Preaching Proverbs with Craig Babcock

[00:00:00] I have a view of Proverbs, and what I'm promoting or what I'm putting forward is an idea that Proverbs has a narrative throughout the entire view of the book. So there's a narrative literary structure throughout Proverbs, but it's not right there present.

[00:00:17] It's more in line with something that would be in stoic writing, which is still considered wisdom. And stoics had some use of and meditations of a lifetime, and you could actually follow their life through their meditations. Sages did this.

[00:00:35] And I do believe that Proverbs follows that line of the sun that we find in Proverbs 1. All the way to Proverbs 31, we see a line of a righteous man's life. So you can see how a righteous man lives throughout Proverbs.

[00:00:56] Hey, welcome to the Expositors Collective podcast episode 335. I'm your host, Mike Neglia. Well, Proverbs is a pretty easy book to teach if you just dip into its topics and its themes. And then if you teach it, topically or thematically.

[00:01:14] But it can be much harder to teach it sequentially and expositionally. This week's guest Craig W. Babcock believes that it's worth it. And in this conversation, we talk about the wise and the house of preaching Proverbs expositionally.

[00:01:35] That takes up the bulk of the conversation, but also there's some really cool stuff in there too about an initiative within his own church to raise up the next generation of faithful expositors.

[00:01:47] And then also I talk to him about what it's like to wear a suit every day for two years straight. I know that you're going to enjoy this conversation. But before we start, I want to tell you about something exciting. Expositors Collective is coming to Africa.

[00:02:03] We've been invited to Campalla, Uganda to do a three day training event for preachers and ministry leaders encouraging them and then helping them in their personal study and public proclamation of God's word.

[00:02:20] We want to see more and more Christ centered, careful biblical expositors in the nation of Uganda. So for that reason, I'm coming from my adopted home country of Ireland and I'm bringing along one of the leaders from my church.

[00:02:36] And we're going to be joined by Brian Kelly and Ed Compion from the Cultivate Church Pantin Initiative. And of course we get to partner with some outstanding local Ugandan leaders. And we are so excited to invest in the pastors who are serving in their own communities.

[00:02:55] Here's the thing. We're charging anything for this event. Usually we do, and that's how we cover travel expenses and host and expenses of these type of things. But we want to be a blessing to the host church, Calvary Campalla, and to the nation.

[00:03:12] And that is where you can come in. Here's the question. Do you want to sponsor an expositor? So the cost for accommodations and for food for each pastor who's coming. I'm told it's going to be about 150 US dollars per pastor.

[00:03:30] And the reason why is because many of them are traveling from afar distance from the countryside to come into the city. We want to put them up in a hotel, we want to feed them well during this three day event.

[00:03:44] There's a link in our show notes or on our website where you can give. And I believe it's going to go a long way to help our Ugandan brothers and sisters to grow in their personal study and public proclamation of God's word.

[00:04:00] You're going to hear more about this in the coming weeks and months, but don't miss out on this opportunity to invest in a really cool initiative. All right, here is my conversation with Craig Babcock of Village Calvary Church in Thornton, Colorado. Hey, welcome to the expositors, Collective Podcast.

[00:04:27] I'm honored to be speaking to Craig W. Babcock. How are you? I'm doing wonderful. How are you today? Good. We're in person. A lot of my interviews are done on Zoom and that's okay, but I like being with a person with a human. I get that.

[00:04:39] What's the W stand for? William. Okay. My son's name too. So we have a weird tradition, our family, where every first son gets named after their father's middle name. So, me too. Are you serious? Actually, my, I, me, my canagly broke that tradition.

[00:04:56] Well, my dad didn't name me. I was supposed to be named Tony and then he actually named me Anthony as a middle name instead of the first name. And that was like breaking this like long-standing, negatively-tradition. Well, nice to meet you, Tony. Yeah.

[00:05:08] I'm, I'm all, I'm a, I'm a, I conicalastic from birth. I'm always a conicalastic. Okay. Here's another tradition. You mentioned earlier that even wearing a suit every day for two years. Yes. Why?

[00:05:20] So the base reason I'm wearing a suit is actually to engage in the younger generation as a, yeah, from their cultural perspective. Yeah. So I, I noticed a trend within the culture, especially here in Colorado.

[00:05:35] And that was there's a deep desire for something that's traditional and something that we can, that's tangible. Yeah. You can physically understand your historical roots. Yeah. So, and it's, it's really counter-cultural to what we do or what we think of.

[00:05:51] And, but counter-cultural is kind of interesting because if you look at the, the boomers and their anti-authority and even Gen X, all of a sudden, we, everything was anti-authority or anti-tradition. And all in, I see the pendulum swift shifting towards more of something tangible, that's a historical roots.

[00:06:13] The reason I came to that was actually because I actually coach at the high schools. I'm a cross country and track coach. So I'm there all the time in public school. Yeah. And this was something that they're going for.

[00:06:23] And so you'd be amazed that I actually do formal dinners with my team. And I don't prescribe the dress coat. Yeah. The captains do, but it is always suit and high and dress. Yeah. And it's a bizarre shift and I'm not in a conservative area.

[00:06:41] So I'm in this really weird area. So I started to wear a suit. And all of a sudden, during that process, what I learned was the old generation hates it. Okay. So I'll go to a grocery store. Yes. And I will get evil looks from old men. Yeah.

[00:06:56] Young men shake my hand. Like, what is this? Shake your hand. Like no joke. Like next to me, just sir and I'm like, Yeah. We go back to the 50s. Yeah. But I guess that's yeah. So fascinating. Well, okay. So we're at a cavalry, a global network,

[00:07:12] a cover-jappel, pastor's gathering. And then you walked in yesterday. And maybe like one, five six o'clock. And then I saw you and thought, oh, that's great. Some biocational guy is here. He just finished up a long day at work.

