Christian Nationalism vs. Christian Stewardship in American Politics | Josh Blevins

[00:00:01] The question is not, are you light and salt? It is how are you shining and how are you

[00:00:06] savoring the world around you. And I think that's a good challenge for us as pastors

[00:00:12] and our churches to really look closely and say at every level, how are we saturating

[00:00:19] actively our communities and our world and the lost with the gospel and the truth and

[00:00:25] righteousness of God and the salvation Jesus Christ?

[00:00:30] Well today on the Leadership Collective we have a hot topic that we're addressing. We are calling

[00:00:35] this episode Christian Nationalism vs. Christian Stewardship in American Politics.

[00:00:42] And at the time of this recording, we are 54 days away from the election and many pastors are

[00:00:48] wondering what should I do in light of the upcoming election. Now our guest today on the Leadership

[00:00:54] Collective is Pastor Josh Blevins, Josh is the pastor of Grace Calvary Chapel in St. Joseph's

[00:01:00] Missouri at Great Church. I've actually been there and have the privilege of preaching there.

[00:01:05] And Josh is also authored an excellent article on the subject of Christian nationalism vs.

[00:01:12] Christian Stewardship in American Politics. And we are going to put the link to that article

[00:01:17] in our show notes today. But Ted, I'm excited to have Josh on the show today with us because

[00:01:23] I think we're discussing a topic that I think a lot of pastors are feeling the pressure

[00:01:28] maybe like never before when it comes to finding the balance between pastoring your church

[00:01:34] and at the same time addressing what can be conceived as political issues?

[00:01:41] Yeah, I totally agree. It's confusing. The days we live in because there are

[00:01:47] there's increased polarization and we feel it within our congregations more so for some

[00:01:53] certain geographic areas than others. And then there's this delicate balance between how do we

[00:02:03] refute some of the lies of the enemy? How do we assert Christ's centered

[00:02:11] a truth and refuting some of the policies that are coming up which are just such an

[00:02:17] to everything that we hold valuable and true as Christians. There's a lot of wisdom that's

[00:02:22] indicated. And I'm really excited to have Josh on the show today. I was able to read

[00:02:31] Lord Josh the article that you wrote and just on Christian nationalism vs. Christian Stewardship

[00:02:40] is very intriguing. He touched on a lot of things that I have thought and that I agree with

[00:02:46] and so excited Josh to have you on the program. Wanna welcome you?

[00:02:52] Yeah, hey guys it's joy to be on with you. I'm thrilled to have this discussion with you. It's so

[00:02:56] important especially leading up to an election and as divisive and polarized as things have

[00:03:01] become in our nation. I think it's really a discussion that pastors should be speaking into

[00:03:06] as biblically as possible. Josh we rob and I minister closely together here in Southern California

[00:03:15] and geographically we are close. But I'm curious what's the political and social

[00:03:21] climate like for you in St. Joe's Missouri?

[00:03:26] That's a great question, you know when I moved to St. Joe, Missouri my initial thought was

[00:03:34] I'm probably moving into one of the most conservative areas in the United States.

[00:03:38] But as I found out politically there's just as much divisiveness, there's just as much

[00:03:46] agenda on both ends of the spectrum here as everywhere else. You know we are fairly close to

[00:03:52] Kansas City which if you were to look at Missouri in the perspective of its major cities you

[00:03:59] have St. Louis on one side and Kansas City on the other side and I think both of those cities are

[00:04:05] probably the hub of the most liberal activity in the whole state of Missouri which is a very

[00:04:10] conservative and red state as far as the electoral map might show us. But so we're close enough to

[00:04:18] Kansas City where there is a significant amount of liberal influence and we kind of have that

[00:04:26] mixed of both and so the issues of especially LGBTQ issues here in this city there's a very

[00:04:36] militant group that is very strongly advocating for their policies from every level,

[00:04:43] from school board level to city council level to libraries. I mean they're very very vocal

[00:04:49] and involved which is really challenged us as a church about what we're doing as a body of

[00:04:56] Christ to speak the truth into the darkness within those areas as well as maintaining our

[00:05:03] witness to reach people for Christ. And so it wasn't a battle I was necessarily expecting in

[00:05:09] this part of the country but here we are and we have been in some battles I've been in a lawsuit

[00:05:14] that thankfully just got dismissed but I'm being sued again and so there's more here than I ever

[00:05:21] anticipated but God has done incredible work. I look forward to maybe sharing some of that with you guys

[00:05:26] as we go through this but it's been incredibly enlightening. Yeah that's awesome yeah we'd love to

[00:05:32] hear that and Josh let's start you know you authored this great article talking about

[00:05:38] the subject of Christian nationalism but even broader what is the role in responsibility of

[00:05:43] pastors and dealing with political and social issues so I'd love for you just to start our

[00:05:48] conversation by talking about the background and the basis of what is referred to today as

[00:05:55] Christian nationalism just so that you know we're sort of on a people listening can realize okay

[00:06:02] what it is that we're dressing and talking about. Yeah that's a great question and it's one that

[00:06:08] right before I wrote this article I myself wasn't incredibly familiar with I mean I heard the phrase

[00:06:13] thrown around but it wasn't until I was called one Christian nationalist and our church was

[00:06:21] called that that I was like what exactly is this and how do we define it and I found that

[00:06:28] it really depends on who you ask there are going to be those within the liberal circles

[00:06:33] that will say Christian nationalism is any Christian that advocates for for Christians to be politically

[00:06:42] involved with their worldview that they're going to be labeled right into that white Christian

[00:06:49] nationalist label because in their mind that that is going to be an influence right and

[00:06:59] an influence contrary to perhaps some of the agendas they want to pass through but as I really

[00:07:05] dug deeper into this again I was I was called a Christian nationalist by a reporter who was interviewing

[00:07:15] for some stuff going here in our city and she labeled me that based on the definition of

[00:07:23] Andrew Whitehead who's a professor of sociology at the Indiana University Purdue

[00:07:29] and this is what he said about our church he said Grace Calvary Chappel's belief

[00:07:34] go closely to a definition of Christian nationalism that academics have developed over the years of

[00:07:39] research. He said we find that Christian nationalism is a desire to see a particular expression

[00:07:46] of Christianity privileged in America's civil life based on traditional social arrangements like

[00:07:53] heterosexual marriage strict gender rules for men and women authoritarianism strong rulers

