into the pulpit.

[00:23:08] Call me crazy.

[00:23:10] And this is one that I'm struggling with even tonight.

[00:23:19] Don't have too much material.

[00:23:24] You always are going to have more to say.

[00:23:30] A few points that are thought through,

[00:23:34] that are well developed, that are clear

[00:23:36] is better than 13 points that are not.

[00:23:42] Resist the urge to tell everyone

[00:23:45] everything you learned about the passage

[00:23:47] but do the thoughtful prayerful work of saying

[00:23:51] what is coming to the forefront?

[00:23:53] What do these people need to know at this time?

[00:23:56] What are the cultural objections to God's word right now

[00:23:59] and then how can this be shown

[00:24:02] as good wonderful beautiful true and useful?

[00:24:05] I love how Spurgeon says it.

[00:24:08] We can say so much in a single sermon

[00:24:11] that we give a field of wheat

[00:24:13] instead of a loaf of bread.

[00:24:17] A field of wheat is wonderful

[00:24:19] but it doesn't help a hungry person

[00:24:22] and so we take some of the harvest

[00:24:25] of the field of wheat that we discovered

[00:24:27] throughout that week

[00:24:28] and then we make it presentable,

[00:24:31] we make it edible, we make it delicious

[00:24:34] and we bring it to people that it might nourish them.

[00:24:37] So it's a loaf of bread that your people need

[00:24:39] rather than a field of wheat.

[00:24:46] Go back.

[00:24:47] Yeah, do what you can to minimize distractions as well.

[00:24:52] When I teach I try to look as like respectable as I can.

[00:24:57] I've got, this is a personal thing.

[00:25:00] Like I've been collecting tattoos

[00:25:03] for the past couple years.

[00:25:05] When I preach I always preach in long sleeves.

[00:25:08] I know that tattoos aren't that big of a deal anymore

[00:25:11] but like 20 years ago they were

[00:25:14] or 30 years ago they were.

[00:25:16] I just try to make it easy for old Irish grandmas

[00:25:20] to come to church and not be distracted about things.

[00:25:24] Now that's a personal thought or conviction.

[00:25:27] I happen to live somewhere where it's cold all the time

[00:25:30] so I don't mind wearing long sleeves

[00:25:32] but that's maybe just something.

[00:25:34] What's the equivalent in your context?

[00:25:38] Is it keys that are jingling?

[00:25:41] I used to fiddle with my ring a lot when I was younger

[00:25:45] and try to minimize those things.

[00:25:47] I would point you towards an episode

[00:25:49] of the Expositors Collective Podcast

[00:25:51] starring Nick Harvey

[00:25:52] and the episode is called

[00:25:55] What Should I Do With My Hands?

[00:25:57] And it gets into some of the nitty gritty

[00:25:59] of how do we minimize the distractions

[00:26:01] that can cause people to just focus on something small

[00:26:05] when there's something so big and so important.

[00:26:10] This one has no need for explanation I think.

[00:26:14] Don't express as a personal opinion

[00:26:17] what God says in the Word.

[00:26:19] It's a fact.

[00:26:21] Also don't declare as authoritative

[00:26:23] what's only your opinion.

[00:26:25] Say this is my opinion.

[00:26:27] And I've found, I've gotten all kinds of thank yous

[00:26:32] and appreciations when I'd be teaching a passage

[00:26:35] and then I'd say,

[00:26:36] and guys my friends this is just kind of my thought on this.

[00:26:39] And even like step aside from the pulpit to say

[00:26:42] like I've studied it and I think this

[00:26:44] I'm not sure yet other Christians disagree

[00:26:47] but here's my opinion on this

[00:26:49] but here's what I'm sure of.

[00:26:50] Verse five says this and let's get back into this.

[00:26:53] It's going to be a useful thing that I found helpful

[00:26:55] and don't apologize.

[00:27:00] And don't apologize at the very beginning of your message.

[00:27:05] Amen.

[00:27:07] I've, people do it all the time.

[00:27:09] Younger, newer, nervous Bible teachers.

[00:27:13] Walk up.

[00:27:15] Well hey everybody.

[00:27:16] It's been such a busy week.

[00:27:18] My kid was sick this.

[00:27:19] I barely had time to put anything together.

[00:27:21] And also I'm young.

[00:27:23] Also I'm an experienced guys.

[00:27:24] I don't even know what I'm talking about.

[00:27:25] Anyway, open your Bible.

[00:27:29] I've heard that's an exaggeration of it

[00:27:32] but a lot of times we feel,

[00:27:34] we know that there is, as Connor said earlier on,

[00:27:37] we know the weight of God's Word and God's truth.

[00:27:41] Well just then do the best that you can

[00:27:42] to show that rather than say

[00:27:45] this is not going to be as good as it could be

[00:27:47] but listen to me.

[00:27:49] Just try to do a good job

[00:27:50] and try to apologize.

[00:27:51] Just communicate as clearly as you can.

[00:27:55] And then also on that note,

[00:27:56] as I mentioned earlier on,

[00:27:57] like your first thing that you say

[00:27:59] should be thought through.

[00:28:00] When I was younger, my sermon notes would,

[00:28:03] you know it'd be like verse one,

[00:28:05] verse two, verse three, verse four.

[00:28:06] And then at the beginning I'd write

[00:28:08] introduction.

[00:28:09] And I would just make up the introduction on the fly.

[00:28:12] I kind of walk up there and just kind of

[00:28:14] like say some stuff.

[00:28:15] Anyway now verse one.

[00:28:17] I've learned that introduction actually is

[00:28:19] really important to communicate

[00:28:21] so it's like the conductor on the train

[00:28:24] being like you know, toot toot all aboard.

[00:28:27] We're going this direction.

[00:28:29] Come join me and use those opening moments

[00:28:32] to invite people on the train

[00:28:34] and then take them in that direction

[00:28:37] and yeah illustrate well.

[00:28:41] I don't have time for that.

[00:28:43] But the expositors collect the podcast

[00:28:46] two weeks ago

[00:28:49] was one of the best episodes I think ever

[00:28:52] was with Dr. Jim Wilson.

[00:28:54] He wrote a book called

[00:28:55] Illustrating Well

[00:28:56] and the whole book is about how to use

[00:28:59] sermon illustrations in a non-distracting way

[00:29:02] that do justice to the passage.

[00:29:06] And so he has more to say on this

[00:29:09] than I can.

