Connecting Your Spiritual Gifts Strategy to the Kingdom of God

[00:00:00] Well, I'll all right. We're back at the STOKE IT UP podcast, the podcast encouraging you and your journey with God.

[00:00:08] And we want to welcome back of course Kenneth Priest and we're doing a follow-up conversation here to Ken Hempill's podcast with us on Spiritual Gifts.

[00:00:18] That was such a rich, great conversation. If you have not listened to that podcast first, I would encourage you to stop this one.

[00:00:26] And go listen to that one first. And it's one that I've listened to and we'll listen to again, I actually thought to create some kind of spiritual growth worksheet out of it because I wrote down some notes and thought, man, how can we help people with their spiritual gift names?

[00:00:46] So just right off the back, Kenneth. What was your initial reaction to Ken Hempill's discussion on Spiritual Gifts?

[00:00:56] Well, it's one of those areas that I've heard him speak on so many times. And he always does such a great job that it's hard for me to go back and act like I was just hearing it from the first time.

[00:01:11] But it's always full of such good content in some great reminders that as you just sit there and listen to him discuss his viewpoint, which again, I do believe he is probably the foremost authority in Southern Baptist life on dealing with spiritual gifts.

[00:01:31] And really brings just a different approach than most cause approach it from with a full understanding of kingdom mindset and not just looking at, you know, the church from a church growth perspective, but he's looking at kingdom growth and using spiritual gifts from that perspective.

[00:01:55] I've always known this from reading Dr. Hempill and listening to him that he has a Holy Spirit approach to really ministry.

[00:02:11] And ways that I think a lot of us guys that are on the Baptistic Expository, probably think of ourselves as the middle ground area of Christianity in a way that we're not always sensitive to the spirit and he helps us become more sensitive to the spirit without becoming radically panicostal.

[00:02:37] Yeah, I think that it does that element. I think it also kind of makes some guys uncomfortable because they hear the conversation and I think they may be a project with their own presuppositions about what they think he's saying.

[00:02:57] And not really fully understanding which what perspective he's bringing to the table and sometimes I'm afraid people shut the door.

[00:03:09] They just kind of close their mind to what he's talking about because they don't want to hear this different perspective that he's bringing.

[00:03:19] Yeah, amen to that. Well, here's the outline and I'll put this into show notes for everybody. I think this is an outline that you could anybody could actually teach on there and make their own.

[00:03:34] And it would be very effective now in a day of plagiarism, the key word is make it your own. But here's what can him pill said about spiritual gifts number one, they are given by God first Corinthians 12.

[00:03:49] They are discovered by surrender. I didn't see him. I didn't see that coming Romans 12 and then three they identify the church, the purposes to identify the church Ephesians 4.

[00:04:06] You could take that three point outline and teach it in any church and it would work. Yeah, it would be so effective.

[00:04:15] The discovered by surrender I didn't see that coming.

[00:04:19] Yeah, so that was the year ball for me. Right when you look at his outline point one, you go yes right on point three yes right on point two that that's different right.

[00:04:32] Yeah, it's a lot and that's one of the areas that makes people uncomfortable because Ken is more about what we would call on the job training right JT he's like look sometimes you've got to get out there and try it.

[00:04:52] But oftentimes in ministry our first approach to spiritual gifts is let's go take an inventory and see if you should even bother with this.

[00:05:05] And that's what I appreciate about his perspective as he said look, you know sometimes it's good just to go give it a shot.

[00:05:12] Try it out for a little while see if this is where God is wanting to use you and is using you. And if it turns out that he's not guess what that's okay.

[00:05:24] But too many times I believe those that are are leading out a ministry they're they they don't want to lose somebody when they get them in the role.

[00:05:36] And so it really changes their perspective of so that's why they want to use an inventory let's find out if your personality is even going to be good for this let's go through all this process and they're not beginning with what's the surrender in this maybe maybe the first step is.

[00:05:59] You surrendering to what the spirit is leading you to do and seeing how he's going to empower you to do this instead of.

[00:06:09] Am I really put together in such a way that makes sense for me to do this because you know all logic says well maybe I'm not the right person to do this but.

