CGN's Partnership with Western Seminary: A Discussion with Andrew Pack

[00:00:02] I planted a church in Seattle and honestly felt kind of like alone as a pastor on the front line had very few friends in a dark city like that.

[00:00:11] And in coming to Western, it didn't change my theology per se. It did push me a little bit but I was more grounded and I had this team, this faculty, this think tank around me.

[00:00:23] That all of a sudden we're helping me process and think through these really big questions, we were right on 45th, right in the middle of Seattle.

[00:00:30] And so, you know, I was a punk rock kid that got saved and a tattoo shop and just wanted people to get saved. And that's why we planted a church. Love it.

[00:00:39] And it turns out that's like, there's a moment where that's awesome, there's a moment where you realize there's a lot of stuff I just don't actually know. And seminary is not for everybody. There is no biblical mandate.

[00:00:49] However, I do think it's a huge benefit to get that kind of training. Welcome to the CGN podcast. My name is Nick Kady. I'm the pastor of Whitefield's Community Church in Longmont, Colorado and along with Pastor Brian Broderson, I will be your host this season.

[00:01:07] The purpose of this podcast is to share with you the stories of what God is doing through the Calvary Global Network. CGN is a family of churches working together to proclaim the gospel, make disciples and plant churches.

[00:01:20] In this episode and the previous one, we are highlighting some of the training resources that we provide in order to help equip people to carry out that mission. In this episode, we speak with Dr. Andrew Pack. Andrew is a professor and dean at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon.

[00:01:38] Andrew shares about his journey of church planting and how that led him to seminary. He also answers questions people have asked in regard to studying at Western and about the benefits and potential pitfalls of a seminary education. Here's the episode.

[00:01:57] But Andrew Pack, thanks so much for being on the CGN podcast today. My pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. Andrew, would you please introduce yourself to our listeners?

[00:02:07] Yeah, so I am the assistant professor of Christian Formation and the Associate Dean at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon. Great. And for the last couple years, we have had a partnership with Western Seminary as CGN. We've had a lot of students go through that.

[00:02:24] So Pastor Brian, what do you think? What would you say to somebody who says, like in the Calvary Chapel world who says, you know, I've been a pastor for a long time and been teaching the Bible verse by verse. Why is there now this focus on seminary education?

[00:02:39] Yeah, that's a good question. It's a fair question. And on one level, I don't think there's a focus. It's not like we're saying, hey, all of you guys now need to go get a seminary education.

[00:02:55] I think what's happened is the Lord has led some of us in that direction and we've all benefited from it and really enjoyed it. And so we just kind of want to spread the good news about, you know, the seminary can be a great, great experience.

[00:03:16] And I know, you know, with my son, char, he was the first one to go into a cohort with Gary Berchier's back some years ago. Before this EGN partnership started and that was really beneficial to him.

[00:03:31] And then I ended up going into a Wheaton graduate cohort which I ended up having a really tremendous experience there. And then subsequently my wife, you know, she went through the Western program and a number of friends have.

[00:03:46] And I think everyone has really benefited from it in significant ways. And it's not nobody's walked away with a different theology. But I think what I experienced at Wheaton and I think what's happening with the Western cohort is that you know you're just expanding your horizons.

[00:04:05] You're broadening your understanding, you're realizing that my goodness the, you know, the world of biblical orthodoxy is much bigger than we tend to think. You know, we sometimes tend to think that it's just exclusively in our particular group of people.

[00:04:23] And yet you realize, oh, no, there's lots of lots of people out there who love Jesus love the scriptures are committed. Deeply to, you know, maintaining the integrity of scripture and going deep and all of that so it's yeah I.

[00:04:42] Again, it's not mandated. We don't even have a mandate for our pastors to have any formal education, you know, Calvary Chapel.

[00:04:50] But I think for some we would, we would highly recommend it and we recognize that some people are more inclined toward a little bit more of an academic.

[00:05:01] It environment to learn in where are you not everybody's that way. So we respect that, but for the ones who are I'm really glad that we have a place that we can point them to that we're confident that they're going to come out of it's stronger than they were when they went in.