[00:29:10] I want to honor your time

[00:29:11] and I think that's the end.

[00:29:14] Oh yeah, you should also end well.

[00:29:19] Alright, Q&A panel.

[00:29:21] Come back up here.

[00:29:22] We got some time for some more questions.

[00:29:25] You really should end well.

[00:29:28] But I didn't write a good introduction.

[00:29:36] Yes, what's your name?

[00:29:38] Hi Jimmy.

[00:29:39] What's the question?

[00:29:40] When it comes to teaching

[00:29:41] and you said bringing up your Bible

[00:29:42] you try to bring up the Bible more

[00:29:43] maybe an assemble.

[00:29:46] But wouldn't it be important

[00:29:47] for your teacher to teach the flock

[00:29:51] how to turn the big know-your-sword

[00:29:56] so to speak rather than quickly be able

[00:29:58] to just like Google it or have a map?

[00:30:01] Like isn't there more importance

[00:30:02] that actual real paper Bible

[00:30:03] or is that kind of just a pass by the office

[00:30:06] or sort of digital in these things?

[00:30:08] Yeah, I don't know.

[00:30:10] I'm going to answer that

[00:30:11] with just another anecdote.

[00:30:13] I read an article

[00:30:15] actually I think it was in a

[00:30:16] Cabbage Apple magazine about

[00:30:20] pastors in Iraq

[00:30:21] and they would specifically

[00:30:23] not bring a Bible up

[00:30:26] and memorize it

[00:30:27] and they would show

[00:30:29] they would be teaching their congregations

[00:30:30] the importance of hiding God's word in your heart

[00:30:32] and being able to recite it.

[00:30:34] So you know it's a cultural thing

[00:30:37] in Iraq, in Ireland,

[00:30:39] and in Santa Maria

[00:30:40] there's different things that you can kind of communicate

[00:30:42] but like we're not just teaching

[00:30:44] during the slot when we teach

[00:30:46] the way that we carry ourselves

[00:30:48] the way we carry

[00:30:51] communicates something.

[00:30:52] So I've just kind of chosen to always

[00:30:55] insist that people have the hard copy

[00:30:57] where it's not the pages of the Bible

[00:30:59] that are inspired, it's like

[00:31:00] okay well

[00:31:02] it's not the printed pages

[00:31:04] that are important, it's the content

[00:31:06] but I think it's important to have it

[00:31:08] but I recognize some people do just fine

[00:31:11] from an iPad

[00:31:12] or from having it in their hearts.

