Why Being Grounded in God's Word is More Needed than Ever - with Dan Kimball

[00:00:00] Hi, Pastor Brian Brodersen here with an invite to the CGN International Conference that is taking place on the campus of Calvary Chapel Coast of Mesa.

[00:00:12] June 23rd through the 26th, we're going to have a fantastic time together.

[00:00:18] Our theme this year is hope, suffering and glory.

[00:00:21] We're going to be looking at the first epistle of Peter.

[00:00:25] We've got some amazing speakers. We've got nine main sessions.

[00:00:29] We've got lots and lots of workshops. We're going to have panel discussions.

[00:00:33] We'll have great times of food and fellowship, times of worship and prayer.

[00:00:38] And we would love you to be part of that.

[00:00:41] So if you'd like to join us, you can get registered at conference.calvarychapel.com

[00:00:48] And the sooner you do that, the better.

[00:00:51] So come on out and join us for the CGN International Conference June 23rd through the 26th, conference.calvarychapel.com

[00:01:02] Look forward to seeing you then.

[00:01:04] That's what kept me going and still keeps me going and why I'm doing what I'm doing today.

[00:01:13] People have to know the truth and there are answers. That's the good part.

[00:01:17] There are answers, but that's what I get concerned about today is the drift.

[00:01:21] Because so many younger people don't know the scriptures and then there's so much noise out there.

[00:01:27] It's easy to start believing things that aren't based out of the scriptures or just using little pieces of it.

[00:01:35] Welcome to the CGN podcast.

[00:01:37] My name is Nick Katie.

[00:01:39] I'm the pastor of Whitefields Community Church in Longmont, Colorado.

[00:01:42] And along with Pastor Brian Brodersen, I will be your host this season.

[00:01:46] The purpose of this podcast is to share with you the stories of what God is doing through Calvary Global Network.

[00:01:53] In this episode, we speak with Dan Kimball.

[00:01:56] Dan is the founding pastor of Vintage Faith Church in Santa Cruz, California.

[00:02:01] He's also the vice president of Church Mission and Strategy at Western Seminary.

[00:02:06] And he is someone who is passionate about the Bible and equipping the next generation to rightly divide God's word.

[00:02:14] In this discussion, Dan shares about his involvement in the early days of the emerging church movement and what caused him to leave that movement and distance himself from it.

[00:02:24] He also shares about what he views to be the most pressing needs when it comes to church leadership today.

[00:02:31] Dan will be speaking at this year's CGN International Conference happening June 23rd through 26th at Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa.

[00:02:39] We'd love for you to be there.

[00:02:41] You can find more information at conference.calvarychapel.com.

[00:02:45] And here's the episode.

[00:02:49] Pastor Brian, welcome once again.

[00:02:51] Well, thank you, Nick. It's great to be together again.

[00:02:54] And we're joined today by Dan Kimball. Thanks for being with us.

[00:02:58] Yeah, certainly up the coast in Santa Cruz, California.

[00:03:02] So we're both beach folks, Northern California.

[00:03:06] Would you be considered Southern California?

[00:03:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:03:10] We're Southern.

[00:03:11] And it takes us several days to get to the ocean.

[00:03:14] So, yeah.

[00:03:17] So Dan, maybe introduce yourself to our listeners.

[00:03:20] Tell us a little bit about your background and where you currently serve.

[00:03:23] Yeah, I was born and raised in New Jersey, right by New York City, and suburbs of New York, and had a pretty good upbringing.

[00:03:33] Actually, it was a pretty good upbringing with my family, mom and dad and all, and then went to Colorado State University.

[00:03:40] I didn't grow up in Christian faith.

[00:03:43] I was just, I probably would have acknowledged there was a God of some sort, but there wasn't an interest in the Christian faith at all.

[00:03:50] And then went to Colorado State University, and there I began wondering about as you do in that age group, life, faith, what is religion, what's the meaning of certain things.

[00:04:01] And it was from a table that someone had out on the Colorado State University, you know, like those tabling for the different Christian groups on campus.

[00:04:10] And somebody had a little pamphlet that said something about Jesus being the only way.

[00:04:15] And I remember I read that thing like 100 times wondering, is that really what Christians think?

[00:04:20] And it just made me, I had no bottom-out experience.

[00:04:24] Nobody was trying to convince me to follow Jesus or anything.

[00:04:28] And I just could not shake that.

[00:04:30] And I think it was God drawing me to him.

[00:04:33] And I'm just like, is this true?

[00:04:35] And I kept exploring it and exploring it.

[00:04:37] My friend had an inter and a nonplanned intervention with me where they were, I walked into a room and because I started buying Bible books and apologetic stuff.

[00:04:48] And I was looking at other world faiths at the same time.

[00:04:51] And they said, we're worried about you because we see all these Christian books that you're reading and we don't want you to become like one of them.

[00:04:58] I'm like, what do you mean?

[00:05:00] And they're saying things like you're going to lose all your creativity.

[00:05:02] You're going to get all consumed with the end of the world because that was kind of popular at that time.

[00:05:09] And then one of them mentioned like, and it's a cult.

[00:05:13] And I started thinking, well, people in cults don't realize they're in cults.

[00:05:17] So how do I know that Christianity isn't a cult?

[00:05:19] But it made me want to think in deep even diver because my friends were doing this out of care for me.

[00:05:27] Like, it really was out of care.

[00:05:29] I'm like, how do I know they're not right?

[00:05:31] And just quick story, I went to our band after graduating from college or band moved to London, England, stayed there a year and a day playing in a band doing punk rockabilly kind of music.

[00:05:43] And it was during there I really believe God brought me into a tiny little church that I was exploring.

[00:05:50] It would have been the most unhip, uncool church possible.

[00:05:54] There's maybe 20 or 25 mainly elderly people.