[00:05:20] Yeah. Andrew, what do you think are some of the benefits of seminary education like who is it for and what benefits could someone derive from it?

[00:05:30] Yeah, I mean, I think I almost start with my own story. So I started as a pastor and then I did seminary not like Brian like so I planted a church in Seattle and honestly felt kind of like alone as a pastor on the front line had very few friends in a dark city like that.

[00:05:46] And in coming to Western, I was a Western student, by the way, I did a THM and an MABTS at Western.

[00:05:53] It didn't change my theology per se. It did push me a little bit but I was more grounded and I had this team, this faculty team, this think tank around me that all of a sudden we're helping me process and think through these really big questions.

[00:06:08] Right on 45th, right in the middle of Seattle. And so there's this, this you know I was a punk rock kid that got saved and I tattoo shop and just wanted people to get saved and that's why we planted a church love it and it turns out that's like

[00:06:23] There's a moment where that's awesome, there's a moment where you realize there's a lot of stuff I just don't actually know.

[00:06:28] And then sitting with you know Gary Brishier so I'm so thankful to have as a colleague but was my teacher with Todd Miles, these other guys that I get to work with now who had such a high view of Jesus and such a high view of the scripture.

[00:06:44] And it just helped me think really, really deeply and it transformed my own life which helped me to see yeah like Brian was saying seminary is not for everybody and there is no biblical mandate for a pastor to have.

[00:06:56] Well lovingly gently push against my brothers and sisters who are in denomination, so it's a you must have a MDiv to be a successful pastor. I think it would be wrong for us to say that.

[00:07:08] However, I do think it's a huge benefit to get that kind of training if you have the opportunity if you have the means.

[00:07:14] And I think it's great for men and women to come and be built up and kick the tires on their own convictions to as you know I just echo a Brian said that it turns out when you spend time in seminary you really realize how many wonderful, lovely, godly, Jesus loving people.

[00:07:33] I told that truth center and actually disagree on some really important things and there's even think I think something special in 2024.

[00:07:41] That we can actually all be in the room together. I think as Christians we should be known as the people who can like have coffee with anybody we should be lovers of peace and lovers of people who are different than us and if we can't do that together as as believers how do we have anything to offer the world.

[00:07:57] And so seminary creates this unique context where within this orthodox boundary people can get trained so pastors can get trained but I've had you know people who say I just want to be the best women's disciple maker who ever lived.

[00:08:11] Great praise the Lord come get trained we've had folks who say yeah I don't want to be a pastor but I want to I want to be a missionary in the marketplace and this will help me as I as I run my, you know whatever business

[00:08:25] to think deeply and bring the gospel to bear in the lives of non-Christian people and so there's there's a whole litany of people I think it is really helpful in any group in any network or anything for some of us to have done this kind of thing.

[00:08:38] It does help and it helps other people when it helps our churches but it's also people who can kind of thrive in that academic environment while getting.

[00:08:48] Have their love for Jesus stoked and their love for the church stoked and their love for the lost stoked by doing that kind of rigorous training so you know the short answer I guess is everybody.

[00:08:59] That's that's great you know and something you just said I think is is really interesting I had a conversation some years ago I had the opportunity to help sort of found a seminary and I was a chairman of the board for a number of years.

[00:09:13] And and somebody asked me they were a bit skeptical and suspicious and and worried about you know why why are you doing that we in a wide why do you think that's a good idea and I just said well you know.

[00:09:26] Okay we're all Bible teachers yes and we we've been teaching the Bible for a long time but.

[00:09:32] And did have you stopped to think that we have dependent on scholars I mean we have we all have library so we all have wonderful books that we love and many of them are written by scholars.

[00:09:44] And I think that it's a good idea to help train up new scholars for new generations and when I put it in that perspective they said oh yeah you know because I think a lot of times.

[00:09:56] Like the the anti seminary people they just forget that they actually do depend on people who with the seminary probably at some point in their lives you know yeah that's right.

[00:10:08] Yeah and I could tell you a little bit of my story too it's similar to to yours Andrew that I planted a church I was 21 when I planted the church is in Hungary.

[00:10:17] And I remember teaching and especially that first season of being like the lead pastor and teaching often.