[00:31:15] You know

[00:31:16] I'll give an analogy

[00:31:18] photography has been

[00:31:20] totally changed in about

[00:31:21] 20 years so

[00:31:23] it started around

[00:31:24] mid 1800s

[00:31:27] old school film

[00:31:29] it was a process and

[00:31:31] it was lengthy

[00:31:32] and obviously when the digital era came out

[00:31:35] and people started using digital cameras

[00:31:36] now everyone has a camera on your phone

[00:31:38] it's just changed everything

[00:31:41] but there's a whole new movement

[00:31:42] in our world today to get back to more analog

[00:31:45] versus digital

[00:31:46] because it's about this process

[00:31:48] it was a process that people are

[00:31:50] longing for. So personally

[00:31:53] I like what you're saying as far as

[00:31:54] I think challenging people, encouraging people

[00:31:56] to bring the Bible, I have a men's group that I lead

[00:31:59] I really highly encourage

[00:32:01] men to bring their Bibles

[00:32:02] I'm involved helping out with our youth group right now

[00:32:05] I

[00:32:06] every week I challenge them, I encourage them to bring their Bibles

[00:32:09] so I think there's something to be said about that

[00:32:11] but I want to say one thing that I think is important

[00:32:14] nobody

[00:32:14] for the first couple hundred years had a Bible

[00:32:17] and I think when we

[00:32:18] make that a standard that says this is what needs to be done

[00:32:22] because

[00:32:22] this seems like a culturally relevant thing

[00:32:25] I think we could be creating

[00:32:27] a potential

[00:32:29] means for

[00:32:33] self-righteousness if I can put it that way

[00:32:35] that's not anchoring in Scripture

[00:32:37] and that's

[00:32:38] circumventing the very foundations of what we're trying to emphasize

[00:32:42] though that being said

[00:32:43] I think it's very important to bring a Bible

[00:32:45] if you have a Bible, I think there's enough to be said

[00:32:47] that we are

[00:32:48] some people have 16 Bibles, that's fine

[00:32:50] but we don't use them

[00:32:52] so I think it's important to bring a Bible, read your Bible

[00:32:55] some tactile

[00:32:56] tangible thing

[00:32:58] but

[00:33:00] I have heard preachers

[00:33:02] that sometimes can guilt the same people

[00:33:04] that don't bring their Bible

[00:33:05] or make fun of them because they're turning

[00:33:07] to blue letter Bible

[00:33:09] or U version on their app

[00:33:11] I don't know if that's the proper route

[00:33:14] to go personally just because I think

[00:33:15] it's the world that we live in right now

[00:33:17] and people have different ways of accessing the thing

[00:33:19] I just want people to read the Bible

[00:33:21] become familiar with it

[00:33:23] technically I really don't care how they do it

[00:33:26] I just want them to do it

[00:33:27] but I also don't want

[00:33:28] as a person that believes in the importance of Scripture

[00:33:32] I don't want to lose

[00:33:34] the tactile

[00:33:36] tangible

[00:33:37] analog feel of turning pages

[00:33:40] and stuff like that so that's just my personal

[00:33:42] preference

[00:33:44] yeah, how dare we

[00:33:46] say something like that

[00:33:47] and then not give access

[00:33:49] to give a Bible then or have the opportunity

[00:33:51] to give something tactile to a person

[00:33:54] what you're saying Jimmy to me

[00:33:56] convicts me

[00:33:57] on two points in the sense that

[00:34:01] I need to be more consistent

[00:34:02] in offering

[00:34:03] who needs a Bible

[00:34:04] because we would have Bibles

[00:34:07] to be able to give

[00:34:08] and then Mike, do you do the thing

[00:34:11] where hey we're in Matthew 23

[00:34:13] and in our church Bibles

[00:34:15] we're in page 338

[00:34:17] or something like that

[00:34:18] that's extremely helpful

[00:34:20] at least on a practical level for a person that's never been

[00:34:23] maybe has never opened a Bible

[00:34:24] I remember when my dad gave my aunt

[00:34:27] her very first Bible she's like what do these numbers mean

[00:34:29] she didn't know what chapters and verses were

[00:34:31] so to have someone just to say

[00:34:33] hey you're invited

[00:34:35] to participate with us by

[00:34:37] turning to page 338 or something

[00:34:39] yeah, to that earlier point

[00:34:42] that's such a way of saying

[00:34:43] if you're new to this

[00:34:45] we're glad you're here

[00:34:46] and I preached somewhere last Sunday

[00:34:50] anonymous place

[00:34:51] and it's my habit

[00:34:53] I said hey we're in

[00:34:55] Philippians in the pew Bible

[00:34:57] it's page whatever

[00:34:59] and everyone laughed

[00:35:01] like I just made a joke

[00:35:03] and that kind of

[00:35:04] and what if someone was there

[00:35:06] the first Sunday of the year

[00:35:08] I made a new resolution I'm going to go back to church

[00:35:11] and then it's like oh, Philippians

[00:35:13] and then everyone laughs at the thoughts

[00:35:15] that somebody wouldn't know where Philippians chapter 3 is

[00:35:20] yeah

[00:35:20] I like what's more like the message you build

[00:35:27] on this page with a note is

[00:35:31] like

[00:35:32] oh

[00:35:34] that's like text

[00:35:36] shoreline shoreline shoreline

[00:35:38] shoreline

[00:35:40] level

[00:35:43] it's a walking part of

[00:35:44] it's time to services and our

[00:35:46] website and

[00:35:47] was not my

[00:35:49] and your phone number

[00:35:52] much brighter people in the community

[00:35:54] and

[00:35:56] and as he's saying that

[00:35:58] the ushers are walking down the aisle

[00:36:00] with bibles in their hands

[00:36:02] ready to hand them out to you

[00:36:04] like popcorn

[00:36:05] especially in the kids group, the youth group

[00:36:16] like guys don't be afraid

[00:36:18] to look up the table contents

[00:36:20] it's okay

[00:36:20] there's no guilt or shame about that

[00:36:22] you're trading a muscle to learn

[00:36:24] so I speak that

[00:36:26] because I don't ever want there to be

[00:36:28] like you said the in-center lane type thing

[00:36:30] and people that are not familiar with it

[00:36:32] they feel convosier-sized

[00:36:33] because they're not as adaptable as others

[00:36:36] so

[00:36:39] yes, I think you might actually

[00:36:41] change gears a little bit

[00:36:42] you've done episode

[00:36:44] we were just talking about it

[00:36:46] we're talking about sermon evaluations

[00:36:49] so it's actually kind of a question for all of you

[00:36:51] as preachers

[00:36:53] you're always being evaluated

[00:36:54] someone's going to go I didn't like what you said here

[00:36:55] I didn't like what you said there

[00:36:56] but do each of you have either a close group of friends

[00:36:59] or your elders

[00:37:00] or is there somebody that you will come to you after

[00:37:04] case in point my wife will to me

[00:37:06] you really sucked it

[00:37:08] but

[00:37:08] but you have somebody that can come to you

[00:37:12] and say hey, you said this

[00:37:14] I don't know that that point

[00:37:16] was necessarily made

[00:37:17] or even like you're fiddling with your ring

[00:37:20] the whole time as you were preaching

[00:37:21] is there someone that you have personally

[00:37:23] that's close to you can meet with

[00:37:25] I know Ted does

[00:37:26] Ted live north

[00:37:28] they do that at their church

[00:37:31] they have an evaluation you've evaluated

[00:37:34] it's not more of a Nick Katie thing

[00:37:36] is that Nick?

[00:37:38] sorry, but is there somebody

[00:37:39] that you have that's close that can evaluate you

[00:37:42] maybe in the sense of speaking to that

[00:37:44] as for whether it be for a Bible study

[00:37:46] or even a youth group leader that like

[00:37:48] hey, I noticed that you said this

[00:37:50] to help you get better technically

[00:37:53] thanks, Ed, you should talk about Glenn

[00:37:55] what's that?

