Sermon Preparation: Step by Step with Brian Brodersen

[00:00:00] The title is the key. So I want to summarize in a title everything. This is what you're going to...

[00:00:07] You can read that title and go, I know what this sermon is going to be about. So for me,

[00:00:13] I spent a lot of time over the years just trying to come up, not really catchy title necessarily,

[00:00:18] but just a descriptive title. This is what this message is about. And sometimes that's my starting

[00:00:25] point. I'll think and think and think and think and think and think. This is the title, so this is

[00:00:29] where I'm going. Other times I will roll all the way through and then I'll think back to where, okay,

[00:00:34] now how do I want to title this? But the title is going to tell you what you're about to hear.

[00:00:42] Hey, welcome to the Expositors Collective Podcast, episode 351. I'm your host, Mike Neglia,

[00:00:49] and the voice that you just heard is that of our guest for this week, Brian Brodersen. The recording

[00:00:57] that you're going to hear is a workshop that Brian and I collaborated on back in June of 2024.

[00:01:05] We taught a workshop at the CGN, Calvary Global Network International Conference,

[00:01:12] and our workshop was about sermon preparation step-by-step. The journey from the pages of the

[00:01:22] Bible all the way to the printed pages of our sermon notes. And there's seven steps that we talk through.

[00:01:31] I thought it was a really fun and hopefully a helpful workshop for those who attended.

[00:01:37] And I'm looking forward for you to be able to listen into it. Brian and I, we agree on a lot of things,

[00:01:45] but there's a few spirited disagreements that come up in this conversation. And, uh, and we remain friends,

[00:01:51] uh, regardless of these, these disagreements. I, I hope that this is a stimulating and thought

[00:01:58] provoking conversation for you that helps you in your personal study and your public proclamation

[00:02:06] of God's word. Well, without any further ado, here's the recording from Brian Brodersen on sermon

[00:02:13] preparation step-by-step. I've heard you say over the years, you used to spend longer and now you

[00:02:26] spend less. Is that accurate? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And actually going back to, sorry, what was you?

[00:02:31] Garrett. Garrett was saying that he's kind of newer to Bible teaching and he's spending a lot of time

[00:02:36] on it. I think, I think that's actually really good to spend loads of time in the beginning because

[00:02:42] there's not to put words in your mouth, but I think he said once that there is a cumulative growth and

[00:02:47] accumulative familiarity with the scripture. And yeah, why, so why do you spend less time now than

[00:02:53] you used to? Yeah. Uh, basically for that very reason, because of a cumulative knowledge over the

[00:03:02] years, I don't need to do the, the more intense forms of study that I did in the past. So I got

[00:03:11] a pretty good reservoir that already exists. So I'm going to pull from a lot of that, but then I also,

[00:03:20] I want to stay current. I want to, um, sometimes update myself on, you know, things that I maybe knew

[00:03:29] and taught before, but maybe I haven't thought about it for a long time. So I want to see, you know,

[00:03:36] some get fresh ideas and things like that. So, but I am, uh, pretty consistently, I would say

[00:03:42] eight hours is my preparation time still today. Uh, but sometimes it could be an hour. Uh, sometimes

[00:03:51] it could be 12. Um, but I would say as an average, it's probably more like, like six to eight, you know,

[00:03:58] sitting down focused, putting together my outline, um, reading some commentaries and things like that.

[00:04:10] When, when I was young and starting now, uh, I just thought I needed to know everything that you

[00:04:17] could possibly know about the passage you were teaching. So back in those days, I had probably

[00:04:24] 10 commentaries on my desk that I was going to try to make it through for the teaching that week.

[00:04:30] And it was grueling. It was brutal. A lot of times I would, you know, read endlessly and then

[00:04:38] what the heck could I even read? But I did find that there was, um,

[00:04:46] you know, these sort of key things the Lord was depositing in me that would be with me

[00:04:53] for the long haul there. So I look back on those days and I think, um, I might do it differently now,

[00:05:00] but I, I'm kind of glad that I did it the way I did it. I'm kind of glad that I,

[00:05:04] that I immersed myself so intensely for a good 10, 15 years. Um, so that I'm not having to do that today.

[00:05:16] Yeah. And as we're starting out or younger, there's even, there's more things to even

[00:05:20] learn about the Bible. There always is more to learn. Yeah. But I remember, I think like my second year

[00:05:25] pastoring, I stayed up all night on Saturday because I was reading about Romans chapter five

[00:05:34] and the imputation of Adam's guilds into the human race. Yeah. And I was just kind of learning, like,

[00:05:40] there's more to this than I thought. Yeah. And like, I don't think my first drafts actually

[00:05:46] is going to cut it anymore. And I wasn't up all night writing the new sermon. I was up all night

[00:05:51] reading to be like, what does this actually mean? Yeah. And that's a, again, is that the best thing

[00:05:57] to do? Like reshaping your theology on Saturday nights, but just kind of making sure I was accurate.

[00:06:02] Um, and then again, now I think as after pastoring for like 17, 18 years and being, you know, I think

[00:06:07] I've, I think I, my theology is locked in now, but I was a little bit of a work in progress.

[00:06:12] Yeah, for sure. So let's talk about selecting a passage. Uh, Brian, how do you select a passage

[00:06:19] to preach from? Okay. Let me, let me take that from a few different perspectives. So,

[00:06:28] so right now, for example, we here at Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, we're doing on Sundays, we are doing,

[00:06:38] well, pause on that for a second. I teach, I'm teaching through the Bible, uh, New Testament,

[00:06:44] Gospel of Luke right now, a chapter a week on Sunday night. So that's, I already know when I

[00:06:51] resume next Sunday night, I will be in Luke chapter 12. So that's just kind of a no brainer because I'm

[00:06:57] doing chapter by chapter, right? On Sunday morning, we're currently doing a, the story of series.

[00:07:05] So it's the big story, the big narrative story of scripture from start to finish. And our goal is

[00:07:15] to accomplish this, um, this year. So by the end of 2024, hopefully we will have done sort of the 30,000

[00:07:28] foot look at the entire story of God from creation to day creation. So right now we are in the story.

[00:07:39] So it's the story of series. So right now we're in the story of the people. So right now we're looking

[00:07:45] at the children of Israel having come out of Egypt, um, in, you know, on the way to the promised

[00:07:52] land. And the last two weeks we did the Exodus. Now this week, this Sunday, so my son, Char,

[00:08:01] who we're teaching, he taught, he taught the Exodus the last two weeks. He taught it sort of from the,

[00:08:07] uh, the perspective of redemption from slavery and also redemption for the glory of God.

[00:08:17] So first week was looking out, you know, we, we, we, we have been set free from slavery and we've been

[00:08:23] set free for these particular things. So now the, the plan, so we, we kind of have it mapped out,

[00:08:32] but we adjusted every now and again. So the plan was for me to jump now to the entrance into the

[00:08:41] promised land. And he said to me, dad, you know, we never really, we, we never really touched on the

[00:08:50] sacrificial system in any kind of detail. We never really touched on the priesthood in any kind of

[00:08:55] detail, uh, the feast, things like that. Uh, okay. So we're not going to go across the Jordan at this

[00:09:04] point. We're going to just pause where we're at. And so this Sunday I'm going to preach on,

[00:09:10] uh, the, uh, the tabernacle and the priesthood and the sacrificial system. And so the way we're doing

[00:09:17] it is we're, we're looking at the beginning of all of this, and then we're following the thread

[00:09:24] all the way through the redemptive narrative. So we're going to start with the, the tabernacle

[00:09:31] and the priesthood and all of that. And of course, we're going to end up with, uh, the word became

[00:09:37] flesh and pitched his tent among us. And that Jesus is the great apostle and high priest of our

[00:09:44] confession, you know, so we'll tie, uh, we'll tie that all together. So where normally over many,

[00:09:57] many years I would teach books of the, uh, the new Testament for the most part on Sundays.

[00:10:05] And I would always get a sense from the Lord of where we were going with what particular book.

[00:10:12] So just seemed clear to me, teach Ephesians. Okay. So we're going to teach Ephesians. We're going to

[00:10:19] teach Ephesians in, uh, 30 weeks. We're going to go through Ephesians for 30 weeks. So then,

[00:10:25] you know, I'm going to each week, I'm going to kind of look at where, where we're headed in the text.