[00:05:57] And I had a lot of questions and the 82 year old pastor have a picture of him right next to me in my wall here.

[00:06:04] He took me under his wing and started mentoring me and asking me questions and didn't condemn me for my hair, which was three times higher in the way I was dressed and all of that.

[00:06:15] And I put my face and started following Jesus there in England.

[00:06:19] And then really quick then right then moved to Israel because I'm like, hey, I'm out of college.

[00:06:26] I have time.

[00:06:27] So I went to Israel stayed there for four and a half months working on a kabut.

[00:06:32] And I was like, what that is read through the Bible for the first time there then moved back to the state.

[00:06:37] The bass player got a job in San Jose.

[00:06:40] So I came back to the Bay Air for the first time to the Bay area found a Bible teaching church which was Santa Cruz Bible Church at the time got involved and more involved and more involved came on staff, stayed on staff.

[00:06:54] And all these years later Santa Cruz Bible only planted a church at I was working with young adults and youth than young adults and Santa Cruz Bible Planted a church, Minnich Faith Church, and I've been in the lead role of that church for 20 years.

[00:07:08] And I'm now transitioning out of that into not step out of the lead role.

[00:07:13] I'll still be on staff, but I'm focusing on with Western Seminary as one of their vice presidents and redeveloping what we're doing in the Bay Area and trying to make seminary accessible to church leaders who can't normally afford it or go in the normal methods.

[00:07:29] And that's just like care so much about getting the scriptures and truth into leaders who influence others because there's so much confusion out there.

[00:07:37] So I never thought I'd be serving with the seminary, but that's where God's brought me.

[00:07:42] So Dan, what year did you go to England?

[00:07:47] What year was that?

[00:07:48] 1985-86.

[00:07:51] Wow.

[00:07:52] Okay.

[00:07:53] Yeah, that's quite a story.

[00:07:54] I love it.

[00:07:55] Yeah.

[00:07:56] So Dan, I know that like when I heard your name at first, the first thing that popped into my mind was that you're somehow associated with the emerging church movement.

[00:08:04] And so I'm curious maybe that's true for our listeners as well.

[00:08:07] So I was kind of wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your involvement and what eventually led to your departure from that movement and that whole story.

[00:08:17] Yeah, back in the early 90s, I think it was mid to late 90s.

[00:08:24] Let me get this time somewhere around 90s, mid to late 90s.

[00:08:28] The whole conversation for those that are old enough to remember this is about reaching generation X, reaching Gen X.

[00:08:35] And I had just shifted from being the high school pastor to developing and leading a young adult ministry, which started, we just started listening to young adults and what their beliefs were.

[00:08:49] And interestingly, like our teachings were generally like 50 minutes long and we were just wanting to answer the questions they had.

[00:08:58] And we were changing kind of some methods and it grew to like 800 to 1000 young adults for a bunch of years.

[00:09:07] And from that, there's an organization called Leadership Network at the time.

[00:09:11] They're still in existence, but they were like connecting people that were doing some innovative things with young adults and Generation X.

[00:09:19] And they started connecting us together through meetings and events.

[00:09:23] And that became what was known as like the emerging church movement because Leadership Network had a tagline at the time, advance scouts for the emerging church.

[00:09:34] I think that's where the term came from was Leadership Network and their advance scouts for the emerging church.

[00:09:40] And then I was asked to write a book by Zander Winn about all of this.

[00:09:44] And so then it was called The Emerging Church was the name of the first book, Vintage Christianity for New Generations.

[00:09:49] And it was all about how do we reach the next generation with the gospel?

[00:09:54] How do we, we might have to change to use the cliche, you know, change the methods but not change the message.

[00:10:01] And we were and that's what it was all about reaching the next generation.

[00:10:05] And then, however, during that time, it wasn't like a formal denomination or a formal type of group.

[00:10:13] And what we realized there is a diversity of folks that are brought into even some of the leadership and more prominent roles and we're writing.

[00:10:23] And I had actually asked him, like, can I share who this was?

[00:10:26] I had Scott McKnight, who was a, you know, he's a well-known New Testament scholar.

[00:10:32] And it was at an event in San Diego that I was speaking at and he was speaking at and I had not talked to him before.

[00:10:38] And he asked to meet with me.

[00:10:40] And then he says, Dan, I want to know, like, what are you doing with these guys?

[00:10:45] Like, you're a fundamentalist compared to them.

[00:10:48] And this was some of the guys in the emerging church conversation.

[00:10:52] And I'm like, what do you mean?

[00:10:54] And then he just started telling me things that he started noticing about how they're talking about scripture, how they're talking about what truth is.

[00:11:03] And he was sharing that he noticed that there is a direction in the conversation that would seem to be intentionally getting away from a view of the authority and inspiration of the scriptures

[00:11:17] and ethics and morals being looked at differently.

[00:11:21] And I had not picked that up because I just assumed everybody was all reached the next generation.

[00:11:27] And after that meeting with Scott, which was very providential, and I've become good friends with Scott over the years, I was really thankful he said that.

[00:11:36] And then I went and started asking individuals, what do you believe about scripture?

[00:11:40] What do you believe about what happens after we die?

[00:11:43] And started realizing Scott was correct.

[00:11:47] He had noticed things in advance.

[00:11:49] And then when I heard all of those type of things, at that point I went and talked to most of them and just said, I can't partner with events anymore.

[00:12:00] And I kind of, it was sad because we were friends, but then it was really talking about a different Jesus.

[00:12:08] And that's what I started realizing.

[00:12:10] You can use words like gospel, Jesus, inspiration of scripture, but until you start defining what those words mean, it was very confusing.

[00:12:20] And so at that particular time, I then retracted from, in many ways the friendships too because a lot of our friendships were based on meeting together and planning out events and all of those type of things.