[00:07:59] a national ethnic identity identity and whiteness and populism victimhood of Christians so

[00:08:07] I read all those at that oh wow I'm learning new things about myself and her church

[00:08:12] so I really had to dig in well theologically we know that our nation is riddled in its history with

[00:08:20] Christians strong biblical Christians and theists in Godfaring people involved in developing our

[00:08:28] nation and so where does this idea come from and what does it mean for us today and I I started

[00:08:34] digging deeply more into eschatology which is a study of last days and some people listening

[00:08:40] might think well what does eschatology have to do with christian nationalism but I found that

[00:08:46] this involvement as in what we might call christian nationalism finds its root in the eschatological

[00:08:55] perspective known as post millennialism or the minion theology and what these frameworks

[00:09:03] posit just ensured is that God's kingdom this view asserts that God's kingdom must physically

[00:09:10] extend throughout the earth in a golden age of the church ruling and reigning Jesus ruling

[00:09:18] and reigning through his church in a very physical way through the institutions of power upon

[00:09:24] the earth and so those who hold this eschatology have these seven mountain mandates and have

[00:09:29] these ideas that Christians need to you serve authority in order to fulfill the great commission

[00:09:35] of Christ I mean that that's literally like forcing a Christian forcing Christianity upon people

[00:09:44] through this system of government and laws and so that is a framework that there are some

[00:09:55] Christians who hold that framework and who have this ambition to we might call it institute what

[00:10:02] might call it theocracy or a God-run state and we know that this has happened this mix of

[00:10:12] political power and the kingdom of God has been historically right and even England which is

[00:10:20] part of the reason why America was birth and that the Puritans initially came over here all the way

[00:10:26] back to the Holy Roman Empire and how some of those things came about but these theological

[00:10:34] ideas indeed have historical ties with American history and certain Christian movements that

[00:10:41] did play a role in our nation's formation I think of guys like Jonathan Edwards he was a key figure

[00:10:49] in the first great awakening he had a very prominent post millennial view about the Christian church

[00:10:57] coming into these political rules and a rule and power and John Weatherspoon who was a Presbyterian

[00:11:04] ministry and a founding father who played a role in shaping America's foundation he was a signer

[00:11:10] of the Declaration of Independence and he held post millennial views and so these these views did

[00:11:19] have a part in in in playing into our nation's founding but we need to understand the framework that

[00:11:27] this this eschatology brings upon people that are involved in this if I could just a couple quotes

[00:11:36] Dr. George Grant he's a prominent adherent to this dominion theology and he defines the system by

[00:11:43] stating but it is dominion that we are after not just a voice it is dominion we are after not just

[00:11:52] influence it is dominion we are after not just equal time it is dominion we are after world conquest

[00:12:00] that's what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish and so this is a perspective that carries

[00:12:08] a title of dominion theology sometimes reconstructionism and it seeks to institute a theonomy or

[00:12:16] a theocracy that is state forced submission even to God's Old Testament laws from the government down

[00:12:24] RJ Rashdoony was a Christian reconstructionist in the 20th century and he wrote a lot about this

[00:12:30] in his book The Institutes of Biblical Law where he laid out that all civil law should reflect

[00:12:35] Biblical law and so when I think of true Christian nationalism as it as it you take that phrase

[00:12:42] and you study where it finds its roots theologically in history you find that it is mainly based

[00:12:48] in this eschatology that the church has to take over all control in areas of politics and influence

[00:12:55] in order for the kingdom to come and so we can talk more about how that contrast obviously with

[00:13:02] what I believe as a primal in the old theology or eschatology that gives us a different motive

[00:13:08] a different framework through which we engage our society and our culture and that is the hope

[00:13:14] and the expectant return of our king King Jesus and who's bringing his kingdom with us but right

[00:13:19] now we have a stewardship responsibility as we wait to honor and glorify him in every capacity including

[00:13:26] I believe a political one and just to be clear so based on that definition you are not a Christian

[00:13:33] nationalist. I would say no I in fact I told this gal I said if you say Christian

[00:13:42] Nationalists if you mean Christian as in I trust fully and solely in the grace of Jesus Christ

[00:13:48] to sacrifice on the cross and that any sinner can be reconciled to God by his grace through faith

[00:13:53] and I'm a Christian and if you mean nationalist that I believe God has divinely placed me in a time

[00:13:59] in a country to honor him glorify him love my neighbor and an occupied tell he comes in the gospel

[00:14:07] commission then yes I'm a Christian nationalist but if you mean the Christian nationalist by the

[00:14:13] definition I just shared with you no that's not my or many the majority I would say of

[00:14:20] angelical Christians convictions at all yeah so there's a lot of people today I think that would just

[00:14:25] identify themselves that way and have no idea what you just shared about the background and what is

[00:14:30] really precise. Yeah the whole aim of dominion theology and you know the idea that we need to

[00:14:38] Christianize America and we're going back to you know consenting and what he sought to do with Rome

[00:14:44] so question for you guys and what ways do you think that is Christian nationalism is dangerous?

[00:14:52] Well I think outside of classic Christian nationalism which Josh just explained very well you know

[00:15:00] stemming from post millennialism and dominion theology all focus in my response to that question on

[00:15:07] what I see as as another form of you know Christian nationalism in hyper politically focused

[00:15:16] churches okay and and so and I and I think I would sum it down to one and I think it's that that

[00:15:25] brand of Christian nationalism breeds zealous cultural Christians who are confused about the balance

[00:15:36] between belief and behavior. Let me all illustrate it this way in Christian parenting our goal is

[00:15:45] to raise biblically responsive and morally responsible kids right and the idea is that rather than

[00:15:54] starting with an anchoring everything in you know how they behave and keeping the law of the house

[00:16:01] and so on we start by teaching kids to be biblically responsive biblically literate biblically

[00:16:08] responsive and then and it's from that that all moral responsibility follows right so so what this

[00:16:18] does when we focus on imparting to them a biblically informed moral compass then that compass

[00:16:30] is instilled within them and so now they're equipped to navigate right and wrong not according to the

[00:16:36] force of the law but according to the force of the word which is taking root in their heart and

[00:16:41] governing their actions and then that prepares them for not just being obedient when I'm around to

[00:16:48] enforce the law but for them to actually interpret moral situations in accordance to the law and that's a

