S6.E15 - Mental Health

[00:00:05] Well, hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Leadership Lessons Podcast.

[00:00:09] I'm Daniel Williams, your host, and I'm always excited to be with you, to be able to share

[00:00:14] stuff that I'm going through, learning and growing.

[00:00:17] You know, it's a 15 minute simple job to set up my camera, give this information and

[00:00:22] disseminate it to you.

[00:00:23] And I'm so grateful to do that.

[00:00:25] It's one of my favorite things to meet with other church leaders.

[00:00:28] And I know it sometimes seems weird where we meet through earbuds or through video watching

[00:00:34] or listening, but I really consider it a privilege and honor to try to encourage and equip church

[00:00:39] leaders wherever they are in the world, especially with the people that I enjoy being around, learning

[00:00:45] and growing from, and just seeing how this podcast has grown to give information and hopefully

[00:00:51] an impartation of revelation of what God is teaching me and how I'm learning and growing.

[00:00:55] I always want to be in a position of humility and learning, and I got a lot of ways to go.

[00:01:01] But thank God that he's connected us, you and I, but also just how he connects us with divine

[00:01:07] appointments and people in our lives.

[00:01:09] And today I want to introduce to you a person that is near and dear to my heart, Kristen Torres.

[00:01:14] Kristen Torres.

[00:01:15] And we're going to talk about mental health today.

[00:01:18] Mental health.

[00:01:18] Now, Kristen Torres is a licensed mental health counselor, and her and her husband actually did

[00:01:23] a church planning residency at our church a few years back.

[00:01:27] It's been so long.

[00:01:29] They just celebrated their five-year anniversary, shepherding and pastoring Proclaim Church in

[00:01:34] Lantana.

[00:01:35] We're still in a relationship.

[00:01:37] We just celebrated her birthday.

[00:01:38] We're actually going to be doing an event together on mental health and subject of God

[00:01:43] and anxiety.

[00:01:43] And it's been awesome to be able to watch her gifts be used by the Lord.

[00:01:48] When they were a part of our church as a residence for planning their own church, one of the things

[00:01:53] was assessment and just saying, hey, where do you feel God's leading you?

[00:01:56] And she is really gifted and strong in counseling, of course, being a counselor, but God's word

[00:02:02] and a teacher and a gifted teacher.

[00:02:04] And so we sort of brainstormed and had these ideas.

[00:02:09] I'm just giving you a little origin story.

[00:02:10] Having these ideas of like, where does God meet us in mental health?

[00:02:14] Mental health right now is great to have that language.

[00:02:18] Mental illness.

[00:02:19] It seems like a buzzword, but it's really the millennials and down have language now to

[00:02:23] put forth like emotional health and these type of things to have language of what they're

[00:02:28] going through.

[00:02:29] And post-COVID, it got a lot of attention.

[00:02:32] And so we wanted to say, okay, you're gifted in this.

[00:02:35] You can speak on this from God's word.

[00:02:37] What does the Bible say about mental health?

[00:02:40] What does the Bible say about depression?

[00:02:42] We even tackled and started doing these events called God and God and anxiety, God and suicide,

[00:02:49] God and depression, God and fear.

[00:02:51] And so we were doing this as outreaches and other churches were getting involved and we

[00:02:56] just saw a lot of fruit and it opened up a lot of discussion about mental health.

[00:03:00] And so what I wanted to do is as this is permeated our culture and continues to flourish

[00:03:05] in the language that we are aware of, it's not uncommon to talk about mental illness,

[00:03:10] mental health, emotional health, all these different things.

[00:03:12] So I wanted her to come on and speak to us as church leaders as a, not just a mental health

[00:03:18] counselor, but she's licensed in that, but also as a pastor's wife, as a church planner,

[00:03:23] as someone that loves Jesus, is dear to our lives and being able to just pour in.

[00:03:31] And I just said, Hey, would you give us a leadership lesson on just mental health?

[00:03:34] Uh, just speak to us the importance of it, compassion.

[00:03:37] How do you approach it?

[00:03:38] What are some things about that?

[00:03:39] And I'm excited for you to, to see, uh, her wisdom, her experience in that area.

[00:03:45] But then after the leadership lesson, I dive deep into a, um, into an interview.

[00:03:52] Uh, we actually talk for over an hour, actually about two big subjects.

[00:03:57] Uh, and, uh, part of that interview was me interviewing her about mental health.

[00:04:01] What are some of your pet peeves?

[00:04:03] What, how do you learn from this?

[00:04:04] What about a pastor?

[00:04:05] Your, their perspective?

[00:04:06] Does it, when does a counselor need to jump in?

[00:04:08] And so I just wanted this, uh, episode to be all about mental health.

[00:04:12] I know that I only have Kristen with a leadership lesson and interview, but the interview is quite

[00:04:16] long.

[00:04:17] Uh, the lesson is great.

[00:04:18] You're going to love the content.

[00:04:19] And I want to encourage you, um, to just walk through, walk through it with people.

[00:04:27] Uh, you know, um, as I've been able to talk about the subject,

[00:04:31] of mental health, just announcing it and being aware of it and not having people be ashamed

[00:04:37] of their depression or anxiety, or that they're on medication as a pastor to love and care

[00:04:42] for them.

[00:04:42] It's been so helpful.

[00:04:43] So good.

[00:04:44] In fact, so much that I'm having Kristen come into our church covered chapel, the Palm

[00:04:48] beaches this month to do a God and anxiety.

[00:04:51] I think there was a lot of stress with politics, with finances right now in our economy, with

[00:04:56] the holidays coming up and scheduling and pack.

[00:04:58] Like there's, there's a lot of anxious people.

[00:05:01] And so what does God say about our anxiety?

[00:05:03] Uh, is there any verses about that?

[00:05:05] How do you help people going through anxious thoughts and stress?

[00:05:10] And, uh, what would God have to say about that?

[00:05:11] And I think it's going to be a blessing to our church.

[00:05:13] I know that many of you aren't local, but if you are, man, it's October 30th, the last

[00:05:18] Wednesday of the month.

[00:05:19] You can check it out on our website.

[00:05:20] But, um, listen, if you want to reach out to someone, I've had Mark and Volney, uh, come,

[00:05:26] he's done mental health events and trauma and, uh, just counseling people.

[00:05:30] Uh, I think it's a really important thing to be able to address these real issues in

[00:05:35] people's lives.

[00:05:36] And so I'm excited to have her share.

[00:05:38] I'm going to have her do her interview or do her leadership lesson.

[00:05:41] First, I'm going to jump, uh, back on right before the interview, just to set it up and

[00:05:46] give you a special announcement about that.

[00:05:48] So here is Kristen Torres, uh, married and wife to Will Torres, a good friend of mine,

[00:05:53] pastor, local area.

[00:05:54] So, uh, good to be able to be walking alongside of them and seeing the work that Jesus is doing,

[00:06:00] not only in their church, local context, but in our community as they're ministering.

[00:06:04] And so God bless you guys.

[00:06:06] Enjoy her leadership lesson.

[00:06:11] Hi everyone.

[00:06:12] I'm Kristen Torres, and I'm so glad to be here with you today.

[00:06:14] I'm a licensed mental health counselor and a pastor's wife.

[00:06:18] So I am looking forward to having this conversation about mental health and ministry and, and people

[00:06:25] and life and all these things.

[00:06:27] So I have some points I'd love to go over with you guys today.

[00:06:30] So the first thing is, um, mental health.

[00:06:32] I really think that we have, and if we look at the numbers, I think we have a mental health

[00:06:36] crisis in our country.

[00:06:38] So many people are struggling right now with mental health issues.

[00:06:42] What is a mental health issue?

[00:06:44] A mental illness is a condition that affects a person's thinking, feeling, behavior, or mood.

[00:06:50] So not everyone that's dealing with a mental health issue has necessarily a diagnosis, but

[00:06:56] some people do, right?

[00:06:58] So a lot, there is so much going on.

[00:07:01] And I think in particular, ever since the pandemic of 2020, the lockdown and everything

[00:07:06] that happened during that year.

[00:07:08] And then the subsequent years, I think just, um, the mental health issues have just increased.

[00:07:14] There was a lot, I think that was already kind of brewing underneath the surface.

[00:07:17] And with all of what, what went down and the increased level of stress and really the collective

[00:07:23] trauma that we all went through, I just think it got a whole lot worse.

[00:07:27] Um, did you know that one out of every five adults in the U S is experiencing a mental illness

[00:07:33] that is coming from, by the way, that's a point from NAMI, the national Alliance on mental

[00:07:38] illness.

[00:07:39] So they, that's what they are stating at this time.

[00:07:42] One in five U S adults is experiencing a mental health issue or mental illness each year.

[00:07:48] That's potentially 20% of the people in your congregation, in my congregation, right?

[00:07:54] The people at our, at our church.

[00:07:56] So I, when I saw that number, I wasn't necessarily surprised, but it really stuck out to me because

[00:08:02] it, it, I think reinforced the importance of being aware of what's going on.

[00:08:09] For people.

[00:08:11] Um, there's a quote that I have heard and you may have heard it before as well.

[00:08:15] It's attributed to several different people, but basically it says, be kind.

[00:08:18] Everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.

[00:08:21] And I think this fits so well with the idea that so many people are struggling with mental

[00:08:26] health issues or mental illness.

[00:08:28] So mental illness, another point here, mental illness is most of the time invisible.

[00:08:33] We can't see usually, or most of the time we can't necessarily see that someone

[00:08:38] is actually having a mental health issue or going through a mental illness.

[00:08:42] Unlike when someone has an injury, a broken leg, a broken arm, right?

[00:08:46] We can so easily and very clearly see those things.

[00:08:49] So we don't doubt that someone's hurt.

[00:08:51] But when we're talking about mental illness, a lot of times it is invisible.

[00:08:55] We can't see that someone is going through something or struggling or having a difficult

[00:08:58] time.