[00:10:30] Um, but now that's no longer happening right now. So I'm not sitting around praying, thinking like,

[00:10:40] where are we going with this big picture? We're mapping it out ahead of time, which a lot of people

[00:10:45] do, but I had never really done that. So now we're mapping it out. But what I have to do now

[00:10:51] is I have to get the details of the priesthood and the tabernacle. So this is where I'm having

[00:10:58] to come back and say, okay, Lord, this is, this is our topic. What about this topic? And so there's

[00:11:07] always been for me. So, so what I'm saying is I've always depended on the spirit to lead me.

[00:11:11] And I still am doing that except, except I'm, I'm depending on him to lead me now in this very

[00:11:18] specific, uh, almost topic, right? That I'm addressing that is part of this bigger narrative

[00:11:25] that's already been, uh, sketched out for us. So that's, that's right now. That's what I'm giving

[00:11:30] it as well. Yeah. Which, and then as you're thinking through, this actually leads quite naturally

[00:11:36] towards, I guess, theme, uh, talking about meditation upon the texts. And I would, I,

[00:11:42] I'd love to hear your thoughts on how that works. Maybe even the distinction between an academic study

[00:11:47] and then just enjoying the text as a Christian. And then, yeah. So how do you meditate on a text?

[00:11:54] Yeah. Well, and then this is a little challenging because the, the question even before that is,

[00:11:59] what is the text? Right. So assuming that answer is the answer. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't even

[00:12:04] know what the text is yet. It's Wednesday and I'm going to treat you on Sunday. I don't even know

[00:12:08] what my exact text is going to be. Um, but when I discover what my text is going to be, then yeah.

[00:12:15] So what I would normally, what I will do, let's just say, um, instead of doing what I'm doing right

[00:12:23] now, I'm going through Ephesians. So in Ephesians, I know that next week, this particular section of

[00:12:30] scripture is the section that I'm going to cover. So all week long, before I even sit down and read a

[00:12:36] commentary or put pen to paper, I am mulling over that passage in my mind. It just, in my daily

[00:12:44] activities, at some point it's just stirring around in my mind. And then there will come a point where

[00:12:52] I'm actually going to get more detailed and more specific about getting some thoughts put down and so

[00:12:59] forth. So, um, but meditation to me is not just sitting, it's not just sitting down with my Bible

[00:13:07] open and looking at the passage, but it's more, um, marinating in the passage just throughout the,

[00:13:16] the days leading up, you know, and David, there's always that moment where I'm going to sit down and

[00:13:25] spend 45 minutes an hour. We're just going to be looking at the text itself, just looking at it in

[00:13:30] front of me, just reading it over again. And just in some cases being refreshed and other cases seeing

[00:13:36] like, you know, sometimes you kind of have an idea of what the text is about and then you read it and

[00:13:43] go, Oh, I, I didn't see that part of it before, you know? So you're getting, getting some new insights.

[00:13:47] Yeah. He said like marinating, what does, what does that mean? Yeah. Marinating. I mean, like,

[00:13:54] you know, like you're sticking your brain into the text and just letting your brain absorb as much

[00:14:02] of the text as you can. And because what I really want to do too, as part of preaching,

[00:14:09] if you really have a handle on your text, when you're preaching, it really liberates you in your

[00:14:15] preaching. If you're kind of, you know, even in your own mind, if you're sort of stumbling through

[00:14:20] your text, like, Oh wait, what does that say? You know, it, it, it binds you up a bit. So I want to

[00:14:27] be able to just freely reference the text in, in the course of the teaching without having to go,

[00:14:36] Oh wait, what is it? What does that say? You know? Yeah. So I want to text it, just be in me.

[00:14:41] So it's naturally flowing from me during the course of preaching.

[00:14:46] Yeah. And as, as Joe was talking about, me mowing the grass and thinking about it. Yeah.

[00:14:54] Yeah, exactly. That sort of thing. Driving to work, going on a jog, you know, whatever you're doing. I

[00:15:01] mean, um, I, I run a lot, jog a lot. And that's a lot of times that there's a specific day where I'm

[00:15:11] going to go, I'm going to leave my phone in the car. I'm not going to listen to a podcast. I am just

[00:15:17] going to think about the passage for my hour. And that is something I think maybe as, as it's been

[00:15:25] highlighted, we were in quite a distracted age. And if you were not making intentional motives to

[00:15:31] minimize distraction, it's not going to happen. Yeah. And I am distracted just like everybody is.

[00:15:36] Yeah. So I'm, I'm finding you at the times when I'm, you know, working on my text and then, um,

[00:15:43] another text comes and it's on my phone and, and, you know, and I keep thinking, you know,

[00:15:50] I should just turn my phone off. Why, why do I even torture myself with this? Because I'll be right

[00:15:55] in the middle of a thought and then I'm like, Oh wait, what does that say? You know? So these are

[00:15:59] things I'm still trying to treat how to navigate. Yeah. Yeah. And there's, um, for myself, I do

[00:16:06] something I do as part of like the meditation process is I, I ride out by hand and I've, you

[00:16:13] know, I've done reading too about the, again, we're in such a technologically, so much of our

[00:16:18] fingertips literally and figuratively, but, um, riding out passage by hand, like creates more like

[00:16:26] neural connections. There's been studies about like, uh, classroom lectures when there's students

[00:16:31] that are taking notes. Yeah. Um, typing their notes are more accurate because they're able to

[00:16:36] type faster. Yeah. But even like writing out by hand, it causes the brain to work in a different

[00:16:41] way. It's a kinetic way that gets it deeper into their texts. So into their brain rather. So I try

[00:16:46] to write it out as part of the meditation process. Yeah. And then even that like, like ancient scribes,

[00:16:51] you know, they check the Bible, they'd write it. They check the Bible, they'd write it. And I find

[00:16:55] that even helps internalize it. I started at the first of the year, I, I decided to go back, um,

[00:17:03] through all of the verses I've memorized and write them out. So each day I go to a passage that I know

[00:17:13] by memory and I write it out. And that's exactly what I'm seeking to do. And just have that kind of

[00:17:21] connection with it there. Even when I am in sermon prep, I will handwrite my first outline rather than

[00:17:31] type my first outline. Most of the time, I'll type it, but most of the time I will just sit with my

[00:17:37] pencil and my, um, you know, whatever I'm using and, and I'll just, you know, scribble out my

[00:17:46] kind of general introduction, some points, get some thoughts, maybe, um, an illustration or a story or

[00:17:54] something that'll come to mind. I'll just jot it on the side. So this is going to go in when I

[00:17:58] actually start to, you know, put together in a word document, this is, this is kind of what I'm

[00:18:03] going to start with. All right. So we're kind of going on this journey where I called title,

[00:18:07] this kind of like from the page, from the text to the page. So, you know, so that we think about

[00:18:16] the text and then you even get mentioned kind of organizing it into a little bit of an outline.

[00:18:20] Um, what's an outline and why do these gentlemen need outlines? Well, outlines will greatly help you

[00:18:32] from getting lost in, um, what you're wanting to say, you know? So an outline is basically, um,

[00:18:40] my outlines are all quite simple. Um, I have an introduction, which is basically giving you kind

[00:18:50] of a preview of what we're going to be doing, um, in this text. And then once I finish my introduction,

[00:18:58] then it's generally, I'm just moving to points. So I have point, the first point, I use Roman numerals

[00:19:05] for some reason, I guess, could, you know, feel for an agent. I started back in the old days when

[00:19:10] they, when they did that. Um, so I use, you know, so, so Roman numeral number one is my heading.

[00:19:17] And then I might have A, B, C, D as, you know, sub topics underneath that heading. And then I move to,

[00:19:27] um, Roman numeral number two, and I might have A and B, and then I might have an illustration.

[00:19:33] I might have a quote or something like that. And I worked my way down through, for me, normally,

[00:19:39] it's probably like three to five coins. And then, um, bringing everything together in a conclusion.

[00:19:47] Um, so again, my, we, we post our notes online now. So you can actually go to, um, cccm.com and you

[00:19:59] can look at our notes and you can, you can look at the different ways that we do notes. So my notes

[00:20:05] tonight, I'm going to preach from six pages of notes. My son never has less than probably 12 to 15

[00:20:18] pages of notes. And he, his notes are laid out in a bit more of a transcript sort of a way. So he's,

[00:20:29] he's kind of transcripting, you know, he's writing out, um, like word for word things that he's going

[00:20:35] to say. I will do that a little bit, but I'll do it with much briefer sections, you know, so a small

[00:20:41] paragraph, I'll write out what I'm going to say, but there's a lot of space in my notes for me to just

[00:20:50] go with, you know, just a more drawing more on my accumulative knowledge rather than being stuck in,

[00:21:00] in, you know, trying to, you know, read through a text at that point. So it's, it's a different style.

