Cultivating a Heavenward Mindset in an Epicurean World - with Cameron Cole

[00:00:03] I think one of the biggest differences in my life has come through my son's death and this really

[00:00:09] wonderful and generous work the Lord has done in my life to give me a heavenward sense is

[00:00:15] I just live with a

[00:00:19] appropriate priority on

[00:00:22] the judgment seat at Christ

[00:00:25] and wanting to offer my life as

[00:00:27] a precious offering to the Lord

[00:00:30] It's a good thing for us to enjoy the blessings of this life and at the same time like

[00:00:35] The judgment seat of Christ and thinking about the you know the reward

[00:00:40] It really helps us to think about what is really meaningful

[00:00:45] Where am I really investing my time? Where am I investing my energy?

[00:00:49] As it pertains to wanting to live a worshipful life to offer to God judgment seat at Christ

[00:00:55] Cameron Cole experienced every parent's worst nightmare

[00:01:02] They put their son to bed one night and in the morning they awoke to find that he had died in his sleep

[00:01:08] However, the message of the gospel is that Cameron's son did indeed wake up in a greater and more profound way

[00:01:16] He awoke to eternal life with Jesus his Savior

[00:01:19] In the wake of his son's death Cameron did a deep dive into the passages in the New Testament

[00:01:25] Where Paul the apostle writes about heaven and eternal life

[00:01:30] In our discussion Cameron shares what he learned through this experience and how it made him more heavenly minded

[00:01:36] Cameron also shares about how the hope of eternal life ought to shape the way that we live here and now

[00:01:43] I hope you'll enjoy this conversation. I'll be back at the end with some final words

[00:01:50] Cameron, thanks for being a guest today on theology for the people

[00:01:53] Nick thanks for having me

[00:01:55] So Cameron you recently wrote a book called heaven word and this book

[00:01:59] It deals with what was born out of a personal situation that you went through and I want to talk about that in a moment

[00:02:05] but

[00:02:06] For our listeners to get to know you maybe tell us a little bit about yourself and where you serve what you do in ministry

[00:02:13] Sure. Yeah, so I live in Birmingham, Alabama

[00:02:16] part of Dixie

[00:02:17] And I've worked in youth and family ministry for 19 years at an incant church in Birmingham

[00:02:24] I also am the founder and chairman of ministry called rooted that promotes gospel centered youth and family ministry

[00:02:31] Our vision is that every child receives grace filled gospel centered bible saturated discipleship at church and at home

[00:02:38] And you know, we do that through content or blog podcasts youtube channel book publishing

[00:02:43] Then training our annual conference youth ministry mentor cohorts

[00:02:48] Family ministry mentor cohorts and then curriculum bible curriculum

[00:02:52] And yeah, and I have

[00:02:55] Really really sweet super cute wife and I've got three children who are here with me. They are in kindergarten

[00:03:03] Third grade fifth grade and then I've got much much howl who would be 13? Who's with the lord?

[00:03:10] Yeah, and so that story is I know the one that out of which this book was born in a way

[00:03:15] So would you mind sharing that story?

[00:03:18] Yeah, um, so it's interesting because there I've written another book about the story called therefore

[00:03:22] I have hoop 12 truths that comforts sustained to redeem and child and in tragedy

[00:03:26] And that book was a crossway as well. But that is that was written like four months after my son died

[00:03:31] But while that was going on

[00:03:34] The lord was doing something really significant in my life upon his death and you know, he he was a perfectly healthy child

[00:03:40] We did we still don't have an explanation probably died. He was three years and 55 days and

[00:03:45] Same as cam and cam died in his sleep

[00:03:48] And which you know for

[00:03:51] Incidents of of deaths of people between the age of one and 18

[00:03:55] For a child to die

[00:03:57] Between one and 18 it's like one in 100,000 deaths. It's very very rare after the age of one

[00:04:01] But a child died or asleep

[00:04:03] But the day before he died he we had this very supernatural conversation where he

[00:04:09] asked about wanting to go see jesus and asked we get the car and go see him and that led to a conversation

[00:04:14] about heaven and

[00:04:16] Yes, we'd meet adam and even heaven and we told him, you know, god forgives their sins

[00:04:20] He pledged he would not eat from the tree

[00:04:22] We told him everyone eats from the tree. That's why jesus came and really the last

[00:04:29] Substantive thing I heard him say, you know that day before he died was

[00:04:34] Jesus down the cross jesus died for my sins. So there was this

[00:04:38] You know kind of like three-year-old profession of faith

[00:04:42] and

[00:04:44] Yeah, that night I was on the youth camp out and he just my wife

[00:04:47] They found him dead in his bed and

[00:04:50] You know, but on his side of it. He woke up. He woke up with christ. He woke up, you know

[00:04:58] in glory

[00:04:59] and so

[00:05:00] So

[00:05:02] Out of that death, you know, I have this I have this new reality

[00:05:05] Of my child's living in heaven

[00:05:08] You know heaven can can be kind of abstract or ethereal for people

[00:05:12] But man, you know, you have a loved one living there. It starts to become more concrete and real