[00:16:59] one then what the household law is the dues and the don'ts and I just focus on their behavior

[00:17:06] number one it's legalistic and number two it forces compliance to a moral law that they don't

[00:17:14] understand biblically they don't understand the moral reason why and so you know this is what I think

[00:17:23] Paul was talking about when when he was dressing Timothy in second Timothy two he said a

[00:17:28] little Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all able to teach patient in humility correcting

[00:17:35] those are in opposition if God perhaps will grant them repentance and so so that they may

[00:17:42] know the truth and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil having

[00:17:47] been taken captive by him to do as well and this describes our world perfectly that there are many

[00:17:54] have been taken captive by Satan to do as well and I think many adherence to a nationalistic focus

[00:18:02] on morality through legislation they miss the biblically responsive part and they go straight

[00:18:09] to the behavior and they skip over belief right and not only does this stem from in my opinion a certain

[00:18:16] amount of biblical illiteracy on the part of some of the pastors I think that it also is

[00:18:25] a certain degree of biblical illiteracy on the part of the the larger church the people of the church

[00:18:34] I'm reminded of what Paul said to the Romans he said I bear them witness that they have a zeal

[00:18:38] for God but not according to knowledge and I think there's a lot of people today that that have

[00:18:44] the nationalistic focus and are outraged at the things that we're seeing and rightly so but

[00:18:51] but in their zeal forgot they're the functioning in a way that is really not according to

[00:18:57] to biblical truth as it pertains out of reach the lost and live in a pagan world

[00:19:02] Jose, my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. Amos the days are coming to

[00:19:07] there's the Lord God when I will send a famine of hearing of the words of the Lord right and

[00:19:13] there's a lot of statistics that bear out those prophecies that we're giving about the

[00:19:21] famine of the word in the direction that we would go in I want to bear with me I want to share

[00:19:26] if you in the 2022 state of the Bible the American Bible Society reported the largest decline

[00:19:34] in Bible users among American adults then they'd ever recorded they saw a 10% drop year over

[00:19:42] a year and so from 49% 39% that they considered you know Bible users but it gets worse because

[00:19:52] they define a Bible user as somebody who reads or listens to the Bible outside of the church

[00:20:00] three or four times a year right and they say you know 39% three or four times a year

[00:20:08] and I can't help but wonder how many days how many hours those same people are tuning in

[00:20:14] and listening to the news right. Barna says only 60% of American adults can name even five of

[00:20:22] 10 commandments 12% of American adults believe Joan of Arc was Noah's wife 50% believe Sodom and

[00:20:31] Gamora were a married couple 42% believe that the Bible contains inaccuracies and isn't

[00:20:38] reliable and 24% believe that the Bible was not divinely inspired there was just a book written by men

[00:20:45] now here's the big one and I'm almost done I'll I'll I'll come up for air and Josh I'd like to hear

[00:20:51] you answer the same question only 6% of American adults according to Barna hold to a consistent

[00:21:01] Christian worldview only 6% and and so I suspect that there's a lot of people who would fall into

[00:21:12] the the definition of Christian nationalism that isn't the classic you know dominion theology

[00:21:19] post millennialism but I suspect in just from experience anecdotally from from our experience here locally

[00:21:25] I think there's a lot of you know a card carrying Christian nationals who would fall into the

[00:21:32] category of zealous cultural Christians who are confused about the balance between belief and behavior

[00:21:38] and they have a skewed understanding of their Bibles and and here's the big thing a skewed

[00:21:45] understanding of what it means to live out their faith biblically in pagan culture

[00:21:50] I think that you could sum up in one sense what you're saying I heard somebody say this recently

[00:21:56] that it's sort of the difference between being just biblical and being Christlike

[00:22:01] and how you know some people are very very biblical they know the principles they know the

[00:22:07] truth but they forget that we're here to be ambassadors of Jesus and represent him and so

[00:22:13] that the tone and the way that we say what we say really really is important and I think a lot of

[00:22:20] people are missing that especially and I just hate seeing Christians do this when they're you know

[00:22:26] writing things on social media platforms that are just just mean and really callist

[00:22:34] I hate seeing that and we're seeing a lot of that unfortunately today but

[00:22:38] what are your thoughts on that Josh as far as you know why do you think that the Christian

[00:22:42] nationalism and that whole thing we're talking about can be kind of dangerous today?

[00:22:47] Well I think I think those are powerful insights in regards to truly their does seem to be a

[00:22:53] disconnect in the general Christian between what it means to be focused on the heart transformation

[00:23:04] of people through living out and preaching the gospel and simple simply moral transformation

[00:23:10] of people by enacting external laws or commands or rules upon them. I think on the other side of

[00:23:19] that argument there is a balance that we as pastors should be striving to help our church is

[00:23:26] understand and that is you know Proverbs 14 says righteousness exaltation but sin is a reproach to any

[00:23:35] people and first Timothy chapter one Paul Paul even says you know the law is good if one uses it

[00:23:43] lawfully and then he goes through this list of of sinful practices right that that he says the

[00:23:49] laws for murders of men and more murders of fathers and mothers and Sodomites and the thieves and

[00:23:56] he goes through this list and so I think there's there's certainly a place for us to understand

[00:24:02] it is a godly good thing to want a nation that an ax laws of righteousness because those

[00:24:09] ultimately keep people safe and bless people through God's common grace. God causes it to raise

[00:24:18] me and caring for all people and I think that by by saying we want to see righteousness in our

[00:24:26] state and we uniquely live in a place where God has given us the opportunity to have a voice

[00:24:33] and to have involvement without persecution that we have to be able to find the balance of how to

[00:24:38] love people in that way. Of course the other side of that and I frame it typically for my

[00:24:46] people in this idea of stewardship and idolatry are always straddling the fence. I mean we think

[00:24:55] of think about this in terms of other things right like our bodies okay the Bible says our bodies

[00:25:02] are temples of the Holy Spirit so we should steward our bodies right we should we should think

[00:25:08] about how we take care of ourselves because I'm using my body to try to serve the Lord and to serve

[00:25:13] other people. That stewardship can quickly turn into idolatry if I spend all my time looking in the

[00:25:19] mirror in the gym measuring every calorie because now I'm worshiping my body. I'm still saying

[00:25:26] oh I want to glorify God with my body but what I'm doing in my heart is I'm worshiping my body.

