173- The Journey Alternative to Church Membership- with John Offutt

173- The Journey Alternative to Membership- with John Offutt

Welcome to Strength for Today's Pastor, conversations with current senior pastors and leaders which will strengthen and help you in your pastoral ministry. And now, here's your host, Bill Holdridge of Poyman Ministries. Welcome to Podcast 173.

Today I'm excited to be with Pastor John Offutt. John is the senior pastor of LifeSource Community Church in Lyndale, Texas. My wife and I were part of this fellowship for the better part of the three years that we lived in East Texas.

And today, we're going to talk with Pastor John about the overall onboarding process the church has developed to help accomplish its mission. The process is called the journey. And in my not so humble opinion, it's a super innovative approach to the member versus non-member conundrum that many churches face.

Do we have a membership? Do we not have any membership at all? This is something that slices right in between those two options and provides a viable third option. By the way, everyone who decides to partner with LifeSource Church goes through the journey. So, John, welcome to the program.

It's great to have you. Thanks, Bill. Looking forward to it today.

And it's always good to be with you. We just don't get to do it enough. We don't.

And, you know, how many times have we eaten at Petty's Catfish and Steakhouse there on Highway 69 in Lyndale and enjoyed true East Texas food? You know, it's great. If you don't like grief, you don't go there. You don't go there.

That's right. Yeah, you got it so wired there that they don't even bother asking you what you want. I know.

That's sad, isn't it? No, it's good. You got it. You're a charter member.

Well, John, you're now 72 years old and you are the pastor of the fastest growing church in the area. You started LifeSource when you were in your 60s. That's not really prime church planting age, according to many.

So so I would like you to tell the story. How did that happen? Because it's a unique story. You used to pastor Prairie Creek Baptist Church in Lyndale and now you're pastoring LifeSource Community Church.

How did that happen? We did. Well, you know, you mentioned Prairie Creek. We I took Prairie Creek when in back in nineteen ninety one, I believe it was, and just a small little rural church.

And God just sovereignly showed up and God just blessed. We transitioned that church to be more of a non-denominational church called the Fellowship of Prairie Creek. And I was there until the early 2000s.

And then I left and went to my hometown in Paducah, Kentucky, and pastored a church there for six years. And in about 2011, my wife and I decided that, you know, after 40 years, we think that we are done with the senior pastor role, that we're going to move into a different style of ministry. So in 2011, we started a ministry called LifeSource Ministries, and it was designed just to travel and be able to support pastors and and help them develop leadership and so forth.

And then in the fall of 2014, the Lord just began to prompt in our spirit, you know, maybe there's still something left in the tank, you know, at sixty two to be able to still continue to offer something in the local church realm. But I'm going to be honest with you, Bill, it's not something I really wanted to do. I felt like I had done my time, that I had done everything that I that I had wanted to do.

I wasn't looking for any other mountains to conquer. So I really resisted it. I had people speaking into my life, telling me that they really felt like that was what God was saying.

But what really began to seal it is I was with a pastor friend of mine and Tyler, which is about 10 minutes away from here. And we were just having breakfast one morning, just catching up, finding out what was going on in our families and so forth. And right when we were getting ready to leave the restaurant, he said, I really feel like the Lord has laid something on my heart to share with you.

Do you mind if I share it? And at that point, what are you going to say, Bill? I mean, you're going to say, no, I'm really not interested in what God has to say. So I said, sure. And he said he made a statement along this line.

He said, God wants me to tell you that you're not too old and you can still do it again. And he said, I don't even know if that even means anything to you. In my spirit, begrudgingly, I'm saying, oh, yes, it does mean something to me.

So in late 2014, we just gathered about eight people together that were close friends. And we just begin to pray, asking God, is this something that you really seriously are wanting us to consider doing? As you know, our little community of Lindale, we have 46 churches in our community. So it's not like we are starving to death for another congregation.

So I just told the Lord, God, the only way I'm ever going to do this is if you give us a vision, if you give us a perspective of doing church that could be different than what everybody else seemed to be doing at the time. And we felt like the Lord did that. So on the first Sunday of 2015 in January, a little handful of us met on a Sunday morning and God has just done beyond anything that we would ever even imagine from that little bitty storefront building to what God has done over the last 10 years.

 So that's how we started. You know, just to put it in perspective for those listeners, John, Lindale is listed as having a population of about 6000. Those are the signs on the side of the road anyway. 

The high school football stadium seats 8500 and it's usually packed. And there's 46 churches. But LifeSource is not a small church. 

It's not a medium-sized church. It's now in the category of what we would call a large church. And it happened, like you said, what happened with Prairie Creek. 

It was a sovereign work of God. But you and Bruce Hebel, Bruce Hebel, for those that are listening, is the author of the book Forgiving Forward and is a revolutionary for pushing forward the forgiveness revolution that needs to happen in all of our lives and in the churches. Anyway, you and Bruce were boyhood friends. 

You grew up together and all that kind of stuff. And you said something to him before LifeSource came to be that cracks me up. And he's told me the same story. 

So go ahead. Well, Bruce and I, we're from the same hometown, naturally, in Paducah, Kentucky. So I'm there visiting my family. 

He's there with his family. And we meet up for breakfast one morning. And we're just talking about things. 