[00:07:26] And then now he's joining us because, I guess, yeah, in the coverage of a world, we tend to be kind of a dressing down. Right. But you are lifting the standard. I guess. Yes. Okay. This is not the main point of the podcast.

[00:07:39] But I just thought this is an actual interesting banter. You don't want to just tell everyone that they need to start wearing suits. It's very hot. Yeah. And you'll sweat a lot. I'll tell you that right now. Yes. But no.

[00:07:50] I think that everyone has their own conviction to wear. The crazy thing is, is at our church from the pastor of village Calvary. And we have a teaching team. I'm bringing up young men to preach the gospel. And I don't require them to wear any special clothes.

[00:08:06] But I notice the younger they are, the nicer they dress. But even on the Sunday morning. Yeah. And that is, you know, I have a guy that's a little bit older. He'll wear a Harley T-shirt. Yeah. Preaching. Yes.

[00:08:19] And then I'll have another guy in a three piece suit. Who is 20 to 30 years younger? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. This bizarre. Okay. A question, then maybe comment maybe not. But question. Okay. Why stop at suit? Why not? Clerical robes. Well, I, one, I wouldn't be opposed to it.

[00:08:39] Yeah. But I also lean weird. Okay. So I see the value in it. If you really want to go into that all-terred, traditional orthodox view. Yeah. And I do know, especially there is a, there is a move towards Catholicism and liturgy.

[00:08:57] We see that the growth in those, those two areas. Sure. And so I have some friends that go in there. But yeah. And then not the only ones who work like the robes. They're not. Are English and friends? And then yeah, there's, there's others.

[00:09:09] But for me, the suit is more something that's just traditional. Okay. It's a, it's a, it's a grab from the past. Yes. That allows for a connection throughout time. Not just to a profession or the lady. But realistically, the idea of something that's from the past comes together.

[00:09:29] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, for me, it's kind of like, I'm kind of finishing up kind of funerals, these and I've done a lot of funerals lately. And that season for funerals. It feels like it. You know, it really comes in waves.

[00:09:41] But so I've been like wearing a suit more than usual. And you know, you perform this ceremony. And then go on and then do other stuff wearing a suit. And like I hate to say this in connections, like a funeral, you know?

[00:09:53] But like wearing a suit, say to my desk, wearing a suit makes me feel like I want to show up. Like I'm here to work hard. So anyway, I'm just, I'm thinking about that. And then also too, I don't wear a suit when I preach,

[00:10:05] but I wear a collared long sleeve shirt every single time. Right. And I have a lot of tattoos. And I'm not like ashamed of them, but I think they could be distracting. And so I always wear a long sleeve shirt.

[00:10:19] And I encourage other people to do that, and they don't. Sometimes they don't. The casual, the t-shirt. But I think, I think the, I'm happy between, I think the pulpit befits like a little bit of dignity, a little bit of honor.

[00:10:32] And so who knows, maybe you'll have a good influence on me? Well, I was the same way. I wore a collared shirt, plaid collared shirt actually. Like at the first nine years I was pretty cheap. That's the start. It's the end of the day.

[00:10:45] Well, I also just look like a, you know, reformed guy. Because I'm a beard and you wear a plaid shirt in America. That's who you are. Okay. All right. Let's talk about Proverbs. Yes. So what makes Proverbs, like an interesting book?

[00:11:03] What makes it unique or different in the Bible? So I would, Proverbs is, is you stand alone unique in the Bible? And one of the reasons it is is because it's in the, the genre of wisdom literature.

[00:11:16] And wisdom literature, we is a, is a broad genre and it's a broad genre, because a genre because of the ancient Near East. And realistically it's actually broad because there's wisdom literature in South American ancient literature and literature from the, the actual East, the Far East.

[00:11:36] So we start to see this genre, but this genre is pretty broad. And you're, you're going to get narrative stories such as, as Job, which we have there. You have songs, which you see as song, as songs or song, as Solomon.

[00:11:49] You also have Ecclesiastes, which is a sermon. And but yet Proverbs is a unique books because it's actually more in line with meditations. It's more in line with one line or one state couple. Or couples is, that's, that's one of the forms within that.

[00:12:06] There's multiple forms, but it seems sporadic. And when you read it, it's a bunch of just saints and how do they go together? How do they fit really makes Proverbs a unique book?

[00:12:18] It's also unique because it's 31 chapters, which has kind of made it famous to read every day. Yes. So you're like, oh, I'm going to have a proper bed day. Right. And, but you read it. And how does this all fit together?

[00:12:30] Yes. So that's one of the reasons Proverbs is so unique as a book. Yes. In the Bible. Yeah. So in my circles, you know, I think about preaching a lot. I talk to people about preaching a lot. And this has come up in a few different conversations.

[00:12:43] And like that the book of Proverbs is a very, very hard book to preach. And I think the reason why we think it's hard is because we think of it as 31 individual slices. And then within those slices, it's a series of just disconnected random abstract thoughts.

[00:13:02] Do you think that that is how Proverbs should be understood? No. Okay. Well, with a caveat, it can be understood that way.

[00:13:10] Okay. So I have a view of Proverbs and what I'm promoting or what I'm putting forward is an idea that Proverbs has a narrative throughout the entire day of the book. So there's a narrative literary structure throughout Proverbs. But it's not right there present.

[00:13:31] It's more in line with something that would be in stoic writing, which is still considered wisdom. And stoics had some use of and meditations of a lifetime. And you could actually follow their life through their meditations. Sages did this.

[00:13:49] I do believe that Proverbs follows that line of the sun that we find in Proverbs 1. All the way to Proverbs 31, we see a line of a righteous man's life. So you can see how a righteous man lives throughout Proverbs.

