How to Faithfully Engage the Contemporary Culture - with Justin Thomas

[00:00:00] Hi Pastor Brian Broterson here with an invite to the CGN International Conference that is taking place on the campus of Calvary Chapel, because Damesa June 23rd through the 26th we're going to have a fantastic time together.

[00:00:17] Our theme this year is Hope Suffering and Glory. We're going to be looking at the first episode of Peter. We've got some amazing speakers, we've got nine main sessions, we've got lots and lots of workshops, we're going to panel discussions, we'll have great times of food and fellowship,

[00:00:36] times of worship and prayer, and we would love you to be part of that. So if you'd like to join us, you can get registered at conference.com,

[00:00:49] and the sooner you do that, the better. So come on out and join us for the CGN International Conference June 23rd through the 26th conference. Calvary Chapel.com look forward to seeing you then.

[00:01:08] If we're talking about addressing cultural issues, and if especially if we're doing as we're committed to do as CGN addressing cultural issues from the scriptures, then traditionally we've just called that the efficiency of scripture.

[00:01:22] It's a recognition that although the Bible was written in one culture and one place at one time, it addresses all the problems that we're facing today, and that does involve what we sometimes call contextualization.

[00:01:36] Because the time is different, because the culture is different, there are questions of, okay, so how do we actually take these biblical principles and apply them in this day and age?

[00:01:47] Welcome to the CGN podcast. My name is Nick Kady, I'm the pastor of Whitefield's Community Church in Longmont, Colorado and along with Pastor Brian Roterson, I will be your host this season.

[00:01:58] The purpose of this podcast is to share with you the stories of what God is doing through Calvary Global Network. In this episode we speak with Pastor Justin Thomas, Justin is the President of Calvary Chapel Bible College in Twin Peaks, California.

[00:02:13] Prior to leading the Bible College, Justin was the founding pastor of Calvary, the Hill in the Capitol Hill neighborhood of Seattle, Washington. In this discussion, Pastor Brian and I speak with Justin about the topic of cultural engagement. How should Christians

[00:02:29] and ministry leaders think about and relate to the surrounding culture in the place where we live? Is it possible to over-emphasize the need for cultural understanding and engagement? How has Calvary Chapel approached this topic in the past?

[00:02:45] Justin will be teaching one of the main sessions at this year's CGN International Conference, happening June 23rd through 26th at Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa. We'd love for you to be there, you can find more information at conference.calvarychapel.com. Here's the episode. There you guys. Hello.

[00:03:06] Hey Nick. On this episode we're going to be talking about cultural engagement and Justin I think you've right guy for that discussion. I'll tell you why I want to talk about this

[00:03:17] because one time I heard a critique of CGN and it was they said that CGN's two focused on culture. When instead of talking about culture, we should just be preaching the word. What would you say that Justin?

[00:03:34] Well, I think what they mean by engaging the cultures is really important but if we're talking about addressing cultural issues and especially if we're doing as we're committed to do as CGN addressing cultural issues from the scriptures, then traditionally we've just called that the

[00:03:50] efficiency of scripture. It's a recognition that although the Bible was written in one culture in one place at one time it addresses all the problems that we're facing today and that does involve what we sometimes call contextualization because the time is different because the

[00:04:08] culture is different. There are questions of okay so how do we actually take these biblical principles and apply them in this day and age? So in trying to address new problems, there's a fundamentalist instinct and there's a progressive instinct. And so the fundamentalist

[00:04:23] instinct says we have all the answers because the Bible is sufficient and it's been amazing at holding that line but it's often not opened in new questions or it provides old answers or pad answers to new questions that aren't really a good fit. Progressives on the other hands

[00:04:39] embrace all the questions of the day, that's what they most want to talk about but they will go anywhere but the Bible for answers and so no surprise they come up with the same answers

[00:04:49] the culture offers. I would suggest that contextualization requires that you invite the new questions and you go to the Bible for answers. And so yes you are engaging the culture but you're also making the scriptures significant to the people who are facing these problems wrestling these

[00:05:09] questions or asking what would it cost to follow Jesus? First of all I've heard even some people criticize the idea of contextualization by saying that it's a slippery slope that we're dealing with a gospel that hasn't changed scriptures that have not changed therefore why do we need

[00:05:30] contextualization? What would you say? Well let me back up for a second and just and that was a great response but I would also challenge those who say that we that were over-inversizing cultural engagement. I don't think we're doing that I think the thing about let's talk about