And at that moment, I'm traveling and he's traveling. And we're just talking about life. And I made the statement to him. 

I said, Bruce, if you ever hear a rumor or anything else that I am ever even contemplating starting a church, I need you to come to wherever I'm at and physically stop me from ever thinking about doing that. So he reminds me of that quite often. And we've had Bruce here several times, as you know. 

But he always reminds me, you know, whenever I'll start saying, well, this is happening, this is happening. He said, I tried to stop you, but you wouldn't listen. That's hilarious. 

That's really hilarious. Yeah, that's a great story. So back to the journey, John. 

Some churches have, obviously, what's called a formal membership. And those kinds of memberships can get a little bit cranky and a little bit controlling at times. And if it's not done in the Holy Spirit and not done in the right way, it becomes a yoke around the neck of the disciples. 

But then other churches take the opposite stance. They have a laissez-faire approach to leadership. People come, people go, little or no commitment to others, little or no commitment to the church body. 

And probably, in most cases, usually little or no commitment to the Lord Jesus himself. They just haven't learned a new way of doing life in Christ. So what we have in situations like that is a loosey-goosey kind of Christianity, which really ends up not becoming Christianity at all. 

But I would describe what LifeSource does as being in the middle, and in some ways the best of both worlds. So I'd like you to get into this with us today, because it's such a great story and I think a great model. And so let's just cut to the chase. 

Why do you call it the journey that is the journey process? Why do you call it church partnership and not church membership? Well, I first want to say, Bill, and I want all your listeners to know that our answer to that question does not indicate in any way that we're better than somebody else, or we do it right, and everybody else is wrong. We do it the way we feel like God has led us to do it. So that's the first thing I want to say. 

I would not want anybody to think that we are looking at this from an expert seat, that we've got all of this figured out. Partnership has its own merit of challenges, as well as membership does. But the reason why we did it that way, whenever we really would look at Ephesians chapter 4, and you would find that there was a commitment that was talked about in Ephesians 4, where every individual part fulfills the role that it was designed to be able to fulfill. 

The role of the leadership is to equip the saints to be able to do the work of the ministry. And sadly, in my vast experience of years of ministry, we rarely took that very, very seriously. I mean, we gave lip service to it a lot and would think that we were doing it, but we didn't really have a plan to do it. 

We didn't really have a strategy that we were implementing. So when we began LifeSource, it was like, okay, if we're going to do this, we need to be very strategic and very intentional about fulfilling Ephesians 4. The reason for the difference between membership and partnership came down to the idea that we were beginning to process that in our consumeristic culture, people view membership as they would any other organization that they would join or pay their dues to be a part of. And in the mindset, in our opinion, of membership comes with this idea that I am joining something to be able to receive some type of service or certain privileges that come along with that. 

And to my experience, that has just created a very casual spectator culture to where people come to church, they view it very casually. If I'm there, I'm there. If I'm not, I'm not. 

It doesn't really make a difference whether I am or not. And there is not an investment. So when we started looking at Ephesians 4, we said this is not really indicating a casual membership model. 

This is talking about a committed partnership model to where a partner actually makes an investment. A partner takes on responsibility. A partner fulfills a commitment that they are going to take part of the responsibility for fulfilling the church's mission and vision. 

So that's why we went to partnership versus membership. And we make very clear what it means to be a partner. Because we are just up front and honest. 

We are not interested in building a room full of spectators that just want to come and watch the show. You know, we want people that are going to be invested. They're going to be a part of one another's life. 

They're going to serve. They're going to grow spiritually. They are going to be a part of fulfilling what God has led us to do. 

So that was our journey for deciding between the two. I love that. It's like if there is not that approach, then there's no buy-in. 

And if there's no buy-in on the part of the congregants, they don't feel like this is something to invest their life into some way, to some degree, then they're going to get little out of. You know, they could think that the membership process or the membership title would entitle them to certain privileges, but it's not going to do it. It's not going to do it like being involved, like being connected to other people and all those kinds of things. 

I was listening to a podcast the other day, John, and the guy that was being interviewed, he was trying to explain how he planted a church in Central Texas. And he said, I didn't know what I was doing, but I learned something. God blesses hustle. 

That's going to be a new line for me. God blesses hustle. And I think the people that come into our churches need to hustle. 

I mean, they take this seriously, and as do the leaders in responding to all that. Okay, well, thanks for that explanation. So you make statements about the church you're leading that really define your approach in a couple of ways. 

Two statements I love. One is you belong here. So what's the reason for that statement? Well, we wanted to be able to present an atmosphere or a culture or a sense of understanding that regardless of what your background has been, regardless of what your experiences have been, even the detours that you've taken in your life, there is a place for you here. 

We have a statement that you matter to God, so therefore you matter to us. And that is something that we believe, and we try to flesh that out, that we try to extend acceptance to people from all backgrounds. Doesn't matter what race, doesn't matter denominational background. 

We are a non-denominational church, which presents its own challenges at times. But when we say you belong here, that is that commitment to you, that we want to be invested in your life. We want to be able to walk through life with you and put our feet to that and actually let that become a reality. 

So that's the background of why that statement, you belong here. Oh, that's great. Beautiful. 

And I think that people can sense that. There's no doubt that people can sense that in that fellowship. And then another statement that you had on one of your website pages, let's find your journey.