[00:08:59] And so I think, again, it just points back to the importance of, I think, of the awareness

[00:09:04] of it and the sensitivity and even empathy for people's journeys, right?

[00:09:09] We don't always know what someone, or let me just say, a lot of times we don't know what

[00:09:15] someone's going through potentially at home.

[00:09:17] We don't know what it took for someone to get to church that morning, right?

[00:09:21] And how hard that may have been.

[00:09:22] And I know that years, years, years back, a lot of years back, I went through a pretty

[00:09:27] significant time of depression and I was going to work every day and I looked just fine.

[00:09:32] No one would have been able to tell anything on the outside.

[00:09:34] But yet on the inside, I was struggling very, very deeply.

[00:09:39] And thank God, God help.

[00:09:41] And the Lord met me in that time and in that place.

[00:09:45] However, again, you can't always tell.

[00:09:48] And that's the whole thing with mental illness.

[00:09:50] And why it's so important that we have sensitivity to people and are aware that this may be going

[00:09:56] on, you know, for people.

[00:09:59] When someone has gone through depression or is going through depression or even has a

[00:10:03] history of trauma, we have to realize too that I think that we may be saying something in

[00:10:10] one of our messages and Bible study or teaching or a sermon, right?

[00:10:15] And we think they may be hearing something in a certain way.

[00:10:17] But when someone is struggling now or has struggled in the past, they may be hearing what you're

[00:10:22] saying or what we're saying in a very different way from which we intended.

[00:10:28] So even having that sensitivity, you know, being aware that that may be happening, I think

[00:10:34] helps us in maybe taking a pause and even clarifying some of those sticky points that we may be

[00:10:42] saying things that can potentially be misconstrued, even pausing and acknowledging that some of

[00:10:48] this may be hard to hear.

[00:10:50] You know, I've seen where pastors have done that before and just, and I try to even do

[00:10:54] that when I speak.

[00:10:55] It's just a pause and say like, listen, what I may be saying may seem so clear, but for you,

[00:11:00] this may be really, really hard.

[00:11:01] And so I think to be able to give space for nuance, you know, to understand that everyone

[00:11:07] may not be coming to the same conclusion when we're talking or when we're speaking with someone,

[00:11:12] I think is really, really important.

[00:11:14] And obviously, to a degree, I have that luxury as a therapist because I'm sitting down with

[00:11:18] people and spending hours and hours with them and just listening to them, right?

[00:11:23] And talking with them one-on-one.

[00:11:25] And so I'm able to hear all of that nuance and context of their story.

[00:11:29] You know, that's one of the privileges that we have as therapists, but I think we can still

[00:11:34] do that when we're talking, you know, speaking to a whole lot of people as well by just acknowledging

[00:11:39] this is hard stuff.

[00:11:41] Life is hard, right?

[00:11:42] I don't think anyone would disagree with me, you know, listening here that life is tough.

[00:11:47] And so I think just even acknowledging that helps people just kind of take a deeper breath

[00:11:52] sometimes when they're listening on a Sunday morning or a Wednesday evening or whenever

[00:11:57] that the Bible study or the message is.

[00:12:00] Something else I think that's important is to be aware of the indirect or direct messages

[00:12:05] that we're giving to people about mental illness, about the treatment they may be seeking out

[00:12:10] or receiving, or even about therapy or medication.

[00:12:13] I, in some ways, I'm still so surprised we're in 2023, almost 2024, and we still have such a

[00:12:21] stigma about mental health and people getting help or even taking medication or whatever

[00:12:26] it is that they need to do to try to feel better or to get better, right?

[00:12:30] There's so many, there's so much judgment that still happens out there.

[00:12:35] And I would have to say also at the same time, I've seen a lot of growth and a lot of people

[00:12:39] that have expanded their understanding of this whole topic so that it isn't necessarily

[00:12:44] as taboo as it once was.

[00:12:46] But I really want to, something to think about, I want to encourage you with is try not to

[00:12:52] oversimplify human issues, right?

[00:12:54] Well, but this verse says, you know, do this and it's going to be fine, right?

[00:12:58] And that, this doesn't take away from the fact that what the Bible says is true.

[00:13:02] It's the best wisdom that we could ever get is straight from the Lord, right?

[00:13:08] And I am in complete agreement with that.

[00:13:10] But I think sometimes we have to acknowledge that for some people, that's a hard thing that

[00:13:17] what they're hearing in that message or potentially that verse or something, that's a hard thing

[00:13:21] for them to do or to receive.

[00:13:22] It doesn't make it not true, but it's also okay to sit with someone and say like, this

[00:13:27] is hard for you, isn't it?

[00:13:28] And let them express how difficult that is because there's hard things for all of us to

[00:13:33] hear, even if they are true.

[00:13:35] And even if they are the ultimate wisdom, sometimes we just have to be, and maybe I should even

[00:13:40] say most of the time, it's really good just to be human with someone and say, this is really

[00:13:44] tough.

[00:13:45] This is tough stuff to hear.

[00:13:47] This is hard to go through as opposed to trying to oversimplify.

[00:13:51] And even, and I've talked about before in my talks about just throwing verses at people.

[00:13:55] I think we've really hurt people by just throwing verses at them and trying to oversimplify

[00:14:01] human problems or when people are really in the midst of a whole lot of suffering.

[00:14:05] So I think having that sensitivity, having empathy, trying to like imagine what it's like

[00:14:11] to walk in someone else's shoes and giving room and space for them to just be human.

[00:14:17] Because I think at the end of the day too, what we can trust is that the Lord is big enough

[00:14:21] to handle all this.

[00:14:22] And he is the one that truly is long suffering with us.

[00:14:27] So he's not concerned about people struggling as far as struggling to accept a verse or

[00:14:35] accept a truth or any of those things.

[00:14:36] He knows exactly what they need to walk through or go through in order to learn the lessons,

[00:14:42] just like he's done with all of us, right?

[00:14:43] He has stuck with us and we are messy, messy, messy, messy, sinful people, right?

[00:14:51] Who have been given a new identity, but at the same time, that's where we came from.

[00:14:54] So, but even in that, right?

[00:14:57] People still struggle even with our new identity, you know, even with the fact that the old man,

[00:15:03] you know, has been, has been crucified with Christ.

[00:15:05] We can still struggle with, with sin and, and just living in this fallen world.

[00:15:10] And I think mental health issues and mental illness is part of that fact that we're living

[00:15:15] in a fallen world because we all well know that this is going to be finished when we're

[00:15:20] in heaven.

[00:15:20] There's not going to be mental illness and there's not going to be any need for therapists

[00:15:24] like myself because we're going to be with the wonderful counselor.

[00:15:27] So none of this will be necessary.

[00:15:31] When regards to also the, the idea of being aware of the messages that we're giving, I

[00:15:36] think, you know, medication, someone being on antidepressant medication, anti-anxiety medication,

[00:15:43] anti-psychotic medication even, right?

[00:15:45] I think we have to be so, so, so, so careful as ministry leaders, um, to honor someone in

[00:15:54] their journey and not cross that line.

[00:15:57] If someone is seeing a medical professional and they are receiving, they have a prescription

[00:16:02] that it's really between them and the medical professional is what I would say.

[00:16:06] Um, I have heard, unfortunately, I've heard so many stories of people getting really bad

[00:16:13] information, misinformation, um, really negative feedback about these types of issues about

[00:16:19] medication or even therapy or treatment.

[00:16:22] Um, and that has caused a whole lot of confusion.

[00:16:24] And it's been from some ministry leaders, um, that are, I think at times well-meaning, but

[00:16:32] misinformed or just uninformed, right?

[00:16:34] Because for a lot of, I think ministry leaders or pastors, that isn't necessarily your, that's

[00:16:39] not your training, you know, um, it's not your training to understand all of those different

[00:16:45] medications.

[00:16:46] And I, and I know this is a touchy subject and I even thought about this as I was preparing

[00:16:51] for this and like, I'm probably going to make someone upset by saying this, but what I just

[00:16:55] think is so important in this is again, just to handle these things with sensitivity.

[00:16:59] If someone is on medication, it's really between them and their doctor.

[00:17:03] And we have to just be so careful with that because people, you know, they're because of

[00:17:09] the power dynamic that's just inherent in the fact, um, that someone's a pastor or a ministry

[00:17:14] leader, then people, a lot of times can hear that message, um, from you.

[00:17:19] If you were to say something to them about like, why are you on medication?

[00:17:21] Or you don't need that.

[00:17:22] Or you just need to pray more, right?

[00:17:23] Those overly simplified answers to really big problems.

[00:17:27] And I think when someone, someone can, who's vulnerable can hear that.

[00:17:32] And I've heard of people stopping their medication and causing all kinds of chaos in their lives

[00:17:37] because they're, the medication was something that was helpful to provide some level of stability.

[00:17:43] There are some mental illnesses.

[00:17:45] I'm telling you now, there are some mental illnesses where people really have to be on

[00:17:49] medication because that's what's providing stability for their lives.

[00:17:53] And we don't always know all of the ins and outs of that.

[00:17:56] And so that's where I just want to encourage people to just be sensitive and to be cautious,

[00:18:01] you know, about, um, about saying things and messages that may somehow bring or cause confusion

[00:18:08] to people in these areas.

[00:18:10] Another thing I think is really important is being a safe person, right?

[00:18:14] How can we, why is it important to be a safe person?

[00:18:17] I think when I say safe person, then what I'm thinking of is, is that someone can come to

[00:18:21] you and say, Hey, when you said this, I was really confused.

[00:18:24] Did you mean this?

[00:18:25] Or did you mean that?

[00:18:26] I think it's so important that we are safe enough people where someone can come and ask

[00:18:30] those things.

[00:18:31] We're coming and someone can come and say to us, I'm really struggling with something

[00:18:35] that you said, or I'm just really struggling.

[00:18:36] It has nothing to do with something that you said.

[00:18:39] And so when I look at, um, like a description of a safe person, right?

[00:18:43] I hope that this is helpful.