[00:10:24] And then reading a lot of commentaries and coming to this place is almost a crisis of faith where I was like how do I know that I'm not just parading stuff I've read how do I know that I actually believe these things.

[00:10:37] And I haven't actually like looked into them like I've just I'm just maybe I just read the this book and I'm parading with this book says because it's the book I had access to but what if I had access to a different book.

[00:10:48] And I have and I'll read that there's a controversy about something but I've never actually entered into the controversy I'm just parading someone else's thoughts kind of like what you're saying right and that we're depending on the scholars.

[00:10:58] And I felt like in a way what I was presenting was really just a facade and it didn't have depth behind it and so that that was what led me and I initially just kind of like put my toes in the water if you will like I was like okay I'm just going to take a seminary class on the gospel of Luke just so I'll understand that and then I was like well that was pretty good.

[00:11:17] And then I just kept going and then you're like well I just won't get the paper and then that was actually kind of fun and maybe I'll just do another one so I was how I ended up doing it but yeah so I know that there's a catch phrase that I've heard a lot in Calvary Chapel circles and that is that God.

[00:11:33] God I'm sorry God doesn't call the equipped God equips the called and there can be this idea that sometimes people go to seminary and they're not necessarily called and then they just get a paper and they start serving somewhere because they have a paper and the person who perhaps is called that is overlooked in the process.

[00:11:53] Well what would either of you say to that. I think it's a danger. I think it's when we're concerned with that Western. We care deeply, I mean you know full disclosure assistant professor of Christian formation so I'm thinking about these all the time like.

[00:12:07] It's not enough that we learn things about the Bible and can give a seminary lecture and a pulpit we actually need to preach about Jesus in such a way that it hits people's hearts and you can have a piece of paper that says great you know Greek and you know Hebrew and you did her minudics and you draw all these things and you can be a faker and.

[00:12:22] You can be you can be someone who doesn't like preach to the heart who doesn't. Connect the gospel real life you can you can be an ivory tower scholar who doesn't know any non Christian people who doesn't take that seminary education apply it to your personal evangelism.

[00:12:37] Those things are all possible and we try and do everything we can in a in a myriad of ways to try and kind of even sort that out a little bit.

[00:12:45] Frankly one of the things I love and I know this is the C.G. and POSC podcast so I have to say this but I don't like one of the things I love about when I find out that there's a C.G. and student one of my classes.

[00:12:56] I think I can say this pretty much to the to the individual that these are all people who are interested in that practical scholarship.

[00:13:06] Yeah we're thinking big thoughts we're thinking deep thoughts but it has to go somewhere and so for us we're trying to think about how does every class go somewhere how does every class. POSC is to evangelize how does every class.

[00:13:17] POSC is not just to be preachers of the truth but people who embody the truth and help our congregations embody the truth and it's but I agree on the equipped thing like. I think that's the problem is is that when you when you live in a worldly way.

[00:13:32] You think oh they've got an MD if that makes them better than this other cap who has been a pastor for 20 years. What do you have but what does his life look like? What does his marriage?

[00:13:41] You know what does his person's stuff look like and how do they when they talk can I tell like it says an X word that they've been with Jesus because you can have an MDive and not have been with Jesus.

[00:13:52] And and the you know I don't know so I don't know that's just some of my initial thoughts there. Yeah, Pastor Ryan what do you think?

[00:14:00] I mean calling this is a big theme of mine for a long time and it's in addressing anybody who's a spirant to ministry or even as in ministry. You know you want to make sure of your calling.

[00:14:16] I mean everything I think in the end goes back to that if got us call to you then of course a quickiness important.

[00:14:24] But you could get all the like you know like Andrew is saying you could get all of the degrees and study all of the nuances of various theologies.

[00:14:37] But if you're not called then there's going to be a huge disconnect there because the calling of course comes with an equipping that no one can give us except the Lord himself.

[00:14:51] That's the you know that's the big equip right we need to be empowered by the Holy Spirit and without that then you're you're kind of just going to spin your wheels.

[00:15:02] Assuming that that is there go beyond that to get equipped and so we're talking about various ways to do that.