 Yeah. Well, we're all on a journey, right? It doesn't matter what stage of our life is, we're all on this journey. And what we have found, Bill, is that people have a lot of condemnation and a lot of shame related to their journey. 

A lot of people have experienced a lot of failure. They've experienced a lot of broken commitments. And there's a lot of times, sadly, those things are related to their experience in churches before. 

There's a lot of church hurt. There's a lot of disillusionment, disappointment. So when we tell people, let's find your journey, that means two or three different things. 

It means let's identify where you are right now. We're not going to judge you for where you are, but we do want to be honest about where you are. And then we want to be able to give you a plan about moving forward on how you can fulfill what God had a desire for you. 

We believe every person that God has a plan for their life, that every person is gifted, that every person needs to be involved in what God has placed within them to be able to do. So we want to intersect you where you are. And then we want to help you find the direction that God wants your journey to take. 

And everybody's journey looks different. Everybody's background looks different. Everybody's gifting may be a little bit different. 

So the mandate for us is to be involved in your journey, help you develop a strategy of moving forward in your journey, and then equip you and empower you to be able to fulfill that. And that's why we started what we call the journey class, which is what every person that's going to be a partner at LifeSource has to be able to go through, or you're not a partner here. And it's a beautiful thing because now the people are free to discover who they are in Christ and what Jesus has given them, and they've got a leadership team that's helping them discover those things. 

Rather than starting from the church program and then trying to get volunteers, LifeSource is looking at the people as the greatest resource in the church. So what has God designed you to do and be? Let's do that, and then we're going to be the best version of ourselves as a church. That's what I'm sensing and feeling by LifeSource. 

Yeah, that's our viewpoint. We just believe that most people do not know what they're gifted to do. So that's where we start. 

Everyone that signs up to be a part of the journey, which I said a moment ago is a required, that is our partnership class, so to speak, that no one becomes a partner without going through that process. The very first thing we do is we make available for everyone to take a spiritual gift assessment and a personality profile so we know who we're dealing with, so we know what God has gifted you to do, and then they go through this class, and in this class, we break out what the values of the church are, what the vision and the mission of the church is, how the church operates, the identity of who we are, and then we show them all of the different ministries, which I think right now we have about 30, that people have the opportunity to be involved in, and then we help place them in the place where they could be the most effective based upon the spiritual gift assessment and the personality profile that they have been able to identify. What we have found, this has created a tremendous amount of freedom in the lives of people because so many of them didn't have any idea where they would fit. 

They had been so diminished over the years, they'd even feel like there was a place to be able to fit, so as a result, our ministries have not been birthed sitting around a leadership pastor table. Our ministries have been birthed out of people coming into our church with a particular gifting in order to be able to lead a ministry, and that's how we've birthed the ministries. It's been very organic. 

It has been based upon the giftings and abilities of the people, not just an idea of something that we could do to plug people into. Well, what you said here is key because somebody that's gifted to do this idea that they're bringing forth, it's not what you're not saying is, hey, pastor, I think that the church should do this and this and this, and so you're the pastor, go ahead and do it. It's not that at all. 

It's their gifting, it's their leadership ability, and the leadership team and the pastoral team is there to help them along the way as they develop their leadership skills and their gifting fulfillment in that area of ministry. That's what's happening. That is correct, and it's just something we talk about all the time to so that people have an understanding is that we do not start any ministry from the leadership table. 

We are recognizing where people are, who God has brought us, and then things are birthed when there is a person to be able to lead it, and we now, we have discovered some hits and misses along the way as you do everywhere. We have discovered that just because someone has a passion for something doesn't necessarily mean they're equipped to lead it, that they can be involved in it, but they may not have the leadership capability in order to be able to lead it, and we walk through that, and we just deal with whatever that presents itself to be, but we have found that when people can plug in to where it is that they are gifted to serve, then you don't have the burnout level. You don't have the fallout level. 

You don't have the people that just bail because they're being fulfilled in the things in which they're doing, and we have found for us that is a much better way of doing ministry than just sticking a body somewhere because you'd have to have them, and they don't feel like anybody really cares about them, and they just kind of fall off on the wayside. Yeah, there's somebody involved with them, right? I mean, there's somebody helping them along the way. That equipping encouragement process doesn't end. 

Okay, so those are two key words or phrases. You belong here, and then the other one, let's find your journey. Thanks for breaking those out for us. 

So, you have expectations of this partnership that you clearly communicate with people during the journey class and in other ways, so let's go through those a little bit. What you can expect from the leadership of LifeSource, this is what the congregant is reading or hearing about during the class, right? So, you probably have them memorized. Well, we'll see. 

Go ahead. I was just going to say, let's do these bullet points style, but go ahead and say what you're going to say, and then we'll go for it. I was just going to say that we view this partnership, it's not just the person making a commitment to the church.

It is us as the church making a commitment to them. If you could imagine it like a table, they are coming to the table saying that we want to invest our life into LifeSource. We are coming to the table saying we are going to help you develop. 

We are going to help equip you. We are going to provide you with the opportunity. It's up to you on whether you take it or not, but we're going to provide you the opportunity to be encouraged, to be equipped, to be able to grow, to be able to be empowered, to be able to be released, to be able to do ministry. 

