How to Be "At Your Best" While Preparing Sermons - Carey Nieuwhof

[00:00:00] One thing I definitely put work into stopping was the use of the word we. So we were trained to use the word we in seminary. In other words, don't put yourself above the audience, put yourself under the word, which I think is really like a great theological principle. Of course, I'm not above the audience. Of course, I'm a congregant. Of course, I sit under the word of God. But what I've learned in our culture anyway, and I've done this for decades,

[00:00:30] and I talked to my preaching prof about it. He still disagrees. He's an excellent preacher. But, you know, as we reach more and more people, I just found if I talked about you, people listened. Like, you know, when did you last read the word of God? When have you struggled in prayer? When have you really had a hard time? Now, once in a while, if I'm doing a really hard teaching, I'll say, look, I have this too. We all struggle with this. You know, my marriage has been through really bad times. So how about you guys? How are you doing as a couple?

[00:01:00] Hey, welcome to the Expositors Collective Podcast, episode 361. I'm your host, Mike Neglia. And the voice that you heard is that of Cary Neuhoff. Now, let me just be upfront and say, this episode is not brand new. In the month of December, I've been re-releasing some of the old classic episodes of the Expositors Collective Podcast. It's a bit of a greatest hits month.

[00:01:27] And this certainly is a great hit. This was actually the first episode that we released in the beginning of 2024. And it's only suitable that it's the last episode that we release at the end of this momentous year.

[00:01:45] Cary is somebody that I really enjoy learning from. And I think about him a lot when it comes to issues of time management and especially energy management.

[00:01:56] And at the end of December, in the beginning of January, when we begin to like reassess our priorities and our times, these are all the types of things that I think this episode and this conversation is going to really help you.

[00:02:11] For me, speaking personally, the end of December has been kind of momentous for me in a few different levels.

[00:02:18] Number one, I just finished a, I'm embarrassed to say, a five-year degree program with Western Seminary.

[00:02:28] I ended up switching my course a few different times.

[00:02:31] And so what should have been a three-year degree actually stretched out into a five-year degree.

[00:02:37] And earlier in this month, I finally finished it. Praise the Lord.

[00:02:42] Also, I just turned 42. December 29th was my 42nd birthday.

[00:02:49] And then, of course, there's the changing of the calendar year.

[00:02:52] So for me, the end of the year, especially when it coincides with my own birthday,

[00:02:57] a lot of times it makes me really do a double dose of assessment and really makes me look back and then also look forward.

[00:03:06] Like many of us do.

[00:03:08] Well, so for that reason, I think this episode is a real gift to me and to you,

[00:03:15] allowing us to think through the energy that we have, the time that we have left.

[00:03:21] How are we going to use it?

[00:03:23] What is our green, yellow, and red zones when it comes to our energy and inspiration?

[00:03:29] And how can we make 2025 the best year yet?

[00:03:33] So here's my conversation about preaching, planning, and priorities with Kerry Newhoff.

[00:03:47] All right. Hey, welcome to the Expositors Collective podcast.

[00:03:50] Really thrilled to be speaking with the one and only Kerry Newhoff.

[00:03:55] Kerry, welcome to Expositors Collective.

[00:03:57] Mike, it's great to be with you today. Thanks for making the time for me.

[00:04:00] Yeah. Honored. Well, I'm not super good at small talk. I'm just going to get straight to question one.

[00:04:06] Neither am I. So that's good.

[00:04:09] Yeah. There's far too many important things in the world to talk about.

[00:04:12] Maybe as a way to kind of get to know you or to introduce yourselves to the heroes a little bit,

[00:04:18] what was the first time you ever taught the Bible?

[00:04:21] Yeah. So, you know, I was thinking back, it was a sermon on, I'm pretty sure it was Deuteronomy 6 or Deuteronomy 8.

[00:04:29] I don't know why I picked that. It could have been like a lectionary thing.

[00:04:33] It was probably 30 years ago. No, no, it would have been in the 80s. Are you kidding me?

[00:04:40] And I preached at my home church and it was about when you're successful, don't forget God.

[00:04:45] I think that's Deuteronomy 6. I could be wrong. I didn't look it up prior to this.

[00:04:50] And, you know, I ran across it. I don't have a computer transcript of it anymore, like a computer file.

[00:04:56] But I was going through some old paper files that we have in a closet upstairs and I ran into it.

[00:05:04] Yeah.

[00:05:05] And I read it and it was really interesting.

[00:05:08] I thought, I don't know, I'd preach it exactly the same way, but the DNA was there.

[00:05:13] Like the DNA was there. It was just so interesting to see in that very first form,

[00:05:19] some of the ways I would talk and the ways I would think about the scripture and interact with it.

[00:05:24] We're still, you know, operating today, 35 years later.

[00:05:30] I'm going to say it was probably 1989 because that's when I experienced a call to ministry.

[00:05:35] Yeah. And I'm going to say it was probably Deuteronomy 8 because I just glanced at it.

[00:05:38] And that seems like it.

[00:05:39] Oh, thank you. Thank you for reading the Bible. I appreciate that.

[00:05:42] Deuteronomy 8 might have been verses 6 through 8 then, if I remember right.

[00:05:46] How did you feel when you rediscovered those notes?

[00:05:50] And then it actually kind of like, it seemed authentic to yourself.

[00:05:53] How did you feel when you discovered that?

[00:05:56] Yeah, surprised, I guess.

[00:05:57] You know, there is that line that you only have one message and you preach it your whole life.

[00:06:01] And I don't know, I think there might be five messages that most of us sort of come back to again and again.

[00:06:10] And one of them, you know, I think about success a lot.

[00:06:14] I don't know why.

[00:06:16] I don't know why I was thinking about it back then.

[00:06:18] Probably the law background.

[00:06:20] And I had some success in radio early on.

[00:06:24] And it's like, oh, this is what trips up people.

[00:06:28] Like, I think that was just a really interesting theme for me.

[00:06:33] And, you know, it's not a very quoted passage of the Old Testament.

[00:06:38] So, yeah, I think I read it and I'm like, oh, this is affirming.

[00:06:42] Like, somehow God was in the calling.

[00:06:44] God was in the messaging back then.

[00:06:46] And I guess I've grown a lot, but like I'm not all that different maybe than I was when I was 24 when I wrote that.

[00:06:54] So, as a 24-year-old first-time preacher, like what brought you into the pulpit?

[00:07:00] Were you specifically invited in?

[00:07:02] Did somebody coach you and mentor you?

[00:07:04] Did you raise your hand and volunteer?

[00:07:06] Yeah, I pushed the pastor out of the way.

[00:07:07] No, no, not at all.

[00:07:09] I'm pretty sure that was my home church.

[00:07:11] I would think I probably got invited to do pulpit supply.

[00:07:16] So, that's probably how that came about.

[00:07:19] Yeah.

[00:07:19] Well, so, there's been about 310 episodes of the Expositor's Collective podcast.

[00:07:26] I've asked a lot of preachers about their first sermon.

[00:07:29] And many of them, like, would kind of roll their eyes and they'll say like, oh, it was horrible.

[00:07:34] Or, you know, oh, I've grown a lot since then.

[00:07:37] And while maybe some of those themes or like that divine sense of calling has kind of been consistent for you throughout those decades, you certainly have grown since then.

[00:07:49] So, there's consistency in what you've seen and how you've like interpreted or understood God's word.

[00:07:54] But like how have you grown as a preacher and communicator since then?

[00:07:57] I was going to say maybe I was happy with it because I haven't grown, Mike, and you shouldn't have me on your podcast.

[00:08:01] I don't know.

[00:08:03] Stagnating for decades.

[00:08:05] I expected to roll my eyes and go, oh, my gosh, are you kidding me?

[00:08:09] But I've also worked in public communication since I was 16.

[00:08:13] So, I told you before we started recording, I was in radio.

[00:08:17] And so, that whole idea, like, you don't really have a script in radio.

[00:08:20] And back in the day, it was in the 80s, it was time, temperature, and tune.

[00:08:25] Because people didn't have watches.

[00:08:26] People didn't have phones.

[00:08:28] You literally, there was a day in my lifetime where you didn't know what time it was unless you were near a clock.

[00:08:32] Or you'd stop people and go, do you know what time it is?

[00:08:35] You can start a conversation.

[00:08:36] Yeah.

[00:08:37] Pretty normal, right?

[00:08:38] Or you'd start a meeting.

[00:08:39] It would be like, what time do you have it?

[00:08:41] And it would be like, oh, well, now, you know, your device turned to what, in my case, is 3 o'clock Eastern,

[00:08:48] at exactly the same moment in Ireland that my clock turned top of the hour.

[00:08:53] Yours did.

[00:08:53] But that was a different world.

[00:08:54] And so, I learned how to talk off the top of my feet.

[00:08:58] I hadn't done my year in law then.

[00:09:00] I was in law school.

[00:09:01] I'm working at a law firm when I wrote that sermon.

[00:09:04] But, you know, a lot teaches you to think on your feet.

[00:09:06] It really does.

[00:09:07] It's like, you gotta, it's sink or float.