[00:21:06] It's not one's better, one's worse. It's just, you know, people do things certain ways. I mean,

[00:21:12] lots of people joke about me, you know, Hey Brian, let's see your notes. Oh, if you don't have any,

[00:21:18] right. Or, uh, Oh yeah. Oh, here they are. There here's a little tiny post-it note with three

[00:21:25] squiggles on it, you know? And, uh, I love that because Spurgeon did that too. So now I, I like

[00:21:30] that comparison. Well, I have seen a lot of charge notes. We've collaborated in the past and then I've

[00:21:39] seen yours as well. I can, I can do that. My notes used to look a lot like jars and they're moving

[00:21:43] more towards you. So I'm really proud. Yeah. So I found that oftentimes, yeah, I would sit,

[00:21:51] I'd think, I'd pray, I would meditate and then I would just open up door dock and then just type

[00:21:58] every thought that I had, you know, and then just like check the Bible, right. Check the Bible,

[00:22:02] right. You know, and then just like, and, um, I found the sermons were quite long and then also

[00:22:08] kind of a little, a little rambly because it was like a written record of the thoughts that I had

[00:22:14] about the Bible passage and it's just recorded there. And then I would read it out and then,

[00:22:18] and then preach it. Yeah. Learning about the importance of outlining is really, A, it's

[00:22:23] healthy with my time management and, um, because once you kind of understand the passage, you kind of

[00:22:28] figure out what you want to say. And then you'd think, well, there's really these sections. And then

[00:22:33] to organize it, like, I want to talk about the righteousness of God that, but yeah, there's

[00:22:39] examples that we can have. It was just like, what's the main idea? What's the point? And,

[00:22:43] and like you have these, these buckets and you fill in these buckets and that actually is really

[00:22:48] quite helpful. I would say who could explain this much better than I could is my friend and colleague,

[00:22:53] Nick P. He did an episode on the Expositors Collective podcast called Start with a Destination

[00:22:59] in Mind. I thought it was just like an excellent 25 minute presentation about outlines, how they work

[00:23:06] and how it's going to help you to save time, to stay on point, to be more punctual. And it really

[00:23:12] is a helpful thing that goes kind of beyond the remit of what we're doing right now. But I recommend

[00:23:16] Nick Cady start with a destination in mind. Yeah. And, um, I don't, I don't know if I listened to that,

[00:23:23] but you've been in the room as he's in it a many times. Yeah. And, um, so I said, you know,

[00:23:32] you start off with an introduction, you know, like if you're teaching through a book, then the,

[00:23:36] the initial part of your introduction is going to sort of be a reminder of where you've been already.

[00:23:41] So, Hey, you know, last week we talked about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. If you're not doing it

[00:23:46] like that, then you're going to jump in with your introduction. And like I said, you're going to

[00:23:51] basically explain through your introduction, where you're headed, what your, what your aim is.

[00:23:58] But I take for years and years and years, I've done this and I I'm actually not doing it as much

[00:24:05] right now as I normally would, but the title is the key. So I want to summarize in a title,

[00:24:13] everything, this is what you're going to, you can read that title and go, I know what this sermon

[00:24:18] is going to be about. So for me, I spent a lot of time over the years, just trying to come up,

[00:24:24] not really catchy title necessarily, but just a descriptive title. This is, this is what this

[00:24:29] message is about. And sometimes, um, that's my starting point. I'll think and think and think

[00:24:35] and think and think and think and this is a title. So this is where I'm going. Other times I will roll

[00:24:39] all the way through and then I'll think back to where, okay, now how do I want to title this?

[00:24:45] But the title is going to tell you what you're about to hear.

[00:24:51] So can you do that?

[00:24:52] No, I don't. I disagree. I disagree.

[00:24:55] Yeah. Why?

[00:24:56] I, I, I, I, you talked about that the first, the introduction is going to kind of explain

[00:25:01] where we are and how we've read it in the Bible. I believe that should be in the sermon,

[00:25:07] but I think that that first two moments, that first minute of a sermon is really important and it's

[00:25:14] important to grab the attention in the words of Don Sanukian to establish relevance and straight away.

[00:25:21] And then explain that context as you go. So I've tried really hard to walk up into the pulpit

[00:25:27] and the first thing that I say, it's going to grab attention and it's going to be like important to say our exhausted emptiness is met by Christ's generous abundance.

[00:25:42] And then, okay, and now we're going to look at the fishing trip of the disciples and how they toiled all night, found nothing,

[00:25:49] but then Jesus shows up and establish that relevance.

[00:25:53] So is your title going to be our exhausted, whatever?

[00:25:56] That was going to be like John chapter 24.

[00:25:59] Yeah, there is no John 24.

[00:26:03] The titles also work well, depending if we, maybe the narratives, if it's catching, like you say, the title,

[00:26:13] that can be part of the main idea for the whole text, the whole sermon.

[00:26:17] Yeah.

[00:26:17] So even a way, it works with the message.

[00:26:20] Yeah, and I think that's great.

[00:26:28] I do that once in a while, but I don't do it consistently.

[00:26:34] And I used to be much more like, you know, I kind of cut my teeth on Martin Lloyd-Jones.

[00:26:39] And so Lloyd-Jones would always start every sermon with a recap of what he had previously said.

[00:26:45] Yeah.

[00:26:45] So there's no big like, hey, here we go.

[00:26:48] Yeah.

[00:26:48] Lloyd-Jones, they used to say about Lloyd-Jones is he was like a jetliner taking off.

[00:26:55] And he would taxi down the runway for quite a bit of time.

[00:26:59] And you wonder, is this thing ever going to lift off?

[00:27:02] But once it lifted off, then it began to soar.

[00:27:05] And so I have been likened to Lloyd-Jones on occasion.

[00:27:11] Of which I'm quite in front of.

[00:27:13] Yeah.

[00:27:14] Yeah.

[00:27:15] And how did Martin Lloyd-Jones start each sermon?

[00:27:17] And what accent did he have?

[00:27:20] He started each sermon with, if I haven't done it for a while, it was the exact words.

[00:27:25] The words to which I would like to draw your attention this morning.

[00:27:29] I've sounded in John's Gospel, chapter three.

[00:27:32] And kind of making a Liverpool in a Welsh accent there, but it's something like that.

[00:27:36] The words to which I would like to draw your attention.

[00:27:39] He felt like he did part of a sermon, the previous sermon, the Christian, it was part of a benignological.

[00:27:46] Yeah.

[00:27:47] That's why he would go over like 20 minutes of the previous sermon.

[00:27:50] Yeah.

[00:27:50] Because he felt that people were retained more.

[00:27:52] Then he would start to bring this sermon.

[00:27:54] Yeah.

[00:27:54] Yeah.

[00:27:55] And that, you know, I think probably was fine when you're sitting there listening.

[00:28:00] But when you're reading this book, you're like, oh gosh darn, I read all of this already.

[00:28:04] Yeah.

[00:28:05] Keep getting it.

[00:28:05] Now, why do you think we can no longer do that?

[00:28:08] I've been convinced by Jonathan Pennington.

[00:28:11] He has two different essays.

[00:28:14] The first one is called the first minute of your sermon.

[00:28:18] And then the last minute of your sermon.

[00:28:20] He says those two minutes are the most important parts.

[00:28:23] And so I can respectfully disagree.

[00:28:25] So yeah, he said, yeah, the first minute.

[00:28:27] And then maybe this is because we live in a different time and era than Martin Lloyd-Jones perhaps.

[00:28:32] He says that the first, even the first couple seconds of a YouTube clip, of everything people watch online is designed to grab your attention in the first minute.

[00:28:44] And I mean, for better or for worse, maybe there's not the patience for these slow burning things.

[00:28:52] So he said that the first minute is really important.

[00:28:55] And he says that when you get the first minute, it should not necessarily be, hey, wasn't that worship great?

[00:29:05] And I do want to say thank you so much for the worship team.

[00:29:07] And then the setup team did a great job today.