[00:15:11] And I thought about this over the years that again not everybody is cut out for a formal education we all have to be educated but we get educated in different ways.

[00:15:22] I remember reading years ago about deal moody who just you know I think he had a fourth grade education and he was like I who didn't really like to read he wasn't a reader.

[00:15:34] You know and ironically he starts these institutions and things like this but you know the way moody studied is he was such a people person.

[00:15:42] He would just find the smartest guy in the room and sit down and just pick their brain and then he would you know take away the stuff that he thought was valuable and then he would move on to the next guy.

[00:15:53] And I thought well that was an interesting education that he got but he definitely had an education it wasn't a formal one but it was an education so.

[00:16:03] So again it goes back to even even with this topic that we're talking about and I think the beautiful thing that's happened with with CGN is that we have recognized that some people actually are called to get a formal education so and we want to facilitate that if we can.

[00:16:20] What about the person who would say you know I can just read stuff on my own I can just be deal moody and just talk to smart people like why why by other why about her you know going through a program paying money etc.

[00:16:34] Well I think this is you know at least this is risky but of course that I think I have said already like you don't actually have to go to seminary you can actually do that some people are auto direct some people.

[00:16:44] Can get lost in the library I think there's I think you want to be careful with your posture in there because for some that's going to say you know what.

[00:16:51] I live far from a seminary I know I'm not the best in online thing I don't have the money I'm going to buy these books and I'm going to try and get with every godly pastor I can every godly person I can it learn as much as I can and so cup as much as I can to be the best equipped minister that I can.

[00:17:07] I think if it says I'm smarter than everybody at seminary and I don't need anyone's help well then I'm just sort of concerned for that individual in their ministry anyways so we do live in the world of YouTube I think Nick you are kind of what you were leading to like.

[00:17:24] YouTube yeah there's plenty of theology on YouTube and a lot of it's awful you know I mean like and even kind of you know I don't know there's still out there there's a whole other thing we could talk about there I suppose but.

[00:17:35] So I think it kind of depends on the individuals heart disposition with that and also like they're gifting I remember when I asked about doing a T. H. M. at Western asked Mark Cortez is now we didn't.

[00:17:46] I said I don't know should I do a T. H. M. at Western's like what you could do a T. H. M. without Western here's what it looked like.

[00:17:52] But but then you're not going to spend time with these these folks who think about the stuff a lot and they'll help you but you know you could do it like it was just so refreshing also to hear that to be like yeah you could do it we think we offer something that will help you and that's what we think we think Western we can help people.

[00:18:08] But you could read a bunch of books that's okay too I guess yeah yeah and and you know I did that I did that for years not with not necessarily with that mentality but I did.

[00:18:19] I depended on my own research and reading and you know conversations and so forth but I always deep down inside had this idea that you know I would love to sit in a room with some other people.

[00:18:35] And I would love to have the opportunity to exchange I would love to have the you know you can read a book but you can't really ask the book any questions at least it's not going to.

[00:18:48] This is a different point to your particular question so that was something that for many, many years I I longed for that kind of experience and that's what I found for me. that was really my big takeaway from seminar.

[00:19:01] You know, it was going through with a group of a dozen men being together for four years and having, you know, brilliant godly professors that we could just end up having a two-hour conversation with about a particular topic that we were all, you know, curious about.

[00:19:18] So that was a big takeaway for me. Yeah. And for me, I think one of the big ones that's related to what you've both said is that it forced me to read things that I wouldn't have chosen to read if it was just up to me.

[00:19:32] It introduced me to ideas and conversations, and it caused me a read stuff that I disagreed with and taught me how to critically engage with ideas. And I thought that was very valuable.

[00:19:45] So Andrew, let's say, you know, somebody listen to this, what could you tell them about the partnership between C.G. and Western? About how many students have gone through and what does it look like? Yeah. So for different students, it looks different. It's my interesting about 150 students

[00:20:01] go through the program. So for some we have, we've done cohorts in the past with, for example, with Gary Bushiers and I know we're hoping to do some in the future maybe. We have sort of three main ways we deliver content for maybe four.

[00:20:14] We do these cohorts which are really wonderful and it's brilliant because you really, you get this camaraderie even with the people in the cohort. And in this I happen for everybody in seminary, hopefully.