[00:05:16] I'll tell you

[00:05:18] When you have a three-year-old child

[00:05:20] Who just professed faith in christ the day before

[00:05:23] And talked about wanting to see jesus it becomes real real real real

[00:05:28] very very concrete and so

[00:05:31] there was this

[00:05:33] heightened and amplified sense of heavenly mind in this in my life

[00:05:37] Um in that year after he died in a way where I honestly felt a little cuckoo

[00:05:41] I felt a little cuckoo for cocoa puffs

[00:05:43] I would you know, just think about it constantly

[00:05:46] I I would

[00:05:48] Forget to pay a bill

[00:05:49] And then have $15 late fee and that'd be the kind of thing ordinarily that would irk me

[00:05:54] But I was just like this $15 is not going to matter an eternity. It's just not going to matter

[00:05:59] And I even had a kind of a misguided awkward instant where

[00:06:03] There's a person our neighborhood

[00:06:05] Parked in the wrong spot and they got towed and

[00:06:09] They were really mad and they were going to a bible study. They're a believer

[00:06:14] And I was gonna cost them $150. It's like, you know

[00:06:17] In the grand scheme of eternity

[00:06:19] When you're in heaven, you're not gonna miss $150 didn't go over well did not go over well at all

[00:06:24] But even to like, you know, I was working at a church and

[00:06:28] You know when you're teaching a bible study or preaching a sermon

[00:06:32] Yes, sometimes there can be a temptation to

[00:06:34] Maybe

[00:06:36] Not teach the hard thing in the passage. Maybe kind of gloss over that not not really go into it

[00:06:41] And man the this is stuck with me this

[00:06:44] Secretary thinks five ten that was all good for the judgment seat of christ to give an account for what we have done in the flesh

[00:06:49] But the good and the bad

[00:06:51] I just started to the seeing christ seeing my son

[00:06:55] knowing that the life I was living

[00:06:57] That it would it was all collectively an offering a worship to the lord that I would place before him

[00:07:04] At the judgment said christ that would be seen by him in that moment

[00:07:09] I just started to give me a sense of focus and evangelism

[00:07:12] A sense of focus and just integrity

[00:07:16] proclaiming the truth

[00:07:17] And what was really important? So it was it was this

[00:07:21] Out of the circumstances of having a child in heaven

[00:07:23] My sense of heavenly mind in this was very very amplified

[00:07:27] But I don't know that if it would have been sustained

[00:07:30] As I see in the book if I hadn't I haven't met a friend

[00:07:34] And the pages of scripture and the friend was the apostle paul

[00:07:37] I started reading paul's letters just to my devotional life and that year after cam died

[00:07:43] and

[00:07:44] I read it with new eyes

[00:07:46] I you know like when you're

[00:07:48] If you've had a tragic loss and you're reading the Psalms and you go through the lamentations

[00:07:52] You're going to read the lamentations with new eyes

[00:07:54] A lot of the anguish that the speakers

[00:07:57] Express in the Psalms

[00:07:59] You can identify with in a deeper way

[00:08:02] And so you know our our life experience

[00:08:05] Does in ways

[00:08:07] Enhance our ability to read scripture

[00:08:10] In the sense we can identify with the different experiences represented in the bible

[00:08:14] But for me when I was reading paul's letters, it's just like out of nowhere

[00:08:18] I started to notice that heaven

[00:08:20] Was integrated just like to everything he wrote

[00:08:24] You connect everything to eternity

[00:08:27] And I just started to blow my mind and so I started to highlight every reference to to heaven in my bible

[00:08:34] Every eschatological reference

[00:08:36] And the pages recovery

[00:08:38] And so that led to you know

[00:08:40] A seven-year journey where

[00:08:43] I started to see

[00:08:45] It's like I started to see that wow

[00:08:48] Now what I've had what's happened to me substantially has certainly given me a heavenly mindedness

[00:08:52] But if I'd never my son had not died, I've never had an experience like this

[00:08:57] The just the basic foundations

[00:08:59] Of our salvation

[00:09:01] Eschatological nature of our salvation

[00:09:04] Particularly that which we see in paul's letters

[00:09:07] Should make any christian

[00:09:09] heavenly minded

[00:09:10] You know I studied in my masters was on the topic of theological method

[00:09:15] So what we call integrative theology and

[00:09:19] One of the things with integrative theology

[00:09:20] It's really interesting if you look at the history of it is that if you look at like the early days, you know

[00:09:25] Especially like roman catholic and orthodox church. They would focus a lot on

[00:09:29] Two sources of theology scripture and reason and well, sorry scripture and tradition with the reformation

[00:09:35] They added in a third and they said it's it's scripture tradition and reason

[00:09:41] And then john westley was the one who really advocated for adding in a fourth