[00:05:53] cover-chouple historically you know what Chuck did of course because he's kind of the you know the founder of cover-chouple you know Chuck was making the Bible it was speaking to a young generation of countercultural people at the time because for them it was resonating with the moment

[00:06:14] it wasn't that they were just fascinated with ancient stories about what was happening in the land of Israel 2000 years ago they were finding relevance for the the issues of the day and they

[00:06:26] were finding the Bible let's see answer so I think we've just followed on in that tradition and absolutely scripture doesn't change but culture does change and so because culture changes contextualization

[00:06:41] just in a simplest form it means we are applying the scriptures to the moment we're not applying them you know it is it's 2024 so if I'm thinking of I was pastoring churches in the 1980s the culture has

[00:07:02] changed radically in the 1980s so if I'm if I'm approaching it with sort of the lens of the 1980s I'm going to be asking questions or you know trying to answer questions nobody's asking things like that so

[00:07:17] contextualization means we want we want to speak to the moment and we believe in the scriptures they do that you know God's word is eternal it's never outdated it's always applicable to the time

[00:07:33] so I know I think sometimes people are just afraid of new new ideas and because the word contextualization just sort of popped up and took some people by surprise they automatically think that's got to be

[00:07:47] about it right it's a new word it's not a new concept and it's not a new concept to Calvary Chapel you know I think a lot of the concerns that that the church broadly had about Calvary Chapel in the

[00:07:58] beginning ages they would have said these things you know the the way that music went in Calvary Chapel in the beginning was new and people were concerned that it was a capitulation to culture

[00:08:11] but but oftentimes they were relying on models that also had been acclimatized to the times even Martin Luther you know many of the hymns he wrote he took the tunes from the bar down the street because

[00:08:23] they were already familiar you know and use them to the glory of God and the other thing that I think sometimes gets fuzzy in this is is there's this idea that to reach the culture you have to become

[00:08:36] the culture and that's what we're saying and Chuck is the best model of not doing this you know the the most hippie he got was a Hawaiian shirt that's not the same thing one time I heard him say far

[00:08:47] according but in general he he was very much himself and he was a good guy oh yes yes they were there were minor accommodations sure but but Chuck never stopped being Chuck what he was

[00:09:00] was welcome to people who were different than him and he welcomed them to be who they were in ways that glorified Jesus which is the same thing we do as missionaries when we recognize that they

[00:09:11] need to worship the Lord not in new ways but in ways that incarnate the truth of scripture in their own tongue in their own cultural practice and so the church always struggles with where do the

[00:09:24] lines how do we do this all of those things and I wouldn't fault anyone for for saying maybe you're going too far here or or maybe you're missing something here that's that's actually the challenge

[00:09:36] we all face but everybody has to face this challenge and they always have to encultureate and maybe they enculturate to the 1980s even though it's 2020 that may be the case but they can't

[00:09:46] escape the issue yeah yeah I think I think the mission thing is a good it's a good example because nobody who is serious about missions thinks that you don't contextualize your message to the

[00:10:01] culture that you're in everybody knows that that's a given that's exactly what he have to do so but you can do that domestically as well I mean you can go around the United States and you will

[00:10:14] find a variety of different cultural contact even within a city. And even within a city so you're going to slightly adjust not the scriptures but you're going to adjust your approach or

[00:10:28] method how you're going to relate or communicate and just in the music thing was that was such a big deal at the time you know people really did think that because Chuck was allowing

[00:10:41] guitars and bass and drums into the church this was a surrender to the culture but it proved in the long run to be God doing something fresh like he did in the Reformation with Luther where

[00:10:59] you know we're just taking the instruments up today and we are allowing the gospel to flow through them rather than depending on the instruments from 50 years ago. Yeah I think there are two concerns that come up when people hear the word contextualization aside from it being perhaps

[00:11:17] foreign word to them one would be that people I think often assume that contextualization will eventually lead to compromise of convictions then we won't just change the way we present the message

[00:11:34] but in order to make it more palatable we will change the message in some way and they basically see it as any inevitability if you do that and he thoughts yeah I mean this idea of over contextualization

[00:11:49] is an important concept. That's a real thing. It's a real thing and we could easily pull out examples of both a cross church history as well as here and they've rightly been recognized as heretical as