[00:06:19] By the power of the spirit maybe you're exactly the person leads to do this.

[00:06:26] Yeah I love that and if that's true that means we've missed it we've missed it in some ways and our and our curriculum driven.

[00:06:39] Mechanical approach to spiritual gifts another way of another identification of things that can himpill said that I thought we're very.

[00:06:50] That was very different as one he basically said the gift list and the Bible in scripture are not exhausted there's going to be something they could be not in the list I love that.

[00:07:03] Yeah yeah that that's very controversial in our day today right so you know we especially think about being you know okay we're in erratist we believe in the the Bible.

[00:07:14] And and so we approach the spiritual gift list oftentimes and it's almost like it's closed these are the only things that you can do.

[00:07:24] But if you go back to this point three of Ephesians for that the whole purpose of spiritual gifts was to identify the church.

[00:07:32] It really changes the understanding is as look.

[00:07:36] If the definition of a spiritual gift is what edifice the church.

[00:07:42] Then are you not limiting God by saying the things in that are listen the Bible are the only things that can be spiritual gifts.

[00:07:53] If I can do something over here if so take your daughter Brianna right if her singing edifice the church and singing is not listed in this gift list that we have in scripture.

[00:08:11] How do these two things line up.

[00:08:14] How she using something that she's gifted at and so what do we say well you're not identifying the church because that's not in the gift list.

[00:08:25] So you can't you can't do that right we're not going to count your service of singing because it's not listed here.

[00:08:32] Yeah yeah absolutely.

[00:08:37] So let's do this let's come up with a list.

[00:08:43] An action list of things that any any disciple or any pastor or leader could use to help people discover and identify.

[00:08:58] Let me use the other three discover deploy and I'm sorry I'm getting all out of it.

[00:09:03] Discover develop and deploy if you were going to implement this in a church what are some ideas you would give somebody.

[00:09:14] I see what I'm asking I think I don't I don't think we do a good job at this I think we've got shape we've got place and we have these strategies but here's something the doctor and it will say they're really warmed my heart.

[00:09:26] He said in the development phase and I wrote it down mentor train and serve absolutely and I love that mentor part because basically you're deciding you're helping someone as you disciple them.

[00:09:42] Discover their spirit will get them development so I'm wondering what would we say let's say we have a blank slate what would we say to a church now to say okay this is the way you ought to approach spiritual gifts in a way that going to help the body.

[00:09:54] So let's go back in this might even be kind of taking a little different direction the kin went but you might remember Robert Lewis is book the church of irresistible influence right.

[00:10:05] Yeah, so you know coming out a little rock our console he wrote this book in the whole idea was how are people in the church.

[00:10:14] Being an irresistible influence in the community so how are they serving the church by serving their community.

[00:10:23] And this kind of steps back and says number one discovering is about more than just what can you do that is within the framework of the walls of this building because that becomes this whole internal idea right.

[00:10:41] And so discovery begins by by kind of tearing the walls down and saying what can you do that first of all builds up the kingdom of God from a perspective that's not just internal for the sake of our little sea church right.

[00:11:04] But the big sea church of Christianity the church that Jesus died on the cross for what how can we discover that and so we begin by asking that question what is it that.

[00:11:19] How can you discover how you can serve the community I mean, you know we want to encourage Christians to go into politics right and what's the purpose of going into politics but have a Christian influence in this in this field.

[00:11:35] And so this becomes a discovery element if that's an area that that I actually could have a positive Christian impact and influence in shouldn't I engage in that.

[00:11:50] And therefore if the church is going to support that does it that mean we need to change our perspective on volunteerism in the church.

[00:12:03] And it's begin to talk in areas of it's not just about volunteering in this building but it's volunteering in this community to serve in such a way.

[00:12:16] But it has to be done in such a way that you're actually having a Christian influence so we're not talking about just, you know, going down to the.

[00:12:32] Right, I mean we are worse we're legitimately talking about how do you discover something that helps impact the kingdom of God and a positive.

[00:12:45] And so I think that's the first step is to discover is asking that question.

[00:12:53] Is what I'm doing.