[00:09:45] And so he called it the sometimes called the westley and quadrilateral

[00:09:49] And it's the four sources of theology by which we do our theological method

[00:09:53] But the one that he advocated for adding in was experience

[00:09:57] And a lot of people when they first hear that I think they misunderstand what it means because they think

[00:10:03] Well, hey, wait a second. We shouldn't be basing our theological beliefs on experience

[00:10:08] But westley was just saying no our experience affects the way that we do theology

[00:10:13] It affects the ways that we emphasize things it affects the things that we focus on

[00:10:18] And it affects what we believe and and and I think he was absolutely right

[00:10:22] And you know, he gave a lot of caveats with that as well that would assuage many people's

[00:10:27] Perhaps initial hesitations with hearing that to say hey, it's not that our you know our

[00:10:34] Experience isn't the primary thing we use in doing theology, but it affects it

[00:10:39] And so anyway that that reminds me of what you're saying right now is that

[00:10:43] Your experience affected

[00:10:46] The way that you do theology and the way that you also live it out

[00:10:49] And can I ask how has the past 10 years that have gone by have there been

[00:10:56] Changes in it has there been a development in the way that you've processed it as a family

[00:11:02] Yeah, so I'll say um

[00:11:05] You know, I'm glad you asked that so with her family. I think that one

[00:11:09] Blessing, you know, we have three other children here a younger

[00:11:12] Including one our third child was born

[00:11:15] You know with no not scheduled or induced or anything on the one year anniversary of this funeral

[00:11:20] And so, you know something that we're really blessed with and this is very much an eschatological reality

[00:11:25] Is that for my kids they are clear?

[00:11:28] They are clear about death

[00:11:30] They are clear about eternity

[00:11:32] They know that there is a heaven and they know that there is a hell

[00:11:35] Because that's where their brother lives and we

[00:11:39] Honestly, not a day goes by where we don't talk about him where he's not mentioned in some kind of way

[00:11:44] He's very much a part of like our family life and our family conversation and consciousness

[00:11:49] But you know my kids are blessed to have clarity on that because

[00:11:55] You know, we live in a world that is

[00:11:58] By and large, epiturium I talk about that and heaven word this book and

[00:12:02] Because they have the word how eternity change can change your life on earth

[00:12:06] but you know, epichurianism is a

[00:12:09] ancient philosophy

[00:12:11] That comes out of the greek world and it flows into the the roman world

[00:12:15] You know popularly in the roman world. You see a licrecia some horus

[00:12:19] But basically the notion was

[00:12:21] It's heat and as you know maximized pleasure minimized pain

[00:12:24] Most a lot of people are familiar with the slogan carp idiom that comes out of

[00:12:30] Epichurianism that's in horus poetry

[00:12:32] Most people are not familiar with what comes after that sees the day

[00:12:37] trusting in the future as little as possible

[00:12:39] Credo la fatura for minimum

[00:12:41] And basically, you know this belief of this he mystic world view that epichurianism was

[00:12:46] It was driven by the belief that there's no afterlife trusting in the future as little as possible

[00:12:50] They were they were naturalists. They believed that

[00:12:53] There's no gods or nothing spiritual when you die you die

[00:12:56] So how do we live when we live by maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain?

[00:13:00] And that's kind of what you see in our world today. Like it's a very heed mystic culture

[00:13:04] Um, and and you can see it in this um, slogan fomo. Sorry fomo and yolo

[00:13:09] Yolo is an eschatological statement

[00:13:12] You only live once like this life is it and so what's the response the response is to

[00:13:19] To pursue you really to pursue as much pleasure as possible

[00:13:22] and

[00:13:24] It leads to pretty self-centered meanings lives

[00:13:27] And so, you know

[00:13:29] I and I you know think about this when I when I started to study this before I wrote the book

[00:13:33] I did a survey in a sunny school class on heaven

[00:13:36] And I asked as multi-generational sunny school class

[00:13:38] You have some old people some young people and I asked people

[00:13:42] To write on a chart how many years

[00:13:45] Have they been in the church and how many lessons have they been telling on heaven?

[00:13:49] And basically when I factored all that people were taught a lesson on heaven about once every 18 years

[00:13:54] Wow. Yeah, so we you know, we just really don't teach on heaven and hell and

[00:13:59] afterlife and eschatology, we just don't teach on it enough and and you know the cultural waters are certainly

[00:14:05] diluting anything eschatological

[00:14:08] And so I'm really grateful for my kids that their life experience

[00:14:13] will kind of cut against that

[00:14:16] Uh, epicureanism there's you know, yolo kind of mindset

[00:14:21] I would say too in reference to your question that

[00:14:24] I found that the heavenly mindedness that that I experience

[00:14:29] Is less based in

[00:14:32] The reality that my son lives in heaven

[00:14:35] It's more based in the realities of scripture

[00:14:38] Of what the Lord taught me about

[00:14:41] You know my the heavenly nature of my own salvation here and now

[00:14:45] Through union with Christ that we see you know that we see in Paul

[00:14:49] And and that you know, I use this term the book heaven word that the title