[00:25:33] Yeah. Maybe you guys can relate to me this can even happen in ministry. Yeah right ministry

[00:25:38] is something we're called the steward. We have physical resources, we have church buildings,

[00:25:45] we have we have podcast opportunities, we have people doing things and so we want to steward them

[00:25:52] well and how easily though does that line get blurred from stewarding ministry to idolatry

[00:26:00] where it's like it's all about the next project and it's all about the building and it's all

[00:26:04] about our appearance and all of a sudden our heart shifts to worship the thing we're supposed to be stewarding.

[00:26:10] The reason I go through that whole build up is because I think the same thing happens in politics.

[00:26:16] I think God has given us a political steward ship opportunity and I think what happens is that people

[00:26:27] idolatry politics becomes an idol right two people because they root themselves in the

[00:26:34] temple instead of the eternal and so what ends up happening is they still use the language right well I'm

[00:26:41] doing this to honor Jesus and I'm doing this in the name of the Lord but in their hearts what they're

[00:26:46] saying is my hope is rooted in a political party or a the balance or the outcome of this next

[00:26:53] election and so I'm fighting for that because that's what really matters to me more than my hope and my

[00:26:59] trust being in Christ and so I really try to stress the people the answer isn't to run to the

[00:27:07] extremes in other words it's not either or yeah it's not like well you're either preaching the

[00:27:13] gospel and making disciples or you're being political well I don't think that's the right way to look at it

[00:27:19] I think well why can't we do both as a as a good steward of the gospel I might I might use these examples

[00:27:29] if we were looking at the poor in our community I could say one could ask well are you going to

[00:27:35] preach the gospel to them or are you going to give them food yeah I'm going to do both right exactly well

[00:27:42] are you going to disciple your kids are you going to teach them how to steward their finances well for

[00:27:46] the future I'm going to do both yeah and and so when I look at politics I kind of look at it

[00:27:53] that same perspective or you're going to preach the gospel and live for heaven and be focused

[00:27:58] on discipleship and transforming people's hearts or are you going to be political and I don't see

[00:28:04] a conflict if you're not entering the realm of idolatry right I think you can be focused on

[00:28:11] that the gospel is what's needed to change people's hearts and laws are good to govern society in a way

[00:28:17] that is is beneficial and embossing to those as Paul said in Romans 13 right where he talks about

[00:28:26] this is the purpose of government to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good

[00:28:31] in other words he's not just giving Christians a responsibility he's also giving government to a

[00:28:37] definition this is what they're supposed to be doing right and we have this unique opportunity

[00:28:43] in the history of the world to live in a place where the government that God established was

[00:28:51] you get a voice yeah and I I just get confused a little bit when sometimes people say well I don't

[00:28:57] want to use that voice because I'm just preaching the gospel well yeah but the gospel applies to

[00:29:02] a lot of areas of life that God really cares about but you can't put your hope in your trust in that

[00:29:09] idea that our future rests on the next presidential election no it's simply I want to

[00:29:17] steward this opportunity well to try to see righteousness in my community in a way that blesses and

[00:29:26] protects hearts and minds and innocent life and all of these sorts of things yeah I love I love how you

[00:29:32] you're emphasizing when something becomes idolatrous because I think you're putting your finger on

[00:29:39] the issue of

[00:29:45] I'm trying to think of a way to articulate this just an issue that we're seeing more and more

[00:29:50] that it becomes an issue of idolatry for so many people and that's problematic

[00:29:54] and that there is a balance between stewardship and idolatry and I think that that I love the way

[00:30:01] you articulate that I love you thought about that I think you're right on about that yeah I do

[00:30:06] too I loved in your article that whole concept of it's a matter of stewardship and that's just

[00:30:12] really resonated with me and you know for me personally I have no problem addressing political

[00:30:18] or social issues from the pulpit especially as they come up in scripture and it's you know easy

[00:30:25] to talk about in fact I think it's imperative that we speak on these issues but I also would say

[00:30:33] I think the way and the tone that we speak into them is so important and I've learned this the

[00:30:40] hard way you know over the years of being a pastor and I think part of it is what we've been

[00:30:45] talking about what you mentioned Ted and is that the landscape of those who are coming to church

[00:30:50] has changed dramatically in the last 30 years you know 30 years ago you could assume that most

[00:30:57] people mostly people coming to your church had a moral standard in a sense of a general biblical

[00:31:04] knowledge but that's not the case anymore more people in this country are biblically illiterate or they

[00:31:11] have a biblical view that is mixed with so many other ideas that that come from an enormous amount

[00:31:19] of soundbites and information that people are consuming constantly and they equate that they're

[00:31:26] mixing that with their their theology in fact I'll tell you guys a story that happened a few

[00:31:32] years ago there was a young couple and I'd seen them at the church for a couple of months and

[00:31:39] I noticed they had a little little baby and I just hadn't met them yet you know our church is

[00:31:45] you know it's a larger church so I had seen them at one Sunday though they came out to me and

[00:31:50] asked me if they could have their baby dedicated and I said sure you know great but did I ask the

[00:31:56] question which I usually do how long have you guys been married and to which they answered well

[00:32:01] we're not married and I said oh well why what's the deal you know how can you haven't got married yet

[00:32:08] and then she responded because he's married to somebody else oh my yeah and I was like you got to be kidding me

[00:32:18] you know sorry but not getting you did but it's but I think we would be surprised that there's

[00:32:28] a lot of people you know in our churches who and and this is what when I tell that story because

[00:32:36] they had no concept that that was wrong you know that's where they were coming from when

[00:32:42] they were coming out of was that you know they're just like hey we're going to church we're trying

[00:32:46] to get our life right we want to get our kid dedicated and just not even you know but there's

[00:32:52] a lot of people today you know that are living in that type of a mindset and so I think when we talk

[00:32:58] about let's say for instance the subject of homosexuality and the sin of homosexuality

[00:33:05] in the past I think I could assume that everyone here that's listening to me knows that that is a sin

[00:33:12] it's more complicated today especially with young people right who have friends that are in that

[00:33:19] lifestyle who they think are great people and they're generous and they're loving and so they struggle

[00:33:26] with telling them that their lifestyle is a sin you know in God's eyes and and I think for that reason

[00:33:34] we have to spend a little bit more time right and describing why all sexual immorality is sin

[00:33:41] in God's eyes not just homosexual and I think that's important also because there's a segment of