[00:12:56] Have to get influence or an impact on the greater kingdom of God because I believe and you might disagree with me, I'll believe that there are times people are using their gifts within the church and it's not benefiting the church one bit.

[00:13:14] There's actually no thought to how this benefits the future of the church.

[00:13:22] They're just kind of, oh I can I can do this and so I go do it but they're not doing it for a kingdom agenda they're just doing it to get by and it's that full idea of what is meaningful service.

[00:13:36] And what's not, if I'm making sense.

[00:13:39] Yeah, I'm catching what you're saying. I get it. What I hear you saying is that is the difference between having a passion a pursuit that is gospel and great commission as opposed to being kind of perfunctory.

[00:13:55] Yeah, that's that's how going through the motion. Okay, I wrote down that what what can you do to build up the kingdom of God and the big sea church and you expanded on that to say expand or broaden the areas of service beyond the local church. What that include the workplace.

[00:14:18] It may be if again we're talking about volunteerism to have kingdom influence and kingdom impact and so I think that's that that fine line right.

[00:14:30] I think this becomes so let's go ahead.

[00:14:35] Well, you're saying then you're you're drawing the distinction between local church spiritual gift service and kingdom service.

[00:14:44] Not that they're exclusively all the time in your mind separate I'm not saying I know you don't believe that, but you're saying you're given.

[00:14:51] I hear you say and there's a little warning that what I hear you saying is there's more opportunity when you expand the definition and opportunity to the kingdom of God rather than your local church.

[00:15:03] Absolutely just your local church.

[00:15:04] Yeah, so the idea is there's more to it than just the local church there's the consideration of the bigger kingdom of God that has to be a part in my opinion has to be a part of thinking when we're talking about discovery.

[00:15:21] Is this something that can have more of an impact than just in my church the way that it is and so that's where we have to figure out that separation of the two.

[00:15:37] Yeah, okay now we're talking about discovering spiritual gifts.

[00:15:45] What else would you add to that for the discovery of spiritual gifts?

[00:15:50] Anything so yes, so once we tear now the walls of so to speak.

[00:15:55] The discovery then moves into I think you have to you have to come up.

[00:16:01] I believe you have to take each one of these discovered a built deploy and go back through the initial outline right discover is based on is it given from God discover if it is surrender discover if it edifies the church.

[00:16:17] And so in each case we're asking those three questions about discovery and then you're going to ask each of those questions about develop.

[00:16:26] And then you're going to ask each of those questions about deployment as well.

[00:16:30] And so in discovering we're tearing down the walls and now we're going back and we're asking question okay can we legitimately say this is given my God.

[00:16:40] And this is where again it gets that uncomfortable area first Corinthians we have a gift list, wrong.

[00:16:46] Which these different gift list and Dr. Hempel's argument is you're limiting yourself if you think it's only what the list is and so is this given by God and so it's you know through prayer and through the study of God's word I believe we can discover is God the one that's gifting you.

[00:17:09] To be able to accomplish what it is is being accomplished and so.

[00:17:16] It walks through that process and so if I'm if I'm working if I'm starting from ground zero in the church.

[00:17:24] I tear down the walls and I think more than just.

[00:17:27] Little sea church which is my local church but I'm thinking the big sea church and then I'm saying okay now.

[00:17:34] Is this given by God so is you come to me as a lay person and you say you know man I'm really great at.

[00:17:45] What ever x is I hate putting labels on this because when pastors talk about this they automatically go you know oh I'm great at working with children or I'm great at you know teaching or I'm going and so we all we pigeonholed spiritual gifts already by the illustrations we use.

[00:18:05] And so I think we have to be cautious when we're using illustrations because that kind of then downplays what other people's giftedness is and not taking that into consideration.

[00:18:18] And so we come in and say is this item this is it given from God to be able to to is it something I can surrender to.

[00:18:29] And does it at a find the church and so we ask those three questions about each one of the areas.

[00:18:36] Fairfully, biblically and seeking out guidance from others to help make the best decisions in that so that we can determine.

[00:18:48] Is this from God or not and I believe that that is a process right it's not something that we can just sit down and make a big list and say.