[00:18:44] It's from the book called safe people, um, by Dr. Cloud and Townsend.

[00:18:48] And so it was written some years back, but I, this book has been very, very instrumental

[00:18:52] in a lot of people's lives that I, that I know of and have even counseled with.

[00:18:57] So, um, they describe a safe person as having three characteristics.

[00:19:00] They dwell with you.

[00:19:02] That means they're present with you.

[00:19:04] They put down their phone and they're actually looking you eye to eye and they're willing

[00:19:08] to sit with you and spend time with you.

[00:19:10] So they dwell with you.

[00:19:12] They offer grace to you, unconditional love, acceptance, no condemnation.

[00:19:18] You know, you are accepted just as you are.

[00:19:20] You're not shamed.

[00:19:22] And the third thing is they tell the truth.

[00:19:24] They're honest and real with you.

[00:19:26] Those are really some of the key things that make up being a safe person.

[00:19:30] And if you think about those characteristics, I think the person I think of, of course,

[00:19:33] is the most safe person.

[00:19:34] It's Jesus, right?

[00:19:35] And he did this perfectly.

[00:19:37] He was perfectly safe with people.

[00:19:40] And so we're going to do this imperfectly.

[00:19:42] None of us do this perfectly well.

[00:19:44] However, I think we can pray and work toward being more of a safe person.

[00:19:50] And if you know any of these areas, I'm not good at that.

[00:19:52] I'm not good at that.

[00:19:53] My encouragement to you is to pray because the Lord can make you better at that because

[00:19:57] he has been all of these things to you, right?

[00:20:01] So being a safe person, I think is so, so important.

[00:20:05] And lastly, I really think we need to make sure that we're taking care of our own mental

[00:20:10] health.

[00:20:10] I think sometimes we think that mental health issues are outside of me.

[00:20:15] Oh, that's someone else.

[00:20:16] That's a crazy person, right?

[00:20:18] And just misunderstood, you know, really ignorant statements like that.

[00:20:22] But that's really not the case.

[00:20:24] All of us have some level of mental health, meaning we're either doing pretty well or we

[00:20:29] may be struggling.

[00:20:29] It may be a mental illness or it may just be we're struggling with some emotional or mental

[00:20:33] issues, but not necessarily a diagnosable mental illness.

[00:20:37] But still taking care of yourself is so important.

[00:20:41] Understanding your story is important, where you came from, what your struggles are, what

[00:20:45] things that you're sensitive to, where you have been hurt, right?

[00:20:50] All those things and also seeking out healing in whatever way that's going to look for you.

[00:20:55] I just think it's so important for you to be taking care of yourself as well, to take

[00:20:59] a break if you need one, all of those things, right?

[00:21:02] And I know we're talking and really thank God I hear more and more talk about these things

[00:21:07] nowadays in ministry circles and for leaders and so forth.

[00:21:10] And I just think it's really important because the truth of the matter is if we're unaware

[00:21:14] of where we have come from or our stories, if we've never worked through any of the things

[00:21:18] that have happened to us, if we've never sought out any healing for ourselves, we are definitely

[00:21:23] going to hurt other people.

[00:21:25] And with the positions that we have as ministry leaders, it's so important that we take that

[00:21:31] responsibility for ourselves, right?

[00:21:34] And seek out the Lord for the healing, for whatever it is that we need so that we can

[00:21:41] better and more healthy way be there for other people.

[00:21:44] So thanks for listening.

[00:21:48] Well, hey, before we jump into our interview, I wanted to set this up by letting you know

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[00:22:38] Now, in this interview that you're about to listen on this podcast, she's going to go

[00:22:41] for about a half an hour on mental health.

[00:22:43] But the first half of this podcast and this interview, we actually talk all about church

[00:22:49] planning, especially from a woman's side as her and her husband, Will Torres, planted

[00:22:53] Proclaim Church in Boynton Beach.

[00:22:55] And now they're in Lantana.

[00:22:57] And it's been such a blessing to get to know her, to glean from her wisdom.

[00:23:00] I have my last interview from Eddie Copeland.

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[00:23:43] We're coming in on the end of season six and continuing to gather more content for another

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[00:23:56] The other half, it's about an hour full long interview, is on church planning.

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[00:24:07] all the interviews from all the people that I've posted so far.

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[00:24:15] And so again, here's Kristen Torres as we dive deeper into the subject of mental health.

[00:24:24] Well, hey everyone.

[00:24:25] Welcome back to these Patreon interviews where we get church leaders with special topics,

[00:24:30] guests that specialize in certain things.

[00:24:32] And today I'm excited to talk to Kristen Torres.

[00:24:36] Welcome.

[00:24:37] Hey, glad to be here.

[00:24:38] Kristen Torres about mental health, about life.

[00:24:41] First off, what titles are you?

[00:24:44] How do you serve?

[00:24:45] Who are you?

[00:24:45] Give us just a little explanation of who you are and how you're serving Jesus.

[00:24:49] Sure.

[00:24:49] So I'm a licensed mental health counselor.

[00:24:53] Yeah.

[00:24:54] I'm a qualified supervisor.

[00:24:55] That means I train other therapists that are pursuing their license.

[00:24:59] And then I'm also EMDR trained as well.

[00:25:02] So EMDR is specific to trauma.

[00:25:06] It's for treatment for trauma.

[00:25:08] Eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing.

[00:25:11] With COVID, what has ended up happening is the topic of mental health.

[00:25:17] And I want to talk and think about that.

[00:25:19] But it's really brought into the forefront of people's mind because a lot of people struggled

[00:25:23] with that.

[00:25:25] And so...

[00:25:26] Let's say talk about the isolation.

[00:25:27] Yeah.

[00:25:27] Honestly, that was one of the first things.

[00:25:29] And I think anyone that was already, let's say all the single people or people living alone,

[00:25:34] like there was so much isolation and it just highlighted it, you know, during COVID.

[00:25:39] Sorry, I interrupted.

[00:25:39] No, it's crazy.

[00:25:41] How have you seen in your field of mental health, a mental health therapist and counselor,

[00:25:47] how have you seen that grow?

[00:25:49] And what are the statistics now post-COVID?

[00:25:52] Is there any difference, a pre-COVID and post-COVID world with the issue of mental health

[00:25:57] and mental illness?

[00:25:58] Oh yeah, it's increased.

[00:26:00] Absolutely increased.

[00:26:01] Whatever was kind of going on before COVID happened, I feel like it just blew it off,

[00:26:06] blew the lid off the top.

[00:26:07] It just boiled over, you know, because there was so much increased pressure, I think, and

[00:26:12] anxiety and stress and so much unknown, you know, that was going on.

[00:26:17] All of us were just trying to figure it out.

[00:26:19] Yeah.

[00:26:19] So again, I think any mental health issues that were already simmering, even domestic violence

[00:26:25] increased, like all those things, the statistics and all of the just unrest and unsettledness

[00:26:31] totally increased during COVID.

[00:26:33] And I think some of it has stayed even higher because there's just so many stressors happening.

[00:26:38] Some people, you know, I have spoken with some people, heard from some people that there

[00:26:43] was, they ended up feeling, you know, closer together as a family.

[00:26:47] And there was almost like an opportunity because everything was shut down, right?

[00:26:50] To just pull in and like have more family time and so forth.

[00:26:52] So that's cool.

[00:26:53] Some people ended up flourishing, you know, during it.

[00:26:56] So it wasn't everyone that experienced an increase in mental health issues and so forth.

[00:27:01] But I think for a good number of people, it did.

[00:27:03] But clients that I had during that time honestly stayed on longer in therapy.

[00:27:07] I think that they probably would have had COVID not happened.

[00:27:10] But I understand that because it was a consistent, predictable face on the other side of the screen

[00:27:17] because I saw all my clients online for two years.

[00:27:21] I didn't go back until March last year.

[00:27:24] I think it was.

[00:27:25] So March 2022.

[00:27:28] So two years online and it was predictable face that you can like, okay, this is at least I can trust

[00:27:32] because everything else is moving a moving target.

[00:27:35] Yeah.

[00:27:35] Like lockdown, don't lockdown and out.

[00:27:38] This is open, not open.

[00:27:39] All the things.

[00:27:39] Yeah, all the things.

[00:27:40] Yeah, all the things.

[00:27:40] It was so unpredictable.

[00:27:41] So anyways.

[00:27:43] Yeah.

[00:27:43] So, oh yeah, there's so much going on still.

[00:27:46] A lot of us therapists now have wait lists, which we may not have before.

[00:27:49] We keep going and getting into situations where we have wait lists because we can't take everyone in.

[00:27:54] And I've written about this and talked about this before.

[00:27:56] That's not an ideal situation because I know if someone is finally at the point of reaching out to get help

[00:28:01] and to put them on a wait list is not what I want to do.

[00:28:05] So we try as much as we can to refer.

[00:28:08] But I also understand, especially for therapy, that sometimes when you get a referral of someone's name,

[00:28:12] you want to see that person.

[00:28:14] Yeah.

[00:28:14] You know, so I get that too.

[00:28:16] So basically our world has changed.

[00:28:19] People even describe as an epidemic.

[00:28:21] Yeah.

[00:28:22] But practically, how has your church ministered to people and dealt with this issue?

[00:28:30] So maybe we'll start with you practically and what you and the church has done.

[00:28:36] Maybe it will claim or even us together.

[00:28:38] And then go into maybe some advice and counsel of what are some good things that we can help pastors and church leaders to deal with it.

[00:28:46] So first, just for you, like how have you addressed this?

[00:28:50] How have you dealt with this in a ministry sense?

[00:28:53] Maybe not licensed therapist sense, but like at the church.

[00:28:56] Like what are some things that you've done to try to help people going through all of this mental stuff, right?

[00:29:03] Well, and I think so that when I go back to thinking about when we were in lockdown back in March 2020 because of COVID and everyone is online.

[00:29:13] That's where, again, that increasing like the connection points.