[00:14:54] heaven word is something I coin and

[00:14:56] I say heaven is you know information about heaven heavenly mindness is a deliberate discipline

[00:15:01] By which we think about things above like it consistent with

[00:15:05] Colossians 3 1

[00:15:08] But heaven word is when the Holy Spirit doesn't work in your life

[00:15:12] Where eternity just kind of becomes

[00:15:15] The air you breathe it's just the backdrop of your life, you know

[00:15:18] And that's what I'm blessed to have received from the Lord

[00:15:22] Blessed to have seen for the Lord out of my son's death and then that's why I was compelled to write this book because it's been so transformative for me

[00:15:29] So life-giving giving me so much perspective giving me so much more perseverance

[00:15:33] in just little ways and in big ways

[00:15:36] And so that that you know eternity is just kind of

[00:15:40] All my mind

[00:15:41] You know all the time even to a point where the other day I was like

[00:15:44] Traveling up the hill and I was a little bit disappointed starting to realize that

[00:15:47] All these dreams all these things I want to do with my kids

[00:15:51] All these vacations I want to go on experience and have like it's just I'm gonna be able to do it all

[00:15:55] There's only so much money. There's only so much time

[00:15:58] And I was kind of feeling a little sad. That's like that's fine like my all my children know the Lord

[00:16:02] They've all professed faith in Christ

[00:16:04] We're gonna we're gonna have eternity and the new heaven and new earth together

[00:16:08] And I don't have to you know, I I can certainly I want to

[00:16:11] Be a good steward this life and enjoy the blessings the Lord's given me

[00:16:14] And I don't have to have this sense of pressure and FOMO

[00:16:18] Because I've got eternity

[00:16:20] With my wife and my kids and they're having a new earth. That's a real that's real

[00:16:25] Yeah, no, that's really good. And I want to talk about that like what are some of the implications of this heavenly hope

[00:16:30] You know my wife she lost both her parents when she was pretty young and

[00:16:34] She always used to tell me that like when Jesus says that where your

[00:16:40] Treasure is there your heart will be also

[00:16:42] Like maybe it's not his

[00:16:44] Like primary interpretive intent, but she said that she always thought about it in terms of that

[00:16:50] Like when the people you love are in heaven then that that's where your heart is focused as well

[00:16:55] Yeah, and well, and I think that one of the things that I

[00:16:59] really argue in this is

[00:17:02] You know a lot of times people don't really think about the fabric of heaven like what makes heaven heaven

[00:17:09] What is going to make it?

[00:17:11] What is going to make it so euphorically wonderful?

[00:17:15] and

[00:17:16] It's an article for gospel coalition

[00:17:19] talking about getting clear on what those elements are because

[00:17:23] That's going to be our highest contentment is in heaven

[00:17:26] and like

[00:17:28] Those realities in a partial sense all of them are present

[00:17:32] With us now except you know like we live in a fallen world and we still have sinful flesh and

[00:17:38] And all of that but you know we're we are unified with christ

[00:17:42] We do have the holy spirit and the ability to stay notice them

[00:17:45] We keep on sending obviously our you know, we'll continue to falter, but we can't say notice them

[00:17:50] We can see christ and not not like we're going to see him in heaven. We can see him in his word

[00:17:55] We can see him in his work. You know as we pray we can see him in creation

[00:17:59] We can have communion with other people got a communion. We're gonna have in heaven

[00:18:03] And and so you know, I think that when I write about this in heaven word

[00:18:08] How when I would think about dying going to heaven

[00:18:12] I think that would for have this idea of first thing I'm going to do is go find my kid

[00:18:17] But I would say

[00:18:19] You know and we all have a person in heaven and really the first person we go to is jesus

[00:18:24] I mean we are we are going to that's what makes heaven heaven

[00:18:29] this perfect union with christ and seeing jesus face to face

[00:18:33] and so and so I think that

[00:18:37] The heavenly mind in this that started

[00:18:40] With a longing for a person in heaven who is my child

[00:18:44] Has shifted more toward

[00:18:47] A longing for christ

[00:18:50] And I long to be with christ and certainly I'm pumped to see my son. I'm pumped to see my dad and my grandparents

[00:18:56] but

[00:18:57] But the primary thing is christ, we won't be able to take our eyes off them

[00:19:02] Yeah

[00:19:04] Well, let's talk a little bit about pauline eschatology. I know that's a big focus of your book

[00:19:08] So

[00:19:09] How would you define like what is unique about pauline eschatology? Are there some ways, you know when we talk about

[00:19:15] Why is this specifically pauline eschatology? Why not just biblical eschatology?