[00:29:11] And boy, isn't the weather hot.

[00:29:13] OK, please turn your Bibles to this.

[00:29:15] He's like, just get up there and start.

[00:29:19] Yeah, and I mean, but I think that that is an opinion.

[00:29:23] And I think for some people it resonates.

[00:29:26] Yes.

[00:29:26] And I think for other people it's.

[00:29:28] Because in the end, I don't necessarily think that matters.

[00:29:32] Because here's what happens.

[00:29:33] In the course of a sermon, the Holy Spirit at certain points is doing something so radical that if you were sound asleep, all of a sudden you're wide awake sitting on the edge of your chair.

[00:29:45] Yeah.

[00:29:45] So I would and I'm not saying don't do it.

[00:29:48] I'm just saying I wouldn't put I wouldn't put the like it.

[00:29:52] This is the most important.

[00:29:53] The first minute and the last minute are the most important.

[00:29:55] I think there's plenty of minutes in the middle that could be way more important.

[00:29:58] There are.

[00:29:59] I'm going to quote an authority.

[00:30:00] My wife.

[00:30:01] She says.

[00:30:04] The amount of times that I've just been like, you know, if I went to talk and she wasn't even there, you know, and then I come back and how was it?

[00:30:11] You know, I'm like, oh, this is awful.

[00:30:13] You know, oh, this big mess.

[00:30:15] And then she'd say, well, did it end well?

[00:30:17] Yeah, I guess it ended well.

[00:30:18] And she's like, that's all people remember.

[00:30:20] It's like if it kind of ended nice and tidy.

[00:30:22] And that's that's been a comfort to me.

[00:30:24] And then, you know, the great thing, too.

[00:30:26] And, you know, you guys, I would say this.

[00:30:28] It never underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit to work because you'll find I mean, this is something that blows my mind.

[00:30:39] I will have people come up to me who literally will say to me 30 years ago, you said this.

[00:30:44] It's like what?

[00:30:46] I don't know what I said 30 minutes ago.

[00:30:48] I could never remember what I said 30 years ago.

[00:30:51] But it's something that the Spirit of God took and impressed so deeply in them that it still resonates in their mind, though.

[00:31:01] Yeah.

[00:31:01] And you've said things in a sermon, yeah, January of like 2004 that encouraged me and my wife so much.

[00:31:11] Yeah.

[00:31:12] And I think it might have even been in the middle.

[00:31:15] I like your workshop.

[00:31:16] We learned the importance I want to know from you guys just to point to knowing your audience and who you're speaking to.

[00:31:24] So you may have a humble believer in faith in Christ.

[00:31:27] And then you may have them mature, but having something for both of them.

[00:31:30] I don't think it's a bad idea, but I...

[00:31:39] Brian Chappell.

[00:31:41] Yes.

[00:31:41] In his book, he talks a lot about that whole idea.

[00:31:45] And a lot of guys have talked about like, you know, hey, I want to know the single mom and I want to know the person who's kind of impoverished over here, you know.

[00:31:55] Okay, I'm not saying that would be a bad thing, but guess what?

[00:32:00] The Holy Spirit already knows them.

[00:32:02] And he knows way more about them than you do.

[00:32:05] And so this is the amazing thing.

[00:32:09] I'll give you guys one quick example.

[00:32:10] Years ago, I went to London and I was preaching at a church of some friends of mine.

[00:32:15] And there's about 200 people in the church.

[00:32:17] And I'm like, you know, it's one of those mornings.

[00:32:19] What am I preaching?

[00:32:20] I'm all in a preaching.

[00:32:21] And, you know, trying to figure out what I'm going to preach.

[00:32:23] And I come.

[00:32:24] And these guys are friends of mine.

[00:32:25] So they expect me to say, I don't know what I'm preaching yet.

[00:32:29] And it's five minutes before the message.

[00:32:33] But so anyway, you know, time comes.

[00:32:35] I get up.

[00:32:37] In the last few minutes, the Lord puts this on my heart.

[00:32:41] And, you know, like I said, I've been doing this long enough.

[00:32:43] I have outlines in my brain.

[00:32:44] So I don't need to have it on a piece of paper.

[00:32:46] But anyway, I gave this message.

[00:32:49] And at the end of the message, they all came together, three guys who passed in the church.

[00:32:53] They said, you addressed all of the major issues that are going on in our church right now without

[00:32:59] knowing a single thing about any of them.

[00:33:01] And I said, well, that's the beauty of the work of the Holy Spirit.

[00:33:05] You know, that's what we're doing.

[00:33:08] We are the oracles of God.

[00:33:11] But I'm not saying don't know that other stuff.

[00:33:14] But if you don't know it, remember God knows it.

[00:33:18] Ryan, you're such a spirit-filled contrarian.

[00:33:23] I love that about you.

[00:33:25] And yeah, you're right.

[00:33:26] You're right.

[00:33:28] All right.

[00:33:29] What about commentaries?

[00:33:31] From the Holy Spirit to commentaries?

[00:33:33] Not that they're opposed.

[00:33:35] But yeah, what's a wise, what's a spirit-filled way to use a commentary?

[00:33:39] Why?

[00:33:40] Commentaries are fantastic.

[00:33:41] And I think they're, you know, really important in the life of a preacher and a pastor.

[00:33:49] What I have done over the years now is where, like I said earlier, I would, if I was going

[00:33:56] to study a book, I would have 10 commentaries.

[00:33:59] Yeah.

[00:33:59] And I would try to make my way through all of them.

[00:34:01] And it was frustrating because it was challenging.

[00:34:06] And I did that for a number of years.

[00:34:08] Now what I do is I choose, I'll just give you Luke, because Luke is, I'm consistently going through Luke, right?

[00:34:17] I have two commentaries on my desk for Luke.

[00:34:22] And I sporadically use both of them.

[00:34:26] But I also have Craig Keener's New Testament background book.

[00:34:32] So I'm, you know, because I'm teaching through Luke.

[00:34:35] So, you know, a lot of background stuff there.

[00:34:37] So I want to make sure I'm clear on the background.

[00:34:40] And then I'm just one commentary.

[00:34:43] N.T. Wright is amazing.

[00:34:45] And he's the great storyteller.

[00:34:47] And he's the great guy who, you know, he just connects all this stuff beautifully.

[00:34:51] But I'm not N.T. Wright, so I can't.

[00:34:53] But I can glean a few things from what he does.

[00:34:56] And then I've got a more exegetical kind of a commentary that I use, which is kind of dry and boring.

[00:35:01] But it helps you sometimes.

[00:35:04] And then I, that's kind of it for me these days.

[00:35:08] So then I'm just depending more on prayer, my meditation on the text and my, you know, just kind of life experience.

[00:35:18] Okay.

[00:35:20] And I would just add to that, that Expositors Collective podcast, not the one that came out yesterday, but the one that came out before.

[00:35:28] So like last week's is an episode called, I think it's called like Preaching Matthew, Using Commentary as Well and Something Else.

[00:35:36] And so in the middle section of that, there's a good conversation about how do you use commentaries well.

[00:35:43] It's, yeah, they're like conversation partners.

[00:35:47] And they're not there just to tell you what you're saying.

[00:35:50] They're there for you to learn from, engage with, even maybe if you have the time to read multiple ones to see, well, how do they, these different ideas interact with one another?

[00:35:59] Yeah.

[00:36:00] Yeah.

[00:36:00] And I think commentaries are one tool.

[00:36:03] Yeah.

[00:36:04] I think there's other things too that are just, I'm finding at this stage for me that commentaries are probably, I'm least interested in commentaries right now.

[00:36:14] Okay.

[00:36:14] Why?

[00:36:15] Why?

[00:36:16] Because I just feel, I mean, quite honestly, I just feel like, oh yeah, I'm just reading them like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[00:36:24] I could read this, you know, right?

[00:36:27] Everybody's saying the same thing, you know, and I read it all.

[00:36:30] So I, these days I'm more interested in kind of cultural background stuff, historical stuff.

[00:36:38] I want to, I want to kind of tie it all together and make it, I want the text to come to life to people.

[00:36:44] So I'm looking for more stuff to, to do, that's going to help me do that versus somebody's thought on it.

[00:36:51] But then, you know, I mean, sometimes somebody's one sentence is like, oh my gosh, that was the thing that brought the pieces together that I was really looking for.

[00:37:01] So, yeah, I mean, you know, and, and I think I go through seasons too.