[00:12:33] But then I left that group and I stopped using the term emerging or emergent because it got so understandably confusing.

[00:12:42] The saddest part about it, honestly, I'm going to hope I'm always honest, honestly, was that many people jumped to conclusions about everybody and put everybody in the same sort of bucket that you must all be believing all the same thing and you must all be alike.

[00:12:59] And that wasn't true. There's, you know, several people were consistently, I'm going to say this like, you know, orthodox to use the word and I know it's been hijacked in political ways, but the original meaning of evangelical,

[00:13:12] like we were solidly about reaching the next generation.

[00:13:16] And so that group, there was there but then the others that weren't and it was truly a change of theology and even a different form of the gospel being taught.

[00:13:26] And so the association stopped at that time, but people and kept lumping everybody in together.

[00:13:31] And there are things, I'm talking a lot, but there are things that I can remember seeing like we, in terms of like when you change forms of communication and worship, we still preached.

[00:13:44] And we, whereas in our church, whereas like 40, we still do 45 minute sermons, but we started adding on some other things like something like we once had a map.

[00:13:54] I'll give you an example. I taught on being the salt of the earth and, you know, straight from the book of Matthew about how believers should be the salt of the earth.

[00:14:04] So what we used to do, and this was a lot of college age back then is we had a world map, you put on a table and then we had salt crystals.

[00:14:12] And we had the big Bible verse behind the table and then said, take a salt crystal and place it on a country in the world and pause and pray for them to be the salt of the earth in their believers in their world in these different countries.

[00:14:27] So somebody heard we did that.

[00:14:29] And then there is an online article that Dan Kimball is practicing witchcraft and New Age because he's using crystals.

[00:14:36] Oh no.

[00:14:37] And so it was just that's what I just realized the, you know, some I'm 100% for watching doctrine and guarding doctrine.

[00:14:47] And that's what's led me to be on staff at the seminary now and doing what I'm doing.

[00:14:52] But I also want to make sure we're really careful when we try to lump things together or lump people or guilt by association and or certain things.

[00:15:01] You have to be very careful with our words and in there because again, it's we want to be watching, guarding doctrine and calling out when we see false doctrine being taught 100%.

[00:15:11] But also just make sure you're doing it right and not accusing people of things that they may not really believe.

[00:15:19] And you've not done your homework to actually explore things at a more deeply deeper level.

[00:15:23] So that's what broke me away from it and really just kept going.

[00:15:27] And so in other words, I just kept going planting a church, reaching the next generation and everything else.

[00:15:34] So did you Dan, how did the guys that were part of that leadership network?

[00:15:40] How did they respond to your departure?

[00:15:44] Yeah, it was I mean leadership network was the connecting original connecting point for all of us.

[00:15:51] And then I would say, you know, then we just started doing events and then publishers were involved in, you know, and it was just, you know, we'd be speaking a lot, not just leadership network events.

[00:16:03] And so it wasn't leadership network at the time.

[00:16:06] I mean they they kind of did the connecting and things but then it was more of the relationships and the friendships because we would get asked to speak at a youth specialties event or national pastures convention or the outreach convention or whatever.

[00:16:18] And so it was more my it was more the relational part, which again was probably the toughest but I went to each person individually.

[00:16:25] And at that time now most of their beliefs are made known at that time it wasn't.

[00:16:31] And I just when I was asking after Scott McKnight said look into this and I said I'm not going to share with others.

[00:16:38] I just need to know, you know, what do you believe about these things.

[00:16:42] And I would say like after that, our relation our relationships diminished and you know I don't say ended.

[00:16:50] I just don't really.

[00:16:52] I haven't talked to them in years and years now because they're on a different trajectory and in different pockets and teaching different things and and sad part many ways I actually teach now how to defend and even warn about teachings that are drifting into, you know, which could be false

[00:17:09] bulls or those kind of things.

[00:17:11] So the hardest part was the relationships and the friendships because we truly were, you know, we had fun times together and good things but that dissolved.

[00:17:20] And I also I mean I remember this clearly I'm like I have to choose Christ over friendships, but then they would say but we believe in Christ too.

[00:17:30] And then you have say you have to define then who Jesus is because when you start laying it out is kind of like a different Jesus so yeah you and that's

[00:17:38] so it was really tough in that part relationally for sure.

[00:17:43] I think what it you know going back to your story about even picking up those pamphlets on on the campus and just having that, you know sort of haunting Holy the Holy hunting that was going on that that eventually led you to that little church in

[00:18:05] England in London.

[00:18:07] So it sounds to me like and I've heard I've heard this from others too like, you know, I mean we're living in the age of deconstruction and a lot of people are still following that sort of that same trajectory that was set by some of those guys in that movement.

[00:18:24] But it just seems like there are guys and you're one of them who had such a such a life changing encounter with Christ that you just can't really deny that.

[00:18:37] You know, there might be all this other stuff that sort of floats around out there but but that reality is the thing that in a sense kind of just kept you anchored would you say that that's true.

[00:18:48] Yeah, and it was the scriptures you know because I had to make it like we all do we have to make a decision if we believe the scriptures are the inspiring, inspired and then using the word in our into knowing you have to define that means but in our

[00:19:04] scriptures, then we have to make a choose if these are really Holy Spirit written scriptures to people that God, you know chose to give us his truth today. Then we have to yield our personal opinion or personal experiences or emotions,

[00:19:18] and I think that's one of the things to yielding of what the Holy Spirit wrote through people in the scriptures. And when I because I'm like it's kind of like all or nothing like when you look at following Jesus it's not like well, I'll yield part of my life and my thinking here but I kind of think maybe God is wrong or the scriptures are wrong in this

[00:19:36] or certain things and and that has been a bedrock is is that's why the importance of what you believe in this everything all of our problems today. In my opinion, whether it's the sexual questions or all the deconstruct it really ends up being down to are the scriptures of God Holy Spirit inspired

[00:19:56] in the original copy, you know, original writings. And that and that's the that's the core and all the rest is symptoms if you shift your view of the core. And that's what's happening out there. That's what I mean I can feel my body getting worked up about this. You know like well, God wouldn't have ordered the violence the Old Testament so they were wrong there.