[00:09:09] And this, you know, carefully scripted argument just doesn't work.

[00:09:12] So, I always felt comfortable in the pulpit.

[00:09:15] I think, you know, obviously, I have a lot more empathy for the audience now than I did.

[00:09:20] I think you have to exegete the text.

[00:09:22] I also think you have to exegete your audience.

[00:09:26] So, that would be a big difference.

[00:09:28] The sermon's probably longer now.

[00:09:30] I think I have more to say.

[00:09:32] My guess is that was a 20 or 25-minute sermon.

[00:09:36] I try to keep mine to 35.

[00:09:38] I say try because it's hard as a keynote speaker when you have a lot.

[00:09:44] And I really think shorter is the future.

[00:09:45] I really do.

[00:09:46] You look at shorts.

[00:09:48] You look at Instagram reels.

[00:09:49] You look at TikTok.

[00:09:51] People's attention spans are shorter.

[00:09:53] We're used to watching on demand.

[00:09:57] And then I think, obviously, reading the Bible for another 30, 35 years.

[00:10:02] And I generally, with very few exceptions, do the Bible in one year program.

[00:10:07] So, I've probably read through the Bible.

[00:10:10] I don't think it's exaggerating.

[00:10:12] 25 times since I wrote that sermon.

[00:10:16] So, you just have a richer appreciation of the whole tapestry of Scripture and how it interrelates.

[00:10:23] Plus, I hadn't been to seminary.

[00:10:24] I didn't really understand the Old Testament until I did Old and New Testament in first year seminary.

[00:10:31] And then when I got there, it was like, you know, it was all the pieces of a puzzle, but I didn't know how it fit together.

[00:10:37] I knew who Moses was.

[00:10:38] I knew who David was.

[00:10:39] I knew the minor prophets.

[00:10:40] I knew, you know, I grew up as a church kid.

[00:10:42] So, I knew it.

[00:10:43] But I didn't know how they all fit together.

[00:10:45] And then it was in seminary.

[00:10:46] I'm like, oh, well, that's where Moses is.

[00:10:48] He comes after Abraham.

[00:10:50] Right.

[00:10:51] And Abraham was sort of Isaac and Jacob.

[00:10:54] And then came Moses.

[00:10:55] And there was a 400-year interval.

[00:10:56] I didn't, you know, the exile.

[00:10:58] When did the Babylonian exile happen?

[00:11:00] I don't know.

[00:11:00] I didn't know until I got to seminary.

[00:11:02] I read about it, you know.

[00:11:04] But seminary put a lot of that together for me.

[00:11:07] So, I think that reading the rich tapestry of scripture, having a properly trained theological framework that I can then overlay as I bring my insights to the text and to the congregation, etc., probably has really helped me grow as a leader.

[00:11:23] Yeah.

[00:11:24] Hey, thanks.

[00:11:24] So, a lot of that has to do with, like, understanding the text or the Bible itself.

[00:11:30] Is there something communications-wise that's changed over these decades?

[00:11:35] Or maybe to put it more, like, negatively, what's something that you used to do that you put work into stopping?

[00:11:43] Ah, things I—one thing I definitely put work into stopping was the use of the word we.

[00:11:49] So, we were trained to use the word we in seminary.

[00:11:53] In other words, don't put yourself above the audience.

[00:11:56] Put yourself under the word, which I think is really, like, a great theological principle.

[00:12:02] Of course, I'm not above the audience.

[00:12:04] Of course, I'm a congregant.

[00:12:06] Of course, I sit under the word of God.

[00:12:08] But what I've learned in our culture anyway, and I've done this for decades, and I talked to my preaching prof about it.

[00:12:16] He still disagrees.

[00:12:17] He's an excellent preacher.

[00:12:18] But, you know, as we reach more and more people, I just found if I talked about you, people listened.

[00:12:26] Like, you know, when did you last read the word of God?

[00:12:29] When have you struggled in prayer?

[00:12:31] When have you really had a hard time?

[00:12:33] Now, once in a while, if I'm doing a really hard teaching, I'll say, look, I have this too.

[00:12:37] We all struggle with this.

[00:12:39] You know, my marriage has been through really bad times.

[00:12:41] So, how about you guys?

[00:12:42] How are you doing as a couple?

[00:12:43] You know, you don't want to hit people with a sledgehammer, but it really engages people.

[00:12:48] Because, you know, people understand relevance when it applies to them.

[00:12:53] And I've done that in my writing, too.

[00:12:55] If you look at my books, if you look at my website, and when we train people to write in my company,

[00:13:02] one of my employees over time, he had a little, you know, the don't sign, you know, the circle with the red line through it.

[00:13:09] Sure, yeah.

[00:13:09] Like, no swimming, no whatever, no bicycles, that kind of thing.

[00:13:13] It was just no with the word we, with that no sign through it.

[00:13:17] So, anyway, you know, it's like you're not allowed to use the word we, period.

[00:13:21] Because if an email opens with the word, you know, we all struggle from time to time with, are you struggling with?

[00:13:29] It just creates a relevancy.

[00:13:31] And so, I've found as I speak to audiences, and I've had the privilege of speaking to a lot of audiences,

[00:13:36] preaching, but also in public speaking, you is a very, very powerful word.

[00:13:42] So, that's one small change I made that I think has brought disproportional impact.

[00:13:48] Yeah, what's the wrong way to use you?

[00:13:52] Or maybe, let's say, when you were in seminary, why was there the emphasis on we?

[00:13:57] I think there has kind of a humble sound to it.

[00:14:00] Oh, it sounds humble.

[00:14:02] Yeah.

[00:14:02] It really does.

[00:14:03] And I think theologically, it's a really good point.

[00:14:06] Sure.

[00:14:07] But practically, it just doesn't connect.

[00:14:11] So, you know, the nice thing about, you can't do this when you're preaching.

[00:14:15] But, you know, with what I do now in building into leaders, if I send out an email and I write it all in we,

[00:14:21] and then I write it all in you, I haven't done this in a long, long time,

[00:14:25] but I'm 99% sure you can split test it, send it to half your list as we, half your list as you.

[00:14:30] The engagement, the number of people who click through to the call to action,

[00:14:35] the response will be way more emotional when it's you.

[00:14:38] Yeah.

[00:14:39] Well, thank you very much.

[00:14:40] This actually came up in another recent conversation that we had,

[00:14:43] whether it's appropriate to use the more prophetic you or the more fellow learner kind of we.

[00:14:50] We are all on a journey.

[00:14:52] Aw, shucks, folks.

[00:14:53] I'm learning this as well.

[00:14:54] And I think...

[00:14:55] Yeah.

[00:14:56] And I think you need to have that tone.

[00:14:58] Like, I will tell personal stories.

[00:14:59] My personal stories are almost never of successes.

[00:15:03] They're almost always of failures.

[00:15:05] And unfortunately, I have a lot of material in that realm.

[00:15:07] So if I'm saying, you know, hey, there have been times, like I prayed this morning,

[00:15:11] and I felt like my prayers were bouncing off the ceiling.

[00:15:13] I know they're not.

[00:15:14] But have you ever been there, Mike?

[00:15:17] Is very different than...

[00:15:18] We all feel like our prayers bounce off this.

[00:15:22] It just feels...

[00:15:22] You know, there was...

[00:15:24] Okay, there was this homily...

[00:15:26] Okay, here...

[00:15:27] I'm glad you're pushing on this.

[00:15:29] When do you use we in an actual conversation?

[00:15:34] The answer is you don't.

[00:15:37] Yeah.

[00:15:38] We're glad you're...

[00:15:39] Oh, no, not even that.

[00:15:40] Like, we're glad you're here for our dinner tonight.

[00:15:43] You wouldn't say that.

[00:15:45] If you got friends over, you would be like,

[00:15:47] oh, I'm really glad you guys have come.

[00:15:49] How's your day going?

[00:15:50] It feels way more personal.

[00:15:52] And so, you know what it was?

[00:15:53] And I mean, I'm not throwing my seminary under the bus here.

[00:15:57] I learned a lot of great things.

[00:15:59] But most of the people were leading non-growing churches.

[00:16:04] And there was that sort of homily voice that was,

[00:16:07] as we all know, God is love.

[00:16:09] It's like, what does that mean?

[00:16:12] It's true.

[00:16:13] That's almost a direct quote out of John.

[00:16:16] But like, you're not connecting with people.

[00:16:18] If you're like, hey, do you feel unloved?

[00:16:21] Like, what was it that happened to you in the playground when you were a kid?

[00:16:25] Or what did your dad say to you?

[00:16:27] Or what did your mom say to you when you were five

[00:16:29] that made you feel like you were unlovable?

[00:16:32] I got some news for you today.

[00:16:34] God is love.

[00:16:35] And you know what the surprise is, Mike?

[00:16:37] He loves you.

[00:16:38] Now, that's a personal conversation that just got brought to the pulpit

[00:16:42] as opposed to, as we all know, God loves us.

[00:16:45] It sounds so homily-ish, so boring.

[00:16:49] So, you know, artists don't write that.