[00:37:06] I mean, you know, I've talked through seasons of very much loving the commentary and then I've gone through seasons like, I don't know if there's nothing I'm really excited about.

[00:37:15] All right.

[00:37:16] What about you?

[00:37:16] Spirit-filled contrarian.

[00:37:18] What about you?

[00:37:18] Oh, I, I always read, yeah, four or five.

[00:37:20] Yeah.

[00:37:21] So not eight or nine.

[00:37:22] Yeah.

[00:37:22] But not one or two.

[00:37:23] Yeah.

[00:37:24] And I have my favorite dice, you know.

[00:37:26] So if John Stott's written on it, I'm going to read Stott just because I like Stott.

[00:37:29] And I think he's always got good stuff.

[00:37:30] So, but he doesn't have something on everything.

[00:37:33] Yeah.

[00:37:34] Well, I organize that reading like in order.

[00:37:36] So I start with the academic and then move towards the devotion.

[00:37:41] Yeah.

[00:37:41] And, and there's some commentaries and those commentaries, they're just printed sermons.

[00:37:46] Yes.

[00:37:46] I think like the preach the word series is just essentially it's commentary.

[00:37:50] It's sermons written out.

[00:37:51] Yeah.

[00:37:51] And so I save those until the end.

[00:37:54] Yeah.

[00:37:54] And I've had incredible insights when you find that one sentence in a really boring academic.

[00:38:00] Yes.

[00:38:00] Thing.

[00:38:01] Absolutely.

[00:38:01] Where there's like, I, one of the most, last night was a very worshipful night.

[00:38:07] Another worshipful time in my life was like on a Wednesday in my office reading a Peter O'Brien commentary on Hebrews.

[00:38:15] When he just like convinced me, showed me something in the passage.

[00:38:20] And I just remember just like praising the Lord's like alone in my office because of a comment, like a commentary showed me something about Jesus.

[00:38:27] Yeah.

[00:38:27] That prompted me to worship.

[00:38:28] Yeah.

[00:38:29] Um, but that doesn't happen every week.

[00:38:31] Yeah.

[00:38:31] Sometimes it's just like, yeah.

[00:38:33] Just trudging through it.

[00:38:35] And I'm more inclined.

[00:38:36] Do you guys know the difference between an exegetical commentary and like a devotional commentary?

[00:38:42] Right.

[00:38:42] See, what if someone doesn't?

[00:38:44] Okay.

[00:38:45] So an exegetical commentary is something that's going to, it's, it's going to take it just a kind of almost a technical look at the text itself.

[00:38:53] It's probably going to have, you know, breakdown of Greek words or for sentences or something like that.

[00:39:00] And even if you don't read Greek, it's okay.

[00:39:03] You know, you can make your way through it.

[00:39:04] Um, it's, it's, it's more, um, mentally in or intellectually informative than it is like moving your heart to some deep, you know, devotional thing where devotional commentary is like Mike saying it's like a sermon or a Bible study where there's like, oh, there's an amazing, oh, here's an illustration.

[00:39:24] Here's a story or here's a something.

[00:39:26] So I have leaned heavily over the years on the exegetical and I still am drawn more toward the exegetical because I feel like I want to get the devotional more from my own life experience that are my other reading and things like that, you know?

[00:39:43] So, so when I was young, most of the commentaries that we were recommended were devotional types of commentaries.

[00:39:52] And, you know, and you just found like, okay, there's a lot of good devotional thoughts here.

[00:39:56] But sometimes it was hard to, to exegete the text because you're just getting stories and anecdotes and things like that.

[00:40:04] To filter, yeah, to go back to what you were saying a few minutes ago about meditating on texts.

[00:40:07] Yeah.

[00:40:08] Like our, our confidence, even in the pulpit or whatever context that we're teaching.

[00:40:13] When we really know the text really, really well, that's really, yeah.

[00:40:16] Versus, well, I read this really fascinating story about the Roman Empire.

[00:40:20] And how this connects, you know?

[00:40:22] Yeah.

[00:40:22] So.

[00:40:22] And, and one other thing that I'll just say is have a teaching, a teaching Bible, a text you prefer to teach, to be your foundational text to teach from.

[00:40:35] But read as many versions as you can.

[00:40:38] So nowadays I read NLT, ESV, NET, NIV, NKJV.

[00:40:47] I read all of them when I have a passage.

[00:40:50] So I'm reading every one of them.

[00:40:53] And a lot of times I'm, I'm looking at my primary text, but I'm going, okay, wait a second.

[00:40:58] I wonder what that says in the NET.

[00:41:01] So I'm going over to the NET and look at it there.

[00:41:04] So, all right, let's move on to talk about teaching, preaching, the gospel from every passage.

[00:41:10] That's something that one of you mentioned, Joe mentions.

[00:41:14] What are your, how do you, so when you are going to talk about the priesthood on Sunday and the sacrifices.

[00:41:21] Yeah.

[00:41:22] Is that going to be a historic lecture about what the people of God used to do back then exclusively?

[00:41:28] Or are you going to show the members of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, are you going to show them the good news of the gospel through that passage?

[00:41:39] Well, what do you think?

[00:41:40] I'm kidding.

[00:41:41] I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm lobbying you a softball, right?

[00:41:45] We're just going to talk about the historical stuff and then we're going to move on.

[00:41:48] Yeah.

[00:41:48] No, so we started something on Sundays a year or so ago where we started having communion every Sunday.

[00:41:59] And communion every Sunday has been a fantastic way to bring everything ultimately around to the frost and to what Jesus has done for us.

[00:42:11] So, so we're always moving toward that moment.

[00:42:16] And we're moving toward the capstone of everything we're doing is the table is here before us.

[00:42:23] And so everything that we've said is all predicated on this right here.

[00:42:27] This is why we say and do everything because of what Jesus did.

[00:42:33] So that has really helped us to not, you know, sometimes you're kind of trying to figure out now, how do I move this into, you know, without just completely going off on another track?

[00:42:48] How do I move this into a gospel, a gospel thing?

[00:42:52] And so this has helped us tremendously to do it.

[00:42:56] And so you and I have a little bit of a different perspective on like the, again, the, the, but we'd love us on the same.

[00:43:05] This is the beauty.

[00:43:06] Yeah.

[00:43:07] Right.

[00:43:07] On the, you know, Christ in every passage sort of a thing, you know.

[00:43:12] So somebody who I was greatly influential under and probably most of our lives and even thinking about that was Tim Kellogg.

[00:43:21] Yeah.

[00:43:21] Right.

[00:43:21] That's right.

[00:43:23] And I got a Tim quote here that I think this to me is a better way to see it than just the trying to find Christ in every passage.

[00:43:33] Cause I don't even think that's possible.

[00:43:35] Um, but here's what Tim said.

[00:43:37] And this is what I, this is what I think the essence of it is.

[00:43:39] So Tim said this, he said, every time you expound a Bible text, you are not finished unless you demonstrate how it shows us that we cannot save ourselves and that only Jesus can.

[00:43:55] And I think that's really the essence of the gospel in every passage, you know, because the other alternative becomes the moralism.

[00:44:06] So you're, it's, it's really either you're preaching moralism or you're preaching the gospel.

[00:44:10] So that's, I'm not going to, you know, necessarily find Christ in every single passage, but I am always going to make my way back to why we need Jesus because even this is impossible for us as sinners.

[00:44:27] Yeah.

[00:44:27] Do you agree?

[00:44:28] I agree.

[00:44:29] We agree.

[00:44:30] I agree.

[00:44:32] Finally, for the full of our friends.

[00:44:33] Yeah.

[00:44:34] There's, yeah.

[00:44:35] And I think even calling it like finding Christ in every passage is almost a bit of a straw man.

[00:44:43] Like it's not, it's not like when you preach.

[00:44:45] But some people say that.

[00:44:46] Yes.

[00:44:47] I think, I think that's a sloppy way of saying it.

[00:44:48] Yeah.

[00:44:50] Yeah.

[00:44:50] Oh, like, oops.

[00:44:52] Something.

[00:44:53] Uh, fruits.

[00:44:54] Yeah.

[00:44:54] So I think that, yeah, there is definitely preaching the gospel from every passage.

[00:44:59] And then the gospel is, the gospel is like the loving God sees people in need and has provided a way of rescue for us in our need.