[00:19:20] Yeah, and I think that's I think that's important that you make that distinction because it is biblical biblical eschatology. It's not

[00:19:27] It's not

[00:19:28] Just like paul believes us and everybody else is at odds with him

[00:19:32] But paul does, you know a big part of paul's whole theology

[00:19:36] Is based on understanding the eschatological implications of the coming of christ

[00:19:40] And so he very explicitly

[00:19:43] It is focusing on

[00:19:45] the the christ event

[00:19:48] And the eschatology for that but also how

[00:19:51] That has applied to us through union with christ and the coming of the holy spirit

[00:19:55] And so I think a critical thing that you know person first needs to to know is what the jewish expectation was

[00:20:02] As it pertains to

[00:20:04] The end times and so in the old testament, you know

[00:20:07] You kind of you have the day of the work which is the coming of god to the earth

[00:20:11] Which would be you know the end of the present evil age

[00:20:14] And it would be followed by the age to come the presence of heaven on earth

[00:20:18] That we would the language we'd probably use as the new heaven of the earth

[00:20:22] and so jews were expecting

[00:20:25] God to come to the earth

[00:20:26] And um for the age to come to follow

[00:20:30] And so, you know for paul

[00:20:32] He has this turn on a dime moment

[00:20:35] When he meets jesus on the road to demascus

[00:20:38] Because you know there were certain signs

[00:20:42] That are in the old testament

[00:20:44] That were pointing to the day of the lord like these these certain things are going to occur that there's going to be a resurrection of the dead

[00:20:51] There's going to be an outpouring of the holy spirit

[00:20:53] There's going to be a great judgment that occurs and there's going to be a divine visitation

[00:20:59] And so it's kind of like a checklist of these four things will accompany the day of the lord

[00:21:03] So on the road to demascus when

[00:21:06] Jesus appears to paul

[00:21:08] And paul realizes wait a minute

[00:21:10] jesus is god

[00:21:12] jesus is god

[00:21:14] And he's risen from the dead

[00:21:16] The box has started to get checked

[00:21:18] He realizes god has come to the earth he came to the earth and the person of jesus. There's been a divine visitation

[00:21:23] There's been a resurrection of the dead

[00:21:25] jesus has risen from the dead

[00:21:27] Which he calls the first fruits of the

[00:21:30] ultimate resurrection of the body

[00:21:32] and then

[00:21:34] You know outpouring the holy spirit at pentecost that box checked

[00:21:37] And then paul looks back and he starts to realize that the cross was the was the judgment the judgment that accompanies the

[00:21:44] that accompanies

[00:21:45] The day of the lord

[00:21:48] occurred on the cross

[00:21:49] And so all of this happened like in a partial sense, you know, it's not there hasn't been a there's been the complete

[00:21:55] resurrection of the

[00:21:57] There you know, there's still final judgment left to come

[00:22:00] For those who projected christ

[00:22:02] But what paul starts to realize is that the christ in that

[00:22:07] That life the death the resurrection the ascension of jesus

[00:22:10] Constitutes a partial installment of the day of the lord

[00:22:13] and so in second chrithians chapter six

[00:22:17] When paul says

[00:22:19] In verse two in a favorable time i'll listen to you in a day of salvation

[00:22:23] I have helped you behold now is the favorable time behold now is the day of salvation. That's paul

[00:22:30] Pretty explicitly saying now is the day of the word

[00:22:33] It's happened and and so

[00:22:35] Then you know what that means is that the age to come which is the presence of heaven on earth

[00:22:42] Which comes as a necessary part of the day of the lord that has been set off as well heaven has come to earth

[00:22:48] I love to belinda carl alam a child in the 1980s

[00:22:51] Belinda carl alam you baby, you know what i've heard you baby

[00:22:55] Who heaven is a place on earth like belinda had some solid pauline eschatology?

[00:23:01] She knew her theology of heaven the possible, but yeah heaven is a place on earth and and so

[00:23:08] And so you know paul would talk about

[00:23:11] this reality

[00:23:13] Of the age to come

[00:23:15] With different different paradigms. You know sometimes you talk about as the kingdom of god

[00:23:19] Sometimes you talk about it as the new creation sometimes you talk about it as the light

[00:23:23] Sometimes you talk about as the age of the spirit

[00:23:26] And so these you know different paradigms that he uses

[00:23:30] They emphasize certain things

[00:23:33] You know the the age of the spirit emphasizes the presence of the holy spirit and

[00:23:38] The you know the love of god the father that come our adoption as sons and daughters

[00:23:44] You know that's emphasized in that particular paradigm that the you know

[00:23:48] Jesus is the new atom a new creation the newness of everything has emphasized

[00:23:52] In the new creation paradigm, but they're all essentially talking about the same reality

[00:23:57] And that is the reality that the the day of the lord has occurred in a partial sense

[00:24:01] And that the age to come the presence of heaven on earth is now upon us

[00:24:06] and so but what you know what is

[00:24:09] What what is kind of unique?