[00:20:23] You walk away with this group of people that you can call four years later and say, I really need prayer for this or what would you do with this? Or how would you think about this?

[00:20:30] I still rely on people I went to seminary with from time to time and different things. And those relationships are a gift. We also do a lot of synchronous stuff and we do a lot of traditional, you think of online, but we do more and more synchronous engagement.

[00:20:44] So even if you're an online, like when I teach an online spiritual formation class, I also do Zoom meetings with students. And the amazing thing about the Holy Spirit is that though we're separated by space, we're not separated by time and by the spirit.

[00:20:57] And there is this thing that happens. And so you have that student. I mean, I've had these Zoom calls of someone in China and someone in France and someone in Montana all the same time and God does these mighty things and brings us different perspectives.

[00:21:11] There's a lot of different ways a student can kind of execute their program. And we're growing in different things. We're developing more intercultural stuff and more spiritual formation stuff and different wonderful programs.

[00:21:24] So the great thing is that we have a great partnership with CGN, which means students who are CGN get a tuition discount which is super helpful. And I love that and I love that partnership there. But yeah, there's a lot of ways that can get done.

[00:21:39] But hopefully the student grows in the gospel and I love for the Lord and what you're on mission. Yeah. And the cohort model in person cohort model has been really, really just a wonderful experience for all the people that I know that have gone through it.

[00:21:55] But we have a number of students who are living overseas and so they're not able to do the in-person thing. And yet they're all, you know, they're in a Zoom cohort sort of a context maybe or just a Zoom classroom.

[00:22:10] And they've all really felt that even though they're separated by space, they're connecting in beautiful ways and yeah, it's been really good. And one of the things that we really try and do is really try and say, hey, as faculty members, we're available.

[00:22:28] Even if you're overseas or whatever, call us. Let's get a Zoom meeting. Let's let's, if we're not going to run into each other down the hall. Let's talk. Let's, let's figure stuff out. Let's anyways. Yeah. And what are the degrees that are available through this partnership or through

[00:22:44] Western? Our main sort of four degrees we have the, with a Masters of Arts in the political leadership, which is predominantly sort of what we call the Gary Cohearts, the Gary Bershiers Engineer Cohearts, which are wonderful, which are for ministry leaders who have about at least

[00:23:00] half a decade of pastoral experience. So you're in with these men and women who have, they bring something special into the fuel mixture at that point in time. And those are 36 degree credit program.

[00:23:10] Students can then take those credits and apply them to our other three big theology degrees, which we are MDiv, which is a classic, you know, longer degree, we're going to do Greek, and you're going to do Hebrew and Bible and theology.

[00:23:21] And then we have the MABTS, which is geared a little more academic, but we are focused on transformation. So even though the focus is Bible and theology, we still want that to have that gospel center transformational element to it.

[00:23:34] And then I'm the director of the Master of Arts and Ministry Leadership, and we're in the midst of revamping that program to really think about how do we best serve that sort of practical scholar or that pastor at theologian, that person who can really hold in one hand

[00:23:49] the deep theological truths of the faith, but then really apply them in the context of their tradition and their church and their community in a way that has a real boots on the ground, whatever meeting the road, reality to it.

[00:24:03] We're building a couple of new tracks in that program which are pretty neat too. Excellent. I got a question from a Calvich album pastor actually just yesterday before we're recording. And here's what he asked me.

[00:24:14] He said, I'm putting one of my pastors and my church through the Western program. I just want to know, is there anything different that I should be aware of between what Western teaches and what we've received or value as Calvich album?

[00:24:29] Well, the great thing about a faculty is that a faculty can't be monolith or shouldn't be. I guess it's the other way. Shouldn't be monolithic. So where one faculty member kind of sits related to the Calvich album tradition may be different from faculty member to faculty member.

[00:24:47] I think the things that I understand. So I've never been full disclosure. I've never been part of a Calvich album for church, but I've had really good friends in Calvich Chapel. My best friend as a best pastor friend when we were planting, that was most close with

[00:25:02] well you guys have no Jordan Taylor who's who's planting up there at the time and he was just he was the guy that like if things were broken I could get coffee with him so anyways

[00:25:11] that's probably a whole other story but you know so we have a high view of Jesus. We have a high view of scripture. We have a high view of the preach Word of God. I give as a sort of non-denominational type person where I kind of sit.