So it's a two-fold partnership. It's not just one-sided to where we're asking you to come and be a part of who we are and fulfill what we want to do. No, we view that as a mutual commitment to one another. 

So that's the foundation of what the expectation of the church is and what the expectation of the partner is. That makes sense. So the whole idea or the whole result of this as I've observed it at LifeSource is that ministry and involvement is two things.

 It's a no-fail zone. If God blesses hustle, it's a no-fail zone. What you start out at, like use that example you used of the person who feels insignificant and like there is no part that he or she could ever play in a church, you may start out at X, but that may just be the next step you're taking to find out what Y is or Z is for you, and we're going to be with you. 

So it's not a failure zone, and it's a no-fear zone as well because you don't have to fear failure with us. We're for you. Then you don't have to be afraid, and so you can just move ahead and find out what the Holy Spirit is doing in your life. 

We're a big believer in seasons. We're a big believer in lateral movement that if you start out in this ministry and then as you grow and as you mature and God gives you a greater level of understanding about things and he develops a part in you for something else, then there's freedom to be able to move to that. There's freedom to be able to move laterally, and this season closes, and this season opens, and we help support you in that. 

So I don't think people feel that pressure or the expectation that I cannot let anybody down. I can't fail here. Hopefully no one feels that. 

Amen. So back to what you can expect from the You laid the foundation to pray for you weekly. The pastoral leadership at the church makes a commitment that we are going to pray for our congregation. 

We have a prayer ministry within the church that actually prays by name for people within the church. We have prayer requests that come in every Sunday. Those are prayed for by the pastors. 

They are prayed for by the prayer team. We have ministry structure that all of our ministry leaders work under, and those overseers of those particular group of ministries, they are prayed for because we realize that prayer is the fuel that drives the engine. If we're not going to be based in prayer, then all we're doing is a lot of busy activity, and God's not been able to really empower any of it. 

So we take that pretty seriously. And then to provide authentic environments where you can connect with God in worship. Yeah. 

Authenticity is a big word that we use, and to where you can be who you are, you can come and encounter the Lord in whatever way you feel comfortable. It doesn't mean that we have a free-for-all, but it just does mean that you can just be authentic in the way that you communicate with God, that we are going to provide those opportunities. Again, it's up to you whether you take advantage of those. 

That can involve a Sunday morning. It can involve a special service that we have. It can involve a variety of different activities or events, but we are going to give you every opportunity that we can possibly provide where you can connect in an authentic way with God in your spiritual life. 

Yeah, and just to comment on that, you've got such an amazing and wonderful mix of people. You've got people from very conservative worship style backgrounds, and then you've got people from charismatic and Pentecostal side, and everything in the middle, and everybody gets along. It's amazing, isn't it? It's really something. 

Yeah, I just love it. You have people that are beyond their face at the altar during worship, and then you'll have people that are standing with their hands raised, and then you'll have people that are sitting more quietly and more reserved, but it doesn't matter. Everybody is free to be themselves. 

I love that. We just give people that freedom. We really try to cultivate that culture of freedom where people know that there is no preconceived expectation of what they have to be able to do to be accepted. 

Yeah, that's cool. That's cool, and then to provide solid biblical instruction. That's happening. 

Well, I hope it is. You've spoken here many, many times, and we try to make the Scripture as applicable as we possibly can, true to the text, true to the context of the Scripture, but also where somebody can listen to it on a Sunday and put it into practice when they go to work or to go to school on Monday, and to where it is something that is solid, that is balanced, that is biblical and appliable, and since that's my role, I just pray that's happening. Well, one of the results of that is that people talk about the message afterwards, and they go into their small groups. 

If it's a sermon-based small group especially, they go into their small groups and they talk about it, and I can't tell you how many times I've had people say, man, that was powerful what Pastor John said. That just nailed me right in the so people are paying attention. Okay, next, to hold you accountable in becoming a fully devoted follower of Christ. 

Yeah, that is something that we have found that our commitment and our love for someone, if we do not hold them accountable to what their agreement or their commitment has been, then we are not fulfilling our role to be able to love them sufficiently, that part of the mission of who we are is developing fully devoted followers of Jesus. So, when somebody becomes a partner with us, then they are committing to the fact, yes, that is the desire of my life. That is what it is that we want to do. 

So, to fulfill our responsibility of being their spiritual overseer, to be the one that's feeding them, equipping them, being the one that is empowering them into ministry, then it does involve some accountability. You know, it's not just all about agreeability. You know, there is some factor that someone needs to be in your life to be able to hold you accountable for the commitments in which you've made, not as a heavy-handed thing, but something of just fulfilling our commitment of loving one another the way Jesus loved us. 

So, we do provide that level of honesty and authenticity with people in that area of relationship. You know, it seems to me, John, that by doing it that way, you are actually honoring the people, because not only are there expectations of keeping the commitment, but you are honoring them by saying, we are taking your Christian life seriously. You matter, and your Christian life matters. 

And so, we want to help you continue to matter in those ways, you know? I mean, I feel honored in that kind of an environment. So, that's good. Okay, quickly with the other ones here. 

To equip you for the works of ministry as best we can, we've talked about that. To empower you to step out in your gifts and callings and impact those around you. That is happening, and you said you mentioned the direct oversight of ministry leaders, and in the ministry, the leaders themselves, how they have direct oversight over those that are working within that ministry. 