[00:12:03] forsaking the gospel as all of these things. I think the differences oh and this is how Leslie Newbighing talks about it and Leslie Newbighing was very big on this whole concept when we use

[00:12:15] words like missional he's kind of the grandfather of talking about these things but he points out in the gospel of John when John opens within the beginning was the logos that's a word that's in

[00:12:27] use and it has massive cultural weight and it's a dangerous word because when you use it especially about Jesus people are going to get the wrong idea especially the not sticks their idea of the

[00:12:40] logos is separate from the world that is up there is pure and spiritual down here as physical we can bad and John uses that word but then he says and the logos became flesh and when he does

[00:12:54] that he's speaking their language to convey the message of the gospel and you could say the same thing about Acts 17 with Paul and Athens he takes the ideas and even quotes from Socratic teachers,

[00:13:07] from Greek philosophers but he challenges in their own word their own thinking and instead he preaches Christ in the resurrection and so yeah we would call that losing the message in translation if we're trying to communicate the gospel that's up failure to communicate saying what the

[00:13:24] culture is saying is not contextualization it's an echo but saying the scriptures in way people way people would understand and translations are good way to see this you know the move from the king James to the new king James is still controversial and small little facets of Christianity

[00:13:39] but what the recognition is is that this language isn't the language of the day so it doesn't communicate the gospel well and I would suggest again that Calvary Chapel is not only built on this

[00:13:52] premise but even even Chuck's constant affirmation of the freedom of churches was a recognition to follow the spirit and accommodate the people you were trying to teach to not in dumbing down

[00:14:05] or watering down the message but in making the message clear yeah and you know to respond to the idea that it's inevitable I think it's only inevitable if you lose your rudder within the scripture

[00:14:21] you know so if you're willing to move away from scripture to accommodate culture then yes this is inevitable if you're anchored in scripture it's not inevitable because you're gonna there's a certain

[00:14:34] point where you're gonna realize well you know this is as far as we can go with the culture and we can't go any further I mean I think you know cultural relevance is another way that this has been

[00:14:44] yeah referred to and and I mean if you just think about it who doesn't want to be relevant to you know who wants to stand up and say something that's completely irrelevant meaning nobody knows

[00:14:55] really what you're talking about nobody wants to do what even if you look in the book of acts and you look at the Jerusalem Council and the wrestling to do with Gentiles like not only is this a cultural

[00:15:07] but a unique one because if there was a culture we were going to ratify and say this is God's culture and it should be done this way forever it was Judaism it was Israel it's the one that's

[00:15:18] baked into the Old Testament and yet there was still this holy spirit led recognition that Gentiles didn't have to become Jews and and again that is the essence of Calvary Chapel that hippies didn't have to become the man to find Jesus that right where they were and they

[00:15:36] were gonna change you can't find Jesus and not change but they could change as hippies they didn't have to change before Jesus you know um and uh Laman Sane in his book translating the message

[00:15:50] argues this is why Christianity has grown and thrived and even in the context of colonialism and all the questions we have today about how missions was tied to the expansion of empires

[00:16:02] he says yeah but the gospel when it was translated into those nations gave them a sense of independence rejuvenation that is also a part of the story because that's the power of the scriptures that when they're rightly understood they transform lives right where they are

[00:16:20] so the i mentioned that was the first pushback right that contextualization inevitably leads to compromise i think the second pushback i get is the idea that you can be a student of culture

[00:16:35] at the expense of being a student of scripture so let's say we have conferences and our conferences just all about studying culture or should they be not instead focused on studying the scriptures

[00:16:52] i i don't think it's in either or i think inevitably you have to you know you have to know deaude your audience you have to know who you're speaking to not you don't have to know everything

[00:17:04] about them but you have to have points of reference where you connect with them and they connect with you and they relate i mean you know just think about when we give illustrations that are even from

[00:17:14] our own life what are we doing we are building a bridge with people that is we are contextualizing something we're putting it in a context that they're going to relate to this and they're going to

[00:17:27] grasp it so i can just get up and quote scripture but and you know sometimes that will hit the very thing god uses a verse of the Bible to radically transform somebody in an instant but most of the time

[00:17:42] it's through the human experience the scripture coming through that and the person relating to it and saying oh yeah i know what that's like i i've experienced that i feel that so unless you just simply get up and read the Bible if you're going to communicate you are

[00:18:03] going to contextualize to some degree yeah whether you realize it or not i think here's a real flaw i think if we can flip the script for a little bit and question the questions