[00:29:18] So increasing of the prayer nights or the community group nights, whatever you want to call it, even if it was online.

[00:29:24] You do what you could, right?

[00:29:25] To make sure that everyone felt connected, that we can talk about how.

[00:29:28] So we even talked about like, how's everyone doing?

[00:29:31] Does anyone need anything?

[00:29:32] Yeah.

[00:29:32] So increase of very tangible support.

[00:29:35] We did do several, I think marriage or at least one marriage Bible study.

[00:29:39] So because we knew people were struggling in their relationships as well, because again, there's just a pressure points of all this, all the kids home, all the craziness bringing a lot of stuff out.

[00:29:48] So we increased a lot of that support and we're very direct about it.

[00:29:52] You know, again, the checking in, we wouldn't necessarily, because it was a crisis mode in a way, right?

[00:29:58] So you wouldn't necessarily ask, is everybody okay?

[00:30:01] Does anyone need anything?

[00:30:02] That's not always the approach we're going to take maybe now.

[00:30:05] But during that time it was, right?

[00:30:07] Does anyone need toilet paper?

[00:30:08] Yeah.

[00:30:08] I mean, that's where we were at, right?

[00:30:10] Uh-huh.

[00:30:10] So yeah.

[00:30:12] And then we did, we did some different food.

[00:30:15] We knew there were food issues going on, of course, because of all of the, just so much was happening at that time.

[00:30:21] So when I say that, I'm talking about food insecurity, right?

[00:30:25] So we would see on the news, like people lining.

[00:30:28] I remember seeing this, like, you know, on the news, they were reporting about people getting into multiple car lines, like waiting for hours to get food on like Saturdays or whatever days.

[00:30:37] And so they would go from one place to another to another.

[00:30:40] And so we did a, you know, small little church plant.

[00:30:42] We did a few little food drives, tried to see what we could do to help.

[00:30:46] You know, even during that time, we even did this campaign where we did like a, what were the checks called they sent out?

[00:30:53] Do you remember what they were called?

[00:30:54] Stimulus.

[00:30:55] Yeah, stimulus.

[00:30:55] Yeah.

[00:30:56] So we did a church like stimulus check.

[00:30:58] So we gave $50, a $50 check to every person in our little church.

[00:31:01] Again, small church plant, right?

[00:31:02] We could do this.

[00:31:03] And so it was so cool because then everyone had a story of what they did with that $50 to help or to give it to someone and buy food for someone.

[00:31:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:31:11] It was so cool.

[00:31:12] So it was things like that just to try to be a help, right?

[00:31:15] Because there was a lot of need and so much going on.

[00:31:18] So that was really encouraging.

[00:31:19] People had a lot of stories from that.

[00:31:21] So yeah, those are some of the things that we did then.

[00:31:24] And I think presently now, it's a little bit, I think that Will and I already have sensitivity about mental health.

[00:31:34] So that's kind of our hearts anyways.

[00:31:36] Yeah.

[00:31:36] So it's in what we say or what we do.

[00:31:39] It's in there already.

[00:31:40] And I would say, I hope and pray.

[00:31:43] When we talk in Bible studies and all of those things, we're checking in on how people are doing.

[00:31:48] We encourage therapy.

[00:31:49] We refer people for therapy.

[00:31:51] We have no problem with any of that.

[00:31:53] I think awareness is actually crucial and key.

[00:31:56] Yeah.

[00:31:57] Bringing topics up or bringing the issue up before it's crisis mode.

[00:32:01] Oh, yeah.

[00:32:01] So I'm really glad.

[00:32:02] When you guys did your church residency, one thing that I saw your gifting in was speaking in front of people, teaching, and then also that passion about mental health.

[00:32:11] Obviously, you're a licensed therapist.

[00:32:13] Those type of things.

[00:32:14] So we started doing these events called God and Whatever.

[00:32:18] Right.

[00:32:18] So, I mean, pretty intense.

[00:32:20] Like God and suicide.

[00:32:22] God and anxiety.

[00:32:24] God and fear.

[00:32:25] God and depression.

[00:32:26] Yep.

[00:32:26] And just bringing up the subject.

[00:32:28] And I had so many people before COVID even say, man, I love that you guys are bringing up these real issues.

[00:32:36] And as we just made these things aware of what God says, more people felt comfortable to bring it up.

[00:32:42] Yes.

[00:32:43] How have you seen the vulnerability of just talking about mental illness, talking about medication, or seeing a therapist rather than just being like, hey, go to a prayer meeting and just talk?

[00:32:52] Yeah.

[00:32:53] How have you seen that actually help and benefit people in your church and in the culture that you're ministering in?

[00:32:59] I think that it's, again, just breaking down that stigma, right?

[00:33:03] Like those talks, I'm so grateful that you guys were, you know, that we did all those things, right?

[00:33:08] Yeah.

[00:33:09] And we continue at times.

[00:33:10] Not as frequently, probably.

[00:33:11] I'm not available as much.

[00:33:12] I know that.

[00:33:13] Right?

[00:33:14] That's the reality.

[00:33:15] It's a new life now.

[00:33:16] But, yeah, I think those talks were really, really cool because it was an opportunity to talk through this.

[00:33:22] There remains a stigma about mental health, not only in church, but also, you know, out in society.

[00:33:28] There still is some level of stigma for sure.

[00:33:30] And so continuing to have these conversations and normalizing the fact that, like I say a lot, life is hard.

[00:33:37] These things are hard and wrestling through these things.

[00:33:39] And it's okay to question.

[00:33:40] And it's okay to struggle and know that you're not alone and you're not a weird person.

[00:33:46] Yeah.

[00:33:46] You know, right?

[00:33:47] Like it's okay.

[00:33:48] And there is help out there.

[00:33:51] And so I think it has been positive because it's normalized having, again, having these conversations.

[00:33:59] And who else should be having them but the people who actually know what the truth is, know the gospel, know Jesus, right?

[00:34:07] Yeah.

[00:34:07] And know that he is there in all of these struggles that we have and wants to walk us through, wants to bring healing.

[00:34:14] Yeah.

[00:34:15] So put on your Christian counselor hat.

[00:34:18] Sure.

[00:34:19] Okay.

[00:34:20] A couple of definitions.

[00:34:21] What is the difference between mental health and mental illness?

[00:34:26] Yeah.

[00:34:26] So mental health is, I think, as how you are doing emotionally and mentally.

[00:34:30] Right?

[00:34:31] So that's mental health.

[00:34:33] Everyone has some level of mental health.

[00:34:35] And it varies at times in our lives depending upon what we're going through.

[00:34:39] The circumstances outside, there's circumstances inside, and also what we've been through, right?

[00:34:43] The stories and the things that we are carrying.

[00:34:46] Yeah.

[00:34:46] And so there's that part of it.

[00:34:48] The mental illness.

[00:34:49] I mean, there are diagnoses.

[00:34:51] There's a whole lot of diagnosable mental illnesses.

[00:34:55] The reason for diagnosis is a lot.

[00:34:58] It's really insurance, honestly, is a big reason I think that probably even came up.

[00:35:05] There's so that things can be billed properly and so forth.

[00:35:09] However, it also helps with the treatment of these illnesses.

[00:35:14] So if we know we are seeing someone that has these specific symptoms for this length of time that's affecting their normal daily functioning, then they likely have whatever the diagnosis is.

[00:35:26] And then we have a good amount of research on how best to treat them.

[00:35:31] So it's not just insurance.

[00:35:34] There's that part of it.

[00:35:36] But it also helps with how can we best help someone, right?

[00:35:40] Yeah.

[00:35:40] So that's the psychology, psychiatry view of the diagnosing.

[00:35:46] Listen, I'm not trying to diagnose everyone that comes in to see me.

[00:35:50] Yeah.

[00:35:51] I don't think that everyone has a diagnosis.

[00:35:53] However, some people clearly have a diagnosis.

[00:35:56] And it actually, because I know there's some resistance about the diagnosing thing, right?

[00:36:00] As far as, you know, there can be as Christians like, oh my gosh, that's giving someone a label and all these things.

[00:36:06] However, for some people to actually say, no, you have obsessive compulsive disorder is actually freeing for them because they finally have an explanation for something they've been struggling with.

[00:36:18] So I think there's a place for it.

[00:36:22] And yeah, and again, it just sometimes can provide a whole lot of freedom because now they understand.

[00:36:26] And now we know how to treat that.

[00:36:29] So let's talk about the place for treatment and medication.

[00:36:33] Sure.

[00:36:33] As a Christian counselor, why is medication so important?

[00:36:36] Why can't you just tell someone, hey, pray on it?

[00:36:39] Yeah.

[00:36:39] So, well, here's the thing.

[00:36:41] So I don't prescribe medication, right?

[00:36:43] So I'm not a doctor.

[00:36:44] I'm not a psychiatrist.

[00:36:45] So psychiatry is, they are medical doctors that prescribe, you know, psychotropic medications, antidepressant medications, antipsychotic, anti-anxiety, and so forth.

[00:36:56] Those are the medications they really specialize in.

[00:36:58] Okay.

[00:36:58] And so then we have the psychology part of it.

[00:37:01] And that's not going to be the medication.

[00:37:03] That's the thinking.

[00:37:03] But we can, that's the thinking and the feeling and processing and all those things.

[00:37:07] Yeah.

[00:37:07] We can work though hand in hand.

[00:37:09] So I definitely do refer some of my clients for, to see a psychiatrist.

[00:37:13] It particularly, when we're talking about someone that is in crisis, that I see them declining and it's becoming a potential safety issue.

[00:37:23] Let me tell you, we're going to pull out the biggest guns we have.

[00:37:26] And some of the biggest guns we have, I hope that's an okay terminology.

[00:37:29] We want to pull out the biggest weapons we have.

[00:37:31] Yeah.

[00:37:31] And to battle what they're going through.

[00:37:33] And some of that is medication.

[00:37:35] So they need to see a doctor.

[00:37:36] I'm going to definitely tell them to go see a doctor because we need to stabilize that person.