[00:18:59] This is all we have this is all we can do in the church it really depends on the church that God has brought together.

[00:19:08] Who has got assembled here as a local congregation with all of these unique abilities and gifts.

[00:19:19] In order to help advance the kingdom for this particular time in history.

[00:19:24] And so every church is going to be unique every situation is going to be different and therefore the pastor needs to be the one that that's working there's now if you've got a staff that can help you with this.

[00:19:36] A volunteer team and that one church I serve we put together a volunteer team that worked with me to help people discover and deploy and implement and so that you know if you've got people that can walk with you through this that's the best way to do it because.

[00:19:52] It's not being done in silo right it's being done in community which this supported the cycle making strategy right you and I both believe that to cycle making happens in community might be small group community but this is what should be taking place and so we can work through that together.

[00:20:15] Would you say that this should be a church wide strategy and what I'm thinking is when I wrote the book new believer.

[00:20:28] I started taking new believers stuff and I I said I realized what was going to happen I learned this partially the hard way.

[00:20:35] You have to take everyone in your church through it there can't be a grandfathered in kind of mentality because it's going to create a division you don't want.

[00:20:45] Yeah, so I have a chapter in there about movement that says basically it's a simple 10 point outline but it's a strategy it's not perfect strategy either you kind of got to develop it in your own context.

[00:20:58] But I'm sitting here thinking if we're going to do this we have to do it comprehensively what what do you think about what I'm saying.

[00:21:07] Yeah, I agree with you and I think you know this will borrow a line from another podcast that's going to be released pretty soon with the carl Vader's you know this is a culture shift issue.

[00:21:17] You're absolutely right it's got to influence and impact everyone in the congregation so it's a comprehensive culture shift within the church for most churches now if you're a church planter.

[00:21:30] Then you get to develop this within the DNA of your church from the beginning.

[00:21:36] But for the established church this is going back and saying we've kind of have a culture shift if we're going to if we're going to be this way.

[00:21:44] If we're going to do this then we're going to have an expectation for everyone to go through this and to be a part of discovered to fill up deploy.

[00:21:55] And what does this look like for everyone but I think that's also a part of the idea of tearing the walls down most people have always approached spiritual gifts from.

[00:22:06] Only thinking about my church how can I serve my church and so they're kind of closed to the idea of how this impacts the kingdom at large.

[00:22:19] And by tearing the walls down we begin to open the door of service to other people that they didn't realize that was available to them in the past.

[00:22:35] So what I'm writing down here as we're strategizing or conversating through this.

[00:22:42] I don't think that's a word.

[00:22:44] Yeah, is a church wide strategy would be let we're going to have to do a teaching series on this and that the figure out in my mind is the past where I'm going I got a teach on spiritual gifts.

[00:22:54] I needed to be holistic, but I can't teach a 38 list.

[00:23:01] Sarah, Sarah, and series. I'm not going to do that, but I have to do something that changes the culture like you just said I would I'm thinking you got to announce this to everybody.

[00:23:12] I need everybody on board with this no Christian should not know their spiritual gifts.

[00:23:20] You have to know somewhere you're gifted and I'm going to we're going to take Sunday morning time this is where you and I could come in on this because what do you do at this was sermon based small groups.

[00:23:31] Right. I would be like we need every small group to develop question we need to develop questions that help people discover develop and deploy and work through the questions like you just said, you know under discover let's say we ask all three of these questions under all three of these deeds is it given by God.

[00:23:52] Is it discovered by surrender is it going to identify the church all those things need to happen. How we're going to make sure that everybody goes through it and get it.

[00:24:03] Yep, then it's got to go through small groups absolutely and of course you know you know you're going to miss some people by doing this but the reality it does create an opportunity for you to start some new groups.

[00:24:16] Because you're going to have those people that go wait a second I'm not in a small group but I want to participate. So you create some new groups to get them engaged and so this is an opportunity for new group creation to develop out of it.

[00:24:30] It's also an opportunity for training because you're going to have to take all of those leaders through the process first of understanding how to do this themselves how to help their small group ask these questions and answer these questions and walk through.