[00:16:51] Like, loves, okay, when was I?

[00:16:53] I'm glad you got me on a riff here

[00:16:54] because I've never known why I feel so passionately about that.

[00:16:58] Name a song, a really popular song that uses we, not you.

[00:17:03] Well, there's that famous, yeah, that famous song from the,

[00:17:06] we will always love you.

[00:17:08] Yeah, we will rock you.

[00:17:10] Okay, there you go.

[00:17:11] Yeah, like Mariah Carey, you know?

[00:17:14] We will always love you.

[00:17:15] Yeah, I can't do Mariah Carey.

[00:17:17] But she does, I will always love you.

[00:17:19] It's always personal.

[00:17:21] And, you know, if you follow Calvin, et cetera,

[00:17:24] I mean, I went to a reformed seminary.

[00:17:26] You know, Calvin is like, God is very personal.

[00:17:29] God is very like a mother lisping to her children.

[00:17:33] Yeah.

[00:17:33] Is scripture lisping to us?

[00:17:35] So, yeah, I just, you know,

[00:17:36] I think you can make a strong argument that it's more faithful.

[00:17:40] And it's certainly more effective.

[00:17:41] I promise you that.

[00:17:43] Yeah, and I think you just did make a great compelling argument

[00:17:46] for those of us that are still wondering that question.

[00:17:50] Hey, so in these preparation of sermons

[00:17:53] and whatever pronoun that you're using,

[00:17:56] I know that you used to do this week in and week out,

[00:18:00] but now it's not a regular weekly rhythm.

[00:18:03] I do have a question about your weekly rhythm.

[00:18:05] But before that, I just want to ask, like, do you miss it?

[00:18:09] Do you miss the grind?

[00:18:11] Or is it something that you're kind of glad

[00:18:13] to be an occasional preacher now?

[00:18:15] I am very glad to be an occasional preacher now.

[00:18:18] I preached regularly for 28 years, maybe?

[00:18:26] That's a long time.

[00:18:28] Like, since I really went into seminary in the early 90s.

[00:18:32] 93 was when I went into seminary.

[00:18:34] I graduated in 97.

[00:18:36] And I started preaching almost every week.

[00:18:39] And then, you know, I've been in my own ministry since 95

[00:18:42] up here in north of Toronto.

[00:18:47] And, you know, that was, at the beginning,

[00:18:50] 48, 50 sermons a year.

[00:18:52] And then it hit a high watermark

[00:18:54] when we added a midweek service in the early 2000s

[00:18:56] of maybe 60 or 70 messages a year.

[00:19:00] It was insane, man.

[00:19:02] Now, that was pre-internet.

[00:19:03] That was, like, I mean, we had an internet,

[00:19:05] but it wasn't, we didn't have social media.

[00:19:07] We didn't have YouTube.

[00:19:08] So in the pre-YouTube era, I used to teach a lot.

[00:19:11] And it was easier then to bring your exegesis

[00:19:14] into the pulpit and just kind of make a few applications.

[00:19:17] But it's changed so much.

[00:19:19] So, yeah, I stopped.

[00:19:22] I stepped off the teaching team in 2020 at Connexus Church.

[00:19:26] So I stepped out of the lead pastor role in 2015.

[00:19:28] Kept a regular teaching load until 2019.

[00:19:31] Went back to halftime.

[00:19:32] And now I'm a very occasional preacher.

[00:19:34] I turned down all guests preaching.

[00:19:36] I enjoy speaking.

[00:19:38] Like, I love conference speaking.

[00:19:39] And I do that a lot.

[00:19:41] But I find it very hard to know what to say

[00:19:45] to a congregation I don't know.

[00:19:47] And I feel like it's pastoral.

[00:19:50] Other people have that gift.

[00:19:51] They do itinerant preaching.

[00:19:52] I don't think that's my jam.

[00:19:54] So I don't miss it.

[00:19:55] And the other thing, too,

[00:19:57] the reason I stepped out of day-to-day preaching,

[00:20:00] I feel not my calling has shifted,

[00:20:03] but my assignment has shifted where God has said,

[00:20:06] okay, you worked for 20 years working on a local church.

[00:20:08] Now you're going to build into the people who lead the local church.

[00:20:11] I feel like that's a very clear call from God.

[00:20:14] So I don't feel like, oh, I just got tired or I got bored.

[00:20:17] But I'll tell you, I do not envy the weekly sermon prep.

[00:20:22] And I teach occasionally at our church

[00:20:25] at the invitation of my successor.

[00:20:27] We have a great relationship.

[00:20:29] I did a series this fall in October.

[00:20:32] And I'm like, oh, yeah, this is a lot of work.

[00:20:35] Oh, yeah, this is a lot of work.

[00:20:36] Oh, yeah, it's a lot of work.

[00:20:37] And it's tiring.

[00:20:38] We have three services now at our broadcast campus.

[00:20:41] We added another just because we were out of room.

[00:20:43] And I'm like, whoa, those Sunday naps were tasty.

[00:20:47] I was so tired afterwards.

[00:20:49] And I don't know, there's something about preaching

[00:20:51] versus public speaking.

[00:20:52] Like when I do a keynote,

[00:20:55] I just set up with a client for a long day in January.

[00:20:58] I know I'll be tired, but I won't be preaching tired.

[00:21:02] Preaching tired is just different.

[00:21:04] And I don't know what it is.

[00:21:06] It's not like I try less hard when I'm talking to leaders.

[00:21:09] It's just different.

[00:21:11] Yeah, my Pentecostal friends would say,

[00:21:13] you've been fighting demons all day long.

[00:21:15] And that's...

[00:21:16] Yeah, I think I wouldn't dismiss that.

[00:21:18] And that's mild hyperbole, but I believe, yeah,

[00:21:20] there is an aspect to that.

[00:21:22] But for those of us who are still doing the week in,

[00:21:25] week out grind,

[00:21:26] I've actually found your book,

[00:21:28] At Your Best,

[00:21:29] to be like a real gift,

[00:21:31] a real help.

[00:21:33] Oh, wow.

[00:21:34] I'm sure that you could talk at length about this,

[00:21:36] but really briefly,

[00:21:38] could you talk about how you used red zones,

[00:21:42] green zones, and yellow zones

[00:21:43] to work in your favor

[00:21:45] as you were preparing messages week in and week out?

[00:21:48] A hundred percent.

[00:21:49] So for those who haven't read the book,

[00:21:50] which is most listeners, I imagine,

[00:21:53] or who have forgotten it,

[00:21:55] the framework's pretty simple.

[00:21:57] If you take your 24-hour day or your work day,

[00:21:59] you can divide it into three zones

[00:22:01] where your energy is high, low, or medium.

[00:22:04] High energy is your green zone.

[00:22:06] Low energy, for me,

[00:22:08] that's four to six in the afternoon,

[00:22:10] is you're pretty tired.

[00:22:12] Like basically,

[00:22:13] I don't want to be in a meeting.

[00:22:14] I need to either have a nap

[00:22:15] or go for a walk

[00:22:16] or have a snack or something.

[00:22:17] You're just dead.

[00:22:19] And then yellow is your mid-energy,

[00:22:22] everything in between.

[00:22:23] So that's sort of the big idea.

[00:22:24] And you have to manage your energy,

[00:22:26] not just your time.

[00:22:27] So what I did,

[00:22:29] and this really impacted sermon crap,

[00:22:31] my green zone,

[00:22:32] the time when my energy and creativity

[00:22:34] is at its highest,

[00:22:36] is in the morning from 7 to 11 a.m.

[00:22:38] And because I had a young, growing family

[00:22:41] when I was leaving a church,

[00:22:42] I never liked to be out at night.

[00:22:44] I wanted to have dinner with my family

[00:22:46] at least five nights a week.

[00:22:47] And that was as much about the kids being out

[00:22:49] as me being out.

[00:22:50] I was rarely out.

[00:22:52] Once I got that settled down,

[00:22:54] I would do breakfast meetings.

[00:22:56] And what happens was

[00:22:57] I found I was burning jet fuel

[00:23:00] because I would have my message to write

[00:23:02] Sunday after Sunday.

[00:23:03] I'd get into the office

[00:23:04] by like 10 a.m.

[00:23:06] after a long breakfast meeting

[00:23:07] and a run to the drive-through

[00:23:08] for some coffee.

[00:23:10] And then I get into the office

[00:23:11] and then you get all the office stuff

[00:23:12] and all these emails

[00:23:13] and text messages.

[00:23:14] And my sermon wouldn't get written.

[00:23:16] Kick the can down the road to Tuesday.

[00:23:18] Kick it down the road again to Wednesday.

[00:23:20] And I wasn't using my gift.

[00:23:22] I was using it rather,

[00:23:23] but I was cheating it.

[00:23:24] I was cheating it

[00:23:25] because I wasn't doing sermon prep time.

[00:23:27] And then, of course, by Thursday,

[00:23:29] you have to take it home

[00:23:30] because it's due on Sunday

[00:23:32] and your team wants Friday off.

[00:23:34] So everybody loses.