[00:33:48] Christians who will very willingly cast a spursion against no struggling with same sex attraction

[00:33:55] and they'll sort of you know wink at or sweep up the rug there everything actually it's

[00:34:01] you know and I think that's one of the things that we're dealing with today that I've come to

[00:34:07] realize is you know I have to really really consider my tone and and also you know to be careful

[00:34:17] to not just make blanket statements that are going to ostracize you know somebody who is maybe

[00:34:25] newer in their faith and you know they have no idea about some of these things and

[00:34:33] you know almost think in some ways dealing with the subject of just a young people today

[00:34:39] dealing with their friends who are in a homosexual or same sex you know relationship

[00:34:47] it's similar to Ted I think our generation going got 30 years ago and the way that we

[00:34:55] struggled with how do I deal with my Mormon neighbor you know who's a really good person you know

[00:35:03] they say they love God you know but they don't realize that they're in a cult you know and so

[00:35:08] I can't just go say you're going to hell you know I gotta approach them and I think that's the

[00:35:14] way the young people today are struggling with you know how do we address these kind of things and

[00:35:21] I think for those of us who are pastors and we're dealing with these things from the pulpit

[00:35:27] we have to keep that in mind the whole scope of who we're talking to and realizing that not

[00:35:34] everybody that's sitting in front of us or listening to us on you know our radio show or listening

[00:35:42] to our study later on online thinks the way that we do right and so we gotta be careful about just

[00:35:49] blanket statements and I think that makes our job a little bit more difficult because we have to give

[00:35:56] a little bit more time the things that maybe we use to does that make sense to you guys yeah you know

[00:36:02] Rob I think it's true I think that there is a call today for for people in the position of authority

[00:36:11] people in position of influences, Christians, leaders, pastors to be thoughtful and

[00:36:19] intentional about the way we address our culture and the issues that people are facing.

[00:36:26] My my challenge to myself and to to the pastor in that is that we need to be careful not to be so nuanced

[00:36:34] that we are no longer clear yes or so pragmatic that we lose the sense of well does this what

[00:36:42] I listen to this person talk eloquently for an hour but I don't know what they mean

[00:36:46] so I don't know what they stand for. All right just gotta touch on that because I've got

[00:36:50] an anecdotal story Josh White friend of mine pastors at Dorav Hope in Portland and he had

[00:36:57] a lesbian couple that had been coming for months and months and months and they were being you know

[00:37:03] he's he thinks you know rightly handling the word of God and ministering to them and they're

[00:37:09] welcoming them and they have been experiencing the love of community and yet when they wanted

[00:37:16] to take the step to get more involved in the church and serving and so on it was at that time

[00:37:22] that they found out oh wait a minute you guys aren't gay affirming and he said that they felt

[00:37:29] betrayed and so to your point Josh you're exactly right we can't be so nuanced that people really

[00:37:37] are unclear about what we're saying about the gospel and the word of God. Yeah I think it was years

[00:37:45] ago when I lived in California there was a lot of talk about this this project the bridge to

[00:37:51] nowhere I don't you guys remember that it's some California project that the government was

[00:37:55] funding to build a bridge and it never got finished so it just it just ended and it didn't go anywhere

[00:38:00] we have a dream to know right now a lot of times people are very vague they avoid a biblical

[00:38:07] issues or things that might be considered political because they say well we're trying to build a bridge

[00:38:13] to the unbelievers but the problem is a lot of times I see that the bridge never gets to the actual

[00:38:21] destination and we need to yes I mean Paul was as very clear with us that we are to

[00:38:29] to to speak the things that are good for edification that we are to be a study to show ourselves

[00:38:36] approved the workmen who need not be ashamed so we we ought to be those who know how to utilize

[00:38:41] words in a way that honors God and loves people at the same time being absolutely

[00:38:48] clear about the truth because people are hungry for truth and ultimately I think we all believe

[00:38:53] that it is the truth that sets people free and brings light into their darkness and ultimately

[00:38:58] points them to the hope of Christ not our not necessarily our our smooth talk or our

[00:39:05] bridge building as much as it is the power of the gospel itself but yes the vessels that carry

[00:39:10] that gospel I have to carry it in a way that honors Jesus I tell our people at the church quite frequently

[00:39:17] if people persecute you because you stand for Christ then praise the Lord for that if they

[00:39:23] persecute you because you're a jerk then go repent. Amen that's good that's good we have experienced

[00:39:31] again in Southern California that there is an advantage for some who take really

[00:39:44] conservative view and a hard line view more you know and really a political affiliation kind of

[00:39:53] but more of being in line with the Republican Party and I'm not I'm not knocking

[00:40:01] Republicans I'm you know I'm a Ronald Reagan Republican I thought but that's my personal thing

[00:40:07] slide having said that there's a lot of guys they go in that direction as a surefire way to

[00:40:13] grow their church and they're really embracing they're really leaning into these things

[00:40:20] with an eye towards church growth is that concern you guys it does me for sure and I think for one

[00:40:29] reason I think it can ostracize a group of people in your community that need Jesus

[00:40:37] and so anytime you know where I think being so hyper focused on you know a political party

[00:40:48] or even a political candidate I think it can ostracize you know somebody in the last thing that I want to

[00:40:58] do is is you know have somebody who isn't a Republican feel like I can't go to coverage up

[00:41:05] because I'm not a Republican back I have a lot of people in our church you know for one reason

[00:41:12] or another I might not totally understand it but you know our Democrats and and yet you know

[00:41:21] they come here and I think it's partly because you know our focus is primarily on Jesus and on the

[00:41:35] us you know political issues and look at them from a biblical you know pointed point of view but

[00:41:42] you know it seems like and I'm sticking very generally here but you know what what I've witnessed

[00:41:48] is it seems like guys that I have known that have gone down this road are in upper middle class

[00:41:55] areas that are predominantly white and that's predominantly who they end up they're preaching

[00:42:04] preaching to their choir yeah but one of your thoughts on that Josh yeah I might be a voice

[00:42:11] of a little bit of a different perspective so I hope that's okay with you guys but I'll I'll

[00:42:18] approach you from two different perspectives here first in regards to the question about

[00:42:25] that the you know how to Republican Montrez and candidates is sort of a sure fireway to

[00:42:33] gain a conservative base of people that are really excited about going to your church I agree