That's great, and they encourage you in your spiritual journey. Anything else to add to that list? No, that's what we make available. Actually, under that umbrella comes, you know, walking through the difficult seasons of life with people, as any pastor that's out in the audience today does. 

You know, when people's life takes an unfortunate turn, or there's a crisis, or there's a trauma, or anything of that nature, we just want to be present. We want to be able to be so involved as a family that we walk things through with the principle of family. You know, we're not going to respond in judgment and condemnation before we respond in grace.

You know, that is the way we have made that commitment that we are going to do what 1 Corinthians 13 says. We are always going to believe the best. We are always going to walk with you in grace until we can, and that's the way we treat people, and when we have to discipline, we discipline, but we do it for the betterment of them, and restoration is always the goal. 

So, that's part of all of that accountability factor that gets the whole package. You can't pick and choose, you know, which pieces of the family you're going to experience. You know, you've got to be able to be willing to accept all of that. 

Yes, amen. That's why it's important for congregants to let their leaders do what they do with joy and not with grief, because that would be unprofitable for them. So, signing the partnership agreement is a benefit to everybody. 

I believe it is. Okay, so then to the second half of this coin, the other side of the coin, what the leadership of LifeSource can expect from you. First thing you mentioned is to be here by attending worship services and special events as much as possible. 

Yeah, we don't want to make that a legalistic thing to where there's a requirement of so many Sundays a month. Life happens, and people live their life and work life and family life and all types of different circumstances that happen, but it just goes without saying, if you're going to be a part of a body and you're not here, then you're not going to be connected. So, that is the, when you go through Ephesians 4, it's obvious you cannot fulfill any of the principles out of Ephesians 4 if you're not here, you know, that you have to be a part of one another's life. 

You have to be a part of what God is doing. Someone that rarely comes, not only will they not be connected relationally, but they will not be connected to what God is actually doing within the church. So, we just tell people a very basic characteristic of partnership is being here as much as you can, and, you know, if life takes you out for a Sunday, it takes you out for a Sunday, but nobody's going to come and kind of chastise you because you missed a week, but we do want to make sure that you are taking advantage of every opportunity that's been afforded to you. 

Mm-hmm. Well, that's great. And then to live life here by getting involved in a life group and other life-giving opportunities, and then to minister here by using your spiritual gifts to fulfill your God-given passion and purpose. 

Those two things go together for us. We tell people up front very forcefully in our journey class that if you have no intention of serving, or you have no intention of being in a life group, which is what we call our small groups, then you do not need the partner here because we feel so strongly that you are not going to be able to fulfill your spiritual growth unless you are connected relationally, unless you are actively serving, and we don't feel like we're doing anyone a service by cheapening that. We feel like that's what makes Ephesians 4 work, and if we are going to cheapen that or lessen that, then we are not truly benefiting the person by allowing them just to skate around that. 

So those two things are very, very important in our process. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. The people are connected, and you mentioned under another section of your website, a culture of care. 

You desire to have a culture of care, and then you mentioned the one and others. So how in the world can we do the one and others if we're not around one another? Well, that's my point. That's what I tell everybody. 

We always quote Hebrews 10 that we're not to forsake our assembly of ourselves together, but there was a point for that. It's so we could encourage one another. In all the wars, we see the day of the Lord approaching, so you can't even fulfill the basic responsibility of Christianity if we're not together, and if we're not connected together, and we try very hard to be able to cultivate a culture of care to where we actually have a t-shirt that says it's okay not to be okay, because what that simply means is you don't have to put on a fake face here. 

You don't have to try to be something that you're not. You have to pretend everything is okay. We're going to love you right where you are, and then we're going to help you get to where God wants you to go. 

You know, Bill, it's funny. We created that t-shirt that it's okay not to be okay, and then I've said in sermons after that we need to put it on the back, but it's not okay to stay that way. It's okay not to be okay, but we don't want you to remain not being okay. 

You know, we want to be able to care about you and love you and be able to be in your life a point to where you get to where you are okay. So, you know, that's something that it'd make a very long t-shirt though if we tried to put all of that on there. And then the last point you put on your website about what the leadership of LifeSource can expect from you to give here by joyfully tithing 10% and participating in other free will offerings. 

You know, that's just to me that is a life of stewardship is how we present it. It's a life of stewardship whether someone believes that the 10% is the tithe or whether it's grace giving. We don't get hung up on all of that. 

We just kind of we just simply want you to live a life of stewardship. We want you to be able to be a good steward with your time, with your possessions, with your giftings, and the bottom line of being involved in a if you're going to help be responsible for fulfilling the mission and the vision of the church, then you also need to take on the responsibility of help financing the vision and the mission of the church. To us, it's just the fulfillment of what your responsibility is. 

It's not some legalistic standard, but it is something that's a responsible standard that we are expecting you as a partner. Now, if you don't want to be a partner and just attend here, that's fine. And we have a lot of people that do that. 

But if you're going to take the step to be a partner, then you've got to take on the responsibility of help financing the ministry that God has told us to be able to do. So the question of stewardship and then somebody once said salvation is free, but ministry is expensive. Yes. 

And there's a lot of truth to that. So with the whole idea of giving, it reminds me of the parable of the unjust steward in Luke 16. And it's this story where Jesus, his conclusion is make friends for yourselves by means of the use of unrighteous mammon, that when it fails, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. 