[00:24:49] And so this is what's going to challenge some pastors in a culture where training has kind of taken a back murderer.

[00:25:00] This is it for the pastor to come back out and say look I need to meet with the teachers on a weekly basis here's what I'm preaching here's how it's going to impact your group and here's how you can God that conversation to be a part of this and so it really is a comprehensive culture shift

[00:25:19] in the church on multiple levels not just for the purpose of discovering and developing and deploying but for the purpose of how we do this within our own leadership structure.

[00:25:33] Yeah that means there would be plenty of work to do and I'm given it away what we record with carol bators but it's just like new believer follow up there's plenty of people if you if you count everyone in a church of 70 to 100 people.

[00:25:47] And let's say the pastor starts it and the pastor is going to disciple this and then by the time you get to what I would call the externals you're going to take them through some spiritual gifts.

[00:25:58] Understanding and discipling I can guarantee you that's going to take you one year doing what we do.

[00:26:06] Absolutely you're it's got time you throw in the holidays not everybody's going to be at every meeting by the time you do that and get let's say I would say take your top three people through it then you're going to deputize those three people to go get three people and then you're going to get your leadership team maybe in a broader way like a 30 person classroom if you got to do that but then after that.

[00:26:27] You do a church wide campaign you still got to make it feel small there's plenty of work to be done.

[00:26:34] There's plenty of work to be done it's going to take time you can't silver bullet this.

[00:26:42] You have to take the and the thing is you can't put a timeline on it you can't say y'all are expected to get this finish in your small group by this timeframe because every small group's going to be different.

[00:26:55] And every need within that small group is different and so it's going to take longer for some shorter for others and we have to be okay with that.

[00:27:05] Yeah, that's the aggravating thing we found with new believer follow up same thing is that we want to put book ends on it and if you're if you're stuck on that it will drive you nuts not knowing what the end date will be.

[00:27:20] Yeah yeah and see I would I would it's the best thing.

[00:27:24] It was it is and I would advocate that this absolutely 100% has to be a part of new believers right so you get the entire church through this but now this becomes a part of your new believer culture.

[00:27:38] So as you take your book on new believers that you're taking them through the next step is hey we've also got to do this as a part of our disciple making among new believers and so everything becomes this open ended book.

[00:27:54] Right, we know there's going to be a book end. There's going to be an into this but I can't time how long's going to take to walk these new believers through the disciple making process of being a new believer and especially when I add in spiritual gifts as a part of it.

[00:28:12] Yeah, I love that can you imagine that if every new believer was disabled and came out of that process after one year let's say.

[00:28:22] And new and had an idea of their spiritual gift in this and how to use to use Dr. Hempels word to deploy that spiritual gift whether it's in the local church the big sea church for the.

[00:28:36] Mission field I mean that that would be a lot better right now I don't I don't see anyone doing anything with spiritual.

[00:28:44] So you want to talk about a medical shift this is a radical shift.

[00:28:52] Yeah, it is well we'll put this these quick notes in the show notes it's got me stirred up to actually maybe write something that would be beneficial and a PDF form that we could give to people and just go okay this is what it looks like you got to have movement or

[00:29:08] strategy.

[00:29:10] It's got to be more than just a 16 week study because I found often that we don't we do the studies but the studies don't match the structure of the church and anything we do the doesn't do that is just going to be short live.

[00:29:25] Yeah, I'll make sure I put this in the show notes.

[00:29:28] Yeah, so as a part of our closing thoughts on these things think about those those other three points of develop which is the mentor the train and then the the serve.

[00:29:41] You know as you're developing you know you take this as a pastor Alan and you go.

[00:29:50] How am I going to mentor someone through this process and how do I train my small group leaders to mentor their group through this process and.

[00:30:03] Well, well, well, we're on that one you just go ahead and kind of outline force what is the difference between a mentoring and a training process most people would hear that and they would think it's the same thing.

[00:30:15] But to mentor to train and to serve what it happens at the differentiate for you.

[00:30:21] In my mind, mentoring is going to look more like one on one on two one on three deciphering in a way that's very personal.