[00:23:35] I lose.

[00:23:36] The congregation loses.

[00:23:37] The production team loses.

[00:23:39] My family loses.

[00:23:40] Because dad's not home present,

[00:23:42] I'm behind my laptop.

[00:23:43] So what I did,

[00:23:45] and this was the big pivot,

[00:23:46] and I'm so thankful God has used it

[00:23:48] to help literally

[00:23:49] probably 100,000 leaders at this point

[00:23:51] who have learned this system,

[00:23:53] is I just said,

[00:23:55] no more breakfast meetings

[00:23:55] in my green zone.

[00:23:56] No more meetings in my green zone.

[00:23:59] From 7 to 11 a.m.,

[00:24:00] I'm going to work on my message.

[00:24:02] And what that meant is

[00:24:03] Monday morning,

[00:24:04] I just started on my message for Sunday.

[00:24:06] And then soon,

[00:24:07] I started getting ahead.

[00:24:08] And now, generally,

[00:24:10] I'm working on a message

[00:24:10] for six weeks from now.

[00:24:13] I'll have that message done.

[00:24:15] And I got lots of other stuff

[00:24:16] in my workflow.

[00:24:17] I'll have that message done

[00:24:18] a month before I preach it.

[00:24:20] What that means is

[00:24:22] the week I'm preaching it,

[00:24:23] yeah, I'm going to review it.

[00:24:24] I'm going to dust it off.

[00:24:25] But the production team

[00:24:26] isn't wondering,

[00:24:27] when is this coming down the pipe?

[00:24:28] My family isn't going to pay a price

[00:24:30] because I got to preach.

[00:24:32] And I'll look at it

[00:24:33] probably, you know,

[00:24:34] the week of.

[00:24:35] And then Sunday morning,

[00:24:37] I'll get up at 445.

[00:24:39] I'll have my devotions.

[00:24:40] I'll read through it.

[00:24:41] And I'm good to go.

[00:24:43] And the other thing

[00:24:43] that's really cool,

[00:24:45] if you want to speak

[00:24:45] without using notes,

[00:24:46] and we can talk about that,

[00:24:48] is the longer you have

[00:24:50] for a message

[00:24:51] to internalize and digest.

[00:24:52] In other words,

[00:24:54] a week is better than day.

[00:24:55] A month is better than a week.

[00:24:57] You will be able

[00:24:58] to come back

[00:24:58] to that material

[00:24:59] and feel like

[00:25:00] it's old home content.

[00:25:02] And you will be able

[00:25:04] to be free from your notes

[00:25:05] at a much greater rate

[00:25:07] than if you pulled it together

[00:25:08] Friday for a Sunday delivery

[00:25:10] or Saturday

[00:25:10] for a Sunday delivery.

[00:25:12] And the science behind that

[00:25:13] is it moves from your

[00:25:14] short-term memory

[00:25:16] to your long-term memory.

[00:25:17] So in the same way

[00:25:19] that you can tell a story

[00:25:20] of what happened,

[00:25:21] you know,

[00:25:22] 10 years ago

[00:25:23] because you remember it well,

[00:25:24] you don't have to look

[00:25:25] at your notes for that,

[00:25:27] right?

[00:25:27] Like you just know the story.

[00:25:29] It will move

[00:25:30] to your long-term memory

[00:25:31] and you'll become

[00:25:32] much more comfortable

[00:25:34] with the material.

[00:25:35] Secondly,

[00:25:35] this is weird

[00:25:36] and I'm not trying

[00:25:37] to play spiritual tricks here.

[00:25:38] You will appear

[00:25:39] as though you have

[00:25:40] more authority.

[00:25:41] And the reason you appear

[00:25:42] you have more authority

[00:25:43] is because you have

[00:25:45] a command of the topic

[00:25:46] because you've already

[00:25:47] internalized the message.

[00:25:49] So I'm a huge fan

[00:25:50] of working ahead

[00:25:51] and by moving

[00:25:52] to my green zone,

[00:25:53] moving my preaching

[00:25:54] to my green zone

[00:25:54] and allowing nothing else in it,

[00:25:56] I get way ahead.

[00:25:58] I internalize the message.

[00:25:59] I'm free from my notes

[00:26:01] and I can just have

[00:26:02] a more effective conversation.

[00:26:05] Yeah,

[00:26:05] and that spiritual authority,

[00:26:07] it's, you know,

[00:26:07] it's actually doubled

[00:26:08] when you use the word you,

[00:26:09] when you say you,

[00:26:10] you know,

[00:26:11] this,

[00:26:12] yeah,

[00:26:13] that's,

[00:26:13] this,

[00:26:13] this has been,

[00:26:14] and, you know,

[00:26:15] Carrie,

[00:26:15] I wish I could say

[00:26:16] and I've implemented

[00:26:16] it perfectly.

[00:26:17] I think I have,

[00:26:18] I have this awareness

[00:26:20] of it

[00:26:21] and then sometimes

[00:26:22] I will be even

[00:26:23] rolling my eyes

[00:26:23] at myself

[00:26:24] and this vocabulary

[00:26:25] has kind of come

[00:26:26] into my head

[00:26:26] where it's like,

[00:26:27] I'm in a yellow zone

[00:26:29] doing what I should

[00:26:30] be doing in a green zone

[00:26:31] or vice versa.

[00:26:32] So you've,

[00:26:33] you've helped me

[00:26:33] a little bit

[00:26:34] and then also

[00:26:34] given me

[00:26:35] the self-condemnation

[00:26:36] that I need

[00:26:37] to know that

[00:26:37] I got to do better

[00:26:38] at this as well too.

[00:26:39] Hey,

[00:26:40] I've had that too.

[00:26:40] Like,

[00:26:41] and I'll be the first

[00:26:42] to say,

[00:26:42] I don't follow

[00:26:43] my own system perfectly

[00:26:44] because life gets

[00:26:45] in the way.

[00:26:46] Some days are better

[00:26:47] than others,

[00:26:48] right?

[00:26:48] And some days I'm,

[00:26:49] but what it comes down

[00:26:50] to is self-discipline

[00:26:53] and just realizing,

[00:26:55] like I now,

[00:26:56] in the book,

[00:26:56] which came out

[00:26:57] a couple years ago,

[00:26:58] I say don't,

[00:26:59] unless you're trying out

[00:27:00] for the Olympics

[00:27:00] or professional sports,

[00:27:02] don't you do your workouts

[00:27:03] in your green zone.

[00:27:05] I've changed my mind

[00:27:06] on that.

[00:27:06] I do my workouts

[00:27:07] in my green zone

[00:27:08] because I got onto

[00:27:09] a personal fitness journey

[00:27:10] about 18 months ago

[00:27:11] and I realized

[00:27:12] if I leave them

[00:27:13] until 4.30

[00:27:14] in my red zone,

[00:27:15] guess what?

[00:27:15] I'm not going to do

[00:27:16] my workout

[00:27:17] or I'm going to phone it in.

[00:27:18] So now I make it

[00:27:20] early in the morning

[00:27:21] and I do it.

[00:27:22] So it compromises

[00:27:22] my green zone

[00:27:23] a little bit

[00:27:24] a few days a week,

[00:27:24] but I still find myself

[00:27:26] with higher energy then

[00:27:28] and then I write

[00:27:29] for two or three hours,

[00:27:30] not four.

[00:27:30] And most of the science

[00:27:32] would say,

[00:27:33] unless you're under

[00:27:34] a deadline,

[00:27:35] which preachers are

[00:27:35] kind of every week,

[00:27:36] but I wouldn't advise this

[00:27:38] because it's going to create

[00:27:39] chronic stress for you.

[00:27:40] Unless you're under

[00:27:41] a deadline,

[00:27:41] you probably have

[00:27:42] two to maybe three

[00:27:45] good hours

[00:27:46] of sermon work

[00:27:47] in you a day.

[00:27:48] Otherwise,

[00:27:48] you start to lose focus.

[00:27:50] Otherwise,

[00:27:50] you just want

[00:27:52] to get it done.

[00:27:53] So, you know,

[00:27:54] spending two hours

[00:27:54] on it on Monday,

[00:27:56] two or three hours

[00:27:56] on it Tuesday,

[00:27:57] finishing it up Wednesday,

[00:27:59] really good.

[00:28:00] And then work on it

[00:28:01] a bit Thursday,

[00:28:02] you can get ahead

[00:28:03] for your big idea

[00:28:04] for the next week

[00:28:05] and the next week.

[00:28:06] And by the time,

[00:28:08] you know,

[00:28:08] well,

[00:28:09] certainly long before

[00:28:09] the book came out,

[00:28:10] for years,

[00:28:11] I had been finishing

[00:28:13] my sermon series

[00:28:14] before I preached

[00:28:15] week one.

[00:28:16] And what that allows

[00:28:17] you to do

[00:28:19] is now

[00:28:20] you're not just

[00:28:21] thinking about

[00:28:21] what do I do

[00:28:22] on Sunday?

[00:28:23] You're thinking about,

[00:28:24] okay,

[00:28:24] where does this series

[00:28:25] go in part three?