So I love that story. But then he says, he who is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in that which is much. He who is, you know, that type of thing. 

So I'm thinking that stewardship and giving out of our stewardship responsibilities, that's Christianity 101. To me, it is. And I, you know, I know the word steward is kind of lost in our culture. 

We don't really use it a lot. But we just share with our people all of the time that being a good steward of whatever it is that God has given you just simply means that you're managing the affairs of the possessions of another and that everything that we have is a gift. It doesn't matter if it's our time, if it's our energy, if it's our life, it's our health, if it's our finances, everything that God has given us is a gift. 

Therefore, our responsibility is to be a good steward of that. And we, I believe we will give an account for that on how good of a steward we were with what God has given us. You know, we don't have to compare our gift with somebody else's. 

We don't have to compare our gift, our offering with somebody else. I don't believe that God is looking for equal giving. I believe that God is looking for equal sacrifice, you know, and that's how we present it. 

There's no condemnation, no manipulation, no legalism connected to it, but there is an expectation of stewardship connected to it. And I believe that is where your spiritual growth actually begins because it affects every area of your life. Yeah. 

And you use the word joyfully in that statement. You know, God loves a cheerful giver. You know, who wants to receive something from somebody that, well, I don't really want to give this to you. 

I'm not really interested in being a blessing, but here you go. You've manipulated me into this. So here it is. 

You know, nobody wants to receive that. And certainly nobody wants to give that. I don't even think God wants to receive that. 

He doesn't. He does not. He loves a cheerful giver, no doubt. 

Okay. So we're going to talk a little bit just about culture, church culture. And we talked about that before we came on the recording side of this, but culture is the environment created by people and what they hold to be valuable. 

So you have statements about culture. I'm just going to read a couple of them, and then I want to focus on one of them that is such a blessing that it's part of the culture of life source. They're all a blessing, but a culture of growing in a vibrant relationship with Jesus, a culture of community, living life together, culture of serving, serving and gifting and passion, a culture of care, support and care for one another, a culture of spiritual growth, experiencing life transformation, where there can be stories shared about how we're growing in our lives. 

But the one I want to focus on is something that you have done, and I don't know too many churches that have done this, but I hope more do, a culture of forgiveness. You actually include in the journey the forgiving forward message that Bruce Hebel has taught and spread around in his teaching and in his books. Talk about that, and how important has that been to LifeSource? It has been incredibly important. 

As we said earlier on in the broadcast, Bruce and I are very good friends, very close, grew up together a lot. His dad was a pastor who was really my mentor early in ministry, so we're like family. So the message of forgiving forward is not just a content of a book to me, you know, it's a life-giving, breathing message of the gospel. 

So whenever Bruce began to share that over the years with us, and we've had him here many times in different settings talking about it, we have come, we came to the conclusion, Bill, that someone cannot really be healthy or productive in their own personal life or in their life of relationships unless they are walking in the freedom of forgiveness. So even this last year, we took it to another level to where we offer the forgiving forward seminar in video form four times a year now for six weeks at a time, and we offer that and where they get the content of the video, but then we schedule one-on-one coaching sessions with individuals or couples to take them through the actual forgiveness protocols of being able to walk in the freedom of forgiveness. It has been such a powerful experience to be able to see people set free, to be able to see people understand what true forgiveness actually is, to know that it's not a process that you've got to go through. 

It's a transaction that we take it to the cross. Jesus paid for it on the cross. Everything that's ever been, every offense we have ever had or ever will have has already been paid for by the blood of Jesus, and the blood of Jesus is sufficient to take care of that wound and to see people grasp that and to see people begin to walk with their husband or their wife or their children or their parents or work relationships that have been so toxic and wounding to see them be able to walk in forgiveness and know that they do not have to live with all this unresolved anger and bitterness. 

We believe in it so much that when somebody goes through the journey before they are actually placed into a life group now, they go through the six-week forgiving forward class as their introduction into small group. So we have just tried to integrate that into the very fabric of who we are as a church, because it really is, as you know very well, it is the actual demonstration of the gospel. I mean, that's what it is. 

So having people be able to understand that and walk in that provides health for the church, but boy, it provides tremendous freedom for the person. So that's kind of how we've tried to weave it into the fabric of our culture. That's awesome. 

You know, I want, as a pastor, to pastor the church in such a way and be leading the church with other leaders in such a way, is that I really, really, really want to be part of that church. I want to attend the church that I'm pastoring. I really want to, and the forgiving forward message really helps that. 

I mean, who doesn't want to be part of a church where people are forgiving one another, where people are not living in the past, people aren't carrying unresolved issues and wounds, and they're actually free from bitterness. We want to be around people like that, and we want to be those kinds of people. I mean, it's attractive, and the world is waiting for churches to get this thing happening. 

You know, it's life-giving. I think that, Bill, over the years, you know, over the years of church ministry and all the dysfunctional relationships that happen, and all the conflicts that happen, and how people hold grudges and animosity toward people, and I think what a poor representation of the gospel. You know, what a poor reflection upon the attractiveness of Jesus is that to whenever we distort the forgiveness message like that, and I've been part of that distortion. 