[00:42:39] that that is a thing you know there there's it seems to be this conservative movement

[00:42:45] that's gained traction and popularity and there are clearly those who have just jumped on the

[00:42:52] to milk it for all its worth yeah that says I'm not here to judge anyone's heart but that

[00:42:57] says more about their motive than it does what they're actually trying to accomplish for the Lord

[00:43:03] I think in regards to you know if we're playing any current you know current issue to try to

[00:43:13] get more people in our church and more people giving and to expand our name and our expertise

[00:43:20] in a subject I mean that's a problem at the heart level regardless of what it is

[00:43:26] be a political or not but I do recognize that there is a conservative movement where it's like people

[00:43:32] are more concerned with you know is my church going to vote for Donald Trump then does my church

[00:43:39] believe the gospel but I think we have to be honest that while it's not as popular there

[00:43:45] there are many progressive churches and more liberal areas that are growing for the same

[00:43:49] reasons on the opposite end well that's very forcing liberal candidates and they're promoting

[00:43:55] liberal doctrines and all these sorts of things so it's a it's a human trap I mean it's a pride

[00:44:01] trap that we have to certainly seek to avoid because we all agree I think that the church is not

[00:44:07] here to serve the agenda of a political party yeah however we should never silence our voices on

[00:44:15] a political truth just because it might align with one political party or another so we can't avoid

[00:44:23] truth because it might make us sound like we're supporting Republicans or that we might be against

[00:44:29] Democrats no the truth is the truth regardless of who it who it hits right I personally and this

[00:44:36] comes through a lot of prayer and a lot a lot of thought regarding this how do I instruct my

[00:44:44] sheet that God's called me to shepherd in regards to voting and I have on several occasions

[00:44:50] flat out said I don't believe Christians should be voting for Democrats that's my personal conviction

[00:44:57] because I feel like if a Christian is at especially with the clarity and the lines that have been

[00:45:02] drawn in the sand that are not vague and they're not hidden that if a Christian is voting for a

[00:45:11] Democrat they're doing it for either a reason of ignorance or a reason of affiliation and family

[00:45:17] ties or loyalty to to a party and I feel like it's my responsibility as a pastor to challenge

[00:45:24] loyalty's and affiliations that aren't centered in the truth and and so on the other end of that

[00:45:33] I am also not afraid to and and I do frequently by name and by party call out politicians who

[00:45:43] are running on policies that are using the name of God but but they're being so pragmatic

[00:45:49] that they're losing the truth I recently put out a short statement about how how danger it is

[00:45:59] dangerous it is for when Donald Trump was starting to be very pragmatic on the issue of abortion

[00:46:04] to try to win votes and and that this is not this is something you're on dangerous ground when

[00:46:10] you're playing with God's truth I don't care if you're a Republican or Democrat or presidential

[00:46:14] candidate but I think you know this idea of well what if I alienate people who are Democrats I have just

[00:46:24] had the conviction that that that I'd rather be on error on the side of telling them the truth about

[00:46:31] the the party that they're supporting and let the cards in the chips fall where they may

[00:46:38] interesting story though I'm not saying that this is a this is a stereotype or this is always how

[00:46:45] it plays out but we we I did challenge the Democrat minds on abortion on on sexuality and

[00:46:56] went through some things with our church on that and I got to email from um uh older lady in

[00:47:03] our church and see she said I just wanted to thank you for for doing what you're doing because my

[00:47:07] granddaughter is LGBTQ identifies it that way and she told me this last week that uh she's not willing

[00:47:15] to go to any other church except yours because you're the only person who she feels like uh challenges

[00:47:20] and makes her think about what she's doing so it's like you just you never know how truth is going

[00:47:26] to impact if you do it in a way that is not in line of like a personal attack on on a person or you're

[00:47:34] trying to be a hotty or or um or self-promoting I think that there is a at least at me as a

[00:47:43] pastor I feel challenged that I should provide as much clarity as possible because there are a

[00:47:48] lot of ignorant people out there and sometimes you just have to flat out say this is this is what it

[00:47:52] is and this is who it is um and the other the other reason I tend to be okay with supporting some

[00:48:00] candidates by name is because there are good people and there are yes um people that are not

[00:48:08] and that's not on every level that's and that's not on uh you I think a pastor ought to be very

[00:48:13] careful um and well studied on people that he personally endorses but like in our community we have

[00:48:21] two gospel-loving Jesus following people on our school board that go to our church our county

[00:48:27] commissioner goes to our church one of our city council members go to the church um and I am

[00:48:32] I'm not going to hesitate one minute to tell people in our church you should vote for this person

[00:48:37] I've sat down with them uh and their battles going on in our school board there are battles going

[00:48:42] on in our city and these people are gonna um are gonna love people well and they're gonna hold

[00:48:46] the line for biblical truth and so that's my conviction I'm not trying to push that on anyone else but

[00:48:51] I just have found it uh to be to be helpful to provide clarity on on those things at least for

[00:48:58] for a while we're at and our people yeah I would agree wholeheartedly with that and and I've

[00:49:03] um done similar things and and uh having you know our our mayor is a great Christian guy he loves the

[00:49:10] Lord and he really stands for you know biblical truth and so you know I invited him

[00:49:20] to come to our church and I prayed for him prior to the election um he came to our week of prayer and

[00:49:28] fasting and we laid hands on him and prayed over him after he was um you know uh uh he after he

[00:49:37] won you know the election I've done the same thing with school board members so I agree I think that

[00:49:42] there's a place and and uh and I would do that for anybody who you know loves Jesus and is standing up

[00:49:48] for and I don't think there's anything wrong with that you know what you said about addressing

[00:49:53] um issues I would probably and have done it this way Josh um similar to what you're doing but

[00:50:00] but I might say to archer something like this that you know can I want to talk about something

[00:50:05] and and I might clarify this way or frame it this way this isn't a Democrat issue and it's not

[00:50:12] Republican issue it's a Bible issue it's a biblical issue and so this is what the Bible says

[00:50:20] you know about this I say often to our church because I love to frame everything in in in

[00:50:26] and around the resurrection of Christ you know Paul said without the resurrection our faith is in vain

[00:50:31] and so I'll say you know we should have no questions at all about um marriage because Jesus said

[00:50:40] marriage is between a husband and a wife a man and a woman and Jesus rose again from the dead we