[00:18:15] the idea i think here is that culture is out there and we're standing outside and the question is do we engage with it but culture is the the lens through which we look through and yeah within

[00:18:27] the church and within the world we have different lenses but our lens is still cultural and if you don't stop and look at the window if you don't recognize if it's clean then you will look

[00:18:43] through it and you'll forget that it's there but it may obscure or enhance your image and so so there's a sense here where part of cultural engagement is not just talking about what they think and what do they believe but since culture is mostly subconscious we don't normally

[00:19:02] think about it we didn't choose our culture it it is just ingrained we're kind of living and breathing it i actually think that a lot of times when this is done best we're actually questioning our

[00:19:16] own assumptions we're actually seeing our own cultural values and weighing them against scripture and if repentance begins at the house of God if revival is when we suddenly understand the gospel in a new way that almost always is the tearing down of cultural idols that have snuck into

[00:19:33] the church and even though even that though is essentially this process of contextualization and and I think that's that's the reality is slippery slope or not the the church starts in the culture that we're saved in we're already there and when we critique older Christianity

[00:19:57] it's because we see too much of the world in their Christian be but they didn't slip into that that's where they started and they couldn't get out of it you know and so I think we are the most

[00:20:07] helpful to our culture when we recognize that their misunderstandings actually we have connections with and so it's actually relevant to us we may not see it at the moment but when we wrestle with how

[00:20:19] scripture solves those problems then with the good news is good again and we can convey it to world because we know personally you know and so yeah and you a minute ago you refer to X 17 I

[00:20:30] think you know the book of X is it gives you great examples of contextualization because when you look at when you look at the preaching in a Jewish context it is very Jewish they're they're speaking

[00:20:44] you know they're using the language of scripture constantly because they know their audience is familiar with this well Paul gets on to Mars Hill and he's speaking to the philosophers there he's not using

[00:20:56] that language not he's not has an entirely discarded it he of course incorporates it but he's also you know I notice that you have this alter to an unknown god I'm gonna talk to you about the unknown god

[00:21:07] then like you mentioned just and he quotes the poets and he quotes you know some people that they would be familiar with I mean he actually refer you know when he says in him we live and move and

[00:21:17] have our being that's a reference to Zeus in the creak culture but Paul's same but what what they said is actually true but it's not true about Zeus it's true about this unknown god that I'm telling you about

[00:21:31] so I sometimes I think that these critiques come from people that really don't understand what it is they're critiquing yeah I think that's true so okay we've talked about the necessity of understanding culture contextualization what are the best ways for us to engage culture as

[00:21:54] Christians as preachers as missionaries church planters disciples and I know that there's a famous model that's been given by Richard Neber so maybe walk us through some thoughts around this maybe share with us the model and then how should we think about our own engagement

[00:22:14] so Neber presents five different models and he gives each one of them a label and actually I think it's helpful to give a little bit before Neber and go all the way back to

[00:22:24] Augustine so he writes this book The City of God and he suggests there's two cities The City of God and City of Men since then basically everyone who's thought about the relationship between the

[00:22:35] world and the church has used Augustine's model and goes okay how but how do those two things and so in some of these spaces those things are clearly distinct and separate and so

[00:22:47] Christ against culture is one of Neber's models and that's like the church and its culture is a walled fortress in the middle of the city of man and they they are there and their present

[00:22:58] they need to be known that they're there but they need to be different distinct and separate entirely and so sometimes even this has manifested in immigration the creation of new countries

[00:23:11] but kind of like Noah getting drunk in his garden the world goes with the church and this is what Augustine argued in the city of God is that the City of Man and City of God are intermingled

[00:23:22] in space and time that's what's unique about these two cities is it's not across the river they actually overlap and are integrated and will be in tell the eternal judgment well just one good interjection is that Neber's models like what he's trying to do there he's not actually

[00:23:37] making recommendations no he's analyzing ways the Christians have historically engaged yeah and giving examples yeah and and some of argued that he's even a little bit fast and loose but what's value about Neber as it gives us a framework and a language to compare approaches and to talk

[00:23:55] about their strengths in fact I think Neber would say as well there's never been a pure expression of one of these camps there there are people who who are strong promoters or associated with one

[00:24:07] of them but everybody does all of these things another thing he points out is that there are certain Bible verses which taken in isolation so the lead you towards one of these models more than the