You know, most believers probably have been, but whenever you begin to realize that this type of life of forgiveness is just life-giving, and it's attractive, and people want to be able to be a part of that, so it's been a tremendous part of who we are. Yeah, yeah, I'm really glad for that. So I'm going to fast forward and go through this last section fast because we probably should wind up here pretty soon, but there are things that are true of LifeSource Church that I noticed being part of the fellowship, and they just stood out in such a great way. 

You do some wild and crazy things, like, for example, Serve Day. Yeah, Serve Day. Every month that has a fifth Sunday, that fifth Sunday is dedicated to a Serve Day, and you guys do what's unthinkable to most pastors. 

You actually don't meet as a congregation in the church facility on Serve Day. No, we don't. Yeah, and that is the reaction that I get most of the time whenever people are trying to figure out what in the world we're doing, you know. 

This actually started now about five years ago. People that are listening to this that are in the north where it snows a lot will think this is probably comical, but for us, we had a big snowstorm about five years ago, and it was about five inches, you know, and for us, that just paralyzed everything, but it was also very, very cold, so we had a lot of people in our community that were having frozen pipes. They couldn't get into their driveway. 

They were having tree branches fall, so we just, on the spur of the moment, mobilized a group of people to go out into the community with four-wheel drive trucks and chainsaws, and some plumbers went out, and we repaired pipes and did all the other cleanup stuff that people were needing, and when we came back from that, everybody sitting around talking about everybody was so energized by that, you know, everybody that went out and spent the whole day in the cold and laying in the snow and getting wet, they were just blessed, so we began to talk as leadership, well, what would it look like if we just did that on purpose, you know, that we didn't wait for a crisis. We didn't wait for some weather event to mobilize us, so what we came up with, as you just described, is we looked at the calendar, and four times a year, there's a fifth Sunday, and we said, well, what would it look like if we just shut down church on a Sunday, and instead of having church, we actually went out and acted like the church, that we put our faith in action and gave people an opportunity to be the church on that day, not just come and do church on that day, so as we begin to think about it, that's a commitment that we made, so what we do is that it's progressed a lot over the five years. It was very basic at the beginning, but now it has grown to where it's pretty sophisticated, to where we have a team that works throughout the year, and a few weeks before the serve day, we're getting ready to have one at the end of March, on March the 30th, that's the fifth Sunday, so several weeks ago, we began to promote and have people that knew people that had needs that they could not meet on their own. 

This may mean older people that are not physically able to clean up their property, or do minor house repairs, or it may need, it may be people who are not financially able to be able to meet some of those needs, so we have those people turn in the names of people that they know of. We have evaluators that go out and look at those projects and say, yes, this is something that we feel like can fit within the confines of what we do on a serve day. All the projects have to be able to be completed within a three-hour window. 

They have to be within 30 minutes of the church facility, just simply for being able to get it done, so then we will decide which projects that we are going to do, and then we have people sign up to be a part of a serve team. One of the things that makes what we do a little different is that we allow families to serve together with their children, so even if they've got little kids, they can serve, they can sign up to serve as a family, and then they will be placed on a project that is not life-threatening or not something that would be dangerous for the little kids to be involved in, and it is so cool to be able to see kids learning to serve alongside of their family, so once we get all of that together, then I think this time we've got like 20 different locations that we're going to be going to, so when people say, do you mean to tell me you don't have church on Sunday morning, and I say, oh no, we have church on Sunday morning. It's just in 20 different locations, you know, where we have church, so while we are out doing the serving, we have teams that are here at the church. 

We have a food team that's here preparing lunch. We have a grill team that's here grilling burgers and hot dogs, and at 11 30 to 12 o'clock, everybody returns. We all have lunch together, and then we share testimonies about what has taken place on the course of the day. 

We have a prayer team that comes, then divides up into prayer groups, and they go to every site and prays with the homeowner, prays with the team that is there, and covers everything that we're doing in prayer, and then we invite the homeowner that we have just served to come back to the church and have lunch with us at 12 o'clock, and we have found that it's just being able to express the love of Jesus in a practical way, and people can't figure out why we do it. They think there's got to be a catch, you know. There's got to be, there's some fine print somewhere, because we don't ask anybody to pay for what we do. 

Not only do we not receive an offering for the church on that Sunday, we pay for all the projects that we do on that Sunday, and God has just blessed us. You know, the old saying, you can't outgive God. We have found that to be true, so that is just a core of who we are. 

It's really kind of become one of our characteristics of our DNA, that it has made such an impact in our community. To me, there is no greater compliment when somebody talks about LifeSource that does not attend here, and they go, oh yeah, you all are that church that does stuff in the community, right? That's exactly who we are, because we feel like putting our faith in action outside the walls of this building is a critical part of what God has called us to do, so that's, in a nutshell, that's how we operate Served Day. Well, that's so unique, wonderful, and having been a part of it several times, it was like that, you know, everything you just described. 

Well, you know, there are other things that we observed when we were there that stood out to me. Theological harmony was one of them. Not theological conformity, but the practice of agreement, you know, and not making big issues out of minor ones, and I just appreciated that so much, you know, wonderful. 

And then, you know, the fact that you have very specific onboarding process for specific ministries, like the worship team, for example, what's expected if you're going to be part of the worship team, you know, auditions, whatever is expected, code of ethic, understanding what it means to be on the worship team, how to comport yourself, that kind of stuff. So many of those kinds of things, and then the direct pastoral or leadership oversight of every ministry in the church. These are all things that don't often happen. 