[00:20:17] Right. Then you're shifting your your entire view of the scriptures or I'm going to pay more attention to Jesus than Paul. Yeah, I understand that. But the Holy Spirit is what who inspired the writers to write down Jesus's words and Jesus commissioned Paul and Paul's words 100% Holy Spirit inspired in their into the original.

[00:20:36] You can't do that. It's like a different understanding of scripture. Yeah, so that's what kept me going and still keeps me going and why I'm doing what I'm doing today. And people have to know the truth. And there are answers. That's the good part. There are answers.

[00:20:51] But that's when I get concerned about today is the drift because so many younger people don't know the scriptures and then there's so much noise out there. It's easy to start believing things that aren't based out of the scriptures or just using little pieces of it out there.

[00:21:08] Yeah. And I mean, Nick, that just resonates so much with us too, right? I mean, that's kind of that foundational confidence in the Word of God is sort of the essence of what our whole Calvary ministry is about.

[00:21:30] Yeah. And I think Calvary Chapel, one of the things that was always so... I mean, I found it, I was a teenager. It wasn't like the first church that I ended up in, but it was obviously where I stuck and for good reason because what I think is amazing about what we're doing, it sounds very similar to where you're at, Dan, is just like a focus on being culturally engaging and culturally understandable.

[00:21:54] But yet really standing on the scriptures and not trying to change doctrine but to speak to the culture in an understandable way.

[00:22:07] Yeah, 100 percent, right? Because in that way, in today's world, I mean, I just shared... I spoke at Monterey, I think I'm becoming a Calvary person. I was at Monterey, Calvary, Friday and Saturday speaking there.

[00:22:20] And one of the sessions I spoke about was how the early church had conflict and you had to really take more stand to many of the seasons of the early church.

[00:22:33] And then in America, in particular, we've been in fairly a season of comfortability where there's not a lot of conflict.

[00:22:40] You could say you're a Christian and it wasn't seen as a negative thing, maybe even a positive thing.

[00:22:44] And a lot of even the values of culture aligned with the general value of scripture and then about ethics.

[00:22:53] And then now that there's been an accelerated change and even now a negativity in many ways towards historical Christianity in the Bible,

[00:23:03] it's not as easy to be a public Christian anymore, especially if you're younger because people say you're hateful, you're phobic, you're all this other.

[00:23:10] And so you've got to be grounded in the scriptures to really know why you believe so when those winds and pressure comes, it's not...

[00:23:20] It won't be as easy to say, well, maybe it's wrong or maybe I can like follow Jesus, but I also can believe these other things too.

[00:23:29] And that's why the scriptures are the... It's the Holy Spirit, of course, in us and that wrote the scriptures.

[00:23:36] But the scriptures, we got to be more Bible heads than ever today in my opinion.

[00:23:42] And that gets to the next thing I wanted to talk to you about.

[00:23:45] I know that you're involved in teaching church leadership topics at Western Seminary.

[00:23:49] So I was going to ask you, what do you believe are some of the most pressing issues facing church leaders today?

[00:23:55] Well, there's so many.

[00:23:58] I would say there's lots of pressing issues once they come to my mind right now.

[00:24:01] One is making sure that those that are growing up in the church know what they believe and why.

[00:24:11] Not just even the facts, but why.

[00:24:13] And so that we're focusing earlier on with Christian families to the...

[00:24:18] Even elementary, middle school and of course high school at least have a basic understanding of our primary doctrines and beliefs

[00:24:26] and teaching them some apologetics earlier on and try to proactively teach them about the tough questions

[00:24:36] and pressures that they're going to have as they enter into high school, even middle school and then beyond.

[00:24:43] So none of these questions come out of the blue and they're shocked and surprised about them.

[00:24:47] Because I have heard multiple, multiple times, I started hearing these things or watching them on TikTok.

[00:24:52] I went and asked my mom and dad. They had no idea how to answer.

[00:24:56] So all of a sudden then it's starting to undermine your faith.

[00:25:00] Like my mom and dad don't even know this, but I'm learning this on TikTok.

[00:25:03] And I would say like proactively that's a major one is really set that up.

[00:25:09] And I could think it's totally fun. It's not like boring.

[00:25:12] And you got to always go why, not just the facts, but why is this important?

[00:25:15] And that's a big leadership challenge, I would say today.

[00:25:19] And then just forms really not forgetting evangelism because it's also I've sensed,

[00:25:26] I even seen it in little pockets in our church too, that we can start focusing so much inwardly at a protection.

[00:25:33] You know like we want to protect our kids, we want to protect 100% absolutely yes totally.

[00:25:38] And even like we want to be the church that's, we can be the Bible teaching discipleship and all of that.

[00:25:43] And then it's all about us and all about us.

[00:25:46] And then we're forgetting about the lost that need to hear about Jesus.

[00:25:50] And all of a sudden many non-Christians can become, which there are to me there are evil demonic things that are attacking Christians and different things going on today.

[00:26:03] So there's things that I would not but also a lot of just average folks who aren't caught up in those things.

[00:26:09] They're not our enemy. There are those that Jesus died for loves and they are in desperate need of the gospel.

[00:26:17] So at the same time we're buckling down and doing more hardcore discipleship,

[00:26:21] we need to be desperately and urgently caring about those that don't know Jesus like my friend.

[00:26:28] I'm looking at the guy, the 82-year-old guy who mentored me.

[00:26:32] And God used him to change my life because he answered my questions.