[00:45:08] And that's going to show itself as you talk about the sacrificial system on Sunday.

[00:45:12] And the priesthood as easily.

[00:45:14] And, you know, and everything else and the crossing of the Red Sea and the entrance of the Holy Land, all of these things, they all have to do with a loving God, a needy people and God providing for them.

[00:45:24] Yeah.

[00:45:25] And so we, it's always just, yeah, it's just that next step.

[00:45:29] So it's still in the, for us, the obvious connection.

[00:45:32] But for our people, whether we know them or not, we do want to communicate.

[00:45:38] And God did not just love those Israelites in their need.

[00:45:42] He loves you and yours.

[00:45:44] And here's what he's provided for us.

[00:45:45] Yeah.

[00:45:45] Yeah.

[00:45:45] Or even like, you know, the epistle of James, for example, you know, you're, you've, you're reading through James.

[00:45:50] Everybody knows that James is, you know, it, it's, it's a bit of an elaboration of the Sermon on the Mount.

[00:45:57] The Sermon on the Mount isn't atonement centric.

[00:46:02] Sure.

[00:46:02] You know?

[00:46:04] So when you're going through James, it's like, okay, well, how do, you know, how am I taking these exhortations in James and bringing the gospel out of them?

[00:46:13] And I think sometimes you just have to do the exhortation.

[00:46:18] And then in the end, it's just, but you have to remember that this is why we do this.

[00:46:23] Who does this help?

[00:46:24] Do this.

[00:46:25] Yeah.

[00:46:25] So much more could be said on the Fathers Collective podcast.

[00:46:29] There's me giving a longer version of, of this refuting all of Brian's attacks.

[00:46:37] Yeah.

[00:46:38] Yeah.

[00:46:39] More could be said.

[00:46:40] Let's talk about involving other voices.

[00:46:42] So we talked about sermon prep and, and, and I said specifically butts and seats, like how long are you in the desk?

[00:46:50] But I think one of you highlighted that like sermon prep involves much more than that.

[00:46:56] Brian, what are the ways that you involve other people in your prep?

[00:47:01] Well, the other people I involve are dead and I just draw from their writings.

[00:47:06] No, I'm not a big involved other people.

[00:47:09] Okay.

[00:47:10] Yeah.

[00:47:10] And I, I like the idea, but I just, for me, it's an old dog matrix.

[00:47:16] I can't do that, you know?

[00:47:18] And I mean, I know you guys, I know you do it.

[00:47:21] I know.

[00:47:21] I mean, we do it a little bit like, like, for example, Char will send out his sermon early in the week and then we will all go over it.

[00:47:29] And then, you know, we'll give some feedback.

[00:47:31] Like, you know, generally I'm his dad.

[00:47:33] So I'm always like, hey, you know, he'd say this and shouldn't say that kind of stuff.

[00:47:38] But for my sermon, I kind of just, I've done it solo for so long.

[00:47:45] It's hard for me to think of, like, incorporating somebody else into it.

[00:47:49] Okay.

[00:47:51] Great.

[00:47:51] And it works for you.

[00:47:52] It does.

[00:47:53] Yeah.

[00:47:53] And I know you have a different thing.

[00:47:55] And I think that's great.

[00:47:57] Yeah.

[00:47:57] I'm glad you can do it.

[00:47:58] So similar to Char, yeah, I send out my notes to the elders of the church, the trustees, women's ministry director, and then a few other, like, even just trusted voices.

[00:48:09] It's not, I don't send it to everybody in advance because then why would they cut on Sunday?

[00:48:14] But I think I have a group of, like, 10 people and it's like a Google Doc.

[00:48:19] And they're not invited to change it.

[00:48:22] They're invited to make suggestions or to even say, you know, like, for me as a woman, when you say this, like, I wonder, here's a thought that I have.

[00:48:30] And that's worth knowing how it's going to be, like, heard or maybe there's a word of explanation.

[00:48:39] It's something obvious to me.

[00:48:41] It doesn't mean it is obvious to everybody else.

[00:48:43] And it's a helpful process that I enjoy doing.

[00:48:45] Some people like it.

[00:48:46] Some people don't.

[00:48:48] Or it's just a good thing to just, like, talk to people, ask people questions.

[00:48:52] Like, it's really good to learn from the dead authors.

[00:48:55] It's good to ask people, like, hey, when we talk about, like, sacrifice, what's the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear the word sacrifice?

[00:49:03] And then maybe someone will say, well, you know, it was Memorial Day recently.

[00:49:06] And I think about the sacrifice of those soldiers.

[00:49:09] And, like, whether you then use that or not, it's just a way of just piling the puns.

[00:49:14] Another way that I involve other voices is that sometimes, like, we have a Wednesday night prayer meeting.

[00:49:21] And if I'm preaching on the, you know, actually we did this recently.

[00:49:26] I was preaching on, like, Matthew chapter 6.

[00:49:29] And so at the prayer meeting, leading up to it, I just said, guys, let's just kind of use this section as kind of a model for our prayers.

[00:49:36] And we prayed together, like, using different, like, highlights from Matthew 6, the dead of died, our prayers.

[00:49:43] I didn't quote anybody in the sermon.

[00:49:45] Well, as Sister Susan was praying just last night, you know.

[00:49:48] But it was a good way to just, like, I'm not there as, like, the teacher of these people.

[00:49:54] I'm there as, like, a member of this community.

[00:49:57] And we need to hear the words of Jesus.

[00:50:00] And, like, processing it together in prayer is something that, like, really helps me.

[00:50:05] And also, want to talk about ChatGPT?

[00:50:09] Sometimes I use ChatGPT.

[00:50:11] Anyone else use ChatGPT?

[00:50:13] Yeah?

[00:50:14] I think that there is irresponsible, unethical, wicked ways to use ChatGPT in sermon preparation.

[00:50:25] Write me a sermon on this passage.

[00:50:27] And then it goes.

[00:50:28] What I've been doing lately is I have been on, like, when my sermon is basically done, I copy and paste it and drop it in to ChatGPT and say,

[00:50:39] I'm a Christian pastor preaching this sermon.

[00:50:41] Could you read this and have a conversation with me about it?

[00:50:44] Really?

[00:50:45] Yeah.

[00:50:46] And then it, like, and then it goes.

[00:50:48] And then it kind of, like, summarize it.

[00:50:50] And then I could say, like, can you please summarize my sermon in a sentence?

[00:50:54] And then it will do that.

[00:50:55] Could you summarize it in a paragraph?

[00:50:57] And then I could even say, are there any logical fallacies that you see in here?

[00:51:02] And then it could say, oh, well, you know, this is kind of the straw man argument or you made this assertion without proving it.

[00:51:09] And essentially it's kind of like what I, yeah, it's a really great tool that can be used wrongly, but also I think can be something that's useful.

[00:51:20] But you guys, I'm making you guys nervous.

[00:51:22] Yeah.

[00:51:22] What do you think?

[00:51:22] No, no, I just look for explanations.

[00:51:23] Yeah.

[00:51:24] May I?

[00:51:24] I have stuff or is there a real person behind that?

[00:51:26] It's a, oh, oh, sorry.

[00:51:29] Yeah.

[00:51:29] May I chat to me visa?

[00:51:30] Yeah.

[00:51:31] Yeah.

[00:51:32] Yeah.

[00:51:32] Okay.

[00:51:33] But, and that's what makes it like, and I never heard like, I use it for research, like, hey, tell me how many times that board is mentioning it.

[00:51:40] And based on whatever.

[00:51:42] Mike, you do that once you're done with your manuscript, right?

[00:51:45] Yes.

[00:51:46] Yeah.

[00:51:46] So when I'm done, yeah.

[00:51:47] So, yeah.

[00:51:49] ChatGPT is like the most popular free AI that's available.

[00:51:56] And version 4.0 just came out, which is a lot smarter than 3.5, which is why, so it can handle like four pages.

[00:52:06] You can just drop it to four pages of stuff and then say, read through this, and then you can ask Ed questions.

[00:52:12] And it's, for me, it's kind of, because I love talking about this stuff with people.

[00:52:17] And I care more about it than anyone else.

[00:52:19] And so even if I send my Word document out, or the Google Doc to like, you know, 10 leaders within the church, I get one sentence back from like one of them.

[00:52:29] Turns out they don't care nearly as much, you know?

[00:52:34] And, but I have a machine that has to talk to me.