They don't often develop within a church's culture, but that's what's happened at LifeSource, and like you said, you know, you're not expressing LifeSource as a church that has it all figured out, and it's got it all wired, and you guys are the experts in anything. You're still in a journey as a church, but there's definite evidence of the handprint of God, and I'll never forget when we took the journey class ourselves, my wife and I, I came up to you afterwards. I don't know if you remember what I said to you, but I said, you know, John, I'm a Calvary Chapel pastor for many years, and this church functions more like a Calvary Chapel than a lot of Calvary Chapels do. 

And I took that as a great compliment. Well, and yeah, it was, and I think it's a great model, and I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for being able to be part of this interview. 

Yeah, John, and you know, resources that can be found and discovered through the website are freely available to all. The website is LifeSourceLindale.com, and then you'll find out about the Forgiving Forward emphasis of the church there. That book is called Forgiving Forward. 

The website is ForgivingForward.com. A lot of things that are within this podcast that can be transferable or used by others if they would like. Now, I know there's a part of the website that's being reconstructed. You told me this earlier, that the onboarding agreements are not currently listed on the website and available for download because you're redoing some of the wording. 

So when will those be available? Just whenever the team gets them finished. I don't have a time frame on it. I will just make mention, every ministry does have an onboarding process. 

We have what we call a covenant, and that every person that commits to be a part of a ministry has to be able to agree to. And in that, it provides clarity. This is what you're committing to. 

This is the length of time in which you're committing to it. We do those a year on an annual basis. So in a year, you have the ability, if you want to switch ministries or do something different, you have the freedom to do that. 

But we feel like that we enter into a covenant with one another. It's not just being a volunteer. It's not just filling a spot somewhere that you are going to be a part of a team. 

We believe that one of our mandates is to build leaders, and that doesn't necessarily mean pastoral leaders. That just means leaders as believers. So that covenant is to reinforce that commitment to being a leader and to be committed to that ministry leader, so they will know that they can be dependent upon. 

So every ministry has one of those, and we as the pastors work closely with the ministry leader, that it reflects that ministry's true vision and what that ministry actually needs, because every ministry's needs are completely different. So those are not on the website right now, but they will be available hopefully very soon. Okay, great. 

Lifesourcelindale.com. Okay, great. We'll keep our eyes out for that and looking for that. So put you on the spot a little bit. 

You're 72. How many more decades are you going to do this, Pastor John? You know, that's a great question, Bill. I don't think I'm measuring it in decades anymore. 

You know, we have one of our other cultural values is generational empowerment, and we believe very strongly in building up and supporting the generation that is coming behind us, and there is a time coming where the baton from my seat will be passed to someone else to be in my seat. I don't know exactly the date, but I think I can see it from here, you know, but we just want to do our due diligence and make sure that we are ready when that time comes, but we'll not be holding on to that beyond the healthy length of time for the church, because younger leadership is required, you know. Younger leadership is necessary for the health of the church and to be able to fulfill what we believe in, so that process is ongoing. 

Well, in the present, you and your wife did something that has helped you survive and helped you flourish more. Just last year, you took a three-month sabbatical, or was it two months? Two months. Two months, okay. 

We did. I had never been in a place, 50 years of ministry, never been in a place where that was ever even an option, so when our elders about this time last year came to me and said, what would you think about taking a sabbatical, and my comment was, I don't think anything about it, because I've never been able to even consider doing it, and boy, our church was so generous, Bill, is they gave us two months, paid for the entire thing, and it was just great to where we were able to disconnect. We were able to replenish, able to refresh, did not realize how tired and distracted I was until after about the second week that we entered into and realized, wow, I needed this so badly and didn't even know I needed it, but it has given a new energy. 

It has given a new perspective. I didn't realize that my vision about things was so clouded because I was just distracted with so many things, and when you remove all those distractions for an extended period of time, you're able to see better. You're able to see things in the spirit more clearly, and so I can't speak highly enough of our elders and our church for extending us that opportunity. 

It was life-changing for us. Yeah, amen. I'm so glad for you, and speaking with Carla a couple weeks ago, she was still beaming. 

Yeah, yeah. She's ready to go again. Ready to go again. 

Yeah, well, go for it, man. Go for it, you know. Go for it. 

Well, again, thanks for joining us, John. So, we've been talking with Pastor John Offutt of LifeSource Community Church in Lyndale, Texas, East Texas, beautiful part of Texas, and we're so grateful for what the Lord is doing there in that community in so many, so many ways that we didn't even have time to touch on this morning. So, may the Lord bless you as you continue in your ministries, and if you hang on, the announcer will give you information as to how you can contact us if you desire to be connected with anything that we at Pointman Ministries might be able to do in serving you. 

God bless you. Strength for Today's Pastor is sponsored by Poimen Ministries. You can find us at PoimenMinistries.com. That's spelled P-O-I-M-E-N-Ministries.com. If something in today's program prompts a question or comment, or if you have a topic idea for a future episode, just shoot us an email at StrongerPastors@gmail.com. That's StrongerPastors@gmail.com. May the Lord bless you as you serve Him, His pastors, and His church.