[00:50:46] should have no questions at all about gender because Jesus said that um God made them male and

[00:50:53] female and Jesus rose again from the dead you know and he's the only one that's done that

[00:50:58] and I'll go through a list of things that are the controversial issues today and frame him around

[00:51:04] you know this is what Jesus said and if we're following Jesus then you know we we have to take

[00:51:12] what he's saying as being you know the truth and but I might begin you know by saying this you

[00:51:21] know so this isn't a Republican issue it isn't a a Democrat issue with that the idea that

[00:51:26] hopefully you know the people are coming to a place of like okay oh I need to really think about

[00:51:32] you know who I'm lining up with and and are they following the things that Jesus said and and

[00:51:38] you know what the Bible says about right you know about these issues what are your thoughts on that

[00:51:43] Ted yeah I'm thinking about it kind of goes towards uh robber you and I were discussing either

[00:51:51] earlier and and that you know we wanted to bring up here which is where do we draw the line

[00:51:57] and addressing issues and endorsing candidates and hosting town hall meetings and so on so

[00:52:01] a lot of food for thought I personally um Josh Bahaerjikrethly I personally would not

[00:52:10] you know tell my congregation I would never vote for a Democrat although full disclosure I have

[00:52:15] never been in my voting years voted I'm 60 years old I'm never voted for a Democrat but you know

[00:52:23] and the only reason I wouldn't say it that way is because you know I'm encouraging

[00:52:30] my church members to grow in their faith and then to to enter into the exercising of their faith

[00:52:40] living missionally which includes in the ballot box it includes your investigating the situation

[00:52:46] and I think that when you talk about stewardship and I am so with you Josh on that I think that part

[00:52:54] of our stewardship and part of our congregation stewardship is that they need to investigate the

[00:53:00] candidates and they need to investigate the issues and and so I'm encouraging them to think and act

[00:53:08] biblically and to think and act in uh in a way of being obedient to the scriptures now uh we all

[00:53:16] the three of us sitting here at this table we can we can readily say well I'm going to look at

[00:53:21] a Democrat's platform and what they're in what they're voting for and what they're endorsing

[00:53:27] and I can compare that to the Bible and I can say well uh my Christian conscience would not

[00:53:33] allow me to vote in this way but but but I'm not I'm going to encourage my my people to grow

[00:53:39] biblically and think biblically and then to live as good stewards so um in that that's probably where

[00:53:47] it would stand as far as endorsing a candidate um I have no problems telling people who I'm voting for

[00:53:54] I will stop short of telling people who they shield vote for but I have no problems in saying

[00:54:00] this is who I'm voting for and this is why and you know hosting a town hall meeting I've done that

[00:54:08] before and relations it to it relation to matters to of our schools and being involved in situations

[00:54:17] where I invite a candidate to come I just did this a couple of weeks ago we have a gal she was

[00:54:22] a member of our church for many years um she's she now a member of another church in the community

[00:54:26] strong Christian gal um she's on our city council she's running for reelection I brought her up I

[00:54:32] introduced her the congregation I said hey this is this this gal's a great gal she's running

[00:54:36] I'm voting for I'm not telling you who to vote for but I but I'd like you to meet her I invited her

[00:54:42] be here and uh and I'd like you to meet her she's a strong Christian heads up a pregnancy crisis

[00:54:50] pregnancy counseling center in in town she she runs the that that segment of birth choice and

[00:54:58] you know a lot of a lot of admiration respect for her and what she's doing that's where I'm at

[00:55:03] you've done that as well haven't you Josh hosted some town hall meetings and that sort of thing yeah

[00:55:09] we actually uh created a website it's called vote Saint Jo.com kind of just found this uh domain

[00:55:18] and um we from just a a biblical worldview we put all the information on the candidates in our

[00:55:27] local election we send them questionnaires to answer and then we host uh forms here at the church

[00:55:34] from that and we've had two city council forums we've had three school board forums here at the church where

[00:55:43] a lot of the a lot of people come I mean people from the community of faith people just from the city in general

[00:55:49] and we kind of we kind of hold hold their feet to the fire a little bit on where they stand on certain

[00:55:55] moral and ethical issues and and then talk about you know just their their convictions for what they're

[00:56:03] had done that and it's um it's actually been really effective and in even building those bridges into the

[00:56:10] community as well as building a lot of great um relationships with people you know that we can just

[00:56:18] call them and you know what do you need prayer for where you go on through right now how can we support

[00:56:22] you um those kind of things so it's been it's been good and the church has really gotten behind it

[00:56:27] that's awesome now just to be clear you're not doing that on Sunday morning you're doing that like

[00:56:32] on an off night uh yeah you're not replacing having a school board forum with your teaching of

[00:56:40] the word of God on Sunday morning. No no I'm not just something we do yeah extra curricular

[00:56:47] you know I know here we have it's called impact group and you know they're out in our courtyard

[00:56:54] many Sundays after church and just they're to answer questions and help you know educate people

[00:57:01] in the body um you know we're gonna have a few weeks where we're registering people to vote and

[00:57:08] you know doing that type of thing because I think all of that is important yeah I know for me

[00:57:11] one thing I wouldn't do when talking about what where would I draw the line is I won't platform

[00:57:17] anybody whose life and character doesn't match Christian principles even if they are you know

[00:57:26] running as a conservative but their their lifestyle just doesn't match um I would have a hard time

[00:57:34] personally platforming somebody like that um so that's the place where I would probably draw the

[00:57:41] line yeah on any places where you guys would draw the line as we kind of wrapped this up today

[00:57:50] draw the lines I I'm at when I think of um yes supporting candidates or uh encouraging people

[00:57:57] regarding platforms um you know I I think we find ourselves an interesting interesting place because

[00:58:07] we know that we are mainly voting for secular people in secular offices this and so

[00:58:15] we know that we're not ever going to get the ideal Christian candidate you know our

[00:58:21] I was I just I'm teaching through Titus right now and I kind of joked around with the church

[00:58:25] after we got through chapter one like what what if all these qualifications for the elders were like the

[00:58:30] qualifications for our our political leaders you know what that would look like and it was you know

[00:58:36] it's just that that just shows you the contrast of where we're at as a as a as a nation but um you

[00:58:41] know I still I still do encourage people like we can call out moral issues in in life

[00:58:47] people's lives on our leaders that we see we can challenge those things and yet if in my mind