[00:37:41] Yeah.

[00:37:41] And if this is helpful at all, the way in which I describe like antidepressant medication, it's like a lifesaver.

[00:37:46] Or someone who's depressed, let's say, is flailing around in the water, struggling.

[00:37:51] Like they can't find a balance.

[00:37:53] They're drowning in this.

[00:37:55] We throw them like an antidepressant medication.

[00:37:57] It's a lifesaver.

[00:37:59] So what it does is it can provide stabilization for them.

[00:38:02] So then they're able to see, oh, there's a boat over there.

[00:38:06] It's not that far.

[00:38:07] Oh, the shore's over there.

[00:38:09] There's people over there that can help me that they couldn't see before because they were just flailing around in the water.

[00:38:14] Yeah, that's how I describe like antidepressant medications.

[00:38:18] So listen, I know lots of the stories.

[00:38:21] For some people, this hasn't worked.

[00:38:23] For some people, it's been a terrible experience.

[00:38:24] For other people, it has been a lifesaver.

[00:38:26] But we don't know until someone walks down that path.

[00:38:30] That's not for everyone.

[00:38:31] Not everyone's going to go toward that.

[00:38:33] I also refer people over to more, let's say, non-medication supplement route, like doctors that are going to do that or other types of therapy.

[00:38:40] So that isn't everyone.

[00:38:41] But when we're talking about someone who is declining and it's becoming a potential safety issue where suicidal thoughts and so forth, we need to help them be as safe as they can be.

[00:38:51] And so we want to do whatever we got to do.

[00:38:53] Yeah.

[00:38:54] That's what I would say.

[00:38:55] No, that's good.

[00:38:55] I think pastorally or thinking as a pastor, you know, we need to be okay with like, hey, you take a pill for your heart.

[00:39:03] Why don't you take a pill for your mind?

[00:39:04] Yeah.

[00:39:05] Because we know theologically we live in a broken, sinful world.

[00:39:08] Yes.

[00:39:09] So our bodies sometimes do have chemical imbalances that affect the way that we think.

[00:39:13] Obviously, we're to renew our mind.

[00:39:15] We think in a sinful nature and that affects everything.

[00:39:18] And that's why we're so important about the passion of the word of God.

[00:39:20] Yes.

[00:39:21] But there's also times too where just as if you had a broken arm, you needed to get it properly addressed.

[00:39:29] Sometimes people have broken minds.

[00:39:31] Yeah.

[00:39:31] And that's actually a part of the sin nature as well.

[00:39:33] Yeah.

[00:39:33] And so if you really have a bipolar disorder, unless God does a miraculous miracle.

[00:39:39] Right.

[00:39:40] Which can happen.

[00:39:41] Which does happen and can happen unless that happens.

[00:39:44] There are also ways in which we're able to treat that in a very natural by the means of God's grace.

[00:39:51] Yeah.

[00:39:51] And he's given us medication.

[00:39:53] Right.

[00:39:53] So a lot of people struggle with that idea or even Christians, hey, medication or even simply counseling or therapy.

[00:40:00] Yeah.

[00:40:00] I think they all should be tried and tested and see what the Lord and by his grace would have that person go through.

[00:40:08] And that's why it's a sticky situation because you have to actually have individual care for individuals.

[00:40:14] Yeah, exactly.

[00:40:15] That's so true.

[00:40:16] Right.

[00:40:16] Well, and if you think about it too, if someone is stabilized and they're no longer flailing around, then we're going to be able to address the thinking issues.

[00:40:25] The fact that they're not, you know, like no wonder they're dealing with some of this because they're not renewing their mind.

[00:40:31] And look where their thinking is and all those things.

[00:40:33] We're able to deal with all of that.

[00:40:34] But we need stabilization first.

[00:40:36] If someone comes in to see me and is totally unstable, we've got to stabilize them first.

[00:40:41] We don't start saying, what are you thinking about?

[00:40:44] You know, like what, you know, are you reading the Bible?

[00:40:47] I'm not going to probably go there first.

[00:40:49] We need to get them stabilized.

[00:40:50] Yeah.

[00:40:51] You know, just like someone, like you said, that has a broken arm, we're not going to say like, yeah, but what vitamins have you been taking?

[00:40:56] No.

[00:40:56] We need to fix the problem.

[00:40:59] Big problem first.

[00:41:00] Please address what the issue is.

[00:41:01] And so that's where, that's why I try to caution that please don't oversimplify human issue.

[00:41:08] Like these are not, these are not simple issues and we don't know everyone's story.

[00:41:12] Yeah.

[00:41:13] You know, we don't.

[00:41:13] Oh my gosh.

[00:41:14] Well, when it comes to mental health, like a broken arm is a physical thing that you see, okay, I need to get help.

[00:41:19] Right.

[00:41:20] But when it comes to mental health, it's an invisible thing.

[00:41:23] Right.

[00:41:23] You said emotional and, you know, mental type of state.

[00:41:27] So what ends up happening is people going through a lot of mental health issues.

[00:41:32] They come to pastors as counselors.

[00:41:34] Yeah.

[00:41:35] Just like you.

[00:41:35] Sure.

[00:41:36] You help them and listen and talk and stuff.

[00:41:38] But there's also different ways to deal with different problems.

[00:41:41] Yes.

[00:41:41] And so what advice would you give to us as church leaders, whether it be a pastor, counselor, or just even a friend?

[00:41:47] Like, how do we deal with the stuff that's going on in people's hearts?

[00:41:50] And do we actually like, what are some things we should say, should not say?

[00:41:55] Or as people are coming to us to get counsel, like what wisdom would you have as someone who does this all the time and is in ministry, has a heart, knows the word, teaches Bible study, loves Jesus.

[00:42:06] Yeah.

[00:42:07] But what wisdom do you have for us when people come with all of these mental health issues?

[00:42:12] I think the first thing is, and why a lot of people end up on therapist couches is because the people around them have forgotten to just be human.

[00:42:21] Just sit with someone and be human with them first before you start in with like, well, you know, the authoritative, right?

[00:42:29] Like, you know, and I think sometimes we go that direction of like preaching at someone first because it feels a little safer.

[00:42:36] Like, well, at least I can do this.

[00:42:37] You know, I got this to do.

[00:42:38] I'm not sure what to do.

[00:42:39] But just be human with them first.

[00:42:41] Because for a lot of things, that's all someone needs.

[00:42:45] Because then they feel connected and much less alone.

[00:42:48] For you just to sit with them and say, like, I'm here.

[00:42:52] Like, that sounds so hard and so painful.

[00:42:55] Just start there.

[00:42:56] Yeah.

[00:42:56] So literally just listening and being there present.

[00:43:00] Rather than just trying to, a quick fix, say stuff.

[00:43:03] Like, be slow to listen.

[00:43:05] Yes.

[00:43:06] Imagine that, right?

[00:43:06] Yeah, slow to speak, quick to listen.

[00:43:08] Yes.

[00:43:09] Okay?

[00:43:09] Yes, exactly.

[00:43:10] Be human first.

[00:43:12] So much of it's there.

[00:43:13] And I think even, and that's why it's so important too.

[00:43:15] Like, I'll do this in poor Will.

[00:43:17] My poor husband has a lot of pressure on him from me because I'm listening to his sermons and I'll, and sometimes I'm just like holding my breath when he'll say something.

[00:43:23] I'm like, please, please, please, like just add in and like, listen, but I hear you.

[00:43:28] I'm with you.

[00:43:28] I know this is hard.

[00:43:30] I know for some of you that like, that connection point is so important.

[00:43:35] I think for pastors to make those connection points of just saying like, I'm, I'm human too.

[00:43:40] I'm with you.

[00:43:40] I know this is hard.

[00:43:41] All those types of things that can be so healing.

[00:43:45] So like having empathy.

[00:43:46] Oh yes, absolutely.

[00:43:48] Yeah.

[00:43:48] And even from not the one-on-one because you're not always going to get the one-on-one time with everyone.

[00:43:52] Right.

[00:43:53] So sometimes it's going to be from the front.

[00:43:55] Like it's, it's tremendously important.

[00:43:57] And I have had clients confirm back to me that would have been so helpful if my pastor had done that.

[00:44:03] Yeah.

[00:44:03] Just been like empathetic from the front because you can do that.

[00:44:07] So what does that look like from, from your experience from the front?

[00:44:10] So say I'm preaching, do a pause and say what, what do I do?

[00:44:14] When you know, you have said something that can be taken, like you've been hard or you've said something in a way or something that can be taken a lot of different ways.

[00:44:23] It's just having the empathy that the thought in the back of your head.

[00:44:26] But I bet there's people sitting here that really have a hard time with this, you know, with this topic or this verse or something.

[00:44:33] And not because it's not true and not because it's not the ultimate wisdom, because it is the word.

[00:44:37] There's nothing that compares to the word of God.

[00:44:38] We know this.

[00:44:39] Yeah.

[00:44:39] But there's people that may be struggling, you know, or having a or just need to hear like, hey, I see you today.

[00:44:48] And most importantly, Jesus sees you and he knows and being reminded of the fact that he's long suffering with us.

[00:44:54] Like, I think that's so I reference it a lot because I've been ministered knowing that the Lord is long suffering with us.

[00:45:01] So just those pauses and awareness of like, you know, people are potentially hurting or struggling with what I may be saying or with what we're talking about or this topic of forgiveness or any of those things.

[00:45:12] There's people that are sitting out there that have had atrocities happen to them by other people.

[00:45:17] And so we can talk about forgiveness.

[00:45:18] And yes, it's important.

[00:45:19] And yes, I believe in it.

[00:45:20] And we're instructed to do it.

[00:45:22] But for certain things, the only way, well, actually, for most all forgiveness, right?

[00:45:27] The only way we can do that is because of the Holy Spirit.

[00:45:29] That's the Lord forgiving through us.

[00:45:31] There's certain things I don't know how people forgive, you know, without the power of the Holy Spirit.