[00:37:56] you should talk about Glenn

[00:37:57] yeah, I have a pastor in the church

[00:37:59] he passed it for 35 years before he retired

[00:38:02] he said he retired

[00:38:04] he's our church

[00:38:05] and so yeah, he has permission to come

[00:38:08] and correct me

[00:38:08] he's very good, he says he's not ever going to hand me a hand grenade

[00:38:11] for the second service

[00:38:12] that's not really what I call it

[00:38:14] so I came from a church

[00:38:17] that did four services

[00:38:19] and after the first service

[00:38:21] what we would do is

[00:38:24] we would gather

[00:38:25] a group of elders would gather

[00:38:26] and there would be, hey this was really good

[00:38:28] maybe we could do about this, maybe we could do about that

[00:38:30] again, no hand grenades

[00:38:32] because you just get, I can't handle that

[00:38:35] and then when we have done teaching go-hards

[00:38:37] at Shoreline

[00:38:38] we create a culture where we can do that

[00:38:41] and there's been a couple of times

[00:38:42] where someone's come to say

[00:38:44] this or that, again in love

[00:38:46] but it's created a culture of building up

[00:38:49] when I went through

[00:38:51] school and ministry what we also did

[00:38:52] is after the teaching portion of the school

[00:38:54] and ministry we did part two

[00:38:56] which was a year of coming together

[00:38:58] and preaching in front of each other

[00:39:00] and giving feedback

[00:39:02] and it's awkward

[00:39:04] but man if it gets the gospel across better

[00:39:06] we'll all take it, everyone

[00:39:08] it's okay

[00:39:09] so it's totally worth it

[00:39:10] I don't know what that looks like for you guys

[00:39:12] but creating a culture where you're willing to

[00:39:15] whether you're with the we ones

[00:39:18] or whether you're with the senior states

[00:39:19] or whatever

[00:39:20] there's a culture of moving to

[00:39:24] lovingly help each other do this

[00:39:25] better and why wouldn't

[00:39:29] one of the ways the women at Shoreline

[00:39:32] do is after our Bible studies

[00:39:35] the group of us who teach

[00:39:37] give a two wows

[00:39:39] and try this on a text

[00:39:42] so that it's constructive

[00:39:44] criticism

[00:39:45] and it's simple and it's easy

[00:39:47] it doesn't take a lot of effort

[00:39:50] and that's been really meaningful

[00:39:52] to my own in the church

[00:39:53] it feels like the community

[00:39:55] I think if you're in a place of teaching

[00:39:57] no matter what level

[00:39:58] whether it's little kids

[00:40:00] or having an opportunity to pass their church

[00:40:02] whatever we should all

[00:40:05] we don't want to do better

[00:40:06] I think that's the general

[00:40:08] heart of it all

[00:40:09] and that could come through an actual

[00:40:12] trusted companion that you asked

[00:40:14] prior like hey could you give me some positive feedback

[00:40:17] or it could just be people that come up afterwards

[00:40:19] and they're like hey you weren't really clear

[00:40:21] in this what did you mean by that

[00:40:23] and you know some people

[00:40:25] obviously ask questions and usually

[00:40:27] if those questions are from

[00:40:29] some level of unclarity

[00:40:31] maybe there's something that I could learn

[00:40:33] to communicate better so sometimes I'll ask people

[00:40:35] is there something I could have said a little bit

[00:40:37] differently that might have been more

[00:40:39] helpful for you to have understood this

[00:40:41] so I'm harvesting information

[00:40:43] as I'm asking these questions

[00:40:45] and getting feedback

[00:40:47] and it doesn't even look like critique

[00:40:49] necessarily it just looks like

[00:40:51] I'm learning, I'm growing, I want to do better

[00:40:53] and grow in that and tuck it away

[00:40:55] and think about it next time I'm going to have an opportunity

[00:40:57] to teach and communicate of like

[00:40:59] what are, I'm asking these questions like filters

[00:41:01] like what can I say that's going to be

[00:41:03] a little bit more clarifying in the content

[00:41:05] that I'm going to be communicating so

[00:41:08] yeah

[00:41:09] I think connected to that a great question

[00:41:11] to ask when someone does say hey

[00:41:13] good sermon pastor, good sermon

[00:41:15] to ask the particular question

[00:41:17] of oh what was

[00:41:19] particular about that to help me

[00:41:21] for my future study

[00:41:24] or vice versa

[00:41:25] that was really lame, well what was lame about it

[00:41:28] you know because I need to know

[00:41:29] I need to know about it

[00:41:30] also contextually too if you know that you're having

[00:41:33] your sermons recorded listen to them

[00:41:35] afterwards, I am

[00:41:37] my worst critic I honestly am

[00:41:39] but I try to do that on a weekly basis

[00:41:41] to kind of just think through and say okay

[00:41:43] what's going to be a more

[00:41:45] what's a clear way to

[00:41:47] impart this to people

[00:41:49] the next time and actually there's parts

[00:41:51] I keep all my notes in my documents

[00:41:53] folder on my computer I'll make

[00:41:56] post sermon notes

[00:41:57] on the side if I ever teach

[00:41:59] top mathy 23 this last Sunday

[00:42:02] I'll listen to

[00:42:04] that message

[00:42:05] and then I'll put some post notes on

[00:42:07] that document so if I ever preach it again

[00:42:10] I know there needs to be some clarity

[00:42:11] to impart to the next person

[00:42:13] to the next group

[00:42:15] you listen to your recording

[00:42:19] as a part of the difference

[00:42:20] it being yourself

[00:42:25] taking yourself first in life

[00:42:27] I was faithful in doing the work

[00:42:29] and just you know I did my best

[00:42:31] like you said

[00:42:32] versus like it all being rose

[00:42:34] you know I didn't hope to do

[00:42:36] or anything like that

[00:42:37] like I

[00:42:40] I think over time

[00:42:43] I have taken off like the rose tinted

[00:42:45] glasses of looking at myself

[00:42:47] and the notes and

[00:42:48] the message to clear

[00:42:50] and I think Mike and I we talk a lot about

[00:42:52] how we've taught or what our preparation

[00:42:55] is in the week to help with that

[00:42:59] I

[00:43:00] I think the mantle is too heavy

[00:43:02] to think about yourself

[00:43:03] in that case

[00:43:05] there's too much at stake

[00:43:07] in preaching and speaking to

[00:43:09] your community group like you're doing

[00:43:11] Jimmy

[00:43:12] to just say oh man what I just said was

[00:43:15] whatever Mike and I have

[00:43:17] a consistent joke

[00:43:18] I don't know if he's going to appreciate me saying this

[00:43:20] but we heard one preacher say

[00:43:22] I'm preaching better than you're listening

[00:43:24] to the congregation

[00:43:25] I'm preaching better than you're listening

[00:43:28] and to us I'm like oh man

[00:43:31] cringy

[00:43:31] super cringy so I would never have

[00:43:34] that type of attitude to listen

[00:43:36] to my message again

[00:43:37] and be like and I was just a homerun

[00:43:39] or something like that

[00:43:40] yeah on that and then

[00:43:43] you had a question I would say

[00:43:45] a practical tip towards that

[00:43:48] is give it like 48 hours