[00:58:54] my conviction that if we have two choices um and we have the uh we still have the freedom to help

[00:59:00] make a selection between those two choices I'm going to try to make a choice of what I think is

[00:59:06] going to pollute the stream the least you know um if someone puts me at a stream I have to drink the

[00:59:11] water I'm not gonna I'm not gonna vote for the person who's gonna dump stew is generic in the

[00:59:18] clean it up a little bit and maybe not all the way and I know that might be a silly analogy but

[00:59:22] I just think that we're kind of in that place or we have to stew it our freedom and our and this

[00:59:27] opportunity we have to speak um encouraged people we know that are good to to run for office that you

[00:59:35] know obviously summer called some aren't not everyone's called to the hat but there are some

[00:59:39] people who are and it's good to invest in those people encourage them be a support to them because we need

[00:59:45] more good people like that in our in our leadership but but certainly understand what you're saying

[00:59:49] you know we we should never fear man so much that we are not willing to say anything from the pulpit that

[00:59:55] is true um and that is is right and so I think that's really what it comes down to for me and then

[01:00:01] yeah I think uh in addition to what you guys have said I would just add anybody who is um in

[01:00:13] the just the truth that you stand for is gonna be in syndierian divisive and which case I say

[01:00:18] preach take that stand so I'm not talking about that but I think that there are those people who

[01:00:24] who are just lightning rods for division and they're and they are they are purposefully divisive

[01:00:31] in their rhetoric or whatever I will draw the line there I'm not gonna end by anybody like that

[01:00:36] to be involved either all right um he is we wrap this up today and Josh thanks so much for your

[01:00:42] time and love your kids insights and thank you for that article that you wrote but as we kind

[01:00:49] of wrap this up any final thoughts that you'd like to share with our listeners.

[01:00:56] Well I know for me that Ephesians 5 11 through 14 has been a really driving force in the

[01:01:02] cultural context in which we live um that's what Paul exhorts us to have no fellowship with the

[01:01:09] fruitful works of darkness but rather expose them for it's shameful even to speak of those things

[01:01:15] which are done by them in secret but all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light

[01:01:21] for whatever makes manifest is light therefore he says awake you who sleep arrives from the dead

[01:01:28] and Christ will give you light and that that picture to me lines up perfectly with Jesus'

[01:01:35] expression of our identity the salt and the light of the earth he didn't say uh try to be

[01:01:41] the salt and if you can shine as the light he said this is what you are yes it's just the question

[01:01:47] is not are you light and salt it is how are you shining and how are you savoring the world around you

[01:01:53] and I think that's a good challenge for us as as pastors and our churches to really look closely

[01:01:59] and saying at every level how are we saturating actively our communities in our world and

[01:02:07] the lost with the gospel and the truth and the righteousness of God and the salvation of Jesus Christ

[01:02:14] and so that's been a real challenge to me and I think that everyone should think

[01:02:20] not just in slices of the pie but as the whole pie like what should my stewardship look like

[01:02:26] as an American as a citizen of heaven that these are things are not separated but God's given us the

[01:02:32] ability to put them all under his lordship Amen amen amen and I think my last word would

[01:02:39] dovetail with what Josh just just said I think that in doing what he said second Timothy 2

[01:02:47] 24 through 26 I quoted it earlier serving the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all

[01:02:53] able to teach patient in humility correcting those who are in opposition if God perhaps will grant

[01:03:00] them repentance so that they may know the truth and that they may come to their senses and escape

[01:03:05] the snare of the devil having been taken captive by him to do his well Amen amen amen

[01:03:12] hey as we close I want to I want to just pray for guys that are listening this right now and

[01:03:19] who would or just thinking about how to navigate this so I'm going to just close our time

[01:03:25] in that way Lord we come before you and where we do just consider it incredible stewardship

[01:03:31] that you've given to us to teach the word of God and to shepherd the people that you put

[01:03:37] in front of us every week and so Lord I pray for those as pastors and leaders who might be

[01:03:45] listening to this who are maybe struggling and trying to figure out how to walk this line and

[01:03:53] how to navigate this road right now and who maybe have been just a little bit confused Lord I

[01:04:02] pray first of all that what we've talked about today would be an encouragement to them and I

[01:04:11] am to be that salt and light that you have called us to be and to permeate the darkness and to

[01:04:20] shine as lights in the midst of the darkness but to do it in a way that represents you and so I pray

[01:04:28] Lord for the pastors and leaders listening to this I pray for their their wives Lord that you

[01:04:35] help them and you help all of us to be the ambassadors of Jesus Christ to our churches and to our

[01:04:43] communities that you've called us to be to be those who stand strong for truth and for righteousness

[01:04:51] but also know how to speak the truth and love and with grace and Lord that all of us would find

[01:04:59] our churches being effective in reaching people who are in and who are being held captive to the

[01:05:08] lies of the enemy that are permeating this age in which we live and so I just pray blessing upon

[01:05:14] Ted and Josh and their ministries and we just thank you so much for allowing us to have this

[01:05:21] conversation today in Jesus name amen amen thanks Josh thanks for me and with us appreciate it man

[01:05:27] thank you guys so much I was fun yeah thanks Josh appreciate it tell uh tell Ashley high for

[01:05:33] Denise and I and uh yeah keep up the good work bro thanks brother love you guys bye

[01:05:40] Amen well that concludes our episode for today and we just want to thank you so much for

[01:05:44] tuning in to the leadership collective podcast and if this podcast has been a blessing to you

[01:05:51] informative and helping you in your ministry and in your leadership we would love it if you would like

[01:05:58] and subscribe and even share this podcast with a friend it really helps us and just getting the

[01:06:06] word out and we just feel very committed to wanting to encourage pastors and leaders in their calling

[01:06:13] and in their mission if there are any questions that you would like for us to address or subjects

[01:06:22] that you like for us to address please email us to leadership collective podcast at shemail.com

[01:06:30] and we would love to hear from you and you can also reach us on our Instagram platforms and

[01:06:43] anyway until next time I pray that you would just keep Jesus the center of everything that you

[01:06:52] are doing in your leadership and in your ministry and that you would be growing in your own

[01:06:59] personal intimacy with him and the the power of Jesus and the grace of Jesus to share

[01:07:08] and serve and do what he's called Jesus to do and so until next time God bless you