[00:26:37] He didn't, it was just what and I've had mentors over the air, Phil Comer.

[00:26:42] He's John Mark Comer's dad.

[00:26:44] He was the guy that brought me on staff at Santa Cruz Bible.

[00:26:47] He mentored me just those are the two things that came to my mind.

[00:26:50] But I want to kind of circle back a little bit on that Dan about going back to scripture and the absolute necessity of being grounded in the word and believing the word.

[00:27:01] And you wrote a book, I think it's your most recent publication, correct?

[00:27:09] And I think it's a title How Not to Read the Bible. Is that what the title is?

[00:27:14] Yes, How Not to Read the Bible.

[00:27:16] Yeah, so tell us about that a little bit.

[00:27:21] So you're passionate about scripture, you want people to be in a scripture,

[00:27:24] but you're recognizing that there can be some pitfalls if you approach the scripture in the wrong way.

[00:27:34] So, yeah, the subtitle of the book is important because like how not to read the Bible and it says making sense of the anti-science, anti-women, pro-slavery,

[00:27:47] pro-violence, sounding scriptures out there.

[00:27:52] And what it was basically doing is like a missionary does, you go out and you listen to what are the belief systems and the critiques of the Christian faith and beliefs.

[00:28:02] But it's also with social media, there's a bombardment of teachings that are saying, well, you've had the scriptures wrong or you're reading these verses wrong and always drifting into a very progressive liberal,

[00:28:17] very non-inspiration and their interview of scripture online.

[00:28:21] And so I just out of passion just looked at what are the common criticisms of the Bible today and then addressed them in the How Not to Read the Bible one book because we need to talk about like how do you answer the slavery questions?

[00:28:35] How do you answer when God use violence?

[00:28:37] How do you answer those things?

[00:28:39] So that's why I wrote that.

[00:28:41] Yeah, that's great.

[00:28:42] So so needed.

[00:28:44] And I think your book is so helpful.

[00:28:47] You know, Dan, I was thinking about that as you're saying, you know, you mentioned social media, Tik Tok, et cetera.

[00:28:54] I think there might have been a time in the past when, you know, at least people would think that they would be able to shelter their children, shelter their congregation from being exposed to some of these,

[00:29:05] you know, liberal arguments or things like that that would seek to undermine the scriptures or would seek to, you know, question things which, you know, isn't always bad either.

[00:29:17] But nowadays I don't think you can shelter anybody from anything in this information age.

[00:29:21] I think that's one of the challenges we face now.

[00:29:24] Yeah, even, I mean, even parents that, you know, that you can put every type of safeguard up on your phones or your Wi-Fi at home.

[00:29:32] I mean, it's just, but there's, it's all over the place.

[00:29:37] You know, not just in even in social media, it's in music, you know, think of, and then musicians now are also becoming vocal about beliefs and what they think is right and what is wrong because a lot of pop celebrity culture that we have access to immediately,

[00:29:51] they're taking stands on issues and they're being very public about issues.

[00:29:56] And if I'm a young person, I might be looking to, you know, my heroes at the time and what they're now saying is important to me.

[00:30:04] And we're just seeing over and over and over again people that are even saying they're Christian, you know, or whether what that means to them, you know, advocating for very non-Christian things when you study the scriptures.

[00:30:17] But again, it certainly sounds good. Oh, I can be a Christian and believe this, this, this because this pop celebrity is saying so.

[00:30:25] And that's why it's really confusing out there.

[00:30:29] And that's why I'd say why I said back to the beginning, it's really important to my opinion that parents, you don't have to be like Bible scholars,

[00:30:38] but be aware of the primary issues that are facing that your kids will be learning about even if and proactively address them.

[00:30:47] And I think for youth ministries, you know, to proactively address the questions that they are probably hearing now of course and will hear longer.

[00:30:55] So they're not then caught off guard when they hear about it.

[00:30:58] And they don't think it CS Lewis and Mir Christianity, he wrote something, I'm going to paraphrase it.

[00:31:04] It said something like this was when television was getting popular.

[00:31:09] And so he said this about television, like in the day when we are having more and more news and information coming our way.

[00:31:17] And that means that we have there's more and more information about God coming our way, which means there's more information, wrong bad information about God coming our way.

[00:31:28] And this is why theology is important because much of the ideas that seem fresh and new today are ones that theologians have tried and tested and rejected in years past,

[00:31:39] but they seem all fresh and new.

[00:31:42] And he said in a lecture in the forties or fifties, and think of what he would say today about why it's so important that we develop the discernment of how to sift through all of the opinions and information out there that's being set about the Christian beliefs and Bible.

[00:31:59] So Dan, what do you think are some things that churches can do to better train and support future leaders?

[00:32:06] Yeah, I mean, foremost, and I say this as a cliche.

[00:32:11] You know, it's not, I'm sorry, it's not a cliche, but it's we have to be praying all the more fiercely because I do believe there's so much pressure on younger generations today.

[00:32:21] And I think there is a, and Brian wrote a great book on spiritual warfare, you know, and just I think there's, and it's not cliche like spiritual warfare, because if you look at what's going on,

[00:32:35] it's dissolving the confidence in what truth is and dissolving the confidence that the scriptures are from God.

[00:32:46] And it is more of a human document, you know, dissolving even the identity of who we are is created in the image of God.

[00:32:53] And then ultimately, it really ends up dissolving what the gospel is because then it comes, it all ends up like pointing back eventually to the atonement.

[00:33:02] Like, well, the atonement didn't happen. This is what's popular now.

[00:33:06] Didn't happen for Jesus to die on the cross for our sins and repent and put our faith in him.

[00:33:11] It's now Jesus died because he was facing the oppressive leadership and fighting for the marginalized and the colonization that Roman was, you know, all these words are used and then say that's why he died, not for atonement.