[00:43:49] before you listen to it

[00:43:51] like they be like

[00:43:53] because God can use

[00:43:55] a bad sermon to great effect

[00:43:56] someone can get saved

[00:43:58] or whatever

[00:44:00] and then you just buzzing off that

[00:44:01] and then on the drive home you like

[00:44:03] pop it on and listen to it

[00:44:05] and oh yeah that's when God saved that person

[00:44:09] you know

[00:44:11] or the other ends too

[00:44:14] so it's good

[00:44:15] to have some time

[00:44:16] live a little bit and then you can come back to it

[00:44:19] with more critical assessment

[00:44:21] just like Brian said every phone has a camera

[00:44:23] every phone now has a voice recorder

[00:44:25] so just you know

[00:44:27] on there and listen to it

[00:44:28] I was just going to say

[00:44:30] before Easter service

[00:44:32] Ed will pop and run through his sermon

[00:44:34] with some of us in the room

[00:44:36] and you know and it's

[00:44:39] that was the first time I'd ever

[00:44:40] had done that but it was

[00:44:42] really cool because he would say

[00:44:45] give an example

[00:44:46] and then like you know

[00:44:47] I don't know what you were talking about

[00:44:50] he totally lost me there

[00:44:52] and so we helped him figure out

[00:44:53] what he was trying to say and give him a better

[00:44:56] something that more people would be able to relate to

[00:45:00] and that's just been really cool

[00:45:02] especially like before Easter

[00:45:05] when you're hoping that you're going to have people

[00:45:06] who don't know Jesus coming maybe

[00:45:10] a good example

[00:45:15] have any of you guys taken like speaking classes

[00:45:18] like how to communicate effectively

[00:45:21] or is it just learning from doing

[00:45:25] I did drama for

[00:45:29] what? it's a legitimate

[00:45:31] interest alright

[00:45:32] some people make a lot of money off of it

[00:45:37] yeah in high school I did

[00:45:39] drama for all four years

[00:45:40] and four years

[00:45:42] yeah you're committed

[00:45:43] I was the lead of the senior play

[00:45:48] not that you asked but I

[00:45:50] wanted to just work that in there

[00:45:54] but apart from that

[00:45:56] no

[00:45:57] there are there's an organization called

[00:46:00] Toastmasters which is

[00:46:02] like a public speaking thing

[00:46:04] you could listen to it more on

[00:46:06] Nick Harvey's episode what do I do with my hands

[00:46:09] so that does exist

[00:46:11] I've known Christians who have gone to it

[00:46:14] for the goal of

[00:46:15] improving and preaching but

[00:46:17] I haven't you

[00:46:19] I've never I mean I had

[00:46:21] I've listened to like courses and stuff like that

[00:46:23] you know just

[00:46:25] out of curiosity is there anything I can

[00:46:27] again like I said earlier kind of the baseline for me

[00:46:29] is like I just want to learn I'm going to do better

[00:46:30] I want to grow if there's different

[00:46:32] methods or techniques or things that I can learn

[00:46:35] to grow

[00:46:37] then I want to be able to

[00:46:39] avail myself of that

[00:46:41] at the same time

[00:46:43] I also think

[00:46:44] you can try to

[00:46:47] reach for so much of a polish

[00:46:48] that you lose sight of the power

[00:46:51] the Holy Spirit

[00:46:52] the Holy Spirit is just

[00:46:54] sometimes God uses bad sermons

[00:46:57] Spurgeon was saved by

[00:46:59] a guy

[00:47:00] hearing a really bad sermon

[00:47:02] he even later in his life talks about

[00:47:04] I was just one of the worst sermons he's ever heard

[00:47:06] it was definitely not Christ centered

[00:47:08] but it was a context

[00:47:10] in his life that God used it

[00:47:12] to really spark salvation in his heart

[00:47:15] so I think there's a balance between

[00:47:17] as an individual

[00:47:18] saying I really want to grow and learn

[00:47:20] but at the same time not wanting to condemn myself

[00:47:22] or have a

[00:47:24] pity party feeling like I'm not more advanced

[00:47:26] than I should be

[00:47:27] that can be almost more of an emphasis upon

[00:47:30] an individual that's not healthy

[00:47:32] either because that leads to shame

[00:47:34] and guilt and maybe running from a calling

[00:47:36] that God might be wanting to use

[00:47:37] at the same time catering to

[00:47:40] more of a polished feel

[00:47:42] gosh the Holy Spirit moved

[00:47:44] on the early church

[00:47:45] and these were not learned people

[00:47:48] necessarily in terms of the typical

[00:47:51] prototypical context

[00:47:52] of learned people

[00:47:53] and God used them so I think it's important

[00:47:55] to really put it all in a good

[00:47:57] proper balance

[00:47:58] so that's why you're there

[00:48:10] along those lines

[00:48:11] can you guys share some

[00:48:14] encouragement for

[00:48:16] those of us who have maybe

[00:48:19] taught a message

[00:48:20] and just felt that it went really really terrible

[00:48:22] and like you just go home and swim

[00:48:23] awful and maybe you don't ever want to do it again

[00:48:30] maybe you guys would have felt that before

[00:48:32] but you know because this is a gift that you have to kind of

[00:48:35] hone in front of people

[00:48:37] so like you have like if God

[00:48:39] His College says you want to keep going

[00:48:40] whether it's Sunday School or Women's

[00:48:42] or being a pastor or whatever

[00:48:43] but it can be so discouraging

[00:48:45] if you feel like you hit

[00:48:47] not for them

[00:48:53] well two weeks ago

[00:48:55] I preached

[00:48:55] no that's not what I was asking

[00:49:00] yeah I

[00:49:00] preached I thought I'm really bad

[00:49:02] sermon two weeks ago at Calvary Cork

[00:49:06] and a lot of things

[00:49:08] went wrong worship wasn't great

[00:49:10] there's a storm outside

[00:49:13] there's leaks

[00:49:14] in the church everything and the sermon

[00:49:16] also was bad

[00:49:20] and yeah we had

[00:49:22] chores and cleaning to do and I just like

[00:49:23] I put on a podcast

[00:49:26] not exposters collective

[00:49:27] but it was just like people discussing

[00:49:29] the truth of like Jesus said

[00:49:31] I will build my church and the gates of hell won't prevail against it

[00:49:34] and I was just like okay well

[00:49:36] it's like if Satan can't destroy the church

[00:49:37] then like my bad sermon isn't going to destroy the church

[00:49:40] so I encouraged

[00:49:42] myself in that

[00:49:43] I think that there's ways

[00:49:46] like in one Samuel 31

[00:49:50] David's family is

[00:49:51] kidnapped and Ziklag is burned and all that

[00:49:54] and then everyone's turning against him

[00:49:55] and then in one Samuel 31

[00:49:58] 31 verse 8 says David

[00:50:00] encouraged himself and the Lord

[00:50:01] and I think that

[00:50:03] maybe for those of us in a public position

[00:50:06] who did something

[00:50:07] in public that didn't go as good as we thought it was

[00:50:09] we do need to encourage ourselves

[00:50:11] in the Lord

[00:50:13] maybe not as you're standing

[00:50:15] by the front door shaking everyone's hand

[00:50:17] being like I didn't do a very good job

[00:50:19] in hopes that then they'll say

[00:50:21] oh no pastor you did a good job