[00:24:18] other yeah so for example first John is a good example of that Christ against culture if you look at a verse it says do not love the world or anything in the world if anyone loves the world

[00:24:28] of the fathers not in yeah yeah and that that actually is a is a great point when when we go about what scripture says and if we're trying to do the scriptures as a whole then there's always

[00:24:40] going to be attention there's always going to be ambiguity and we have to ask how do you fit this with that and that really is where this wrestling is and so again what we're really talking about here

[00:24:51] isn't so much a philosophy of missions as it is a hermanusical problem it's how do we interpret the scriptures so there's there's the Christ against culture model which is really just

[00:25:01] hold on for dear life and don't be tainted by the world and maybe we could say like that that would be a model that's embodied by for example the omnisch as the imperfect example

[00:25:12] like completely separate yeah and and because of that frozen in time so anything that's new is inherently cultural and so that's one model another one would be Christ and culture in paradox and actually this is this is Martin Luther and so in Luther's language he would say there's

[00:25:32] two kingdoms and so there's Christians who who have the lordship of Christ but government does have a God-given role and and Luke for Luther he sees this primarily in terms of vocation

[00:25:43] as well as in terms of authority and so government has a particular authority the church has a particular authority but we actually live in both worlds we're citizens if you will of both

[00:25:52] citizen as cities and so what Luther suggests is although in our in our personal individual lives we need to follow the sermon on the mount which includes non-retaliation we also need to uphold

[00:26:05] the sword that was given to government and sometimes we have government jobs and so he makes a distinction between non-retaliation as a Christian and capital punishment as a governor and he he knows there's tension in that in fact he says basically a judge who finds himself

[00:26:24] presiding over a case that is going to touch him personally has to recuse himself he says it's a rare miracle that somebody can honor the law and play the part of Christ at the same time

[00:26:36] but the the Christ and culture in paradox model basically says there's a coexistence here but there's somewhat clear domains and distinctions but we have to live in both worlds and so I think one of the ways we see this today is is like a sacred and secular divide

[00:26:54] and so there's my job at work and that has responsibilities and I don't stop being a Christian while I'm at work but it is a different domain and then there's my mission, my ministry, my church

[00:27:03] community and again I I'm still you know a teacher I still bring that career in but there's a shift in identity and priority and so so those are two models another one is and you're

[00:27:19] going to have to help me with the way Christ the Deamer of Culture yeah until it would be is if you're moving your way down a spectrum this would be in the center yeah so so Christry Deamer

[00:27:30] of Culture says that the gospel is so significant that there's going to be renewal that the church should actually change the world although every person who holds this model doesn't believe that

[00:27:41] will be complete till Christ comes back so it's not utopian it doesn't believe that we can have a perfect nation or a perfect place but it does say salt and light will change the world and and so

[00:27:52] we could read history and what happened in the days of Constantine as being the impact of Christianity on the Roman Empire again it's it's not perfect it's warts and all but it is better and so

[00:28:06] oftentimes if Christians are politically engaged they're voting they care about issues this is is a bare minimum part of of this model of engagement who are I'm sorry actually that would be Christry deamer of Culture yeah so transformer of Culture Redeemer of Culture it's the idea that

[00:28:26] Christians should be engaged actively seeking to change the culture yeah and I think you know I think that in some ways we could say that most Christians probably are a mix of some of these in the United States and what all Christians are everywhere. Like for example if

[00:28:44] I would say a lot of evangelicals tend to be in the Christ and culture in paradox one which is what you describe really with Luther and things like that like when you think about like home

[00:28:53] schooling or creating Christian subculture where you say hey listen the world's doing its thing and the church is doing its thing and we're kind of like on different tracks and we're separate but we're not completely separate because we're still trying to engage the culture on some level

[00:29:10] but this is much more like we're going to get involved in trying to make abortion illegal would be a very common way that this plays out. Right it believes that because we know our

[00:29:22] morality is right and God honoring and good for our neighbors that we should actually want to see that morality extended beyond the confines of the church. One way that I've heard the Christ

[00:29:33] and culture in paradox described is if you're heard somebody say hey the world is a sinking ship the job of the church is to be a lifeboat that gets people off of that ship and you wouldn't

[00:29:43] want to like change the curtains on a sinking ship right just let the ship sink and we're going to get in a lifeboat and do our thing. Now I think there's some truth that I think you can back that up