[00:45:36] And so just even acknowledging that there may be some of you sitting here today that maybe say, like, how can I ever forgive this person or this person that's harmed a loved one?

[00:45:45] Right.

[00:45:45] Like those are some really deep things.

[00:45:47] Yeah.

[00:45:47] And so just acknowledging the fact that there's nuance to this.

[00:45:50] This may be very hard.

[00:45:52] That's good.

[00:45:53] Yeah.

[00:45:53] What about like, so those are some positive ways.

[00:45:57] What about like some negative examples as well?

[00:46:00] Because I think, like, I think about the King's Judges.

[00:46:03] There wasn't like a lot of good Kings.

[00:46:05] Yeah.

[00:46:05] But it's in Scripture.

[00:46:06] So you'd be like, oh, that's not good.

[00:46:08] Yeah, don't do that.

[00:46:09] What are some things that you would say don't do in a situation?

[00:46:13] Maybe some pet peeves that you have that are some wounds that you've come across where people have been hurt because, you know, we haven't been slow to listen.

[00:46:25] We dehumanize the situation.

[00:46:27] Yeah.

[00:46:27] Over.

[00:46:28] And over spiritualize.

[00:46:30] Over spiritualize.

[00:46:31] Whatever may be.

[00:46:31] So like, what are some things that we shouldn't do if someone comes and says, man, I'm struggling?

[00:46:36] And what are some nightmare stories or some things that like we can learn from not to do?

[00:46:40] Yeah.

[00:46:41] Well, over spiritualizing is probably a good one right there.

[00:46:43] Right.

[00:46:43] When someone's telling you about the hard time that they're having, don't, don't.

[00:46:48] What does over spiritualizing look like?

[00:46:50] Try not to have your automatic thing be.

[00:46:52] Well, here's what I would say.

[00:46:54] This is not always easy to parse out.

[00:46:56] There's something like everything has a level of spiritual component to it.

[00:47:01] But at the same time, some things are more just a cold.

[00:47:07] Yeah.

[00:47:07] Some things are just like, this is what we have to deal with.

[00:47:10] You know, that kind of a thing.

[00:47:11] And so the over spiritualizing is automatically, I think how that looks is.

[00:47:17] Again, it's kind of the throwing verses at people.

[00:47:19] Okay.

[00:47:20] You know, before being human with them, you know, it's that kind of a thing.

[00:47:24] Yeah.

[00:47:24] I think it's how that ends up looking.

[00:47:25] And that can be so hurtful because you may have someone that like, yeah, they seemed great

[00:47:29] after I spoke with them.

[00:47:30] Yeah.

[00:47:30] Because what they realize is they're not going to talk with you again.

[00:47:34] That's what happened.

[00:47:35] Yeah.

[00:47:36] They shut up, you know, because there is a power component, whether we like it or not,

[00:47:39] you know, as far as having a pastor role.

[00:47:41] I mean, yours, what you were perceived as, what a pastor's, you know, can be perceived

[00:47:45] as a spokesperson for God.

[00:47:47] It's a lot of power in that.

[00:47:49] And that's why I think we have to be so sensitive and careful because people run, can really

[00:47:54] run with that have been very, at times, very injured and hurt by that.

[00:47:58] Right.

[00:47:59] Especially when we aren't sensitive to them, to people and the human issues.

[00:48:06] So do you mean by, yeah, like, so basically saying like Romans 8, 20, well, God's going

[00:48:09] to work it out, brother, for your good.

[00:48:11] Right.

[00:48:11] Rather than being like, I'm just so sorry.

[00:48:14] Yes.

[00:48:15] Yes.

[00:48:15] Exactly.

[00:48:16] Yeah.

[00:48:16] Just be human.

[00:48:17] Yeah.

[00:48:17] And I get that because I'm a man.

[00:48:19] So I want the quick fix.

[00:48:21] Yeah.

[00:48:21] I want to fix things.

[00:48:22] Well, we all want that though.

[00:48:23] Yeah.

[00:48:23] And we want to say something to people that's going to be a quick fix and easy.

[00:48:26] We just want to have something to say because a lot of times it's more uncomfortable for

[00:48:29] us than even them.

[00:48:31] We're like, oh my gosh, what am I supposed to do with this?

[00:48:33] This is like a mess.

[00:48:33] This is horrible, painful disaster.

[00:48:35] What the heck am I going to say to this person?

[00:48:36] Yeah.

[00:48:37] How about just this really sucks?

[00:48:39] Like, it's okay.

[00:48:40] Yeah.

[00:48:40] This sucks.

[00:48:41] I couldn't imagine.

[00:48:42] So we don't want to over spiritualize it.

[00:48:44] Anything else that maybe you've seen?

[00:48:46] So, yeah.

[00:48:47] I think the, I have all the answers.

[00:48:50] Oh, you just need prayer.

[00:48:52] Oh, I'm going to fix this.

[00:48:53] Like I have definitely, unfortunately had clients where they have been a part of ministry,

[00:49:01] gone somewhere or been a part of a ministry or something where someone has, you know, kind

[00:49:05] of spoken things over them that I don't know that were really, I don't think from

[00:49:09] the Lord.

[00:49:09] Yeah.

[00:49:10] And someone who is vulnerable, hurting potential mental illness stuff going on already, they

[00:49:15] are vulnerable.

[00:49:16] Like I said, right?

[00:49:17] They are vulnerable.

[00:49:18] And so when you come in and start saying things like, oh, well, this is probably a demonic

[00:49:23] influence.

[00:49:24] So we need to just pray this out type thing.

[00:49:26] Don't get me wrong.

[00:49:27] There are times where that may be what's going on, but please, please use discernment.

[00:49:35] Yeah.

[00:49:36] We throw and wisdom when we throw things out like that, because I have, I have seen people

[00:49:40] very confused and harmed and will not return to those, those prayer meetings or those groups

[00:49:47] or those ministries because they are misunderstood and their mental illness is diminished.

[00:49:55] You know, like, yeah, right.

[00:49:56] It's not a demonic thing.

[00:49:58] Let me just pray for you.

[00:49:59] It's just been hurtful.

[00:50:01] Yeah.

[00:50:01] One thing.

[00:50:02] Think of what that's coming from, right?

[00:50:03] There's so much pride in that.

[00:50:05] Like, who am I to think I'm just going to, you know, come in and say something like that.

[00:50:10] Go ahead.

[00:50:10] I was going to say one thing I've seen that has damaged a lot of people is those that are

[00:50:15] taking medication feel good.

[00:50:18] Yeah.

[00:50:18] And then they come across and whether it be someone saying this or not, they think, okay,

[00:50:23] well, I feel good now.

[00:50:24] So I'm just going to stop taking medication without a doctor approved or they get a friend

[00:50:28] or a pastor being like, no, man, just pray.

[00:50:31] You're fine.

[00:50:31] Everything's great.

[00:50:32] They stop taking their medication.

[00:50:34] Everything goes downhill.

[00:50:36] And then they take their medication again.

[00:50:38] It gets better.

[00:50:38] Then by the time they get better, they're like, oh, I don't need my medication.

[00:50:41] And the people go through cycles of this because they feel guilty or wrong that they're taking

[00:50:47] a prescription drug for a chemical imbalance or whatever the diagnosis is that actually helps

[00:50:54] them.

[00:50:55] Right.

[00:50:56] Like what confidence could you give to someone who does struggle with that of like, do

[00:51:01] I have enough faith?

[00:51:03] Is there something wrong with me?

[00:51:04] Oh, yeah.

[00:51:05] Oh my gosh.

[00:51:06] And we talk a lot about it.

[00:51:08] I talk a lot about this in the counseling room, right?

[00:51:09] Yeah.

[00:51:09] Because people do feel that way.

[00:51:11] You know, like it's I don't have enough faith or that's the message that they have

[00:51:14] received.

[00:51:15] And it's so inaccurate.

[00:51:16] This has nothing to do with faith.

[00:51:18] This is we're in a fallen world.

[00:51:20] And so we're going to have stuff that we have to deal with an illness that's not going

[00:51:24] to be in heaven.

[00:51:25] This is why we're here.

[00:51:26] And it is God's grace that we do have medication.

[00:51:28] So I think with the whole medication thing, my encouragement to you is to listen, I'm not

[00:51:35] trying to be a jerk by saying this, but stay in your lane.

[00:51:38] Really?

[00:51:38] I even give the disclaimer that I am not a doctor.

[00:51:42] So I'll tell people like, listen, this is what I have heard or this is the knowledge that

[00:51:45] I have.

[00:51:46] However, I am not a doctor.

[00:51:48] I cannot give you instructions to how to decrease medication properly and so forth.

[00:51:53] So I refer them back to their doctor because the thing is, we don't know someone's chemistry.

[00:51:57] We don't know what could happen to them by them just stopping medication.

[00:52:01] And for some people that can cause a psychotic episode.

[00:52:04] I mean, it can cause things that are not good to happen.

[00:52:06] Yeah.

[00:52:07] You know, and so if they're just, that's my encouragement.

[00:52:11] So let's, let's be wise.

[00:52:12] Let's refer them back to their doctor about medication issues.

[00:52:15] Like, I don't, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[00:52:18] As therapists, we're supposed to, we don't, we're not supposed, something as ethical for

[00:52:22] us as we're not supposed to practice outside of our training.

[00:52:24] If we're not trained for something, we don't do that.

[00:52:26] And I don't know why that can't be the same even for like a pastor, right?

[00:52:30] Like, that's okay.

[00:52:31] That's honestly, that's your safety in a way.

[00:52:34] Your Lord is your safety.

[00:52:34] I know that.

[00:52:35] But I'm saying that's outside of my training.

[00:52:38] I'm not trained for this.

[00:52:40] Like, you know, I hear you about the medication stuff, but I don't want to tell you anything

[00:52:44] that could cause any problems.

[00:52:45] So when would you tell a pastor?

[00:52:48] Oh, of course.