[00:24:12] Is that paul realizes that there's an overlap of the ages the present evil age

[00:24:18] You know that is set off by sin

[00:24:21] That is that's still in play and it will be until the second coming of christ, but

[00:24:26] The age to come is now we live in that

[00:24:29] And so at a big picture level that's kind of a

[00:24:33] two and a half three minute summary

[00:24:35] Of paul's theology of heaven

[00:24:38] But she

[00:24:40] It's not just something that's theoretical to paul

[00:24:44] paul talks about the individual implications of that and a big one

[00:24:50] Comes in in colossians 1 13 when he says he god the father has delivered us from the domain of darkness

[00:24:57] And transferred us to

[00:25:00] The kingdom of his beloved son

[00:25:03] And him we have redemption the forgiveness of sins

[00:25:06] So this transfer is essentially he's saying

[00:25:09] You used to be

[00:25:11] In this other realm you used to be in the kingdom of darkness

[00:25:14] But you've been transferred into a new realm

[00:25:16] And and you see that really hit him in philippines 3

[00:25:20] when paul says

[00:25:23] Our citizenship is in heaven

[00:25:26] And from it we await a savior the lord jesus christ will transform our lowly bodies to be like

[00:25:32] Glorious body by the power that enables him even subject all things to himself

[00:25:36] This verse right here it captures so much of the now not yet

[00:25:41] Of

[00:25:42] Of these heavenly realities our citizenship is in heaven like where where do we live now?

[00:25:47] Well, since we've been transferred the domain of away from the domain of arganis but into the the domain of of light into the kingdom of god

[00:25:56] Like we're our citizenship is in heaven. That's where we live

[00:26:00] But then he comes back and says from it we await a savior the lord jesus christ

[00:26:06] From it we wait the second coming. We await the resurrection of the body

[00:26:10] So there's that now and not yet tension of like yes, i'm in heaven and yes, i'm on earth. I still have flesh

[00:26:17] And and so i'm living i'm living in two worlds at the same time

[00:26:22] but

[00:26:23] It's yeah, I think one of the most stabilizing things i'll kind of say to myself

[00:26:27] on a given day

[00:26:29] Is where do you live?

[00:26:31] Where do you live?

[00:26:33] Like I live in the kingdom of god

[00:26:36] I live in the new creation of the new adam

[00:26:39] I live in the age of the spirit

[00:26:41] The perfect love of god the father with the indwelling of the holy spirit of god

[00:26:45] That's where I live my citizenship is in heaven

[00:26:49] And man, there's just a sense of security and stability

[00:26:53] that comes with being grounded

[00:26:56] in

[00:26:57] our location in the spiritual realms

[00:27:00] which is in

[00:27:01] the heavenly kingdom

[00:27:03] Yeah, and yet there's a sense in which like the fullness of the kingdom is a future reality that we look to

[00:27:08] I mean even in some of the ways that you've been talking about what we'll do

[00:27:13] When that day comes right when we experience that fully

[00:27:17] I think we've all observed in our christian life

[00:27:21] People or groups or theologies with an over realized eschatology

[00:27:26] meaning they emphasize so much

[00:27:29] you know

[00:27:30] Heavenly realities of our salvation here and now

[00:27:33] But they totally neglect

[00:27:36] The realities of the present evil age

[00:27:38] We we are still sinners. We're still gonna sound. We're still gonna suffer

[00:27:42] We're still gonna experience pain

[00:27:44] Um, you know, it's it we're still waiting for something

[00:27:48] And that's that's really dangerous a lot especially a lot of young christians have been very disenchanted

[00:27:53] by

[00:27:54] And a lot of desperate people as well. They've been

[00:27:57] overpromised

[00:27:59] Overpromised

[00:28:00] through

[00:28:01] over realized eschatology and and

[00:28:03] They're disenchanted and they might even lose their faith or be disappointed with the faith

[00:28:08] when

[00:28:09] Because they haven't been taught about the realities of the present evil age that you still have sinful flash of all in world

[00:28:14] at the same time, I think that

[00:28:17] There's an under realized eschatology

[00:28:20] In a lot of a lot of say, you know evangelical reform circles and those are the water to which I swim primarily

[00:28:27] Yeah, that is just so much focus on here and now

[00:28:32] and so little focus on

[00:28:36] You know the life the life to come

[00:28:38] and and one other thing I'll say in that too nick is

[00:28:43] I'm saying a lot of lay people most lay people

[00:28:46] When they think about heaven it it is always what is life going to be like?

[00:28:51] In glory

[00:28:52] What is my dog going to be there?

[00:28:54] Are we going to eat liby barbeque?

[00:28:57] And I'm not gonna play golf

[00:28:59] You know just these different kind of questions about what is life going to be like here

[00:29:02] When you read paul's letters and you look at his theology of heaven

[00:29:06] And honestly, this isn't just true paul. You can see this is the book book of revelation as well

[00:29:11] And this is true in peter's letters

[00:29:13] the focus of

[00:29:16] Theology of heaven and those books is the implications for here and now

[00:29:20] How does this impact me now?