[00:29:55] with scripture but again like you said we want to take a holistic view of scriptures and so yeah the Christ and culture, Christ's former of culture is much more like let's be engaged and see

[00:30:07] things changed now as well. Yeah and this is where I think eschatological views become really significant because your eschatological views determine your engagement in the world right now because it determines what the church is supposed to be about. So again if it's a lifeboat

[00:30:26] then it's just saving souls and not putting food in stomachs, not changing the laws of governments that will pass away, not saving a rainforest because it's all going to burn however we want to express it but it's an eschatological reasoning and this is why as helpful as neighbor

[00:30:42] is I actually think if you just go from Augustine's two cities and Luther's two kingdoms and then finally Oliver O'Donne on O'Donnevins two ages he says that there's a donning of a new age

[00:30:55] and an ending of a current age that are overlapping right now and by bringing in this reality it gives us I think a little bit more flexibility to recognize good things across these models

[00:31:07] as well as limitations and so I would suggest that when the church does engage in culture it recognizes that the good that it can do in this world is real but limited that someday a kingdom

[00:31:20] is going to come that will be perfect and our acts little acts now won't bring about that kingdom however they can reflect that coming kingdom and so in the language of Jonathan Lehman the church is like an eschatological embassy so we're foreigners here and we're representing a

[00:31:36] different nation but not a different nation in location but a different nation in time and so we're living in this world but as ambassadors of a coming world and I've found that to be the most helpful

[00:31:48] here and it maintains that that protection from the danger of over contextualization it maintains the end of the world not of the world recognizing that this world is passing away but also that we aren't just telling people about the coming kingdom we're demonstrating the

[00:32:06] coming kingdom and so we love our neighbor now because we represent a kingdom of love and we seek to be about life because God is about life and one day death will be obliterated and only life will remain

[00:32:22] and so that's the model that's been the most helpful for me but I think that also answers your second question of this is how you keep like Brian said us solid foot in the scriptures because we are not

[00:32:35] of the kingdom of the world we are in the kingdom of the world and what we're called to do here but always represent this coming kingdom you know I think too you mentioned I think that eschatological

[00:32:48] thing is huge and you know today you know there are people that that are really pushing back against say a pre-malinial eschatology but even more so like a rapture or an theology and even blaming me the cultural problems on that idea so it's the idea that

[00:33:08] well Christians are just here to do one thing they hear to evangelize you know synchip model good as many people in the boat as you can the ship's going down so we don't need to think about that

[00:33:19] and so look look how we've left the culture look how we have not really loved our brother look how we allowed for slavery you know look how we allowed for discrimination and all the

[00:33:31] sort of stuff so I do I think more and more that yeah an eschatology is so important when it comes to this and I do think that you know maybe there is some truth to the idea that that dispensational

[00:33:44] eschatology has contributed to it but I don't think it has to absolutely I think it has but I don't think it has not agree because I think you can you can you can believe that Jesus is

[00:33:54] coming at any time but since we don't know when he's coming and we have children and potentially grandchildren and potentially great grandchildren we want to see the kingdom spread today as far

[00:34:06] in ways it can so our descendants can actually live in a livable world and I think that's where maybe we've kind of missed it sometimes and I think that's I think that's a fair criticism from

[00:34:19] from the other side and I do think that it would be helpful if we because you know we're pre-moinable and I think it would be helpful if we balance that out and recognize like

[00:34:32] yeah the kingdom is here now we will not bring it in its fullness it will never come in its fullness till Jesus comes we might expand it for a season and a space and then it might get pushed

[00:34:47] back in another generation but nevertheless in our generation we're going to try to expand it as far as we can knowing ultimately that the Lord is the only one that's going to establish it.

[00:34:55] Yeah and I would suggest the only thing this changes theologically with our belief in the rapture he's just owning the fact that it is at an eruption that if we get caught winding down the clock

[00:35:07] because the rapture could happen we've fallen short of what Jesus commanded us to do we have to watch but we also have to work and that that work again is not because we can do

[00:35:19] something that will last in this world but we can do something that is true in this world and that's why that reflection of the coming age has been so helpful to me. Yeah if you look at the reason why

[00:35:30] Jesus healed people I think that's also very interesting because if you look at it it's a sign of the eschatological hope that we have an temporary sign right last verse is right just to die again. That's right and so Jesus heals people but those things like particularly gospel