[00:14:11] So while it's not a narrative in the way that the gospels are narrative, you would say that there is a beginning, middle and end. Okay. Yes. So I see that Proverbs is broken up into four different collections and that's a kind of a standard view.

[00:14:29] It can go to between 4 and 8. I go with 4 because you can combine some collections. So you have collection 1, which is Proverbs 1 through 9. And Proverbs 1 through 9, if you read commentaries, if you're out there studying, you will see that most scholars believe there is a narrative in there.

[00:14:48] And that narrative is between the father and the son and the mother, the son and lady wisdom, lady the son and Davy Folly. So you start to see that this interplay between them. And you actually can go from a young age to an older age within there.

[00:15:06] So you see this education based system. It's almost like you're going to school. And so we have a narrative in there. And that's the beginning of that structure because it's not clearly, you know, the son, well, we don't even know who the son is.

[00:15:21] The son Bob, you know, went to school in 1st grade. That's how it's written. It just begins with the son. It's clearly a young age. And there's aging in there within that first collection.

[00:15:35] So you begin to see that collection. And in that collection, you actually have some distinct breaks that we can get to that really point to that. And that is actually the evolution of wisdom in Proverbs 4 the son.

[00:15:51] And I mean evolution because wisdom is something that you're not born with. Okay. If you actually look right at the beginning, you know, well, I like to say the fear of the Lord is the beginning of what? Wisdom. You can't afford knowledge.

[00:16:05] So and that's actually very sweet. So it actually starts in Proverbs 1. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Well, okay, I said, and or not.

[00:16:15] You're right. We normally say that and you'll get to wisdom, we'll get to wisdom. But you actually see we have to start with there's knowledge before wisdom. And we actually even in the Prologue which is the first seven verse of chapter 1,

[00:16:28] we see Solomon who I do believe wrote Proverbs. It tells us all about Proverbs within there. But it also brings us from that young point and that father, the son, the mother in that first chapter. And even the example based that they give only in chapter 1.

[00:16:48] So they give this example of the young son. And then you go all the way to chapter 9, well 9 verse 10 or chapter 9 verse 10 says, The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. So you actually see a difference between the young son because you have children.

[00:17:06] I do. When they're young, do you ever say their wise? No. Yeah, they might be one day. You need to get some knowledge under you. Yeah.

[00:17:17] But as they grow, the goal of any father and if you really look at it, put yourself in this position is to have their child have wisdom. And at the end of his time, there is wisdom that the son now gets.

[00:17:34] So it's almost like a, it's an evolution of hit the son's walking through to become wise. And we usually stop right here at chapter 9. Okay. There's a narrative. It's done. Yes. Yes.

[00:17:48] So it seems like you might be suggesting that it's going from the journey from knowledge into wisdom and then it begins the wise sayings that take place afterwards. The wise sayings actually begin with the next stage of life.

[00:18:01] Okay. So the other interesting thing is I do suggest that the relationship between Lady Wisdom and the son is a marriage relationship. Oh, okay. And the reason I say that is because wisdom builds her house with the son.

[00:18:16] The only time we ever get terminology like this is in his later in Proverbs and Song-A-Song. And it's clearly a marriage-based thing. So we have marriage within within the book. Yeah. And what happens when you marry? You build a house, but what are you building up home?

[00:18:38] You build a home. You build a family. You're supposed to leave and leave. Oh, yes, okay. Are you all these tricky questions? No, no, no. Somebody possibly answers. Because it's all wrong. Right, but it's supposed to lead out.

[00:18:50] Yeah. So we kind of see that that formal leg I'm raising my child. That the child is going to school and you're moving it into now. What happens when you leave? You start a family. You start a family. You build a home. Life becomes chaotic. Yeah.

[00:19:07] Okay. By tummy Craig. No, no. Realistically life is weird at that point. Think of today for you. How many different elements of life have you gone through today? This is, yeah. This is a strange one. I'm at a pastoral gathering.

[00:19:24] So I've just been, I've been on the executive team. We had executive meeting. And then I attended kind of these group discussions. And now I'm a podcast host. So today I've only been in three different stages. Have you texted your wife? I have.

[00:19:39] All right. So you're also a husband. Correct. So have you dealt with anything else in the home front? Home front? No. So you've been, no. No. But I got to email reminding me about a blog post that's Do some also writer. I suppose. Yeah.

[00:19:52] So now you're going from one thing to the next. Yeah. That was even reminders about like a home stuff. I'm a, yeah. Okay. Yeah. You're right. Even on my simplest day. It's all over the place. That's right. Yes.

[00:20:04] So why would us go in from school or an education base system? Yeah. And a lot look at that. Going into the real world. We know life is ghost here to hear, to hear. We also know something very unique. It repeats itself.

[00:20:18] Have you ever felt like you've done the same thing over and over again? I can imagine yes. Well, Proverbs has a weird thing of repeating itself. Yeah. Yeah. There's a proverb in chapter 10 that's the same in chapter. You know, yes. Yeah.

[00:20:31] What not? And we start to see that there's a repetitive nature of the way we operate. Yeah. So as nine goes to 10. There's a narrative shift. And the narrative shift is actually found in the first verse when it says, A wise son makes a glad father.

[00:20:48] But a foolish son is a sorrow to his mother. This is the last time the father and mother are mentioned. Really? Okay. And so we have a leave and cleave moment. But we also, this is a really cool thing. Have you ever been asked the question?

[00:21:06] This is side note not about teaching. I'm going to teach us a little bit. How do you leave and cleave? How do you honor your parents when you've already married? Hmm. Have you ever, because we get asked that question as pastures, right? Yeah.

[00:21:17] Well, it actually tells us in Proverbs. If you're a wise son, you're honoring your father. Yeah. But if you're foolish, your dishonoring your parents. Which by the way is kind of a weird view. It's a really cool thing.