[00:25:25] I give Calvich Chapel rightly the credit for really bringing expository of mine by line preaching into the to the main conversation last 50 years and that's something that like is Western. We highly value that kind of preaching it here at any Calvich Chapel church on a given Sunday.

[00:25:42] So we have these things that we really value. I think where you might find some like you may find some variation like we all sit in the general same like eschatological tradition but you might find some variation in what's kind of the

[00:25:55] traditional Calvich Chapel stance there but that's not a huge emphasis but but other than that I actually think Western and Calvich are we really are excited to have traditions that are not

[00:26:07] totally like kind of layst up with us if you will but I actually think Calvich is a great theological fit personally. Now I'm also kind of an optimist and I'm the one sitting in the teacher seat so

[00:26:17] I'm like no no it's all good. It all works here you know I think another place where there might be some difference so I would consider myself to be a continuationist in terms of the work of the

[00:26:25] spirit I think there's some variation across our faculty where people sit in the operation of the spirit at this point in time but but again I don't think any of these are like problematic I think they're actually good enhancements when you're in the classroom community together.

[00:26:39] Yeah and it's not like you know it's not like you have to sign up for yeah that particular view you yeah these were sitting in the classroom and listen and go okay

[00:26:49] with that you know I had somebody recently asking me about a view you know the Gary holds and the assumption that the guy was making was that Oh Calvich Chapel is now switch to Gary's view

[00:27:03] and I said oh no not at all I said that's that's Gary's view I personally don't agree with Gary on that but nobody say you have to get on board with his perspective you you know

[00:27:17] you you if you're convicted in another direction you just maintain your conviction on that so one of the things I have to tell students is hey I'm gonna sign you a bunch of books

[00:27:26] don't think that I agree with everything in the books I'm gonna sign you because I know and turns out the more I write the more I disagree with myself and and so I would say yeah

[00:27:35] we're my aim with a student is not the you dot my view but that your view comes so clearly derived from scripture and glorifies the name of Jesus while you hold it

[00:27:45] and that that's that's my aim as a teacher do you do you find it in the word like because there's a lot of quote unquote biblical views that aren't my view that I will defend as an orthodox biblical position held by brothers and sisters who earnestly love Jesus

[00:28:00] that isn't actually my my view and that's fine I think I think people could also be a little mellower about a lot of the stuff yes yeah I agree don't say good call all right final question

[00:28:11] for you both one of the things that I always heard before I went to seminary and as I started going people used to kind of jokingly say you know seminary is like cemetery for the soul

[00:28:23] young people go in hoping to grow in their faith and they come out having loss their faith and what would you say to that what would your response be so I teach a class called introduction of ministry formation we try to have students take their first semester

[00:28:40] we talk about the difference between like reading the Bible for the purpose of spiritual growth and how then you how that works out in your life as a scholar and we spent a lot of time

[00:28:51] like trying to help people see all the different activities including like memorizing Greek folkabwards or whatever as an activity in spiritual growth and and I think when when learning becomes the end in itself rather than growing in our love for Jesus that actually does something

[00:29:06] bad to our souls frankly and so I think it does happen with some people however I think the main experience Western students have and I think the experience I always experienced with students I am saying that because you know if there's always an outlier somewhere potentially

[00:29:22] but at the end of the day students grow in their faith they grow in the gospel they grow in the reality of who Jesus is because we're always trying to connect faith and practice we're always trying to connect scholarship with worship we're always trying to connect our confession

[00:29:35] about Jesus with what that actually means as we grow in love for God grow in love for people grow in love for others that there's always a spiritual dynamic to everything we're doing and I think

[00:29:45] if you stop and you kind of treat theology like a lab frog that's just kind of dead that sucks the life out of the experience and it is hard because obviously you have this weird experience where

[00:29:56] you're you're doing homework and your homework's Bible and it's hard as humans we don't do well with breaking things up in our minds like okay I'm reading my Bible for worship I'm reading my