[00:52:49] Because I think that this is coming quite common for a pastor to refer.

[00:52:54] Yeah.

[00:52:54] Right?

[00:52:55] Right?

[00:52:55] Yeah.

[00:52:55] To go to a psychiatrist or go to a mental health counselor or go to a marriage counselor.

[00:53:00] I don't think, I think at one point the pastor was told, you have to do everything.

[00:53:05] You have to teach the Bible.

[00:53:06] You have to be the janitor.

[00:53:07] Right.

[00:53:07] You have to be the expert on all these different things.

[00:53:09] And I think it's okay to say, man, like, I just, I'm not good at worship.

[00:53:12] So I'm going to let you do that.

[00:53:14] Right.

[00:53:14] Or I'm not good at this.

[00:53:15] This isn't my skill set.

[00:53:17] I don't know.

[00:53:18] Yeah.

[00:53:18] And I think in our pride, we want to say we know everything.

[00:53:21] Right.

[00:53:22] But we don't.

[00:53:23] We really don't.

[00:53:24] And how about, I don't want to hurt you?

[00:53:26] Yeah.

[00:53:26] Like, how about telling someone, I don't want to hurt you by telling you the wrong thing.

[00:53:31] I really want to encourage you to say, let's pray about this.

[00:53:33] Let's try to find, or whatever.

[00:53:35] Like, that's the truth.

[00:53:36] Because I don't want to hurt someone.

[00:53:38] You know?

[00:53:39] And that's the same thing when I'm sitting with someone.

[00:53:40] I don't want to hurt them either.

[00:53:41] So I'm going to say, like, I don't, I don't actually know.

[00:53:44] So when would you refer someone?

[00:53:46] Or would you, when would you tell me as a pastor to refer someone to someone like you?

[00:53:50] Right.

[00:53:51] Right.

[00:53:51] Right.

[00:53:52] Because I could listen.

[00:53:53] Yeah.

[00:53:53] And I can give scriptural truth.

[00:53:55] So I'm just like you.

[00:53:56] Right.

[00:53:56] So what's the difference between me counseling to be like, oh, I think that they probably

[00:54:02] should have a licensed therapist.

[00:54:05] Or I know therapy and counseling are different.

[00:54:08] Therapy is prescribing.

[00:54:09] No, no, no.

[00:54:10] It's the same.

[00:54:10] Yeah.

[00:54:11] Okay.

[00:54:11] No.

[00:54:11] Counseling, therapist is interchangeable.

[00:54:13] Okay.

[00:54:13] Yeah.

[00:54:16] What would I prefer?

[00:54:18] Yeah.

[00:54:18] So I would say when someone is, you see them stuck, there's repetitive patterns going on.

[00:54:25] There's seat, you're trying to help with them.

[00:54:27] You've been working counseling, talking with them, but there's, there's something you can't

[00:54:31] like, like we're stuck here and they're stuck.

[00:54:35] It's not necessarily that they are refusing or it's like some, they just have a sin issue.

[00:54:41] Yeah.

[00:54:42] You know, right.

[00:54:42] Right.

[00:54:42] We can go like that direction.

[00:54:44] Not necessarily.

[00:54:44] There could be something else going on that you can't figure out and it's not helping

[00:54:49] them.

[00:54:50] You need to refer.

[00:54:51] Yeah.

[00:54:51] When someone is potentially talking about safety issues, you know, like they're having

[00:54:55] some crazy thoughts, you know, if we're talking about immediate, like someone's in danger,

[00:55:00] then you, we do need to, the suicide hotlines there.

[00:55:03] 988 is that number that's now, that's the crisis line, you know, all over the U S.

[00:55:08] And so you can call that number.

[00:55:09] Even when you, you're with someone that's in crisis, it's not you, you can call for them.

[00:55:14] I'm here with Bob or whatever.

[00:55:16] And he listened, he's saying this is not, I'm very concerned for him.

[00:55:19] And you can put this via them on speaker.

[00:55:21] Like just again, don't do it.

[00:55:24] Yeah.

[00:55:24] 988 is that number.

[00:55:26] Not 911.

[00:55:27] That's, you know, that's, we know the same emergency line, but 988 is now the number across the U S and

[00:55:31] that connects you with a crisis counselor.

[00:55:33] And so that's excellent.

[00:55:34] That was a really big thing that they, that just happened in the last several years.

[00:55:38] So yeah, you're with someone and they're talking, they're saying some crazy stuff and

[00:55:43] they're talking about harm, you know, not feeling safe with themselves.

[00:55:46] They're going to harm themselves.

[00:55:47] They're going to harm someone else.

[00:55:48] Please get the authorities involved.

[00:55:50] It's true.

[00:55:51] We don't, you don't necessarily know the next steps of what's going to happen from there,

[00:55:54] but you don't want to like, I can handle this.

[00:55:57] Yeah.

[00:55:58] You don't know.

[00:55:59] And we don't know someone's background.

[00:56:00] We don't know the trauma they've been through that may be happening for them right now with

[00:56:04] flashbacks and all kinds of things that could be happening.

[00:56:06] So again, if you're stuck with someone, you, meaning there, there's repetitive path,

[00:56:13] there's patterns that are not breaking or changing.

[00:56:15] You're not sure what else to do or they're in danger.

[00:56:19] You need to get someone else involved or you need to refer.

[00:56:21] Okay.

[00:56:22] And probably start with a therapist who can then refer them to a psychiatrist.

[00:56:26] Like you don't have to refer to a psychiatrist.

[00:56:28] Yeah.

[00:56:28] Because usually the psychiatrist is going to want them to be seeing a therapist anyways.

[00:56:31] Okay.

[00:56:32] Yeah.

[00:56:32] And then what would be some tools for church leaders, whether it be like books, podcasts,

[00:56:38] websites, hotlines?

[00:56:40] What are some tools that we can sort of wrap our mind around and like have a good working

[00:56:47] resource for just understanding mental health and dealing with this crisis in our nation

[00:56:52] right now?

[00:56:53] Yeah.

[00:56:54] There's a, there's a really good book for trauma right now.

[00:56:59] And it just, Markin's, if you're listening, if you're watching this, Markin, your book is

[00:57:03] in my office.

[00:57:05] Okay.

[00:57:05] Shout out to Markin.

[00:57:06] Shout out to Markin.

[00:57:07] Thank you.

[00:57:07] That's so cool.

[00:57:08] I'm so proud of him.

[00:57:09] So there's a, there's another good book too.

[00:57:12] The one that I am more familiar with at this point.

[00:57:14] And so this is from Andi Colbert, Colbert, I think her last name is.

[00:57:19] And so it's called Try Softer.

[00:57:21] And so it is.

[00:57:22] Try Softer?

[00:57:22] Try Softer.

[00:57:23] Okay.

[00:57:23] And it's a play on the term try harder, right?

[00:57:26] Instead, try softer.

[00:57:27] And it's all about trauma.

[00:57:28] And so healing from trauma.

[00:57:30] And so what it's going to take someone through is a lot of the, the things that we do in the

[00:57:34] therapy room, especially with trauma.

[00:57:36] And so this can be for trauma or mental illness kind of things.

[00:57:38] I think it's a really good book.

[00:57:40] It's basically having compassion for yourself and your story and what you've been through

[00:57:44] and so forth.

[00:57:45] So it's a, it's a good book and she's a believer.

[00:57:47] She's a Christian therapist as well.

[00:57:49] And so it's been a helpful book for a lot of my clients as far as trauma goes.

[00:57:54] And so, you know, that's a, that's a good resource.

[00:57:58] I think that you could always give someone the crisis text line.

[00:58:02] So text line is the 741-741.

[00:58:05] You just text home to 741-741.

[00:58:07] Okay.

[00:58:08] And so they're automatically connected with a crisis counselor because for some people

[00:58:11] they're more comfortable on text.

[00:58:13] Right.

[00:58:14] So, I mean, that's, that is a good thing.

[00:58:15] And that's especially if someone's really struggling to have a resource like that.

[00:58:19] I mean, there's lots and lots of books.

[00:58:21] I think that honestly, a lot of what people are struggling is with boundaries.

[00:58:25] Okay.

[00:58:26] And so the, the literally the book called boundaries, it's the tried and true.

[00:58:30] I think it was written in the 1980s.

[00:58:32] However, this book has stood the test of time.

[00:58:34] So these are two Christian psychologists, Cloud and Townsend that wrote this book.

[00:58:37] Mm-hmm.

[00:58:38] And it's, it's a, it's a solid book.

[00:58:40] And they have boundaries of marriage, boundaries of teen.

[00:58:42] They have all kinds of boundaries books.

[00:58:43] But there's just, the boundaries book is a lot of what people need too.

[00:58:48] It's, it's, these are boundary issues, you know, that got all messed up.

[00:58:52] Yeah.

[00:58:52] No, that's good.

[00:58:53] Shout out to Mark and his books called Trauma Stories.

[00:58:56] Yes.

[00:58:57] Healing Through Your Vulnerabilities.

[00:58:58] Yeah.

[00:58:59] Yeah.

[00:59:00] Yeah.

[00:59:00] Real quick.

[00:59:00] Let's talk just a little bit about the tools that you do.

[00:59:03] Something very popular right now is, that you're specialized in is EMDR.

[00:59:10] Yes.

[00:59:11] EMDR.

[00:59:11] EMDR.

[00:59:12] Yeah.

[00:59:12] Yeah.

[00:59:12] A lot of people are dealing with this.

[00:59:14] They're seeing great impact in ministry.

[00:59:16] Marken does this.

[00:59:17] You do this.

[00:59:17] Can you explain what that is?

[00:59:19] So people are at least aware of it and why certain, like these tools actually help that

[00:59:25] maybe a pastor may not be trained in.

[00:59:28] Right.

[00:59:28] Right.

[00:59:29] Yeah.

[00:59:29] So, so EMDR therapy is, can be used for several different things.

[00:59:33] However, it's really most specific for trauma.