[00:29:23] And yeah, and especially in a revelation. We're talking about these people who are

[00:29:28] suffering and dying and being discriminated against and persecuted

[00:29:32] And he says hey, let's let's talk about heaven so that you can have perseverance and steadfastness in this life

[00:29:38] And so that's really really good

[00:29:41] I was gonna ask you a follow-up question that but sorry I keep interrupting your thought

[00:29:45] No, not at all not at all. I'm just gonna say that

[00:29:48] Yeah, I mean I think that one of the goals I have in this book

[00:29:53] is

[00:29:55] For people not to be thinking about heaven along trivial lines

[00:30:00] Not to just be thinking about what's it going to be like

[00:30:03] But knowing what it is and and and thinking about what does it mean for me here and now because

[00:30:09] You know the second half of the book. It's called the fruit of heaven word

[00:30:14] And and that's like fruit that I've seen in my own life

[00:30:16] But you really see in the in the apostle Paul's writings of how it is that

[00:30:22] A heavenly mindedness and a heaven word life

[00:30:26] How it impacts you here and now and like one of those is contentment

[00:30:30] You know, I'll just say that's probably one of the biggest fruits. I've seen in my own life

[00:30:34] Is I'm just the heavenly mind has given me greater contentment

[00:30:39] I have realistic expectations for what this life is meant to be

[00:30:43] I

[00:30:44] Have a greater appreciation for the joys and the blessings of my own salvation here and now

[00:30:50] A second one is a hope in suffering

[00:30:55] That man, that's you know, you see

[00:30:57] There's any talk about suffering and Paul or in Peter

[00:31:01] They're always gonna they're always going to connect something to the second coming of christ

[00:31:06] Or to heaven. They're always connecting those two things

[00:31:09] And that is the backbone of perseverance

[00:31:12] Is the perseverance and suffering as a believer

[00:31:16] This is the knowledge that this is temporary

[00:31:19] This is temporary. You know, if we were if you're running a marathon the finish line

[00:31:24] Keeps you going

[00:31:26] But if you if there's no end to that race you're just gonna quit

[00:31:31] There's no defined end. We haven't defined

[00:31:33] Another is morality and ethics

[00:31:35] you know, I mean

[00:31:37] I think that

[00:31:39] We don't think of heaven in terms of pleasure

[00:31:41] We don't think of what a pleasurable experience that you have in new earth will be

[00:31:45] What a pleasurable experience the intermediate state will be when we're seeing christ-based face and so

[00:31:50] There is this hedonistic

[00:31:53] Compulsion and urgency

[00:31:56] that a lot of people live with

[00:31:58] To to squeeze as much pleasure out of this life as possible

[00:32:02] And that's really spills over and you know into sexual ethics as well

[00:32:06] The idea of being restrained

[00:32:08] The idea of

[00:32:10] Abstinence and celibacy and things like that. I mean it's unheard of

[00:32:14] If you don't realize that there is a much greater pleasure in christ, but there's a much greater pleasure

[00:32:20] for eternity in heaven

[00:32:22] And there there's no sex in heaven. There's no sex in heaven. There's no sex in new heaven new earth

[00:32:27] Okay, so that that that kind of puts sex in its proper place

[00:32:30] But it's not the highest good as the secular world would tell us

[00:32:34] That there's fruit in terms of having no fear and death or giving us I don't say no fear and death but greater comfort with death

[00:32:40] And then finally

[00:32:42] another fruit is it just

[00:32:45] makes us more focused

[00:32:47] on

[00:32:48] missions and evangelism and serving the lord

[00:32:51] I think one of the biggest differences in my life

[00:32:54] It has come through my son's death and this really

[00:32:58] Wonderful and generous work the lord has done in my life to give me a heaven word sense

[00:33:04] I just live with a

[00:33:08] Appropriate priority on the judgment seat of christ

[00:33:13] and wanting to offer my life as

[00:33:17] You know as a precious offering to the lord

[00:33:21] And that doesn't mean that you know

[00:33:24] It's just very clear in scripture that you see us particularly Ecclesiastes is a good thing for us to enjoy the blessings of this life

[00:33:30] So don't hear me as is saying that

[00:33:33] you know, I've gone

[00:33:36] radically intense and at the same time like

[00:33:40] The judgment seat of christ and thinking about

[00:33:43] that you know the reward

[00:33:45] It really helps us to

[00:33:48] Think about what am I what is really meaningful?

[00:33:51] What what where am I really investing my time?

[00:33:54] Where am I investing my energy?