[00:30:32] It's going to have a disciple component to it the training could be a little larger group.

[00:30:38] It could be zeroed in on just this gifting and where we want you to serve making sure you know how to do this position it's not very broad.

[00:30:50] That's what I'm thinking we want you to be skilled spiritually skilled at succeeding and serving and then let's get you in in the serve part.

[00:31:01] You didn't ask me this part, but the serve part is actually okay, let's put you together with some other people that have been doing it for a while and can put you at ease and whatever it is and you're going to be a part of a group you're not going to have to go this alone.

[00:31:14] We want you to serve in community so that you're encouraged.

[00:31:18] Yeah, that's my quick response to that.

[00:31:20] What did I leave out?

[00:31:22] No, no, I agree with it. It actually comes back to point number two at the very beginning discovering basterrender that whole serving is we're going to attach you with someone to give you the opportunity to.

[00:31:37] People may not like to let you know give you an opportunity to fail if this is what you're supposed to do right and we're okay with that.

[00:31:45] And so that whole serving is discovering basterrender and so that whole mentor train I agree with you 100% because I can mentor you to do something.

[00:31:55] But then I got to take you through some specific training if you're going to be the outreach leader or if you're going to be the in reach leader a care group whatever it is.

[00:32:05] We're going to have specific training set up for every single one of these opportunities that we're discovering ourselves as a church.

[00:32:14] To do, but then deploying you also comes back in this development phase if I've already got you serving somewhere that's helping you discover basterrender by the time you're ready to actually deploy on your own.

[00:32:29] You will have tried some things.

[00:32:32] You will have seen what you're really gifted at of what you're not gifted at.

[00:32:40] Yeah, I like that that's a hard one too because I always want to make you and I are both generalist kind of pastors and we're willing to jump in almost anywhere so I have to remind myself that doesn't work all the time there's some stuff that I should not be doing.

[00:32:59] Even if I'm a generalist, there's somebody that's more gifted at it.

[00:33:04] They're going to be better at it or however you want to describe it.

[00:33:08] Absolutely.

[00:33:09] Well good conversation man we're excited about this well put some of these notes in the show notes and let it be a resource to you.

[00:33:17] I really encourage any pastor or leader or teacher to take these notes the spiritual gifts are given by God first Corinthians 12 they're discovered by surrender Romans 12 number three is there,

[00:33:29] They edify the church Ephesians 4 and then the way we interface with this and make it a bridge as we discover developing deploy the spiritual gift that is a great.

[00:33:40] Steaky note style approach to spiritual gifts and so if we can be a resource to you let us know highly recommend that you get Ken hemp Hills book you are gifted it's a good read it'll take you a minute it's not too big, but it's just not it's a good read it's going to be one you're going to want to think through.

[00:34:01] And here's one was the audience yeah do it.

[00:34:09] I guess first yeah please as soon as this is over go listen to Dr. hemp Hills conversation with us because you will be blessed by it.

[00:34:19] Yeah that was the best one sit down one teaching shot in the arm on spiritual gifts that was the best I've ever heard to be honest it was great balance I'm probably being a little bias because of the pre recording conversation we had which I want to bring up again maybe and get doctor

[00:34:39] I think I'll be able to come on and talk about that I'll leave that as a mystery for everybody listening right now but here's the first Corinthians 12 verse 12 says it says for just as the body is one and yet has many members and all the members of the body.

[00:34:59] Through many though many excuse me though many are one body so too is Christ we are individually members of the body and Christ and God as a role for you to play.

[00:35:13] And living out the gospel through the great commission in your life and so the still good up on gas is this they podcast encouraging you and your journey with God to try to help mobilize and encourage.

[00:35:24] Through good conversations about the things that matter in the church I always like to say this.

[00:35:31] Ministries not about doing everything it's about doing the right things and knowing your spiritual gift and serving in the body is right.

[00:35:40] So be encouraged in that any vital comments can now just look forward to us connecting next time as we further our conversations to us.

[00:35:48] Thank you guys for looking up.

[00:35:50] All right man well we'll see all of you guys soon thanks for tuning in and supporting the podcast God bless later.