[00:21:31] So you start to see the relationship move on to a narrative structure of the sun, traveling through life. How do you teach that? When you have to fill in some of the blanks and you have to apply it to everyday life.

[00:21:49] And what I mean by that is as you see how things apply, you apply them to how your life or anybody's life travels throughout the day. Because none of these are only true in the ancient Near East. Sure. Of course. True throughout all of humanity.

[00:22:10] We know that it would be go from fearing the Lord to wanting to make money. Well, how do you have that relationship? Hmm. How do you deal with sorrow and loss? Proverbs in the narrative actually tells us this.

[00:22:26] And there's weird shifts in Proverbs that can only really be explained as we age or we move on in life. We can't just take them in a vacuum. Now you can't take them in a vacuum. Sure. Can't take them just in a vacuum. Yes.

[00:22:41] It makes it a little easier to digest than producing 32 sermons in one sermon as you go through Proverbs chapter 10. Got it. Yeah, with those 32 verses. Now, okay. So you understand that as it's starting in childhood gaining knowledge, gaining wisdom

[00:22:58] knowledge and then from 10 onwards it addresses the maturing son who is married and grows into a man. Is there does that mean that there's a trajectory or an assent or a pattern that I haven't noticed in verses, chapter 10, verse 31? Oh yes, there's a pattern within it. Okay.

[00:23:21] You actually see the foolishness. Yes. Proverbs is not usually associated with foolishness. Well, other than it's bad. Yes, on the contrary, it's about wisdom.

[00:23:30] But there is a foolishness that we have in life and there is a distinct break in Proverbs and it's a weird spot because it's in chapter 15. Okay. So before chapter 15, the son is or the author of Proverbs is almost obsessed with prosperity.

[00:23:52] It's almost like we are because you get all your prosperity verses. You get in all toil there is profit. Yeah. These kind of verses. Yes. You have this prosperity thing. But then you have this really weird thing that happens at the end of 14.

[00:24:07] And the end of 14, you start to see a conflict that arises. We don't know what it is. But you start to see that there's this conflict between a king and the men and the kid, the son is somehow within there.

[00:24:25] He's somehow in this place of going, what do I do here? And it starts to talk about the tongue of the wise and you start to see the wrath go on. And you start to see this interesting development.

[00:24:42] All because the son before told us that he was in a king's palace. Okay. But as he moves on, we get an in the middle of Proverbs. Proverbs 15 16, we go from prosperity to this is what it reads.

[00:25:01] Better is a little with the fear of the Lord than great treasure and trouble with it. It is the most bizarre birth verse in Proverbs because you have a shift from profit base. Okay. Now just have a little bit. Yeah. Okay.

[00:25:20] So what I'm trying to describe is the narrative. Yeah. Okay. And how do we preach that? Well, you start to you have to put together okay, what came before these are truths. Address the truth. But also address where it is in the passage. Yes. Okay. Craig. Yes.

[00:25:41] So are you saying that in order to truly understand the passage, we need to imagine things that aren't in the passage? I'm telling you to read the passage and understand the place in life someone is. Okay. So not imagine.

[00:25:59] But it is wisdom is a place that is that crosses culture, time, and space. All wisdom, what is wise here is wise everywhere. It is amazing to parallels in wisdom literature from cultures that never touched. You see these amazing parallels. Yeah. Okay.

[00:26:21] And a lot of it shows the echoes of God. Right. Now you've done a lot more reading on this than I have. I'm aware of like some Egyptian wisdom literature that is very, very similar to Proverbs or possibly like echoes of it. Is that clear to you?

[00:26:38] So well, and it's your view of how the ancient Near East literature associates with the Bible. I take a very my stance is that wisdom or literature has an echo of all of creation. Right. Yeah.

[00:26:54] So because the Bible is true, that's why the parallels of ancient Near East all work out. Yeah. For wisdom, the Bible is true. There's teaching from it. But there's eternal truth and that's the reason there's echoes.

[00:27:07] But wisdom is kind of a unique thing because wisdom was given to mankind as observable. So wisdom is not gained from your inner self. There's no wisdom literature that says that. Yeah. It's either top-by-sage or you observe it from nature. Yes.

[00:27:26] Because wisdom is observable from nature, it is similar to each other. And so that is a, so is wisdom a common grace available to the nations of the world? Yes. Okay. Yes. And okay.

[00:27:43] And then for that question, so we have the offices of the anointed offices of profit-free-sinking. Yes. Would you include profit-free-sking and sage as the anointed or do you just look at sage as just like they just exist throughout? There are men who have just observed how life works.

[00:28:00] They've noticed it and they become sage's? Well, I would actually, I would not say it's an anointed office because we don't really have that office throughout societies throughout cultures. If it was observable through multiple cultures, I would say yes, but because it's not.

[00:28:15] But a sage does something that's unique. It is a man that has observed and has been hot. Right. And that becomes a sage. One that desires a wise, wise life. The sad thing is it can be sage's that reject God. Yes. And they can have wisdom. Yes.

[00:28:39] We call worldly wisdom. Even wisdom that echoes proverbs. Yes. And worldly wisdom comes from observing God's worlds and noticing patterns. Yes. And so I wouldn't be careful about quote out of the context. But worldly wisdom isn't necessarily foolishness. It's not necessarily foolishness. Yes.

[00:29:01] It's void of the creator, so you are a fool. Yeah. Yeah. So we're through that. I think it's not void of foolishness. It's kind of like saying, well, God makes the sunrise and the east. That's right. I could observe that. I understand that. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Okay.

[00:29:18] Well, that's a tangent. The word that we call is the word of the word of the word of the word of the word.