[00:52:38] And so I find that to be, for me, a useful thing.

[00:52:41] Maybe it's something that you can incorporate, or maybe not.

[00:52:43] Maybe you try it once and then think, this is the dumbest thing I've ever done.

[00:52:46] But it's a nice thing to do.

[00:52:48] It makes you want to hurry up.

[00:52:50] Like, when you talk about the last minute, things come together at the last minute.

[00:52:53] It makes me want to hurry up and finish it so that I could then talk to AI about it.

[00:53:01] I think that's great.

[00:53:03] I mean, I use chat to BTQ, but not to that extent.

[00:53:07] So what I need to allow about it.

[00:53:10] There's one of those.

[00:53:11] Yeah.

[00:53:11] Yes.

[00:53:12] I'm working on this.

[00:53:12] Yeah.

[00:53:13] Yeah.

[00:53:14] So I have no, I mean, obviously, like you already said, I mean, there's unethical in there.

[00:53:19] You know, you could steal sermons, you know, you have to plagiarize.

[00:53:22] You could do all kinds of stuff that, of course, you don't want to do.

[00:53:25] But to use it wisely, I used it in more like lecturing kinds of things,

[00:53:32] teaching a class on church history.

[00:53:34] And I'm doing a particular period.

[00:53:36] And I just say, hey, you know, give me an outline of this period.

[00:53:40] Yeah.

[00:53:40] And the key players.

[00:53:42] And it's become easy.

[00:53:43] I thought, gosh, that is such a great head start.

[00:53:46] Yeah.

[00:53:46] I found that, you know, in the past, it's gotten things wrong.

[00:53:50] And that's, of course, it's always assumed that it could get something wrong.

[00:53:53] And so always double check.

[00:53:54] But that's something that I'm interested in.

[00:53:57] And there will be a future episode of the podcast about.

[00:53:59] There's somebody that I know who is like, he's a lecturer at a university about like ethics and AI.

[00:54:05] And so he said that he's going to come on the show.

[00:54:08] But ironically, he doesn't like doing Zoom.

[00:54:11] He's nervous about it.

[00:54:14] So it has to be in person one.

[00:54:15] So we're trying to overlap our travels to do an interview about that.

[00:54:18] I think I did have one where it had something incorrect.

[00:54:22] Yeah.

[00:54:22] And I was reading it.

[00:54:23] And I knew that that reference was wrong.

[00:54:26] Yeah.

[00:54:27] But then you're like, wait, is it wrong?

[00:54:29] Because this is JGPT.

[00:54:30] Yeah.

[00:54:32] In the very early days, because I was a pretty early adopter of it, where I would say like, hey, give me quotes from the church fathers about them.

[00:54:40] And something came up.

[00:54:42] And I was like, that guy wouldn't say that.

[00:54:44] Yeah.

[00:54:45] And then I've doubled.

[00:54:45] And then it's actually, it's just made up.

[00:54:47] So it's not perfect.

[00:54:49] I wouldn't go to it for source material.

[00:54:51] But if I'm the source material, and if I put in my stuff, and I say, talk with me about that.

[00:54:57] And then even, like I said, yeah, summarize this into one sentence.

[00:55:00] And then if it summarizes it in a way that is different than I would summarize it, well, I think, well, it's actually, maybe I'm not putting the right emphasis on the right things.

[00:55:11] So that's a tool used with caution.

[00:55:15] Used with caution.

[00:55:16] And then, yeah, finally, and we started late.

[00:55:20] And then we guys, you guys talk too much.

[00:55:23] But like finally, like prayer before preaching.

[00:55:27] What's the, like, so we're not talking about sermon delivery.

[00:55:32] Maybe that's a workshop for next year.

[00:55:33] But we're just talking about from the text to the page.

[00:55:37] But when the page is of faith done, like what do you do?

[00:55:40] What's your prayer after?

[00:55:42] Yeah.

[00:55:42] I mean, on the outline you gave me, is the prayer thing, those eight steps of prayer?

[00:55:49] Suggestions.

[00:55:50] Yeah.

[00:55:50] Yeah.

[00:55:50] So, you know, I printed these out.

[00:55:52] So are you talking about them now?

[00:55:54] Yes.

[00:55:55] Yeah.

[00:55:55] No, I just can't know.

[00:55:57] The green sheets, which maybe Brian's going to reference or maybe not.

[00:56:00] Yeah.

[00:56:01] Well, I, you know, I just read over those and I thought, you know, these are all brave things.

[00:56:06] I, my brain doesn't have work like that to think about that.

[00:56:11] My brain is more like, Lord, help.

[00:56:13] Lord, here's the text.

[00:56:16] Here's what we're going to, you know, what we're going to do.

[00:56:18] So I'm just praying that you would help me to do what needs to be done.

[00:56:22] You know, so I'm more simple in that sense.

[00:56:26] I'm not going to break it down in like these sentences where, okay, God, no, I want you to do this.

[00:56:31] And I want you to do this.

[00:56:32] So again, I'm not putting it down.

[00:56:33] It's just not me.

[00:56:34] It's not the way I'm going to approach it.

[00:56:36] But I am absolutely going to pray.

[00:56:38] And I am going to pray until the very moment I open my mouth and begin to deliver the sermon.

[00:56:44] That's what I'm doing.

[00:56:46] And so you say you're praying, Lord, help.

[00:56:49] But like anything else?

[00:56:52] Yeah.

[00:56:53] You know, tell me to be clear.

[00:56:55] Help me to communicate the things that you want your people to hear.

[00:57:00] I'm always conscious of the fact that these are God's people.

[00:57:03] And God wants to speak to them.

[00:57:05] So I'm just like the middle, you know, so Lord, help me be the kind of middle man that I need to be to represent you and to communicate what you want to.

[00:57:15] So we're passing out to people.

[00:57:17] And, you know, soften their hearts and open their eyes.

[00:57:19] And, you know, maybe I know somebody that's been coming to church that's, you know, just in bondage to sin or something.

[00:57:27] So Lord, use this message for that person.

[00:57:31] So, yeah, on the green sheet, yeah, those are some suggestions.

[00:57:34] Maybe you can fold it up and put it in your Bible or maybe not.

[00:57:38] But those are, yeah, again, I think there's the time comes that we actually need to like, you got to stop studying and then start praying.

[00:57:45] And that's, for me, that's a crucial step because, you know, like I'll keep on revising up until the last second, you know.

[00:57:56] It's not uncommon, actually, to see me scribbling stuff down during the last set of, during the last song before I get up in the breach, you know, because.

[00:58:06] And so there comes a time where it just needs to be like, Lord, I am like pushing this onto you.

[00:58:13] And I ask that you would do more with this than I could.

[00:58:16] And my last minute scribbles aren't going to make much of a difference.

[00:58:19] But time spent in prayer prepares the preacher and it prepares the people.

[00:58:25] Yeah.

[00:58:25] And I would just say this just as a general rule.

[00:58:29] You know, there are, everybody who preaches has certain things that are, we all have these things in common.

[00:58:38] And so you listen to any preacher and you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:58:43] But then there's things that are just unique to them as well.

[00:58:47] And so what we need to just remember is that in one sense, there's no right or wrong way to do this.

[00:58:57] As long as you have the fundamentals covered, then you are you and God's going to do something with you and through you that he's not necessarily doing it in the same way through somebody else.

[00:59:11] And so you don't have to be intimidated and you don't have to feel ashamed.

[00:59:18] And you can just say, look, you know, this is the way God works through me.

[00:59:23] And all we want to make sure is that we're not being lazy and saying, well, you know, Brad's just going to work through me.

[00:59:29] Captain, you know, just because I, you know, whatever.

[00:59:32] But as long as we have done our part, we can count on God to do his part.

[00:59:37] And it'll be unique from person to person.

[00:59:41] Yeah.

[00:59:41] You're right.

[00:59:42] How do you work on being clear?

[00:59:45] Clear is, I mean, clarity is vital.

[00:59:49] And I think simplicity is clarity.

[00:59:52] So keep it simple.

[00:59:54] You know, sometimes you can get complicated.

[00:59:56] And sometimes, and I don't know if any of you guys are like this in the room, but, you know, Mike's like this a little bit.

[01:00:01] I'm like this too.

[01:00:02] I like deep theological kinds of things.

[01:00:05] And I can get into them.

[01:00:07] But then all of a sudden I realize, you know, nobody else out there even has any idea what I'm talking about.