[00:59:36] And so what we do is we're stimulating, and this sounds a little more technical than it is,

[00:59:43] but we're, or scientific.

[00:59:45] We are simulating the left and the right side of the brain in order to work together to process

[00:59:50] traumas because traumas tend to be stuck in the right side of the brain and they're hard to

[00:59:54] access.

[00:59:54] When someone has been through a traumatic situation or multiple situations, a lot of times they may

[01:00:00] have the flashbacks, the sensations, the feelings of it, but they can't necessarily process

[01:00:05] through it.

[01:00:05] It's like they know intellectually, oh, that wasn't my fault.

[01:00:09] But then they're like, they feel entirely differently.

[01:00:12] Shame and all this, these things for maybe what has happened.

[01:00:15] And so when we utilize EMDR, we're getting both sides of the brain to work together to

[01:00:20] almost like catch up with one another.

[01:00:22] And so that at the end of that processing, they're able to see like, oh, that wasn't

[01:00:27] my fault.

[01:00:27] Like I didn't cause this, you know, or I was only a child or whatever the, you know, whatever

[01:00:31] the story is.

[01:00:32] So yeah, it's a really, really good therapy.

[01:00:35] And the cool thing is, is that EMDR works on multiple levels.

[01:00:39] So when we're processing with someone, we're working on the intellectual level, you know,

[01:00:43] the thinking about the trauma or whatever happened to them.

[01:00:46] We're working on the emotional level, the feeling of the emotions that come up for it.

[01:00:50] And then the physical sensations in someone's body that we have to work on all those levels,

[01:00:55] especially when we're talking about trauma.

[01:00:56] But this can also be used with someone that has an has anxiety, which probably is tied to

[01:01:02] trauma or is dealing with depression, which is probably tied to trauma.

[01:01:06] So many things that people are going through are tied to trauma.

[01:01:09] A lot of mental health issues are because of trauma.

[01:01:11] Yeah.

[01:01:12] Let's end with this.

[01:01:14] Some God stories.

[01:01:15] Obviously, there's the confidentiality.

[01:01:17] But I think one of the best parts of being a pastor is when you walk with someone, you

[01:01:21] see healing and see the gospel transform people's lives and scripture dig deep, seed to being

[01:01:29] sown and it brings forth fruit.

[01:01:31] How have you seen just your role as a therapist, as a counselor coming alongside someone and doing

[01:01:39] whether it be the tools of listening EMDR or just simply referring to a psychiatrist?

[01:01:49] But how have you seen that role that God has given you that skill for his glory and him

[01:01:56] work through dealing with mental health issues?

[01:02:01] You know, when I first when the Lord first made it clear that I was supposed to go back

[01:02:06] to school, get my master's degree and become a therapist.

[01:02:09] I looked at some secular universities and I remember visiting them, the admissions department

[01:02:15] or whatever.

[01:02:15] And I remember thinking to myself and then I visited Trinity at a Christian school.

[01:02:19] So and I remember thinking like, how am I going to write papers about people issues

[01:02:24] and mental health stuff or whatever and leave the Lord out of this?

[01:02:27] Like there's just no way because I knew it.

[01:02:30] Honestly, it came at birth from what he had done in my life and how he saved me and how

[01:02:35] he took my depression that I had been through and took me to doctor, you know, showed me

[01:02:41] the therapist, connected me with the doctors, all those things.

[01:02:43] So I got the proper help.

[01:02:45] Right.

[01:02:45] So with as with a lot of therapists, you know, it starts with our own story, you know, and

[01:02:50] so I it is in a what would I say a very privileged role to have to be a therapist and be this

[01:03:00] intimately involved in people's lives.

[01:03:02] And so what I have seen the Lord, I know the one who is doing the work, basically, it's the Holy Spirit is in

[01:03:08] the room with us.

[01:03:09] The Lord is guiding me.

[01:03:10] I trust that because it's amazing that I'm even sitting there doing this because I know

[01:03:14] my own background, what I've struggled with and been through.

[01:03:17] So but the Lord is doing the work, even with EMDR therapy.

[01:03:22] I am praying for that person before we do that, because I know the Holy Spirit is the one

[01:03:27] ministering it.

[01:03:28] This is Jesus.

[01:03:28] Like he's our healer.

[01:03:30] The Lord is the great physician.

[01:03:31] And so that's what I'm praying over this person as we're doing this.

[01:03:35] You know, so he's directing and guiding like, Lord, you have this.

[01:03:38] We're just tapping into the fact that you made us to be able to heal.

[01:03:41] And so that's what I believe is going on in the therapy room.

[01:03:44] And so and something I did a post about a little while back was basically like what I hope at

[01:03:49] the end of the day when people leave the counseling office or working with me is that

[01:03:53] they're holding on tighter to the Lord, because that's ultimately what I who I'm directing

[01:03:57] them back to.

[01:03:58] And it's not and I don't mean it in a forced way.

[01:04:00] And everybody's at a different place and their walks with the Lord.

[01:04:03] But man, the most satisfying is when someone walks out and they are just their eyes are

[01:04:08] just more on the Lord and they know they are loved and they are accepted and they're safe,

[01:04:13] you know, with him.

[01:04:15] And so that's those are the really, really awesome stories that I see.

[01:04:19] People got better.

[01:04:20] Yes.

[01:04:20] All those things happen.

[01:04:21] And I and I even wrote that in the post.

[01:04:23] Like, it's good.

[01:04:24] Healing is good.

[01:04:24] All these things are good.

[01:04:25] But at the end of the day, man, are you holding on tighter to Jesus?

[01:04:28] Right.

[01:04:29] Yeah.

[01:04:29] Like that's that's that's a win.

[01:04:32] That is a win.

[01:04:32] So I do see people get better and out of that area of struggling or being defined by

[01:04:38] their traumas and all these things.

[01:04:40] Like I've seen so many beautiful things.

[01:04:42] Um, but yeah, them being tighter with the Lord, it's the best.

[01:04:48] Hmm.

[01:04:49] Because that's who they need.

[01:04:50] Yeah, absolutely.

[01:04:51] Yeah.

[01:04:51] Thanks for sharing your wisdom, your insight.

[01:04:54] Uh, do you have any last words of encouragement just for, um, just for us, for church leaders,

[01:05:01] maybe thinking about mental health without being in friendship, uh, whatever it may be.

[01:05:07] Um, yeah.

[01:05:08] Uh, what last words of encouragement would you have for us as far as just dealing with

[01:05:13] mental health issues, not being alone and just ministering to other people that are in need?

[01:05:17] Yeah, I think, um, it's, you know, we talk about mental health issues.

[01:05:20] It's not just people outside of us.

[01:05:21] It's for you too.

[01:05:22] It's for all of us, right?

[01:05:23] We all have a level of mental health or we all have struggles or whatever it is.

[01:05:27] So what's going on within you is just as important as what's going on with everyone

[01:05:33] else.

[01:05:33] If you're not okay and you're not healthy and you're not addressing the things you

[01:05:37] need to address or getting the support, or you're trying to do it all alone, you're

[01:05:41] going to hurt people.

[01:05:42] You're going to hurt yourself more.

[01:05:44] You're going to be a very angry, resentful person because you're also not getting what

[01:05:48] you need.

[01:05:48] You also need the Lord just as much as everyone else that you're telling you need the Lord,

[01:05:53] right?

[01:05:53] Yeah.

[01:05:53] Yeah.

[01:05:54] Yeah.

[01:05:54] So it's like, if you're struggling to know that there, whether it's therapists, whether

[01:05:58] it's groups, whatever that's going to be for you, right?

[01:06:01] Whether it is a good book or something like that, don't be afraid yourself to ask for

[01:06:04] help.

[01:06:05] Because I mean, like, well, you know, my husband will even say, you know, like how

[01:06:10] much it transformed him to go through the panic attacks and anxiety, all that stuff he

[01:06:14] went through some years, years back.

[01:06:16] Like it transformed his empathy for other people.

[01:06:19] It's like, you know, it's not by accident.

[01:06:21] Like the stuff that the Lord sends us through because it changes us.

[01:06:26] So that's what I would say.

[01:06:27] Don't forget yourself in the process.

[01:06:28] I mean, well, yes, we're talking about ministering to other people and so forth.

[01:06:31] Don't forget that you also need to be ministered to.

[01:06:34] Yeah.

[01:06:34] Don't do it alone.

[01:06:35] Well, thanks so much for sharing your wisdom, for spending time with us.

[01:06:39] I pray it was a blessing to you.

[01:06:40] If you have any more questions, I'll drop her info in the Patreon community page or just

[01:06:48] contact me and I will make sure that we can connect with some of the links and resources

[01:06:52] that we talked about.

[01:06:54] So thanks so much, Kristen, for again, sharing that wisdom and just being open and sharing

[01:06:59] your life with us.

[01:07:00] Absolutely.

[01:07:00] Appreciate it.

[01:07:01] Happy to do it.

[01:07:03] Well, hey, I really hope that this episode has blessed you, encouraged you, and had you

[01:07:07] think and process just about mental health and where we're to love people, where we're

[01:07:12] at.

[01:07:12] It's episode 15.

[01:07:13] Next episode will be our last episode of the season 16 episodes for season six.

[01:07:19] Why, you say?

[01:07:20] Well, because we're coming up on the holidays, ladies and gentlemen, and I know how we are

[01:07:24] all so busy.

[01:07:25] And so I wanted to give my family an accurate break to be able to do that.

[01:07:28] And then after the new year, we'll come back with more content, more good stuff.

[01:07:32] But I got one more episode coming to you, episode 16, and we'll drop that in another two

[01:07:37] weeks.

[01:07:37] And so listen, we love you.

[01:07:39] We're praying for you.

[01:07:40] We hope that you're blessed, encouraged, and equipped to do the thing that God has called

[01:07:44] you to do.

[01:07:45] And so thanks again so much for listening.

[01:07:47] We appreciate all your support, and we'll see you in the next episode.