[00:50:22] I think that there's ways to use influence

[00:50:26] or even pity

[00:50:27] in a way that doesn't do yourself any favors

[00:50:29] so I think that for me

[00:50:31] I needed to encourage myself in the Lord

[00:50:33] and use

[00:50:34] the White Horse and podcast

[00:50:36] to encourage me

[00:50:38] even though I'm not confessionally reformed

[00:50:40] I have to say that

[00:50:43] you know I would say like

[00:50:45] some of it's like

[00:50:46] expectations of just or anything

[00:50:49] or expectations that

[00:50:51] all you have is what you have

[00:50:53] like you know most

[00:50:54] people are not

[00:50:57] high level super polish

[00:50:59] communicators

[00:51:00] we just are able to communicate what we have

[00:51:03] and stumble and we repeat ourselves

[00:51:05] and

[00:51:05] we repeat ourselves

[00:51:07] you know these might be problems that we oftentimes

[00:51:09] like pick up and they might drive some people

[00:51:13] really frustrated

[00:51:14] and but again at the same time it's like

[00:51:16] this is what I have, I'm doing the best that I have

[00:51:19] so there are times for sure

[00:51:21] I've communicated things

[00:51:22] and I've maybe I've said something

[00:51:25] in that sermon that I can't take back

[00:51:27] that definitely brought a fence

[00:51:28] I was doing an Easter sermon one time

[00:51:30] and we met at a very large

[00:51:33] venue for our Easter service

[00:51:34] we had a lot of people there

[00:51:35] and I said something about

[00:51:39] I don't know what the context was

[00:51:41] but midgets, you used the word midgets

[00:51:43] yeah you can see what it is about

[00:51:44] so afterwards a midget came up

[00:51:47] and it was deeply offended

[00:51:49] and I was so unaware

[00:51:51] of that

[00:51:52] that they said

[00:51:54] I was thinking oh they're going to come up

[00:51:55] and congratulate me and just thank you

[00:51:57] and they're like hey FYI

[00:51:59] you know I'm a dwarf

[00:52:01] and what you said was very offensive

[00:52:03] and hurtful to me and I was just like

[00:52:05] and in my mind

[00:52:07] my mind immediately went to everything else

[00:52:09] that I communicated like I couldn't

[00:52:11] not focus on that

[00:52:13] and again probably

[00:52:14] some people wouldn't have even been thinking about

[00:52:17] that but I was and I felt really bad

[00:52:19] I felt really bad that I offended this person

[00:52:21] I was like I was upset

[00:52:23] with myself for that

[00:52:24] so I think that can play into a

[00:52:27] cycle so here's what I'm going to say

[00:52:29] that for me when I have

[00:52:31] gotten into the cycles and I have

[00:52:33] multiple times

[00:52:34] I realized that using those cycles of self-pity

[00:52:37] and feeling really bad

[00:52:39] if it's a really high level

[00:52:41] like a really hard

[00:52:43] core bad case of

[00:52:45] feeling that it'll take me out

[00:52:47] for a day or two you know

[00:52:49] and then I realized like after a day or two

[00:52:50] I'll be back on my feet

[00:52:51] I realized it was grace, I realized Jesus loves me

[00:52:55] I realized I'm a son

[00:52:56] I realized that some god has

[00:52:59] a way of blocking things from other people's

[00:53:01] years and so it's not as bad maybe

[00:53:03] as I thought it was

[00:53:04] and maybe I'm being hypercritical of myself

[00:53:06] and what I said and is there justifiable

[00:53:09] reason to be frustrated with what I said?

[00:53:10] Absolutely but then I use

[00:53:13] it as an opportunity of learning

[00:53:14] I'm saying okay I know never

[00:53:16] to use that word again

[00:53:18] in any form of communication

[00:53:21] publicly

[00:53:23] and so

[00:53:24] I use it as an opportunity to kind of grow

[00:53:27] after, I do create

[00:53:28] margin to say I'm going to be in the dumps

[00:53:30] for the next two days, sorry just let me

[00:53:32] stay in bed and I don't want to get out

[00:53:34] you know but then

[00:53:36] I grow from that so that's

[00:53:38] guys if you feel bad over those circumstances

[00:53:40] that's okay just give it

[00:53:42] space

[00:53:44] that the Holy Spirit

[00:53:45] come in and shed some light

[00:53:47] you'll grow and you'll do better

[00:53:48] but don't use it as an opportunity to

[00:53:51] just completely keep yourself out of the

[00:53:52] race and I'll never do this again because I'm a horrible human being

[00:53:55] now use it as an opportunity for growth

[00:53:57] that's my thought

[00:53:59] Everybody teaches their shoreline the first time they go up

[00:54:01] whether it's

[00:54:02] smaller groups that are here, whether it's a Sunday morning

[00:54:05] we get two phrases

[00:54:07] and the first one is

[00:54:09] nobody's here to hear you

[00:54:10] don't worry about it nobody's here to hear you

[00:54:13] and so that front-loads it a little bit

[00:54:15] where just be faithful to work

[00:54:17] right?

[00:54:19] I'll probably lean closer

[00:54:20] to the heavier structure and all that than those

[00:54:23] but if I'm just faithful to work

[00:54:25] that's the way

[00:54:26] the other, the second thing everybody

[00:54:29] hears is don't suck

[00:54:33] which is mostly a joke to let

[00:54:34] lighten me up

[00:54:36] because we don't really mean that

[00:54:40] in my personal context here

[00:54:42] I grew up in this church

[00:54:44] and then

[00:54:45] you know be on the missions field for some years and then back

[00:54:47] so 99% of my bad terms are here

[00:54:50] with this congregation

[00:54:53] and I remember

[00:54:54] in growing up and having an opportunity

[00:54:56] to speak on a Wednesday night

[00:54:58] I spoke topically on John the Baptist

[00:55:01] and I quit early

[00:55:02] because I just, I couldn't get it together

[00:55:04] and I pretty much

[00:55:06] I think I've talked about this

[00:55:07] before but I cried in this parking lot

[00:55:10] just being like

[00:55:11] I'm never doing that again, it's over

[00:55:13] and I just echo what Brian said

[00:55:15] the next day it's not over

[00:55:18] the Lord is still able to use it

[00:55:21] and

[00:55:21] I

[00:55:24] I should

[00:55:25] move as like you're saying away from the pulpit

[00:55:27] to say this is my opinion

[00:55:30] if you've been faithful to the text

[00:55:32] if you have

[00:55:33] been honorable to God in your personal study

[00:55:36] and your public proclamation

[00:55:37] and there was still some humiliating thing

[00:55:40] that happened

[00:55:41] whether technical issues

[00:55:43] whether your flight was down

[00:55:45] whatever it was

[00:55:50] that's a total revealing of your humanity

[00:55:54] and therefore that reveals

[00:55:57] a beautiful thing about our relationship with God

[00:56:00] is that he is so

[00:56:02] okay with the messiness of who we are

[00:56:04] and that in a way

[00:56:06] our humiliation can actually bring about his exaltation

[00:56:10] out of just revealing

[00:56:11] I'm an authentic person

[00:56:12] that just messes up

[00:56:14] that has a green thing in my teeth

[00:56:16] and God will get his glory

[00:56:19] even out of

[00:56:20] out of that

[00:56:22] men with camel hair

[00:56:24] grasshoppers and other things

[00:56:31] yeah

[00:56:32] we need two more questions?