[00:29:22] So we've seen this, you know, born child gains wisdom, gets to sorry gains knowledge, gets wisdom, experiences life, possibly starting a family, enjoys the prosperity, conflict with the king, cast out and then now has learned to be satisfied with less. Yes. Kind of like David. It very much.

[00:29:43] Okay. And then where's the thing we talk about like friendship, taking closer than brothers? I'm not exactly. Yeah, true friends. Yeah. But yes, it is in progress. Yeah. I hope is it in 15 following? Well, we'll add it to the show notes guys. We'll check it out. Yes. Okay.

[00:29:59] And then I have not memorized progress. Are there other progressive life patterns that take place in progress? Yeah. There is. Yeah. Walk us through. And then there's some questions for you about preaching it. So when we walk through this, you start to see this shift in collection too.

[00:30:13] And collection two is the life of the man. So as the life of the man goes, you start to see proper of 16 really put God at the center. Okay. So the yaw way is at the center and he commits his work to the yaw way in chapter 16, verse 3.

[00:30:30] And he even has plans. He has plans. But he knows that yaw way or God establishes them. This is how his speech begins to change. But the interesting thing is you start to see the parallels of just because he's committed his life to there.

[00:30:49] They're still the reality that life still happens, the sporadic nature of life, all those things. So we start to see all of this and then we get into our next collection. And our next collection is starting to get to where the sun is becoming wise.

[00:31:08] So collection 3 is in starts in verse 20, chapter 22, verse 17. So we go now to this arrangement that happens where collection two begins to see a return of the sun becoming a stage and providing wisdom. So now he has y statements.

[00:31:32] In fact there's even people from afar because it tells us that people from afar come to see the stage. So we know there's a narrative in there, but where is it? We don't know. They're coming to him to guess. Yes.

[00:31:46] So we start to see them come to him and he starts to teach them, but it's not a child. He teaches an adult. Okay. So because these men are sent by kings to go find this sun or the person that's writing prophets.

[00:32:08] Yes, the word adult marriage sun is now esteemed so much so that MSRs would come to learn from him. Absolutely. And so now you actually are getting back into a teachable thing for our church.

[00:32:22] So when we're preaching this now we have to know okay he's teaching us as if he's telling these men what to learn almost like a crash course in wisdom. It's hard. Yeah. But it's a crash course in wisdom. Yes.

[00:32:35] So we start to see that move through and then we get the next break and the next break begins with the Hezekiah collection in 25. And this is really bizarre so I'll because Solomon clearly doesn't write this.

[00:32:53] It says verse 25 says these are the Proverbs of Solomon which the men of Hezekiah the king copied. Okay. So he sent them. Yes. But he didn't write them right. He hasn't kind of did. He's a bit later. He's a bit later. Yeah, he's a bit later.

[00:33:12] We know that this comes in there. So how does this fit in? Well if you're a wise man especially back in the ancient Israel your words are going to be recorded. They're going to be taught. You're going to start having other people interpret your own words.

[00:33:30] I mean how many times have you heard someone quote somebody else? Oh yeah, in essence. Yeah. And is that person that quoted there to say that's in or out of context? Have you ever been quoted and you're like, yeah that's not really what I meant.

[00:33:45] Yeah even if you minutes ago I even said you know I'm very careful that this is in quoted a context. Yeah right so we start to see his work will be on his physical surroundings where he has no control over it.

[00:33:59] And then he moves forward and as he as these are recorded they are his saints but they're put in really weird orders. And that order is something that the men of Hezekiah decided on which actually shows

[00:34:15] you how they thought the order their order is or how they viewed their life. Okay. That was moment. Does that make sense? Yeah, this is new to me. No I understand don't worry. Yeah it's a bizarre it's a how yeah.

[00:34:34] And I want to get to to preachin it later on. So yeah, the quick question is like how how do you know that it's out of order? Like I don't say it's out of order. I say it's the order that they decided on.

[00:34:46] Solomon had no say in how they recorded it. And how he's been collated. Correct. Yeah. And he has doesn't say he has like 10,000 proverbs or there's a number of stars right? Yes, in sacred and chronicles. Okay yeah. So there's a bunch of, there's a bunch of proverbs.

[00:35:04] And they've been selected. Yes. And these are the ones that they selected and he didn't get to choose how or the order of them got it. And that actually demonstrates very much how a white righteous and wise man will live. Because they live beyond their era. Got it.

[00:35:23] Okay. As sage in this case lives beyond what he just did. So we start to see that one and then there's the two breaks at the very end. 30 and 31, which are also agar and let me know. What do you do with that? Yeah. I don't know.

[00:35:43] Tell me Craig. But it's actually unique because both of them are structured in a way of going back to collection one. Okay. Teaching somebody that is learning. Almost like a sage is going full circle and his, it is righteous block.

[00:36:02] And now not just having people come but diving deep into that young life into somebody that needs to learn. Yeah. Okay. So there's the narrative. Now how to teach it is your question. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Surely said in the intro.

[00:36:20] But you're almost completed a like doctoral work on problems. Correct. Yeah. So even thinking long and hard about this for quite a long time. I have been on a journey, I suppose, in the past couple of years where I used to think

[00:36:35] that there were two books in the middle of the Bible that had no flow at all. There were just two random collections of poems and then saints. And I have learned and been convinced that Psalms actually has clear structure and plan.

[00:36:53] Those are arranged in order and there's a tale, the essence that's definitely purposeful at how it's been collated and arranged. There's actually been a couple episodes of podcasts about this link in the description about how Psalms work. And problems has been a holdout.

[00:37:10] So I used to think, oh, there's two random books. Like, you know, like a mix-sap, like a playlist on shuffle in the Psalms and then problems is the same. And then now you are chipping away at the last remaining holdouts that maybe problems

[00:37:25] isn't so random after all either. Right. So congratulations. Oh, I'm not going to get out of my mind. I'm working out. Yeah. Hey, don't worry. I had in my view is not universally held. That was going to be my next question.