[00:33:26] And what's that? That's an entirely false gospel. It sounds so good. And if I don't know the true gospel and everything else, and I'm younger, I like, hey, that sounds great.

[00:33:40] And that's why I keep saying this over and over again, what we have to be practically doing is teaching these things, but in advance before they start hearing it more.

[00:33:50] Yeah. And that idea, it just fits so perfectly with the cultural narrative.

[00:33:58] Right.

[00:33:59] It's easy to be a Christian.

[00:34:01] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. There's really no cost. You're not, you know, you're kind of going to get, as they would say on the right side of history by embracing this idea about Jesus.

[00:34:15] But again, this goes back to what you said earlier. The only way you're going to find out that that isn't the case is by reading the Bible and by seeing what the Bible actually says atonement is versus the new definition of it.

[00:34:32] Yeah. I say this in our church role. In fact, I just broke my binding on my church because I'm sorry, I'm going to book my Bible.

[00:34:39] I always hold it up. And then after that, I forget what I'm going to send it to.

[00:34:44] Like you see how it's like, I'm showing this on, so it just ripped because I'll hold it up a lot.

[00:34:50] I'm like, we have to.

[00:34:51] Oh, there it goes. Fully broken now.

[00:34:54] All right, I just broke the whole, the entire binding is now broken.

[00:34:57] Yeah.

[00:34:58] It's like madness if people who follow Jesus aren't entirely wanting to immerse their lives in studying his word.

[00:35:07] And I know some people have learning disabilities and some people can't read and they might have to enlist in my audio or something, but man, it's just as a new Christian, I'm like, I must, I got to really know what this is.

[00:35:20] I'm going to dedicate my life to follow someone and his teaching.

[00:35:23] So I just think it's madness that we're not all Bible passionate to really want to know what's in the scriptures.

[00:35:32] Yeah. You know, I remember the days back in the, you know, kind of the latter part of the, what they now call the Jesus movement time.

[00:35:42] And this is when I became a Christian.

[00:35:44] I mean, we literally got a Bible and we all had pretty big Bibles and we carried them everywhere.

[00:35:52] You didn't go anywhere without your Bible.

[00:35:55] I mean, it was just, you know, if you're going to the beach, you got your Bible, you're going out to a restaurant, you got your Bible.

[00:36:01] If you're going to go hang out with your friends, you got your Bible.

[00:36:05] And I guess, you know, theoretically you can still have that today if you have a Bible app on your phone.

[00:36:10] But are you utilizing that Bible app on your phone?

[00:36:14] I guess it would be the question today.

[00:36:16] No, sure.

[00:36:17] I mean, I read some studies online that were also saying like even it still is that you learn more and you retain more.

[00:36:24] If it is written down like a hard copy and then you can underline and color code it with pencils and things.

[00:36:30] But how everyone does it, whether it's audio reading just to really make that.

[00:36:36] Because there's so many voices coming in and constantly and constantly and we better be making sure we have the truth foremost in our minds.

[00:36:45] And I'm not nostalgic in the sense that I want to live in the past or I want the past to...

[00:36:51] We have to go back and do it exactly like, you know, it happened back then.

[00:36:56] But I have lately just been longing for a renewal of the days where people just they wanted to know the Bible.

[00:37:06] They wanted to have it taught to them. They wanted to talk about it.

[00:37:09] They wanted to, you know, it was the thing that...

[00:37:12] And again, some people would say, oh, well, that's Bible allotry.

[00:37:15] You know, your life is supposed to revolve around Jesus, not the Bible.

[00:37:18] Well, of course, ultimately, yes, we know that it revolves around Jesus.

[00:37:22] But Jesus gave us the Bible so we could actually know who he is.

[00:37:26] Virtually almost everything we know about Jesus comes from the Bible.

[00:37:29] Yeah.

[00:37:30] I mean, it's like you hear that.

[00:37:32] But this is what I'm saying. That saying sounds so nice.

[00:37:35] I don't want to worship the Bible.

[00:37:37] Yeah.

[00:37:38] But then it's like a twist on the whole thing that changes people's perceptions and it's wrong.

[00:37:44] It's like with that, you know, all right, I don't get...

[00:37:47] I know we're wrapping up here, but here's another controversial statement.

[00:37:52] Okay. This may be a whole other topic.

[00:37:55] Could it be in contemporary years, the last decade or so, that we've elevated worship music so much?

[00:38:03] I'm not saying that we then have lessened the focus on getting into the scriptures because the worship music has been so prominently...

[00:38:21] as the primary experience that so many younger people have with God is always generally through the worship experience,

[00:38:28] which I love we have music in our... I'm not saying anything.

[00:38:31] But it's just an interesting topic because then it's when people say the...

[00:38:37] Here's a great Bible example.

[00:38:39] When people say the word worship or worshiping or worshiping,

[00:38:42] I think it was something like 97.8% of the times the word worship is used in the scriptures is not affiliated with music or singing.

[00:38:52] When you do see the word worship, like 98% of the time in the scriptures,

[00:38:57] it is affiliated with sacrificial living, yielding your life to Romans 12, 1 and 2,

[00:39:03] lay your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God.

[00:39:06] Then you'll be able to know what true worship is.

[00:39:09] How do you do that by not conforming to the world?

[00:39:12] Then you have to know from the scriptures what does conforming to the world look like or not,

[00:39:16] so that you can have your mind renewed from scriptures.

[00:39:19] So I think it's a big topic, but I keep wondering is there a danger that we've put so much emphasis into the music?

[00:39:26] As a musician, I'm saying that it's almost backfiring in a way to have less interest in truly getting people straight into the scriptures.

[00:39:37] That was a big topic and big statement I just said.

[00:39:39] I've got one related to the idea of some things we've been talking about in the scriptures.

[00:39:45] What do you think about this?