[00:56:33] time?

[00:56:34] time?

[00:56:36] okay, you and then you

[00:56:38] two things

[00:56:39] kind of tailing on what Connor was saying

[00:56:41] I was sharing with my table how

[00:56:43] I had a good friend in college

[00:56:45] who was an artist

[00:56:46] and she made this beautiful

[00:56:49] ceramic piece

[00:56:50] and it was titled I'm sorry

[00:56:52] but this is my first time being human

[00:56:55] and I never forgot it

[00:56:57] and it brought a lot of humbleness to me

[00:56:59] and it was a reminder

[00:57:00] that yeah this is

[00:57:03] our first time being 15

[00:57:04] this is our first time being 28

[00:57:06] this is our first time being 42 whatever age we are

[00:57:09] so I found a lot of God's grace

[00:57:11] and that ceramic piece

[00:57:13] so I just wanted to share that

[00:57:16] so my question

[00:57:17] the question for you guys

[00:57:18] is and I know that this is a very big question

[00:57:21] it may not be answered

[00:57:22] simply or within one sentence

[00:57:24] but how did you guys know

[00:57:27] that

[00:57:28] God would have you to fulfill

[00:57:30] these pastoral roles

[00:57:32] how did you know

[00:57:33] the timing, the calling

[00:57:40] nepotism

[00:57:55] my personal story is

[00:57:57] an Ethiopian man when I was 4 years old

[00:57:59] and I was annoying to the employee

[00:58:00] and said I was going to be a pastor

[00:58:02] and be a pastor in the future

[00:58:03] and that is not

[00:58:06] I think this is a work of the spirit

[00:58:08] and it took 18 years

[00:58:11] of honestly

[00:58:13] never wanting to be that

[00:58:14] in order for the Holy Spirit to grab ahold

[00:58:17] and say this is who you are

[00:58:18] and the way that he got ahold of me

[00:58:21] was he confirmed it in scripture

[00:58:23] he confirmed it by other people

[00:58:26] speaking into my life

[00:58:27] being part of a community within the body

[00:58:29] and being submissive

[00:58:31] to leadership

[00:58:33] as they work on you in disciple you

[00:58:35] I think those are the three biggest dynamics

[00:58:38] confirmation of scripture

[00:58:39] fellowship of believers

[00:58:41] and leadership within the body

[00:58:43] to say this is we believe

[00:58:45] this is we are being called for this

[00:58:49] I shared an illustration

[00:58:51] this last Sunday

[00:58:53] about a guy who came up after

[00:58:55] on a Sunday morning

[00:58:56] and was like hey pastor great sermon

[00:58:59] what will it take for me to get

[00:59:00] up to there as he's pointing to the pulpit

[00:59:04] and that to me

[00:59:05] was a revealing of

[00:59:06] not a calling whatsoever

[00:59:09] because to me that reveals

[00:59:10] a

[00:59:14] I don't know

[00:59:15] I don't have the word for it

[00:59:17] an achievement

[00:59:19] rather than a mantle

[00:59:21] and when we think of it

[00:59:23] as an achievement or a success

[00:59:24] or a career

[00:59:26] that thing gets really really

[00:59:28] dicey in my heart and my mind

[00:59:30] especially when you're valuing other people

[00:59:32] when a person almost doesn't want it

[00:59:35] because of the mantle

[00:59:36] that's coming upon them

[00:59:38] I think that becomes at least in a way to say

[00:59:40] I want to have more conversations with that particular person

[00:59:43] and see what happens

[00:59:47] you know I'll say

[00:59:48] I think there's an

[00:59:50] important distinction to be made between

[00:59:52] giftings and roles

[00:59:55] and

[00:59:57] activities

[00:59:58] so gifting is

[01:00:01] a guide to gift us

[01:00:03] to be able to communicate

[01:00:03] and we take advantage of opportunities to communicate

[01:00:06] that could be with a small group

[01:00:07] that could be with children in the ministry

[01:00:11] a group of

[01:00:12] homeless people

[01:00:13] whatever

[01:00:16] I think there's roles

[01:00:18] and I think like you were saying

[01:00:19] for whatever reason I think it just needs to be

[01:00:22] dismantled but the whole idea

[01:00:23] of kind of architecting a

[01:00:25] role that pastor

[01:00:27] is like the highest level of women

[01:00:29] I think that just needs to come down

[01:00:31] it's not intended by the Holy Spirit

[01:00:34] there is an importance

[01:00:35] of that or I don't want to downplay that because

[01:00:37] again, Paul says in Ephesians

[01:00:39] God has given

[01:00:41] apostles, pastors, prophets, pastors

[01:00:43] teachers for the equipping of the same

[01:00:45] it's really clear it's God the one that does that

[01:00:48] it's a God's gift

[01:00:49] to the beloved bride

[01:00:52] aka the church

[01:00:53] so I think for me

[01:00:55] I can speak on myself

[01:00:57] I didn't call myself a ministry

[01:00:59] I got called

[01:01:01] got confirmed

[01:01:02] got brought me into that

[01:01:04] and I think there's a danger sometimes

[01:01:07] like I said that can create a hierarchy

[01:01:09] that's an achievement

[01:01:11] that we need to attain

[01:01:13] to and try to attain to that

[01:01:15] and then it becomes

[01:01:16] sort of like an idolatrous type of relationship

[01:01:19] that for some

[01:01:21] there's this anxiety or this angst

[01:01:23] of never getting it or getting angry

[01:01:25] I think what was that incredible

[01:01:27] Mr. Incredible

[01:01:28] he had his little padwan that kind of

[01:01:30] ends up becoming the arch-syndrome

[01:01:32] I don't know the guy's name but

[01:01:33] he goes from being this padwan

[01:01:37] learning, growing to

[01:01:38] now he hates him

[01:01:40] is number one aim is to kill him

[01:01:42] because he didn't get what he wanted

[01:01:44] he wanted the achievement

[01:01:45] and I think there's something dubious that can happen

[01:01:47] in a heart so I would just go back

[01:01:49] to say it goes back to being faithful

[01:01:51] like in some ways we don't even need to worry about

[01:01:54] the role

[01:01:55] per se

[01:01:57] what we do is we look at what is the gifting

[01:01:59] what's the call that I'm sensing

[01:02:01] in my heart and am I doing it