[01:00:12] So I'm going to keep this to myself.

[01:00:15] Or I'm going to really, I'm going to work on simplifying it, you know, to get the essence of it, but in fewer words.

[01:00:25] So you want to be clear.

[01:00:26] If you're not being clear, then you're not really helping people.

[01:00:29] So, yeah, work on clarity.

[01:00:31] But simplicity leads to clarity.

[01:00:33] Yeah, I talk about inside thoughts and outside thoughts.

[01:00:36] Yeah.

[01:00:37] And not every inside thought needs to go out.

[01:00:40] Yeah.

[01:00:40] And we can work on that clarity, I think, through selectivity, as you're talking about.

[01:00:45] Yeah.

[01:00:46] So sometimes even, yeah, looking over what we're going to say and thinking, is this actually necessary?

[01:00:51] And does this land towards that point?

[01:00:52] Yeah.

[01:00:53] And what's of interest to me and other preachers?

[01:00:55] Yeah.

[01:00:56] And even like in, because I'm going to preach tonight to finish up.

[01:00:59] So even as I'm looking over my notes two or three times, every time I look at it, I'm like, oh, get rid of that.

[01:01:05] Get rid of this.

[01:01:05] You know, just little dangling things.

[01:01:08] That's the thing he said.

[01:01:09] But I think here's where you really need to be conscious of this is when you're quoting other people.

[01:01:17] And, you know, because sometimes, and I've done this before.

[01:01:20] I mean, sometimes I will give a pretty lengthy paragraph as a quote.

[01:01:24] But when I do it, I want to make sure that you ever read a paragraph and part of it you don't even understand yourself.

[01:01:31] And then you get up and quote it.

[01:01:33] And you're like, I don't know what it's even saying, but this part sounded really good.

[01:01:37] So you want to make sure you don't make a habit of doing that.

[01:01:43] And so, again, when I, if I have a longer paragraph of somebody that I'm quoting, I'm trying to quote it.

[01:01:50] I'm trying to communicate it in a way.

[01:01:54] I'm reading it in a way that it's engaging for the person, that they're really, it's not me just monotonally just up there reading.

[01:02:01] I'm putting the emotion into it and putting, you know.

[01:02:05] So, and then, you know, people are like, oh, yeah, this is what's going on.

[01:02:10] But, I mean, I, because sometimes I look at guys serving outlines and I think that's a really long quote and it's complicated.

[01:02:20] And most of the people out there don't even care about it anyway.

[01:02:22] But you love it because you're a preacher.

[01:02:24] Yeah.

[01:02:25] Yeah.

[01:02:26] Well, then, kind of, maybe also, how do you preach for application?

[01:02:30] Well, I think everything in the end has got to come around to some application.

[01:02:36] I like to, I do believe that the Holy Spirit is largely responsible for helping His work to be applied to people's lives.

[01:02:46] But also, people do sometimes need some just real practical steps on how to do it.

[01:02:51] So, I think your sermon should just lend itself.

[01:02:54] You want to make, you want to be making your way to those two conclusions.

[01:03:00] You know, Christ is glorified and people know how to take the next step to whatever the Lord's, you know, leading them to through the message.

[01:03:12] And sometimes it's very easy because the text itself leads to a particular application.

[01:03:17] Yes.

[01:03:17] So, this is how we can do this.

[01:03:19] Other times it's a little more ambiguous.

[01:03:21] So, you have to be maybe a little more creative.

[01:03:24] It might not be a fair question, but I know Sunday's sermon isn't written yet.

[01:03:29] It is.

[01:03:30] But when you talk about the sacrificial system and the priesthood, what are the questions you're going to be asking yourself to come up with an application to that?

[01:03:40] Yes.

[01:03:41] Like, how are you, I don't have to, you have to say what the application is.

[01:03:44] Yeah.

[01:03:44] But like, how do you go from that historic event or that historic office to then contemporary living?

[01:03:52] Yeah.

[01:03:52] How do we make that journey again?

[01:03:54] Well, one of the thoughts I've already had is just the whole idea of priesthood.

[01:03:59] So, you know, what is the priesthood?

[01:04:00] Why was the priesthood?

[01:04:02] And why does Peter say we are a chosen generation of royal priesthood?

[01:04:06] So, there's some application there for us because we are also a priesthood.

[01:04:11] What does that mean?

[01:04:11] What did it mean to them?

[01:04:13] What does it mean for us today?

[01:04:15] Really good.

[01:04:16] And then also, yeah, on this.

[01:04:18] Yeah, this is actually a sermon critique form that I wrote like 10 years ago for other preachers in my own church.

[01:04:27] And it is, we now use it for the expositors collective as well.

[01:04:32] It is, it's pretty thorough.

[01:04:35] And then also, I'd like to work on it and make it even more thorough.

[01:04:41] But this is just something that you could use on Ryan tonight, actually.

[01:04:46] Okay.

[01:04:47] Yeah.

[01:04:48] But I think it's a good set of questions, maybe even when you look at your own notes before you teach.

[01:04:54] Maybe like look over it with these types of questions in mind.

[01:04:57] Three lefts.

[01:04:58] Real quick.

[01:04:59] Yeah, Garrett.

[01:05:00] Any Bible software you guys use, like Logos Bible software, or is it just?

[01:05:07] You know, I have Logos and I don't use it.

[01:05:10] I just never have adapted to it.

[01:05:11] I know people love it, live by it.

[01:05:13] And I hear it's amazing, but I've just never been able to really get into the amazing part of it.

[01:05:19] Believe it or not, my only online Bible thing is Blue Letter Bible.

[01:05:25] I go to the letter Bible.

[01:05:27] And I mostly go just to use the Strong's Concordance.

[01:05:31] I mean, that's pretty much where I'm on.

[01:05:32] This is, me and Ryan are in 100% agreement.

[01:05:36] I own Logos.

[01:05:38] It's expensive.

[01:05:38] It's big.

[01:05:40] But I just do the letter Bible.

[01:05:41] So finally, we found something we agreed on.

[01:05:43] Thank you.

[01:05:44] Very good.

[01:05:45] Yeah.

[01:05:45] Thanks, guys, for coming along.

[01:05:49] All right.

[01:05:50] Well, thanks for listening all the way to the end.

[01:05:54] You know, throughout that conversation, I made reference to some previous episodes of this podcast.

[01:06:02] Episode 64 that Nick Cady did about outlining and the importance of starting with the destination in mind.

[01:06:10] Also, the Jonathan Pennington episode about the importance, allegedly, of the first minute and the last minute of your sermon.

[01:06:21] And also the episode concerning the right use of commentaries featuring John Whitaker, Nick Cady, and myself.

[01:06:30] So there's going to be links to those in the show notes.

[01:06:33] And also, I want to point you towards our website, expositorscollective.org.

[01:06:38] That has just the record, the all 350 episodes that we've put out up until this point.

[01:06:46] And you can go there and scroll back.

[01:06:49] You can also find us on YouTube.

[01:06:52] Some people find that search engine to be better.

[01:06:55] And sometimes people like to watch things in addition to simply listening.

[01:06:59] And I, yeah, there's a lot of great stuff in that back catalog.

[01:07:04] 351 episodes is a lot of episodes.

[01:07:08] And so hopefully there's something that will stimulate you and help you grow in your personal study and public proclamation of God's word.

[01:07:17] If you're on our website, expositorscollective.org, on the left side, there is a giving page.

[01:07:24] And guys, I would love if you get value out of this podcast that you give value back.

[01:07:32] We have operating expenses and it would be excellent if some of you would look at this as part of your charitable giving.

[01:07:42] You're giving unto the Lord, investing in a parachurch ministry that actually is completely devoted to helping the church

[01:07:50] and encouraging those that are called to teach and preach God's word.

[01:07:53] So if you'd like to invest into what we're doing for the next 350 episodes, expositorscollective.org.

[01:08:01] And then on the left, there is a giving tab.

[01:08:04] So thanks so much for listening.

[01:08:06] The next episode is going to come out next Tuesday.

[01:08:09] And it's about the importance of finding your own voice, not being a parrot or a paraphraser,

[01:08:17] but being prophetically your own voice in the teaching and preaching of God's word.

[01:08:22] I hope that one helps.

[01:08:23] And I hope that all that we do, Expositors Collective, helps you to grow in your personal study and public proclamation of God's word.