[00:28:26] Where does it go

[00:28:26] in part four?

[00:28:27] And what is my next

[00:28:29] series going to be?

[00:28:30] And again,

[00:28:30] that command

[00:28:31] of the topic

[00:28:32] because you're

[00:28:33] reading all day long.

[00:28:35] You read something

[00:28:35] online that you're like,

[00:28:37] oh,

[00:28:37] that would really fit in

[00:28:38] with the money series

[00:28:39] in two months.

[00:28:40] Or I'm doing relationships.

[00:28:42] Like,

[00:28:42] I know I'm preaching

[00:28:43] on relationships

[00:28:44] and technology

[00:28:45] and specifically

[00:28:46] AI

[00:28:46] in January.

[00:28:48] So,

[00:28:49] I picked that subject

[00:28:50] in October

[00:28:51] and I've been collecting

[00:28:53] and gleaning

[00:28:54] articles,

[00:28:56] things I've read

[00:28:57] because I know

[00:28:58] that's coming up.

[00:28:58] And now,

[00:28:59] when I turn my mind

[00:29:00] to writing that message

[00:29:01] this week,

[00:29:02] I'm going to go

[00:29:03] into my file.

[00:29:04] I'm going to see

[00:29:04] what's there.

[00:29:05] I recorded a lot

[00:29:07] of ideas last week.

[00:29:08] I'm going to capture

[00:29:08] them all there.

[00:29:09] And again,

[00:29:10] that gives me

[00:29:11] an advantage

[00:29:11] that I wouldn't have.

[00:29:13] I think it's

[00:29:13] January 22nd

[00:29:14] I'm preaching it.

[00:29:15] If I started

[00:29:16] on the 19th,

[00:29:16] I've lost all of that.

[00:29:18] But now,

[00:29:18] I started two months

[00:29:19] in advance

[00:29:20] and I know

[00:29:21] I'm only preaching

[00:29:23] four times

[00:29:23] in the last three months,

[00:29:24] that kind of thing.

[00:29:25] Yeah.

[00:29:25] But if you do that

[00:29:26] as a preacher,

[00:29:27] you can do that.

[00:29:28] I had sermons

[00:29:29] when I was on

[00:29:29] the regular teaching schedule.

[00:29:31] I had sermon ideas

[00:29:33] that were two or three years

[00:29:34] in advance,

[00:29:35] like two or three years

[00:29:36] of sermon materials.

[00:29:37] And,

[00:29:38] you know,

[00:29:38] then I would glean ideas

[00:29:40] and everything

[00:29:40] that I could just

[00:29:41] paste into that file.

[00:29:43] I kept it in Evernote.

[00:29:44] So,

[00:29:44] I'm a big fan

[00:29:46] of working ahead

[00:29:46] because you're going

[00:29:47] to produce your best material.

[00:29:49] Yeah.

[00:29:50] Thank you.

[00:29:50] And I'm hearing

[00:29:51] the bivocational

[00:29:53] preachers

[00:29:54] in my ears,

[00:29:55] you know,

[00:29:55] hypothetically.

[00:29:56] And they're saying,

[00:29:56] yeah,

[00:29:57] well,

[00:29:57] sure,

[00:29:57] it's easy for you.

[00:29:58] Some of us

[00:29:58] don't have four months

[00:29:59] to work on this.

[00:30:00] But you're saying

[00:30:01] this also works

[00:30:02] in the thick of it.

[00:30:04] This is not just something

[00:30:05] for like retired

[00:30:06] ex-preachers

[00:30:07] dipping in

[00:30:08] from time to time.

[00:30:09] No,

[00:30:09] I'm pulling from my notes

[00:30:11] from when I was

[00:30:11] in the trenches.

[00:30:12] And the other thing

[00:30:14] I would say

[00:30:14] to bivocational,

[00:30:15] yes,

[00:30:15] that was my

[00:30:16] full-time vacation.

[00:30:17] Vocation wasn't a vacation.

[00:30:19] Trust me.

[00:30:20] Vocation.

[00:30:20] So,

[00:30:21] I'm not saying

[00:30:22] that I understand.

[00:30:23] I don't understand.

[00:30:25] But what I can tell you,

[00:30:26] and I've used voice memos

[00:30:27] on my phone.

[00:30:28] I have an Evernote file

[00:30:30] that's just like

[00:30:31] sermon ideas.

[00:30:31] I have one

[00:30:32] for a particular sermon

[00:30:33] I'm working on.

[00:30:35] Literally,

[00:30:35] when you're on a run,

[00:30:36] when you're in the car,

[00:30:38] just dictate

[00:30:39] a voice memo

[00:30:40] to yourself.

[00:30:41] Transcribe it

[00:30:42] or put it in notes

[00:30:43] if you have an iPhone.

[00:30:45] And then it's there

[00:30:46] when you need it.

[00:30:47] Because you know

[00:30:48] what happens.

[00:30:49] Like,

[00:30:49] you listen to musicians

[00:30:50] and they often wake up

[00:30:52] with a tune in their head

[00:30:53] at three o'clock

[00:30:53] in the morning.

[00:30:54] Right.

[00:30:55] And if they don't

[00:30:56] write it down

[00:30:57] or they don't have

[00:30:57] a recording device

[00:30:58] next to their bed,

[00:30:59] they wake up at 7 a.m.

[00:31:01] and it's gone.

[00:31:02] And that's what happens

[00:31:03] to me is those

[00:31:04] insights.

[00:31:04] And some of them

[00:31:05] have been really pivotal

[00:31:06] for me.

[00:31:07] They're gone

[00:31:08] if I don't write them

[00:31:08] down in the moment.

[00:31:10] Yeah.

[00:31:11] Yeah.

[00:31:11] Well,

[00:31:12] yeah,

[00:31:12] thanks for that.

[00:31:13] So on that,

[00:31:14] on the kind of note,

[00:31:15] yeah,

[00:31:15] and this is,

[00:31:16] there'll be a link

[00:31:16] in the show notes.

[00:31:17] This is a great book.

[00:31:18] It's really helped me

[00:31:19] and I think

[00:31:20] they can help preachers.

[00:31:21] And also,

[00:31:21] I love how,

[00:31:22] I think it's in chapter

[00:31:23] four or five,

[00:31:24] like the example

[00:31:25] is given

[00:31:25] of like the stress

[00:31:26] of chapter three,

[00:31:28] the stress

[00:31:28] of having to

[00:31:29] write a sermon

[00:31:30] every week

[00:31:31] that's compelling,

[00:31:31] profound,

[00:31:32] theologically deep,

[00:31:33] accessible to

[00:31:34] new people,

[00:31:34] original,

[00:31:35] faithful,

[00:31:36] funny,

[00:31:36] and charming.

[00:31:37] And I read that along.

[00:31:39] I'm like,

[00:31:39] oh,

[00:31:39] yes.

[00:31:40] What,

[00:31:40] what pressure

[00:31:41] week on week

[00:31:41] on week.

[00:31:42] And we get used to it.

[00:31:43] I only did that

[00:31:43] for 28 years.

[00:31:44] So, you know,

[00:31:45] it wasn't much.

[00:31:46] It wasn't much.

[00:31:47] Yeah.

[00:31:47] Well then,

[00:31:48] on kind of the idea

[00:31:49] of that weekly rhythm

[00:31:50] and I said grind

[00:31:52] earlier on,

[00:31:52] it doesn't have to be a grind,

[00:31:54] but sometimes it is.

[00:31:55] So,

[00:31:55] Carrie,

[00:31:56] I wonder if you've learned

[00:31:57] how to take the grind

[00:31:59] out of it,

[00:32:00] not from like a time

[00:32:01] management thing,

[00:32:02] but how,

[00:32:02] have you been able

[00:32:03] to like prepare a sermon

[00:32:04] for the benefit

[00:32:05] of other people

[00:32:06] that actually is beneficial

[00:32:07] for your own soul?

[00:32:09] Is it always kind of

[00:32:10] a depleting exercise

[00:32:11] or have you found

[00:32:12] how to personally

[00:32:13] be enriched

[00:32:14] in your sermon prep?

[00:32:15] I think the only thing

[00:32:16] that's depleting

[00:32:17] about preaching for me

[00:32:19] is the actual delivery.

[00:32:21] There's something

[00:32:21] about doing that

[00:32:22] for 35 or 40 minutes,

[00:32:24] three times on a Sunday

[00:32:25] or twice on a Sunday

[00:32:26] that just takes

[00:32:28] a piece out of you.

[00:32:30] I find the writing of it

[00:32:31] really energizing.

[00:32:33] At times,

[00:32:33] it can be frustrating

[00:32:35] if you're stuck

[00:32:36] on an idea

[00:32:36] or trying to be clear.

[00:32:39] But what I found

[00:32:40] is working ahead for me,

[00:32:42] and I had many people

[00:32:44] in my life

[00:32:44] who encouraged me

[00:32:45] to do that

[00:32:45] because I wasn't

[00:32:46] somebody who worked ahead

[00:32:48] for a long time,

[00:32:49] that that took

[00:32:50] the grind out of it.