[01:02:03] am I stepping into it

[01:02:05] again like I said if someone feels

[01:02:07] a sense of calling

[01:02:09] and they're like I don't want to teach

[01:02:11] a bunch of you know squirrely sixth graders

[01:02:13] because

[01:02:14] what I really want to do is I really want to do

[01:02:16] higher level stuff

[01:02:17] I would say that's an achievement

[01:02:20] based

[01:02:22] ethos that probably needs to

[01:02:24] come down

[01:02:25] and be detoxed from

[01:02:27] it's a ministry mindset that needs to be detoxed from

[01:02:30] and not stepped into because

[01:02:31] it boils down to

[01:02:33] so for me personally I get back to something

[01:02:36] I just sense

[01:02:37] a nudge in my heart to teach

[01:02:39] and I just did

[01:02:39] I was in 12th grade

[01:02:42] my senior year of high school I felt

[01:02:44] like I was telling me to teach

[01:02:45] and a lot of the guys around me

[01:02:47] in my youth group were teaching

[01:02:48] I was probably

[01:02:52] and I actually still have my notes from it

[01:02:54] and they were literally like almost word for word

[01:02:57] from J. Bernamie G.

[01:02:58] commentary

[01:03:00] almost word for word

[01:03:01] and

[01:03:02] but I did it and I just did what I could

[01:03:05] and I had a child like

[01:03:06] context in my heart of just like

[01:03:08] I'm not doing this to elevate or

[01:03:11] be a stepping stone to some sort of bigger thing

[01:03:13] I just I want to do it so

[01:03:14] my advice to anybody that is feeling

[01:03:16] any bit of like nudge in their heart

[01:03:18] like just step into that

[01:03:20] you guys your church has half needs

[01:03:23] every church has needs

[01:03:25] every church has some sort of

[01:03:27] area where you can step in and

[01:03:28] it might be children ministry, ask your pastor

[01:03:30] some elite elders in the church

[01:03:32] what are the areas right now that

[01:03:34] good regular effective teaching

[01:03:37] can be done

[01:03:38] I'd love to help step in there or at least

[01:03:40] craft some sort of

[01:03:42] context where maybe there's

[01:03:44] a group of people that are teaching

[01:03:46] and I think that becomes a stepping stone

[01:03:48] that God blesses our faithfulness

[01:03:51] in the small things

[01:03:52] and wherever the bigger things are

[01:03:53] whatever the bigger things are

[01:03:54] way to your things I should say

[01:03:56] those are going to come based on the Holy Spirit

[01:03:58] don't make those things happen just

[01:04:00] step into the faithfulness on this

[01:04:02] whatever God does for you

[01:04:03] that was my story

[01:04:13] opportunity plus

[01:04:14] inward desire plus

[01:04:17] affirmation from

[01:04:18] others

[01:04:20] that's kind of how it worked out for me

[01:04:22] I mean I could

[01:04:24] opportunity

[01:04:27] change of heart

[01:04:28] just a big idea

[01:04:30] affirmation from others

[01:04:36] change of heart

[01:04:39] and affirmation from others

[01:04:41] and the reason why I say that

[01:04:43] is because

[01:04:46] in certain circles

[01:04:47] there's a I think an over emphasis

[01:04:49] upon the internal sense of call

[01:04:53] which is real

[01:04:54] but it's not the only thing

[01:04:55] and sometimes people can declare themselves

[01:04:58] to be called to X, Y or Z

[01:05:02] while

[01:05:02] no one else

[01:05:04] sees or agrees with it

[01:05:06] and then can spin

[01:05:09] themselves for a long time

[01:05:11] because I know God's called me to this

[01:05:13] but so is there opportunity

[01:05:14] and then is there other affirmation

[01:05:19] in addition to all the other stuff

[01:05:20] and Ethiopian anointed me

[01:05:22] when I was four

[01:05:24] as well

[01:05:29] same one

[01:05:30] I would agree with what was said largely

[01:05:33] so

[01:05:34] I was doing

[01:05:36] some ministry and some of it was

[01:05:38] in that sense of small

[01:05:40] pastoring caring for people

[01:05:41] shepherding people

[01:05:43] and we had to recognize that

[01:05:45] I began to realize it wasn't what I was doing

[01:05:46] it's who God made me

[01:05:48] but that's no credit on my part

[01:05:50] because there's that thing what I do

[01:05:52] and who I am

[01:05:53] and I realize there is that role in the pastor

[01:05:56] and I fear that same thing

[01:05:58] you guys mentioned that

[01:05:58] well I am a pastor

[01:06:00] and here's my card

[01:06:03] and I need a parking spot

[01:06:05] trying to avoid that role

[01:06:06] but there is that reality

[01:06:08] and people are suddenly

[01:06:11] care of what you have to say from a teaching platform

[01:06:13] and it surprised me more than anybody else

[01:06:16] that someone cared that I had something to say

[01:06:19] from

[01:06:19] in here

[01:06:20] and this group

[01:06:22] there

[01:06:22] I think a great resource connected to that

[01:06:25] is Zac S. Wynne's book called The Imperfect Pastor

[01:06:29] where it speaks on

[01:06:30] if God removed every title that you had

[01:06:32] from pastor to everything

[01:06:34] and you were just simply

[01:06:35] Connor or Christian is that going to be enough for you

[01:06:39] and so

[01:06:40] I think it's very helpful to kind of

[01:06:42] take out all of the

[01:06:44] grandiose ideas for success

[01:06:46] if you feel called to the

[01:06:48] pastoral ministry

[01:06:49] it's a good resource

[01:06:51] wow

[01:06:51] well hey thanks for listening all the way to the end

[01:06:54] hopefully

[01:06:55] the questions that were asked by the people

[01:06:58] that were attending the pizza and preaching night

[01:07:01] hopefully their questions

[01:07:02] kind of were mouthpieces for things

[01:07:04] that you might have been wondering

[01:07:05] maybe even my rants at the beginning

[01:07:08] were something helpful

[01:07:10] and useful

[01:07:11] well I hope that this episode

[01:07:14] and all the video expositors collective

[01:07:16] help you to grow in your personal study

[01:07:18] and public proclamation

[01:07:20] of God's word

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