[00:30:07] Bible for a paper I have to turn into midnight or I fail the class that can do something to us if we're not careful but what we think we need to help students is train there our seem

[00:30:15] to understand that yeah that paper you have to turn in and it has to be in by this time where you don't pass the class is still an act of worship this is still something that glorifies Jesus

[00:30:25] and I think in part having teachers who are God glorifying scholars who make it very in their scholarship to do the same I think I think that's what permeates the vibe of Western

[00:30:35] and helps get down into the DNA and into the fuel mixture and help students grow in that way yeah that's really good best of writing any thoughts on that one yeah maybe just a little bit um yeah I think that you know that's kind of just

[00:30:51] I don't know that the people who say that have ever really thought deeply about it I think it's almost they're just echoing something that they heard you know somebody else and probably from another generation ago because I do think there was a period in

[00:31:09] you know let's just say back you know 20 to 50 years ago where a lot of seminaries did take a a real swing toward liberal views and people were finding that they were getting

[00:31:22] racked in their faith a good friend I remember a good friend had an opportunity to go to Princeton Princeton theological you know the theological part of it and everybody warned them not to go

[00:31:35] because you know they they saw it as a real risk he ended up going he did great he's a professor at Talbot seminary in Biola now but so I think there was a time and they're probably still

[00:31:48] as a time there are seminaries you could go to that would record your faith for sure but they're not any that we're gonna recommend yeah yeah yeah and you know so we're not

[00:31:57] partnering with those those radically you know the role kind of thing so so I do I do think it's it's just something that you know somebody heard it and it sounded clever and you

[00:32:10] know and we don't need seminary anyway but but I think if you stop and think about it then man thank God thank God there are great seminaries and I think Western you know that's the

[00:32:22] reason why we have the partnership I think Western is a great institution with a long history of conservative theological position so I don't think in Western history they ever did to big swing toward liberalism and so you guys have that long track record and you're still

[00:32:40] holding fast to that and I think that that's one of the reasons why we're excited about the partnership that we have so Andrew if someone is wanting to find more information or get in touch

[00:32:54] what's the process look like yeah Western seminary.edu has a lot of resources we have folks that we have for our admissions people who it is their joy quite literally to walk people through

[00:33:05] this experience one of the fun things that people can do it is come to a preview day and come for the day you sit in on a class and you hang out with students and you hang out with professors

[00:33:14] or or reach out and just come up for a visit sometime even if there's not a preview day one of my favorite things when someone knocks on my office store and says hey there's a student

[00:33:22] who'd like to come talk to you about Western and we're the kind of school that we're just a very open door school our faculty are very open door faculty and we just we're excited about what

[00:33:34] we do we love what we do and we love when people grow in their knowledge of the Lord and their ability to help people and so our website's an easy you know the easy 20 24 end of course but

[00:33:47] if there's a little admissions button you click and someone will love to walk you through all the the different parts and pieces of it and they'll walk you through the CGM. Yep absolutely

[00:33:58] oh yeah so if you call and say I'm a CGM person and I need some help they'll know exactly how to route you help you sign you up and you know email me email you until you tell them to stop

[00:34:10] emailing you and bother you and try and convince you to come join us at Western. Yeah and I think that on our on our website cgn.org there's cdn.org slash western is the way you get

[00:34:22] directly connected to the application and information about what the program is like Andrew thanks so much for your time today of course thanks for having me. Thanks for listening to this season of the CGM podcast in our next episode Pastor Brian and I will be speaking with pastor

[00:34:42] Wesley Town. Wes has planted two churches both in university cities and he's also the founder of better days an organization seeking to bring hope and resources to those struggling with personal suffering and mental health. New episodes are released every two weeks so make sure you subscribe

[00:35:00] to the podcast so those episodes will be delivered to your device as soon as they come out. We'd love to hear your feedback on these episodes you can email us at cgn at calvarychapel.com and if you'd like

[00:35:11] to support this podcast one of the best ways you can do that is by giving us a rating and review on your podcast app written reviews are particularly helpful in helping boost this content so

[00:35:23] other people can find it and benefit from it. Until next time God bless you