[00:37:38] So you're going to say, is it just make this up? Or like, no, who agrees with you? So there is some that agree with this from the Reform Era. It also sum from the 980. Okay. Specifically, there's an MR in modern day Iraq. Okay.

[00:37:59] That was my modern day Iraq. What's an MR? It's a sage. Okay. And that would actually took this view of Proverbs that has a literary structure. The difficulty is there's a lot of scholars do not see the structure. Okay.

[00:38:20] The issue that they run into though is they will go back and forth between this part has a structure, but this one does it. This part has a structure and this one doesn't. And we can definitely get into that when you start to look at the individual makeup

[00:38:36] and also the fact that Proverbs has a uses all forms of poetic literary structure in it. So it's not one easy form that, let's say, Psalms is or Psalms. Okay. It's all over. Okay. Yeah. If that makes sense. So that creates an issue of going, why are you?

[00:39:01] Why is the author going from this structure and A, B, B, A structure to a plus plus minus minus minus minus minus minus. Which I know is I just, you're like, what are, what is that? Some people know exactly what we're talking about. Yeah.

[00:39:19] So that's a kind of a structure and those are two very different structures. And so that's where the difficulty lies in Proverbs and why it seems so random. I suggest it's random because it emulates life. Okay. Okay. If that makes sense. Well, I agree. Life is random. Yeah.

[00:39:37] I also agree. Proverbs feels random. Yeah. But okay. So preaching Proverbs. So I preached Proverbs, three summers. To 2019. Okay. I preached. I did a whole summer in Proverbs and then I did what a lot of other preachers did.

[00:39:55] So I spent a few weeks going through, you know, introducing the idea of wisdom and then chapters one through nine. And then I came to ten and then I did, but everyone else did.

[00:40:04] Which was then I kind of became a bit of a topical study on the ideas. Money, anger, sex, marriage, etc. With a collection of Proverbs dipping in through chapters ten all the way to 31. And I did that and there's a long history of contemporary preachers doing that. Yes.

[00:40:27] Do you have a better way? Well, first off, was that okay? Absolutely. But you, I've learned that you are okay. You speak your mind. Okay. So if, like, yeah, is that okay? Well, I understand why you do that way and why it's the standard way.

[00:40:44] One because for you to find a resource, a on Proverbs 10 through 29. Because 30 and 31 have a lot of resources on them. But 10 through 29. Your commentaries are going to be lack because there's just not a lot of them.

[00:41:01] I mean, your best one is Michael Fox and that's with the Yale. I didn't read that one. No one, it is very technical. Michael, you don't strike me as someone who would be like, no.

[00:41:12] In order to read that one, it's one that you have to have a library access to. Okay. To get to. Okay. So he, he has a deep dive into it. But a lot of other books or commentaries really won't guide you through Proverbs.

[00:41:26] It's one of the least studied books from a commentary or a biblical scholarship books in the Bible because it's so hard. So I would tell you that if you're going to take Proverbs one at a time and group them

[00:41:42] together, that is not a horrible way to teach Proverbs. And why I say not a horrible way is it's a way that probably will speak a lot to your people. Yes. No, your exact preaching style. It's excellent. That's absolutely true.

[00:42:02] But there's some that will really tend as they preach to go towards a very application-based sermons. Even in Christ's centered preaching, application is part of it. But it's a very Baptist way of teaching.

[00:42:21] So if you go to Baptist seminaries or read books that are written by Baptist pastors, they will teach application-based sermons. And that idea is very, is blins right into Proverbs because you could be like, here's what it says about marriage. Sure. Yes. Yeah.

[00:42:41] It's not topical at that point because you are expositing the word is it true biblical exposition probably not. Right? That's not wine by wine building on each other. Yeah. And I got to say it stopped feeling like exposition.

[00:42:55] It felt like a series of topical messages and topical messages, they're not the worst thing in the world. No. I did know that I was in and I'm actually not the most practical application preacher and I always try to get better at it.

[00:43:07] But people loved that series because it was far more practical than Pastor Mike usually preachers. I think I was serving them but was I doing justice to the author of the little intense to Proverbs.

[00:43:20] I would say, I would say no to the intent because if Scripture is breathed by God and he deserved it, he preserved the order. Yep. And we would believe that about every other book. Right. But then again those two in the middle.

[00:43:39] And then you get to Proverbs, you know what do I do with? Yeah. So you have a few different options. One, you can because I taught Proverbs and I literally taught 30 different sermons a week in one. It was absolutely one of the hardest things I've ever done.

[00:43:58] And this was before I did my speech. My husband had heard from him to listen to it as well. Well, I just ping pongging around. I did it in 2020 because this was my idea. Yes. It's ridiculous.

[00:44:09] I knew, this was not what I was going to study of my PhD. I had a whole different plan than Proverbs but in 2020 I was like, you know, it's sporadic coming to church. We all know what happened 2020. And I was like, yeah, why not go to Proverbs?

[00:44:23] It's sporadic because I kind of had the same idea on this idea. Yeah. Okay. There's no better time than sporadic than now. Okay. That was my logic is flawed logic. Sure. My taught it was very much first by verse going into this, okay.

[00:44:42] This one and hitting topics after topics after topics. But I would suggest as you read this read it first of all as you study it not in 31 days. So get away from the 31 day mentality because that 31 day is actually I would say is the biggest disservice to Proverbs.

[00:45:01] Okay. Because it forces us to make it sporadic. Okay. My dad has been reading it once a day for like decades and I want to give a shout out to my dad because this is probably the only episode he's going to listen to because I'm

[00:45:12] going to send it to him and he loves Proverbs. Absolutely. Tell my dad what to do instead. So I don't hate that idea. What I mean by the service is it shops it up. What I would say is to read Proverbs in collections. So one through nine. Okay.