[00:35:47] John brings it out they are signs pointing to something else beyond the sign itself and those signs point to the eschatological hope so in other words it's a it's a it's a you're seeing the kingdom break into this world you're seeing a preview of the kingdom in which

[00:36:02] the lame will receive new bodies the blind will see death will be no more etc these are previews breaking in windows if you will and and I think that as we do though work that Jesus given us to

[00:36:16] do carrying on his mission I think it's important that we do those practical helps as a sign of the what is to come as well. Yeah yeah I mean I think bare minimum I always think about this

[00:36:28] what's the lowest common denominator here love your neighbor is in escapable and that love clearly means caring for their problems that's the good Samaritan you can't get away from that love your neighbor means evangelize but it means more than that but building on top of that yeah

[00:36:45] the whole idea here is symbolic it's representative it's this is how you know the kingdom is true just just think of what John tells the disciples in the upper room by this they will know your

[00:36:56] my disciples by your love for one another so here we're not even talking about engagement with our neighbors but the way that we love one another is supposed to be visible and public and a

[00:37:06] manifestation of the truth of the gospel again Leslie new begin calls the church the hermeneutic of the gospel it both makes the gospel visible and valid when the church lives as the church is

[00:37:17] supposed to live in that assumes we have an audience it assumes we're in the midst. You know just kind of backing up a little bit and thinking about that you know so Christ culture thing but

[00:37:30] then you know Nick you you quoted from first John chapter two if anyone love the world the love of the fathers not in them I think I think another problem has been defining

[00:37:40] the world in what is John actually talking about there and like you said if you take a certain isolated versus you might draw a conclusion but if you look at the totality of scripture

[00:37:51] and I think even if you look at the narrative especially the narrative you get a sense for how they're actually applying that to their own lives and so it's not a complete disengagement like

[00:38:04] some people would think but it is you know in the living of the world I mean it's just basically not making an idol out of the world recognizing well the world's good got created the world and

[00:38:15] there's many good elements in it but we don't love it or serve it ultimately we love and serve the Lord and so I think you know I was a parent I'm still a parent but you know I was a parent

[00:38:28] through the 1980s and I think the 80s I mentioned it earlier because I think the 80s were just a special time where you know we were really drilling down into some of this stuff you know kind

[00:38:40] of a kind of a fundamentalism type of an approach where we had pretty much sketched out what we thought the world was and and this is what we've got to protect our kids from and I always

[00:38:54] used to sort of chuckle to think about how so often it had to do with music so we were very careful to restrict the music that our children listened to but when it came to TV it was like it was kind

[00:39:09] of a free for all you know just watch whatever you want you think well these are kind of two sides of the same point you know so why are we so hardcore about this one and this other one we're

[00:39:18] kind of passive about it you know so I think again when you when you look at the in this is where I think a deeper look at scripture sometimes is helpful where we do have to look at that

[00:39:31] their cultural context to understand what you know I mean because how many people that have interpreted love not the world means those trees out there you know don't even think about the right pretty because that's the world or you know excluding nature and things like that well

[00:39:48] that's certainly not what but people have drawn those false conclusions yeah well one of the tensions in trying to resolve this issue and be biblical is keeping the entire biblical

[00:40:00] narrative in mind so we just hit eschatology but we also have to at the other side which is creation and creation is fallen we're post garden human beings but it is still God's creation it's still good

[00:40:12] and and that actually includes the institution of marriage it includes government these are God or daint realities that somehow lose their ultimacy when Jesus comes and so while you were talking I was thinking about how Paul in first Corinthians 7's he's talking about the goodness

[00:40:30] of singleness and he says an even you married people because Christ has come and because these things are passing away needs to live differently but he doesn't discourage marriage it's just not ultimate anymore and so there's a relativization of these things and so God created a good

[00:40:45] world but there is a new creation the fact that there's a new creation doesn't doesn't erase the goodness it transcends the goodness but it doesn't erase it and so so we can say

[00:40:56] the heavens declare the glory of God in every tree and bloom and we should but we also recognize that the new heavens and the new earth will be a greater revelation that is unobstructed unobstructed

[00:41:07] unobstructed and I would suggest this is the whole point in culture we need to be like creation creation gives us a glimpse of who God really is that's all we can do for the world

[00:41:18] is is give that glimpse but it is part of of being in these two cities at the same time of loving in this way of of just a sandwich or just a kind word

[00:41:31] or taking up a career like being a doctor or any of these things is really just a glimpse but the amazing thing is that the Holy Spirit uses those glimpses like light in the darkness