[00:32:51] You know,

[00:32:52] it takes away the pressure.

[00:32:53] If you have a

[00:32:54] sermon ideas file,

[00:32:55] and I could show you

[00:32:56] my sermon ideas file

[00:32:58] from a few years ago

[00:32:59] when I was preaching regularly.

[00:33:00] I still have one

[00:33:01] for 2024.

[00:33:02] It's not very thick

[00:33:03] because I'm not going

[00:33:04] to preach much.

[00:33:05] But it was a mess.

[00:33:07] It was a mess.

[00:33:07] It just had random ideas

[00:33:09] in it.

[00:33:09] And then I'd sit down

[00:33:10] once every six months

[00:33:11] or so,

[00:33:12] try to organize them.

[00:33:13] And I'd do a year-end review,

[00:33:16] and I would plot out

[00:33:17] my preaching.

[00:33:18] And I did this for years

[00:33:19] for the next 12 months

[00:33:21] by probably September,

[00:33:23] October, November

[00:33:24] of the previous year.

[00:33:25] Now, once in a while,

[00:33:26] that would change.

[00:33:27] Uh-oh,

[00:33:27] we have a capital campaign,

[00:33:29] or there was something

[00:33:30] in the world that happened

[00:33:31] that we needed to address.

[00:33:33] But it was broad.

[00:33:34] Like, we'll do a relationship series

[00:33:35] in January to kick things off.

[00:33:37] Then we're going to talk

[00:33:38] about money in February.

[00:33:39] Then we're going to do

[00:33:40] prayer in March.

[00:33:41] Then for Easter,

[00:33:42] we're going to do this.

[00:33:44] Then in the summer,

[00:33:44] we're doing the Psalms.

[00:33:46] And then in the fall,

[00:33:47] we're doing something

[00:33:48] on whatever,

[00:33:49] Grace and Truth,

[00:33:50] a family series in October.

[00:33:52] You know,

[00:33:52] just broad strokes.

[00:33:53] And the closer you get,

[00:33:55] the more specific it becomes.

[00:33:56] But think about the pressure

[00:33:58] that that takes off of,

[00:34:00] I have to come up with something

[00:34:02] 50 times in the next year.

[00:34:03] You already know.

[00:34:04] You have a compass.

[00:34:05] You know where you're going.

[00:34:06] You don't have to come up

[00:34:07] with fresh content.

[00:34:08] And then you can start collecting.

[00:34:10] Then you can start

[00:34:11] thinking of ideas,

[00:34:12] putting them in your idea bank

[00:34:13] and your notes.

[00:34:14] So that really took the grind away.

[00:34:16] And then the other thing

[00:34:17] was just honestly

[00:34:18] freeing up my green zone.

[00:34:20] Because if I'm devoting that,

[00:34:22] like, you have to ask yourself,

[00:34:23] okay, what's the best use

[00:34:24] of your green zone?

[00:34:25] Well, what,

[00:34:26] when you do it repeatedly,

[00:34:29] has the greatest results

[00:34:30] in your leadership?

[00:34:31] So if you're a pastor,

[00:34:33] for me,

[00:34:33] that was a very small group of things.

[00:34:36] It wasn't hospital visits.

[00:34:38] It wasn't,

[00:34:39] it wasn't,

[00:34:40] you know,

[00:34:41] administration

[00:34:42] or answering email

[00:34:43] or filing expense reports.

[00:34:45] I can do that

[00:34:45] in my yellow or red zone.

[00:34:47] You know what it was for me?

[00:34:48] It was making sure

[00:34:50] the vision was crystal clear

[00:34:51] and beautifully communicated.

[00:34:53] Making sure our team

[00:34:54] at the most senior levels

[00:34:55] was aligned.

[00:34:57] Preaching clear

[00:34:58] and compelling messages

[00:34:59] that worked for unchurched people

[00:35:01] and church people alike.

[00:35:03] Then that's about it.

[00:35:05] Like, if I did those,

[00:35:06] oh, raising money.

[00:35:07] Also, I had to raise money,

[00:35:08] make sure that we were

[00:35:09] financially going to be able

[00:35:11] to make it into another year.

[00:35:12] If those four big things were done,

[00:35:16] the church was fine.

[00:35:17] If I let one of them go,

[00:35:19] like our team isn't aligned very much

[00:35:21] or the vision isn't clear

[00:35:23] or my preaching is bad,

[00:35:26] then the wheels started

[00:35:28] to come off the bus.

[00:35:29] But as long as I had those big four,

[00:35:31] and so I would devote my green

[00:35:32] and my yellow zones

[00:35:33] to those four,

[00:35:34] and then my red zones

[00:35:35] can take the other stuff.

[00:35:37] Like, I can fill out

[00:35:37] an expense report

[00:35:38] at four o'clock

[00:35:39] in the afternoon,

[00:35:39] get it in,

[00:35:40] and chase down that receipt

[00:35:41] and we're done.

[00:35:42] Yeah.

[00:35:43] Yeah.

[00:35:45] And that,

[00:35:47] yeah,

[00:35:47] has there been times

[00:35:48] in sermon prep

[00:35:49] when you actually could

[00:35:51] kind of feel your soul

[00:35:52] being nourished by it?

[00:35:53] So regardless of the time zone

[00:35:55] or the green zone,

[00:35:57] like,

[00:35:57] was it a rare occasion?

[00:35:59] Is it a rare occasion?

[00:36:00] Like, is this a spiritual,

[00:36:01] like, faith-building exercise?

[00:36:03] Or is it a job to get done?

[00:36:05] Oh, yeah.

[00:36:06] I mean, I tried back in 98,

[00:36:09] so I'd been in

[00:36:10] some form of full-time ministry

[00:36:12] for three years.

[00:36:14] I realized

[00:36:14] that I was starting

[00:36:16] to fall into the trap

[00:36:18] of letting my devotion time

[00:36:20] become my sermon prep time.

[00:36:23] And I flagged that

[00:36:24] as a young leader

[00:36:25] as an occupational hazard.

[00:36:27] I'm like,

[00:36:27] if there's a good way

[00:36:28] to spiritually burn out

[00:36:29] or coast on fumes,

[00:36:33] it would be

[00:36:34] by making sure

[00:36:36] I'm preaching on Romans 7,

[00:36:37] so therefore,

[00:36:37] I'm reading Romans 7

[00:36:39] in my personal time with God.

[00:36:40] So I started to ask a question

[00:36:42] I would later articulate

[00:36:43] as

[00:36:44] if

[00:36:45] I was done with ministry today,

[00:36:47] what would be left

[00:36:48] of my faith?

[00:36:50] And you could argue now

[00:36:52] that I'm kind of done

[00:36:53] with ministry today.

[00:36:54] I still see what I do now

[00:36:56] as a ministry,

[00:36:57] but, you know,

[00:36:57] congregational ministry.

[00:36:58] My faith is very much alive.

[00:37:01] And 1998 was the year

[00:37:03] I bought a one-year Bible

[00:37:04] and started reading

[00:37:04] through the Bible

[00:37:05] every year.

[00:37:06] I'd done it a couple times before,

[00:37:07] but I just made sure

[00:37:08] I'm going to do this.

[00:37:09] So what I saw in that

[00:37:12] was that the main rejuvenation

[00:37:14] came in my personal devotions

[00:37:16] with God

[00:37:16] and my personal prayer life.

[00:37:18] And then there were times

[00:37:20] where, you know,

[00:37:21] God would really drop

[00:37:22] some pearls of wisdom on me

[00:37:24] when I was reading the text

[00:37:25] or have an encounter

[00:37:26] with the text,

[00:37:27] but I saw it as my job.

[00:37:28] I saw it as my task

[00:37:30] that what I'm there

[00:37:32] is I'm laboring

[00:37:33] on behalf of a congregation

[00:37:34] that I love and serve.

[00:37:36] And so it was less about me

[00:37:38] and more about

[00:37:39] how do I serve people?

[00:37:41] Not giving them

[00:37:41] what their itching ears

[00:37:42] want to hear.

[00:37:43] I read that verse too.

[00:37:44] But like trying to understand

[00:37:46] what are they going through?

[00:37:47] How are they struggling?

[00:37:49] What do they need to hear from God?

[00:37:51] And how can I faithfully deliver that?

[00:37:54] And then the biggest part for me

[00:37:56] was how do I make it clear?

[00:37:58] So because I've got

[00:37:59] all kinds of thoughts

[00:38:00] and I want the sermon

[00:38:01] to be about 17 things.

[00:38:03] So then sometimes

[00:38:04] the angst would come

[00:38:05] in trying to boil it down

[00:38:07] to the one thing

[00:38:07] I'm going to talk about

[00:38:08] and then articulating it

[00:38:10] in a really clear way.

[00:38:11] And there were definitely

[00:38:12] some incredible moments.

[00:38:14] But the other thing I would say,

[00:38:15] there were times

[00:38:15] where I was really passionate

[00:38:17] about a message

[00:38:17] and I'm like,

[00:38:18] oh, this is from God.