[00:45:28] 10 through 22. So those four chunks that you were talking about earlier. And you can break up the 10 through 22 but break them up into sections that are larger than just your passage. And you could break them up into you could go online and find different ways to break

[00:45:46] up Proverbs and they're going to naturally break them up into this sections about this, the sections about this. Read them in those sections. So get away from the one day. I'm not saying it forever but for one time you're reading through it and especially

[00:46:03] as you're studying it because then you're going to start to see okay this is starting to build on itself. So it's starting to lay a foundation of this wise man that's teaching me something.

[00:46:17] And then from there you can start to look and go okay why does he go from speaking about having all this profit to now he has nothing. That's a great question. And ask the questions in the proper way.

[00:46:36] And I believe that as you ask those questions just as if you were reading somebody's just thoughts throughout their life, you're going to start to see a pattern within there. And you can talk about how the home life affects the workplace because those commonly

[00:46:55] go hand in hand and hand in hand. Yeah, you see it's going from here to here. Yeah, all that's and those are the kind of the ideas that you have to go through. Yeah, because the way that I taught it and many people it's really atomized.

[00:47:10] It's there might be a verse about your home life and work life right next to each other. And then I've gone through and then I've extracted all the work and then given us everything about it because you know work is totally its own separate thing. Right.

[00:47:23] And the other thing that I'm going to say is that you have to add to you the challenges at home, they spill into work and the challenges at work. They drip into home. And it'll be I feel why is it already this great. Are they already?

[00:47:37] Yeah, and it will also allow for your congregation to start to see the patterns that they're struggling with. Why are we keep talking about marriage? Why is work such an important aspect of this? Why is following righteousness? Why is righteousness after everything? What is righteousness?

[00:47:58] Because that's another angle if you will. You could teach Proverbs through is that view through it as a journey of righteousness of life. Yeah, so okay. But what are some like so you mentioned the best resource which is inaccessible. Well, okay, it's not inaccessible.

[00:48:15] It's Michael Fox and that in he has a Proverbs it's with the anchor Bible commentary or the Yale Bible commentary either one. Yeah. He has them in both. That is a great version. There's also a book called Here My Hero My Sun, okay.

[00:48:31] That is by a state which is amazing book right there that I would suggest, especially for your first nine. He will teach you a lot on how that builds together. Realistically those are two areas that I would really point to.

[00:48:50] Some of the other elements of Proverbs is what I would do is I would with Proverbs drink wide with the people that have written about it. So the commentary that you have on your shelf that you never use, it's a full Bible commentary. Use it. Get specific.

[00:49:10] You could go to bestcommentaries.com. Those are going to be some of your best resources. But as far as like specific books, there's not really many that are written on the fullness of Proverbs. Sure. Yeah. That's one of the reasons why I'm writing my dissertation. Yeah.

[00:49:26] That's on the fullness of it. Yeah. That is happening. There's one that is coming out that I know but I haven't read it so I will not recommend it because and it's not out yet. I just have talked to these for a teaser. Yeah. So yeah. Excellent. Yeah.

[00:49:40] Well, yeah. For you to ask, but I would recommend. Yeah. Well, again, so from a, from a, in this, I'm a layman in this but I, I love Alec Machers commentary and I am just unabashedly just the biggest Ray Orland fan and I found his,

[00:50:00] you know, I wouldn't even call it a commentary. Isn't it preach the word series? And it's a collection of his sermons and he just seems, and the interactions have had with them.

[00:50:08] He just seems like a wise man that I want to live like and I appreciate his thing. And I've actually used that book as like a discipleship manual for two years straight. I've had like, I take groups of guys and kind of use that.

[00:50:20] I use the book of Proverbs and Ray Orland on top Proverbs for like series of discussions about those topics and now you're making me rethink everything. The other book I would recommend is by Christopher Anne Spary and it's B-wise my son and make my heart glad. Okay. Yeah.

[00:50:39] So, you know, I actually had to look up those things. We'll include that in the show notes. Okay. Here's a last question. Can we park Parvaps and just ask them the notes? You said at the beginning that you are currently forming and training a teaching team

[00:50:53] of young men in the church. Correct. And some of them were ties and some of them don't. Yes. What, what's that like and why are you doing that and you're in the primary your life. You don't need to be replaced. You're not moving anywhere anytime soon.

[00:51:05] Why are you raising up a teaching team of young men in the church? Well, this is actually a really interesting thing that God put in my life and I don't know how it happened.

[00:51:16] So I came to this church and as I, my story is I came to church to take over a church that was hurting and at that moment I came in there and I like any pastor that comes in

[00:51:30] does nothing for the first year and I didn't know who to turn to for teaching. And God just happened to plop in my lab. A man who was leading our men's Bible study and I was like, hey, you're leading our men's Bible study.

[00:51:46] I don't want to always be the only voice at church. Can you teach? And he's like sure. So I did what any, what I would suggest is wise and that is I made him prepare a sermon

[00:52:02] and I sat down myself and my executive pastor sat down in his living room and we let's do a bridge. And I was like, oh, okay. Well, that might be, that's really good. And it was one of those that bless your heart.

[00:52:21] Well, it, it, oh, it actually was good. You know, it was amazing. Oh, I'm sorry. I was, I took your sincerity. I was just like, oh, wow. Yeah, okay. And so I was like, I'm a little like you know, to teach.

[00:52:34] So in God just put that, but in that process, what ended up happening is I had four guys from around the area that decided that wanted to come to our church to be disciple to be pastors. Okay.