[00:39:46] Pastor Brian, you had mentioned people tethering their faith to Jesus,

[00:39:52] and somebody might say, and like you said, Dan, it sounds convincing at first,

[00:39:56] we shouldn't tether our faith through the Bible, we should tether our faith to Jesus.

[00:40:00] I've also heard it said, in fact at a quite famous talk that might,

[00:40:05] some people might know what I'm talking about by using the word tether,

[00:40:08] but someone well known said we should no longer tether our faith to the Bible.

[00:40:13] We need to tether our faith to the resurrection.

[00:40:16] And the reason they said is because a lot of the new atheists and critics of Christianity

[00:40:20] are really good at causing people to question their trust in the Bible.

[00:40:25] But if we can just bolster their trust in the resurrection,

[00:40:28] then it won't matter if they believe in the Bible.

[00:40:31] So what would be some responses to that?

[00:40:33] Well, I think, Dan said a minute ago,

[00:40:36] where are you going to get your information about the resurrection?

[00:40:39] Primarily you're going to get it from the Bible.

[00:40:42] Obviously there are some other sources,

[00:40:45] but they're not in any way as detailed as what we have in the scripture.

[00:40:53] And they're very few and far between.

[00:40:57] And of course, they don't give a theological explanation for the resurrection

[00:41:02] or why it even happened.

[00:41:04] So yeah, I think it's just a mistaken notion to think that somehow,

[00:41:10] especially when you look at Jesus,

[00:41:13] I mean, Jesus, talk about somebody who quoted the Bible all the time.

[00:41:18] Yeah.

[00:41:19] Jesus did.

[00:41:21] So I think when we say we want to be like Jesus,

[00:41:25] okay, if you're going to be like Jesus, you have to be a Bible person.

[00:41:29] Jesus was a Bible person.

[00:41:31] Yeah.

[00:41:32] Well, I think he quoted the Bible so often and referred to it.

[00:41:37] When he was alive on Earth, then he's on the cross,

[00:41:41] he's quoting the Bible.

[00:41:43] Then when he's resurrected, he talks about all of the scriptures pointed to him.

[00:41:51] When he's tempted, he quotes the Bible.

[00:41:54] So it's like just anything looking at him,

[00:41:57] you just say like Jesus was consumed with the scriptures.

[00:42:02] Yeah, I'm currently teaching through the Gospel of Matthew, my church.

[00:42:05] And one of the things that surprised me,

[00:42:08] that I've taught this book before and teaching it again,

[00:42:11] it's like wow, even just in the things that he's saying,

[00:42:14] there are allusions to parts of the Bible where he's not even quoting.

[00:42:19] It's like saying things that are going to trigger people's memories of the scripture

[00:42:23] because he's so full of it and it's just exuding out of him.

[00:42:27] And then going back to, of course, with how not to read the Bible,

[00:42:33] what gets criticized is well, they pull out Levitical laws

[00:42:36] and they'll say look, you silly people,

[00:42:38] you're believing that you shouldn't eat shellfish or why.

[00:42:41] And now Jesus was in, you know, when he was,

[00:42:46] they have to look at how, what's the storyline of the Bible?

[00:42:49] When do Levitical laws end for people today?

[00:42:53] What continued post Jesus in the law?

[00:42:57] Because then the Bible is misused and then mocked

[00:43:00] if you don't understand the whole thing.

[00:43:02] So I'm just raising that up because when Jesus was quoting much of the Old Testament,

[00:43:09] the New Testament was then being written,

[00:43:11] parts of the Old Testament continued

[00:43:13] some ended with the New Testament, the New Covenant of Jesus.

[00:43:18] But most of the moral ethics and the sexual ethics intensified post Jesus,

[00:43:23] not lessened, but of course we still don't murder somebody

[00:43:26] in those type of things in the New Testament.

[00:43:29] It just shows the misuse of the scripture to mock the scripture that you see out there a lot.

[00:43:34] Yeah.

[00:43:37] Yeah. Well, man, and you know, Dan with the going back to your role at Western,

[00:43:44] I mean, it sounds like you were in ministry prior to getting like a seminary education.

[00:43:51] Is that am I right about that?

[00:43:53] Yes, I was brought on as a volunteer at well first as a Santa Cruz Bible church volunteer,

[00:43:59] then I was brought on one day a week kind of a thing.

[00:44:02] And then I was brought on full time.

[00:44:04] And then I went to Western Seminary in San Jose as I started realizing I needed to be going to be in vocational.

[00:44:12] Everyone's in ministry.

[00:44:13] Yeah.

[00:44:14] If I was going to be in church specific with all of my week, I wanted to get educated.

[00:44:19] So, okay, let's just talk just for just a second because you know,

[00:44:25] some people would be critical of those who go to seminary.

[00:44:29] They'd say, well, you know, what are you doing that for?

[00:44:31] You have the Bible.

[00:44:32] What do you need to and you know in our in our the history of our movement,

[00:44:37] we were fond, you know, 25 years ago, maybe not even that long ago of referring to seminary as cemetery.

[00:44:44] So this is where you go if you want to lose your faith, you know.

[00:44:49] So what was it that two things, what was it that you had the sense like I need to go get

[00:44:58] you know, kind of a deeper education here.

[00:45:01] And that's one.

[00:45:02] And then the second thing is what would you say to somebody right now about the reason why and I don't think seminary is for everyone.

[00:45:12] But I do think it's for more people than maybe think that it's for them.

[00:45:17] So what would you say to that person?

[00:45:19] Yeah.

[00:45:20] Well, one, it's interesting because I've heard not necessarily Calvary folks,

[00:45:27] you know, just like, you know, I don't need, I don't need education or seminary or scholars.

[00:45:32] I just got me and me in the word and that's all I need.

[00:45:36] I don't need these scholars and all of that.