[00:41:46] it is the breaking in I love that word it's it's like we're facing the dawn and we as Christians are facing it and people will see the light reflecting on our face but if they want to see the

[00:41:59] sun they got to turn around and walk with us yeah that is again Leslie new begins model for what we're talking about here but light and salt is not just something we do with our words it's not

[00:42:09] just something we do with evangelism it's the life that we live it's embedded in the sermon on the mouth yeah yeah I mean obviously there's the easy one to point out which is that it we're told

[00:42:21] in first John too do not love the world or anything in the world if anyone loves the world the love of the father's not in him but then it says in John 3 16 that God's so loved the world

[00:42:31] and that he sent his only son why to redeem the world because he loved it right so yeah we have to define what we're talking about and we have to take the whole Bible and not just

[00:42:42] versus an isolation which is just a great principle for studying the Bible in general also okay so the last two I don't think we need to spend a lot of time on they are you know you kind

[00:42:53] of move on the spectrum from a conservative towards liberal theological approach yeah to cultural engagement I think you know clearly the conservative ones are more applicable to us and the things that we think through moving you know down the line you're getting into

[00:43:10] the more ones that actually are compromising over contextualizing like we talked about and blurring lines so those would be Christ above culture that's one that really basically just says Christ dominance over culture needs to be asserted but we don't necessarily need to change things

[00:43:28] we just need to assert his dominance and there is a good version of this few this is Thomas Aquinas it's how he ties together reason and grace and there are valuable things to how he goes about that

[00:43:41] but I think the problem with it is that it leaves both the world unchanged and at the same time tries to affirm it it's it's a complicated position and I think it's the complication that leads it into

[00:43:55] places that get weird but I don't think there's hardly any evangelical expression of this well I would say that I think that post millennialism is an expression of this so post millennialism

[00:44:09] would be closely tied to the idea of Christ's above culture and so that's where we get into the point earlier that we're talking about that eschatology matters a lot and that's actually why we as a movement would tend towards Christ's transformer of culture as well as Christ and

[00:44:25] culture and paradoxes because we are pre millennial we do believe like Peter says this world is passing away and yet you know there's a new heavens and earth coming so then the final one is the Christ

[00:44:38] of culture and that's that's actually just like total total yeah you might as well Christ is culture yeah it says that there's no distinction here and so anyone who said whether's Christian truth in every religion or or basically just again reverberates the culture of

[00:44:55] this time in the name of Jesus would be in that and and Eden Neaver would say this is completely out of fact yeah and he did and he yeah and this would be like the person who really doesn't see anything

[00:45:09] negative in culture like they actually do need to read first John too yeah yeah yeah it's it's the accommodating of culture to the point where culture becomes the dominant issue and everything

[00:45:25] conforms to culture rather than Christ and it's so easy to find these examples I mean you can see them everywhere and they've existed in America as long as America has has been around you know

[00:45:38] but we would rightly recognize that there's no Christ left there's no true Christianity and there's no value of scriptures in those corners because they've been devalued to be just another thing

[00:45:50] okay so wrapping this all up past a brand what would you say to kind of tie a bow on this well I think it's been a great discussion and I hope I hope other people take it's great too

[00:46:04] but again I would say that you know because we started with the question of contextualization we started with the question of cultural relevance and those kinds of things and I think

[00:46:16] what the way I would wrap it up is that as long as scripture is our foundation and always our boundary we need to contextualize with the culture as much as we possibly can because that's how we

[00:46:31] communicate the gospel to people but we do have boundaries and we never want to cross those boundaries and so but then again to understand the boundaries I think we have to have a full

[00:46:43] of fuller understanding of scripture we can't just pull versus out of context like we talked about and that say well this is the boundary here we need to make sure it's all in the the big

[00:46:54] picture of what the scripture says from creation through to the eschatology yeah all right well thank you very much all right thanks for listening to this season of the CGM podcast in our next episode

[00:47:09] pastor Brian and I will be speaking with Justin Thomas again at this time about Calvary Chapel Bible College Justin will be sharing about the history of the school and what they're doing to prepare for their upcoming 50 year anniversary we'll also talk about the school's recent move from Murrieta

[00:47:27] back up to twin peaks and some changes that have taken place in regard to course offerings and accreditation you won't want to miss it new episodes are released every two weeks make sure to

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