[00:52:49] And what I ended up doing was I said, okay, these guys, one, the church just can't, they, I have to at least be in the pulpit so much because if your lead pastor's not and

[00:52:59] the pulpit so much, you stop being a lead pastor and it, it, it, people start to question if you know what I'm saying. So I started this thing called Wednesday night training grounds, which is a Wednesday night service. I started a Wednesday night service when everyone's stopping them.

[00:53:14] Yeah. They're not cloning work, right? They're not cloning. So what I did is I formed this teaching team idea, the five, the five men. Yeah. Well, it's, it's four men plus my executive pastor. Okay. Because I needed an, I needed an old guy. He's an old Baptist pastor.

[00:53:28] Yeah. He's not that old. But is he the one who wears a holiday, are they Davison and Cher? No. Okay. It's a different kind. But I ended up saying, okay guys, what we're going to do is we're going to take a book.

[00:53:38] We're going to divide the book and you are going to teach in a rotation on Wednesday nights. And through that process, they've been teaching and teaching the word of God and what I do is I go over their sermons with them. Yeah. And I, I sit there.

[00:53:53] And so that's how I, we formed this. So they're all men that desire to be pastors. Is that how to be preaching pastors, not just a, you know, like a pastor that doesn't preach. Yeah. And I give them that opportunity we take notes.

[00:54:08] It's actually becoming out reach of our church because I sat down with our church. And this is what I said to him. I was like, guys, we're going to, we're starting this thing and you are actually serving God to come here and listen to bad sermons. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:24] And I didn't give any guarantee. I other than the one guy, the name is Jake. Yeah. I'm not a teacher, Jake. I gave no other like you guys are, they're going to be amazing. No, I actually said it's going to be as you're serving God. Yeah.

[00:54:36] And some of their first sermons were just as our first sermons. Right. Well, at least mine. I mean, my first one was good. Second, third, fourth, they were all bad. I read an article that said your first 200 sermons are going to suck no matter what. That's right.

[00:54:51] And I never took more comfort in my life. And that, that, that, that one article. So I let them teach and I started to see them grow as teachers, as pastors. And they've become in that sense a very vital aspect of our church.

[00:55:12] And to the point where you know, they can preach, most of them can preach anywhere they go. And it's kind of amazing. We actually just recently had a guy that desires to be a missionary.

[00:55:25] I just added him to the teaching schedule because one missionary has come to a church and they have to speak. It was like, even you go to a church and your missionary, but they're speak well. You want people to support you. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Yes.

[00:55:42] Okay, that's, that's amazing. So that's so. First I thought that your Wednesday night group was you and the four guys. I do not teach at Wednesday. No, you and four guys sitting on a couch talking. No, but no, it sounded like it's an actual service.

[00:55:56] All people serve as come to yes. And I actually, we're going bizarre with this. God's allowed me to do some weird things that have seen how church government works and also how preaching works. We are starting because of the influence of Wednesday.

[00:56:15] Our Wednesday is in Colorado, the statistic that I was, I've been told and seen. It's about 10% of your Sunday, congregation comes to a midweek service. Okay. We are not at 10%, we're about 35%. That decide to show up on Wednesday nights.

[00:56:32] So it's a kind of becoming a fairly large thing. It's so large that it actually is difficult for the new person to teach. I see. Okay. So we are starting another service, but I'm actually my elder board is required to also

[00:56:49] teach there because they have to be able to teach. That's right. I'm that they didn't have to be good at teaching. Yeah, I said you have to be able. That's right. And so we have an internal elder board like many churches and this was something and

[00:57:01] that actually created a lot of camaraderie. So we are that bizarre of a church that we're going to have multiple midweek services. Multiple midweek service. Yeah, but this is our church schedule. So I choose day night and that is my, I go for uncomfortable because if you're in

[00:57:18] a teacher person at teach, you want it to be horrible and comfortable. And I'm talking my goal, I told these guys, I said my goal is 10 people. Why? Because if you're faithful with preaching to 10, you're going to be faithful to preaching to a whole lot more.

[00:57:33] So we have our Tuesdays. I don't advertise it. It's really. No, yeah. Invite only. Well, I'm like, you guys can show up. The doors are open. I have worship. Yeah. Yeah. Everything's laid back, but they bring their friends, they bring their family, whatever. And they do it.

[00:57:48] Wednesdays are big one. And so our Wednesday night services are one. And then amazingly, we actually have a young adult on Thursday that's full of services well. So our midweeks are very, very full. Wow.

[00:58:01] Well, I hope you use the wisdom of proverbs and also manage your own work life and rest and Sabbath balance as well. But I use open. Well, correct. Thanks very much for this time. This is a really cool glimpse.

[00:58:12] It's like the interior workings of your church and the raising up of the next generation. And your outfits, but more of all, like I really appreciated. You've taught me things about proverbs even right here on the spot and I know the listeners

[00:58:24] are going to check out the show notes. Learn more and then maybe teach proverbs differently after this. Absolutely. Yeah, thank you. Cool. Thank you. And for the listeners of the podcast, I hope that this conversation and all the way to

[00:58:36] expositors collective, help you to grow in your personal study and public proclamation of God's Word. All right. Well, thanks for listening all the way to the end. I hope that you benefited and enjoyed that conversation.

[00:58:51] Maybe you can get to work in planning a preaching series through Proverbs right after this. I want to highlight once again that we are raising funds for our campala Uganda expositors collective. It's going to be in September. It's going to be in Uganda.

[00:59:10] And we need your help to make it happen. Follow the link in the show notes or visit expositorscollective.com to give you can sponsor an expositor and help enrich and bless the nation of Uganda partner with us in this. All right, hope you have a great week.

[00:59:33] I hope that this episode has helped you to grow in your personal study and public proclamation of God's Word. See you next Tuesday. This podcast is a part of CG and media. A podcast network that points to Christ.

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