[00:38:19] This is a direct download.

[00:38:21] And then I preach it

[00:38:23] and there's crickets.

[00:38:25] Nothing.

[00:38:26] Yeah.

[00:38:26] And then other times

[00:38:27] where I want to pull myself

[00:38:29] off the stage

[00:38:30] 20 minutes into

[00:38:31] a 35-minute message

[00:38:32] going,

[00:38:33] this is a disaster.

[00:38:34] Like,

[00:38:35] I don't even know

[00:38:36] why I thought

[00:38:36] this was a good idea.

[00:38:37] I've been,

[00:38:38] you know,

[00:38:39] and it wasn't like

[00:38:39] there was some major

[00:38:41] unconfessed sin

[00:38:41] in my life

[00:38:42] that wasn't

[00:38:43] just ordinary stuff.

[00:38:44] It wasn't like

[00:38:44] it was just like,

[00:38:45] this is a terrible message.

[00:38:47] And then I would get emails

[00:38:48] and people stopping me

[00:38:49] going,

[00:38:49] that was amazing.

[00:38:50] And I'm like,

[00:38:51] okay,

[00:38:52] I haven't figured that out.

[00:38:53] I don't know what it is.

[00:38:55] So there are times

[00:38:56] where I thought

[00:38:57] it was a stinker

[00:38:58] and it turned out

[00:38:59] to be great.

[00:39:00] And there were times

[00:39:01] where I thought

[00:39:01] it was amazing

[00:39:02] and not even my mom

[00:39:03] liked it.

[00:39:04] So I don't know.

[00:39:05] I can't figure that out.

[00:39:06] Yeah,

[00:39:06] there's that mysterious

[00:39:07] aspect to this,

[00:39:08] isn't it?

[00:39:09] Yeah.

[00:39:10] We put in,

[00:39:11] yeah,

[00:39:11] we want to do the work,

[00:39:12] but then ultimately

[00:39:14] God does what he does.

[00:39:17] Mm-hmm.

[00:39:18] Yeah,

[00:39:18] and so I think

[00:39:19] we're terrible gauges.

[00:39:21] Now,

[00:39:21] you know,

[00:39:21] I still force myself

[00:39:22] to listen

[00:39:23] to my messages

[00:39:24] and on my brave days

[00:39:26] to watch them

[00:39:27] because I think

[00:39:28] I'm awkward

[00:39:29] and,

[00:39:30] you know,

[00:39:30] I don't enjoy

[00:39:31] watching myself.

[00:39:32] I've gotten used

[00:39:33] to listening to myself,

[00:39:34] but I still don't

[00:39:34] really love it.

[00:39:35] Like,

[00:39:36] I'd prefer to take a pass,

[00:39:38] but I think

[00:39:39] I have to do that

[00:39:40] to try to figure out,

[00:39:41] okay,

[00:39:41] where am I making

[00:39:42] this message

[00:39:42] more difficult

[00:39:43] to hear

[00:39:44] than it needs to be?

[00:39:46] And then

[00:39:47] where am I

[00:39:48] maybe connecting

[00:39:49] with people

[00:39:50] and how do I

[00:39:51] do more of that?

[00:39:52] Okay.

[00:39:53] Well,

[00:39:53] this is,

[00:39:54] yeah,

[00:39:55] as we come

[00:39:55] to a close,

[00:39:56] maybe the final question,

[00:39:58] as you're preparing

[00:39:59] for January 22nd,

[00:40:01] you're going to preach

[00:40:02] about AI

[00:40:03] and a bunch

[00:40:04] of other stuff.

[00:40:05] Like,

[00:40:05] what are you,

[00:40:06] what are you hoping

[00:40:08] that is going

[00:40:09] to be a little bit

[00:40:09] better this time

[00:40:11] than the last time

[00:40:12] that you preached?

[00:40:12] Like,

[00:40:13] what's,

[00:40:13] like,

[00:40:13] what's something

[00:40:13] that you,

[00:40:14] as you've been listening,

[00:40:15] as you've been watching yourself

[00:40:16] that you think like,

[00:40:17] ah,

[00:40:17] I got to improve

[00:40:18] in this

[00:40:19] or that was good.

[00:40:19] I want to do that again,

[00:40:20] but better.

[00:40:21] I preach with more heart.

[00:40:23] Yeah.

[00:40:24] I preach with more heart.

[00:40:25] I'm,

[00:40:25] I'm very good

[00:40:26] at preaching

[00:40:27] to the head

[00:40:27] and this is a relational,

[00:40:30] I'm just pulling up

[00:40:30] my notes right now.

[00:40:31] This is like

[00:40:32] very much

[00:40:33] a relational thing.

[00:40:34] The other thing

[00:40:34] I'm very aware of,

[00:40:35] I've been married

[00:40:37] 33 years.

[00:40:38] I'm talking about dating.

[00:40:39] I've never downloaded

[00:40:41] a dating app

[00:40:41] in my life.

[00:40:42] I have no idea

[00:40:43] how they operate.

[00:40:45] I,

[00:40:45] you know,

[00:40:46] dating's so different

[00:40:47] than it was

[00:40:48] back when I was

[00:40:49] in school

[00:40:50] dating my wife.

[00:40:51] So,

[00:40:52] I'm kind of clueless

[00:40:53] and I also realize

[00:40:54] they're going to look at me

[00:40:55] and there's a white guy

[00:40:57] in his late 50s

[00:40:58] telling me how to live my life.

[00:40:59] So,

[00:41:00] I have to stay out of the,

[00:41:02] you know,

[00:41:03] skinny jeans aren't anymore,

[00:41:04] but the skinny jean pastor

[00:41:05] trying to be cool

[00:41:07] to the next generation.

[00:41:08] I got to stay out of that.

[00:41:10] But I think I can speak

[00:41:11] from the heart.

[00:41:12] I think I can speak

[00:41:14] authoritatively

[00:41:15] about how

[00:41:16] important relationships are

[00:41:17] and how they're kind of

[00:41:19] the secret sauce

[00:41:20] while at the same time

[00:41:22] understanding that,

[00:41:23] yeah,

[00:41:23] it's a really different world

[00:41:25] out there

[00:41:25] and it's going to be

[00:41:26] a tough one.

[00:41:27] I'm just trying to find

[00:41:28] my notes right now.

[00:41:30] There it is.

[00:41:30] I've got my sermon ideas

[00:41:32] almost ready to go.

[00:41:33] Is it in there?

[00:41:35] Yeah.

[00:41:36] Oh, yeah.

[00:41:37] So, I've got like,

[00:41:37] do you want to hear this?

[00:41:39] By all means, yeah.

[00:41:40] I haven't started writing yet.

[00:41:41] And don't worry,

[00:41:42] this won't be released

[00:41:43] until about February,

[00:41:44] so there'll be no spoilers.

[00:41:45] So, this is all.

[00:41:46] And besides,

[00:41:46] nobody listens to this anyway.

[00:41:49] There's an article

[00:41:50] in The Hustle

[00:41:51] on,

[00:41:52] and I'll find the link to it,

[00:41:54] on how you can communicate

[00:41:56] with the dead

[00:41:57] because people really miss the dead.

[00:41:59] So, that's relational.

[00:42:00] Okay.

[00:42:01] And it's all using AI.

[00:42:02] Yeah.

[00:42:02] Okay.

[00:42:03] Yeah.

[00:42:03] Yeah.

[00:42:04] Yeah.

[00:42:04] Yeah.

[00:42:04] Virtual sex bots.

[00:42:06] Why are people so devoted

[00:42:08] to their pets?

[00:42:09] Have pets replaced

[00:42:10] human relationships?

[00:42:11] Scott Galloway has data

[00:42:13] on loneliness

[00:42:14] and how many friendships

[00:42:15] people actually have.

[00:42:18] Yeah.

[00:42:19] Just a real comment.

[00:42:20] I don't know if this will go anywhere.

[00:42:21] It could be a creative idea.

[00:42:23] But you know when you're calling

[00:42:24] that 1-800 number

[00:42:25] or that company

[00:42:26] and it's like,

[00:42:27] you know,

[00:42:28] if you want this,

[00:42:28] press five.

[00:42:29] It's like,

[00:42:29] can I just talk to a human?

[00:42:31] Can I just talk to an actual person?

[00:42:33] A couple of articles.

[00:42:35] I don't know where these lead to.

[00:42:37] Oh,

[00:42:38] The Hustle saying that people

[00:42:39] aren't meeting on dating apps anymore.

[00:42:41] They're meeting on Yelp

[00:42:43] and other apps like that.

[00:42:44] I don't know.

[00:42:45] I'll ask some Gen Z about that.

[00:42:47] And then I got some notes

[00:42:49] which all of

[00:42:50] leads us to cancel culture.

[00:42:51] You know what we do?

[00:42:52] We cancel our friends

[00:42:54] because we don't like them anymore.

[00:42:55] But you know who God left us with?

[00:42:57] The family and the church.

[00:42:59] So,

[00:43:01] you can't cancel your family.