[00:45:38] And then I say like, Hey, you got to remember something.

[00:45:41] You're holding an English Bible in your hand right now.

[00:45:43] You have been heavily dependent on scholars already that have translated from the Hebrew,

[00:45:49] Aramaic and Greek into English.

[00:45:51] And actually you should probably be exploring who those scholars were because depending on what translation you have,

[00:45:57] they might be leaning in one direction or another and coming to conclusions to what you have in English.

[00:46:02] You're already heavily dependent on scholars to even have the Bible that you have in your hand.

[00:46:07] So it's a kind of an odd argument when people just say I just need God's word.

[00:46:11] I don't need scholars or things.

[00:46:13] But then also I would just say like, I just know for me it going through a formal education process.

[00:46:20] It was, I got to look at, I mean, I suppose if you had a lot of time and a lot of super discipline,

[00:46:28] you could read enough to get that formation in your mind.

[00:46:32] But what it did for me is it just forces and for anybody,

[00:46:36] it forces us to look at all of the different aspects of Old Testament, New Testament,

[00:46:42] where the scriptures came from, church history, theological topics that I probably wouldn't have read on my own

[00:46:48] and that I then had to dive into and be forced to think through.

[00:46:51] Here's why different people believe different things.

[00:46:54] And it's like you go to the gym, you know, you go to the gym and you're getting a mental healthy workout

[00:47:01] that then allows you to be in my opinion even deeper discussions and defending the faith

[00:47:07] in ways that you probably wouldn't have thought so before.

[00:47:10] So like I'm obviously now that what I'm doing,

[00:47:13] 100% that think we should be getting into the scriptures and having a formal way.

[00:47:20] And that's why I'm passionate about making it as accessible and costs and less cost is possible.

[00:47:25] Because all these young leaders today, they need in my opinion, they need theological training

[00:47:31] because they're on the front lines of getting asked the toughest questions.

[00:47:36] And so I, again, I can't even think like that.

[00:47:40] I never would have thought that as a non-believer or a new Christian

[00:47:43] that of course I'm going to put myself in a formal education.

[00:47:47] That just was a natural thing.

[00:47:50] So Dan, is there a place where people can keep up with you online

[00:47:53] or see the work that you're involved in?

[00:47:56] Yeah, well, my role at the seminary,

[00:48:00] I'm going to be doing like a majority of my time at the seminary.

[00:48:04] I'm staying at our church and I'll be in like an a niche role.

[00:48:08] And I'm going to actually when I develop theology classes for a church,

[00:48:12] practical theology classes, I'll be leaving the lead role.

[00:48:16] And then I'm going to be working with, we have an Abbey coffee sounds cliche,

[00:48:20] but coffee house open seven days a week, a lot of university students there.

[00:48:23] And I'm going to be relaunching all of our music events

[00:48:26] or to get to know musicians and people in our town that are in Christians.

[00:48:30] So I'm on, I'm redoing, there's a, I have a personal website

[00:48:35] that's getting revamped and redone right now, just my name,

[00:48:38] DanKimble.com, but I'm on social media.

[00:48:41] If anybody ever wants to ask anything, just my name, Dan Kimble

[00:48:45] on all of the social media.

[00:48:47] I was on early and got my name and all Instagram and all of those.

[00:48:52] So that's where I'm at.

[00:48:54] Posting pictures of when I talked to Brian and you guys and I'll post up.

[00:48:58] Wonderful chat chat.

[00:49:00] Cover global network.

[00:49:02] And I'm really looking forward to being down there in June and in Costa Mesa

[00:49:05] to be not just speaking the one time, but like you have a great event there.

[00:49:10] And I was looking at all the speakers and the labs and so I'm

[00:49:13] staying for the whole thing to be learning from you guys down there.

[00:49:16] So I look forward to being there.

[00:49:18] And once in a while, Dan will even post a monster picture or something,

[00:49:22] you know, or, or, you know, a classic musical group or, you know,

[00:49:27] a concert that he's at or something like that.

[00:49:30] So we have a little bit of fun together because we have, you know,

[00:49:33] I'm a little bit older, but we do have some, some common bonds and,

[00:49:37] you know, some of the old films and especially some of the old horror

[00:49:41] films as they probably would have been called back then.

[00:49:44] They were called melodramas back in those days.

[00:49:47] And I remember like, you know, at one o'clock in the morning,

[00:49:50] I'd be, I would be scroll, not scrolling.

[00:49:53] I'd be, I'd be thumbing through the TV guide looking for the melodramas

[00:49:57] to see, you know, what, what scary movie I could find.

[00:50:02] Oh sure.

[00:50:03] Yeah.

[00:50:04] And you have something before, I mean, Brian, you know,

[00:50:06] we're just getting to know each other, Nick, but I know for Brian,

[00:50:09] I met his son Char, you know, through Western Seminary and then

[00:50:14] just kind of this bonding over music and scripture and just like

[00:50:17] listening to the heart and then getting to know you, Brian,

[00:50:20] it's just been such a joy because of, yes, your passion for the

[00:50:25] scriptures and sound theology.

[00:50:27] You keep talking, you know, it comes out of you all the time.

[00:50:30] Sound theology, we want them there, but also your tenderness

[00:50:33] and how you speak about things and how you approach ministry

[00:50:38] and church, you know, and things.

[00:50:40] So I've really admired you and you're kind of like a new hero

[00:50:45] of faith to me and what you're doing.

[00:50:48] So I'm saying that, yeah.

[00:50:50] Will it's mutual?

[00:50:51] So yeah.

[00:50:52] Cool.

[00:50:53] So and thanks for being on the podcast with us.

[00:50:57] Well, thank you.

[00:50:58] We'll see you at the conference.

[00:51:18] And what's on the horizon for that ministry.

[00:51:22] New episodes will be released every two weeks, so make sure you

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