[00:43:03] I mean,

[00:43:03] you can do that

[00:43:04] by building a boundary.

[00:43:05] And the church

[00:43:06] is a really weird thing.

[00:43:07] It's one of the only places

[00:43:08] in culture

[00:43:09] where you're going to sit

[00:43:10] next to somebody

[00:43:11] who doesn't make

[00:43:12] the same amount of money,

[00:43:13] doesn't live in the same neighborhood,

[00:43:14] may not have your skin color,

[00:43:16] doesn't have your preferences

[00:43:17] and likes

[00:43:18] because we have such a curated

[00:43:21] aspect to our friendships now

[00:43:23] that we basically,

[00:43:24] you know,

[00:43:24] Mike,

[00:43:24] maybe all your friends have beards.

[00:43:26] I don't know.

[00:43:27] Like,

[00:43:27] maybe all my friends

[00:43:28] are clean shaven.

[00:43:30] Dave Ramsey says

[00:43:31] you hang around

[00:43:31] with people

[00:43:32] who are within

[00:43:33] 15% of your current income.

[00:43:36] Well,

[00:43:36] the church,

[00:43:37] if it's doing its job,

[00:43:38] is the opposite of that.

[00:43:39] Right.

[00:43:39] And it's actual real community

[00:43:41] and it's what you need to live.

[00:43:43] So,

[00:43:43] none of that is a sermon,

[00:43:44] but those are my

[00:43:45] notes

[00:43:46] with six weeks to spare

[00:43:48] heading into

[00:43:49] a sermon.

[00:43:52] Yeah,

[00:43:53] what an insight.

[00:43:54] And yeah,

[00:43:55] if you were to start

[00:43:56] your prep

[00:43:56] on Thursday

[00:43:57] for the Sunday coming,

[00:44:00] yeah,

[00:44:00] you would either

[00:44:01] spend time

[00:44:02] looking for those

[00:44:02] cultural flashpoints

[00:44:04] or you'd be digging

[00:44:05] into the text

[00:44:06] and maybe

[00:44:07] not even enough time

[00:44:08] to dig in the text properly.

[00:44:09] So,

[00:44:10] to have this,

[00:44:11] I think you said,

[00:44:12] I heard you say

[00:44:12] somewhere else

[00:44:13] that preaching

[00:44:13] is like stew.

[00:44:14] The longer it simmers,

[00:44:16] the better it is.

[00:44:17] And you're kind of

[00:44:18] giving us a glimpse

[00:44:19] into some of the ingredients

[00:44:20] that have been simmering

[00:44:21] for a while

[00:44:22] and still have six weeks

[00:44:23] yet to go.

[00:44:25] Yeah,

[00:44:25] and you know what?

[00:44:26] I don't know

[00:44:26] whether any of these ideas

[00:44:27] are going to make

[00:44:28] the message.

[00:44:29] I'm pretty sure

[00:44:30] cancel culture

[00:44:31] and family

[00:44:31] and leading into the church

[00:44:33] will make the message.

[00:44:34] Yeah.

[00:44:34] And I don't know

[00:44:35] whether I'm going

[00:44:35] Old Testament

[00:44:36] or New Testament

[00:44:37] with this yet.

[00:44:38] I'll sit down

[00:44:39] and study some texts

[00:44:40] and look at

[00:44:41] the text

[00:44:42] that probably

[00:44:44] is going to pop

[00:44:44] the most

[00:44:46] for a culture

[00:44:47] that doesn't know

[00:44:48] how to do

[00:44:48] relationship anymore.

[00:44:50] And you know what?

[00:44:51] By revisiting this,

[00:44:52] I got to write down,

[00:44:53] there's a story

[00:44:53] of an 18-year-old.

[00:44:55] I was going to write down

[00:44:56] Cabo Press.

[00:44:57] That was the conference

[00:44:58] I was at

[00:45:00] where an 18-year-old

[00:45:01] told me the story

[00:45:02] that I don't have time

[00:45:03] to relay.

[00:45:04] But that might make it

[00:45:05] into the message too.

[00:45:06] So again,

[00:45:07] I got these random ideas.

[00:45:08] You can see how simple it is.

[00:45:10] Oh,

[00:45:11] overexposed.

[00:45:11] It's pretty bright.

[00:45:12] I trust you.

[00:45:13] One page.

[00:45:13] One page.

[00:45:15] And those are just ideas.

[00:45:17] But now,

[00:45:17] I don't go in

[00:45:18] and I stare

[00:45:19] at a blank screen.

[00:45:20] And I'm like,

[00:45:21] God,

[00:45:21] what do you want me to do?

[00:45:22] And I read all of that stuff,

[00:45:24] but because I knew

[00:45:25] I was speaking

[00:45:26] about the subject,

[00:45:27] I could write it down

[00:45:30] because I knew

[00:45:30] it was AI technology

[00:45:32] and relationships

[00:45:32] and what it's doing

[00:45:33] to our souls.

[00:45:35] If I picked that subject

[00:45:36] the week of,

[00:45:37] I would have seen

[00:45:38] all this stuff

[00:45:39] on AI and relationships

[00:45:40] and would have forgotten it

[00:45:42] and deleted it by now.

[00:45:43] Yeah.

[00:45:43] Wouldn't even come back to me.

[00:45:45] Sure.

[00:45:45] Sure.

[00:45:46] Well,

[00:45:46] that's great.

[00:45:47] And you know,

[00:45:47] this episode,

[00:45:48] as I mentioned,

[00:45:49] it's going to come out

[00:45:50] after you preach the sermon.

[00:45:51] So I'll definitely have the link

[00:45:53] in the show notes

[00:45:53] if anyone wants to see

[00:45:54] what did we hear?

[00:45:56] How does it actually

[00:45:57] get communicated?

[00:45:58] So that'll be really interesting.

[00:45:59] And just to save your inbox,

[00:46:00] it's January 21st,

[00:46:02] I think.

[00:46:03] 21st.

[00:46:03] Okay.

[00:46:04] It's a Monday.

[00:46:04] So we're not like

[00:46:05] some weird cult

[00:46:07] that just meets on Monday.

[00:46:08] Okay.

[00:46:09] The first day,

[00:46:09] I just looked at that.

[00:46:11] You know,

[00:46:11] when I was a preacher,

[00:46:12] I knew every single Sunday

[00:46:14] for the entire year.

[00:46:16] It's a strange skill set,

[00:46:17] isn't it?

[00:46:17] I can still count by sevens

[00:46:18] with incredible skill.

[00:46:19] Yes.

[00:46:20] Well,

[00:46:21] hey,

[00:46:21] on that,

[00:46:22] I really appreciate

[00:46:23] this conversation.

[00:46:24] It's been great

[00:46:25] to learn from you

[00:46:26] via books and podcasts,

[00:46:28] but this conversation

[00:46:29] has been great.

[00:46:30] And I'll have links.

[00:46:32] I'm sure everyone

[00:46:33] already knows

[00:46:34] about the

[00:46:34] Kerry Newhoff Leadership Podcast,

[00:46:36] but if they don't,

[00:46:37] I'll have a link

[00:46:37] in the show notes as well.

[00:46:38] And yeah,

[00:46:39] Kerry,

[00:46:40] and appreciate your time.

[00:46:41] And for the listeners

[00:46:42] of this show,

[00:46:42] I hope that this conversation

[00:46:44] and all that we do

[00:46:44] help you to grow

[00:46:45] in your personal study

[00:46:46] and public proclamation

[00:46:47] of God's word.

[00:46:48] Thanks, Kerry.

[00:46:50] Well,

[00:46:51] thanks for listening

[00:46:52] all the way to the end.

[00:46:54] And I really do encourage you

[00:46:57] to check out the show notes.

[00:46:59] It has links to the book

[00:47:02] Kerry and I were discussing

[00:47:03] at your best,

[00:47:04] as well as some related episodes

[00:47:07] that the podcast

[00:47:08] has put out over the years

[00:47:09] about time management

[00:47:10] and priorities.

[00:47:12] And I hope that

[00:47:14] we will journey

[00:47:16] into this year better.

[00:47:17] Just kidding.

[00:47:18] I hope that you

[00:47:19] will journey

[00:47:20] into this year better.

[00:47:22] Remember,

[00:47:22] Kerry taught us

[00:47:23] that we should not say we,

[00:47:24] but we should say you.

[00:47:26] So I hope you

[00:47:27] grow

[00:47:28] in your personal study

[00:47:29] and public proclamation

[00:47:30] of God's word.

[00:47:32] Look forward to seeing you

[00:47:33] in January

[00:47:34] with some new episodes

[00:47:36] and some fresh content

[00:47:37] for your enjoyment.

[00:47:40] God bless you.

[00:47:41] See you next Tuesday.

[00:47:42] This podcast is a part

[00:47:44] of CGN Media,

[00:47:45] a podcast network

[00:47:46] that points to Christ.

[00:47:47] We are supported

[00:47:48] by listeners like you.

[00:47:49] To help us create

[00:47:50] more great shows,

[00:47:51] visit cgnmedia.org

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