[00:33:56] as it pertains

[00:33:58] To to warning to live a worshipful life to offer to god of judgment seat of christ

[00:34:04] yeah

[00:34:05] Let me ask you this like so, you know, there's this kind of old trope that says if you're too heavenly minded

[00:34:10] You won't be any earthly good

[00:34:13] So

[00:34:14] How do we avoid that misconception that being heavenly minded means that we don't think that the

[00:34:20] Perhaps mundane details of our earthly lives no longer matter

[00:34:25] Yeah, that's a really good question. It's a huge misconception huge misconception and c.s. Lewis basically addressed that quote itself

[00:34:34] Instead, you know, basically what you see in church history is the most

[00:34:37] productive and prolific people in church history are the ones who had the most the greatest sense of heavenly mindedness

[00:34:44] And you know, sure, I think that there is a danger that

[00:34:46] people can become heavily minded in a sense of just escapism

[00:34:51] But I mean, let's look at paul himself

[00:34:54] I mean, has there ever been a more

[00:34:56] committed

[00:34:57] dutiful productive christian

[00:35:00] than the apostle paul

[00:35:02] and and yet he was

[00:35:05] just

[00:35:06] Dripping with heaven in the way he thought and he can go to flippians one

[00:35:12] where paul says

[00:35:14] you know

[00:35:15] I might die

[00:35:16] that's up in the air

[00:35:18] and

[00:35:19] It'd be my preference to go and be with jesus

[00:35:23] But if I stay here, why?

[00:35:26] What's the term fruitful labor?

[00:35:28] fruitful labor

[00:35:29] And so I can remember it was about a month after my son died

[00:35:34] and

[00:35:35] I was so unhappy. I was just so so so miserable and I had one of those

[00:35:41] Really low days that was

[00:35:43] December it was rainy. It was wet. It was nasty. I was sad

[00:35:49] We just celebrated christmas. My son had been dead for six weeks

[00:35:54] I was miserable. It was as low as it was as low as you could get

[00:35:58] And I can remember sitting there on my bed that night should be like, I want to die

[00:36:02] I don't want to be here. I wasn't like suicidal

[00:36:05] But I did not want to be here

[00:36:08] and it's like as if I had this kind of spiritual conversation with the lord

[00:36:13] Where's how you said really?

[00:36:15] Like I mean, I could you can I could take you right now really?

[00:36:18] And it's like the lord kind of got through to me

[00:36:21] And I had this sense of like if I were to die right now, what what is it that's tethering me to this to this world?

[00:36:28] And it was like there are people on there who don't know christ that I want to share with

[00:36:32] I have a daughter

[00:36:33] Who's a one-year-old?

[00:36:35] And I want to see her come to know jesus

[00:36:37] You know, there's there's ministry all the things that came to my mind

[00:36:41] That tethered me to this world

[00:36:43] All of it when it all came down had to do with

[00:36:47] evangelism

[00:36:48] and mission

[00:36:50] and service

[00:36:51] And I think what you find is the more heavenly minded we become

[00:36:57] The more focused we are

[00:37:00] on kingdom service

[00:37:02] That's really good another question for you

[00:37:04] You know in talking before we started recording you had said this that

[00:37:08] Lack of heavenly mindedness is at the root of many problems in the church today. Could you expound on that idea a little bit?

[00:37:16] Yeah, I mean I think that I think that the the biggest

[00:37:20] Theological problem in the spiritual lives of people

[00:37:23] Is a lack of heavenly mindedness

[00:37:26] And you know, I think we can see that a number a number of ways, you know one. I think that there's

[00:37:31] You know a reticence to really sacrifice for christ

[00:37:35] I think a lot of believers just would kind of like to have their cake and eat it too

[00:37:39] and you know kind of be a be a christian and

[00:37:43] You know enjoy some of the benefits of being a christ, but not to the extent where they're gonna have to suffer

[00:37:48] They're gonna have to sacrifice

[00:37:50] I think that

[00:37:51] I'm looking at this already but a lot of the the issues we see around sexuality and

[00:37:57] I'm not speaking

[00:37:58] exclusively about homosexuality, but also just

[00:38:02] believers

[00:38:03] Not abstaining from sex, you know outside of marriage

[00:38:06] I think that there's a hedonism that drives a lot of those issues

[00:38:12] And that is that that is a product of epichurianism

[00:38:16] Yes, the thought that there's not an app there. There's not a an active knowledge of belief and confidence

[00:38:22] in

[00:38:23] An ultimately pleasurable eternal experience in heaven

[00:38:27] And so there's this belief that we must get as much pleasure now

[00:38:33] Even if it's simple

[00:38:34] And you know, I think too lack of generosity

[00:38:38] You don't you don't see, you know amongst I would say that the average everyday christian. There's not a ton of sacrificial giving

[00:38:44] there's a

[00:38:46] a propensity to

[00:38:48] You know want to store up

[00:38:50] Store up financial riches in this life and it's certainly prudent prudent budgeting and saving and stuff like that is a good thing

[00:38:56] and

[00:38:58] I think that Irene Alcorn speaks to this really well

[00:39:01] Just talking about you know when we really think about all that we're gonna adhere it in heaven and in the minute you have on the earth

[00:39:07] It helps us to you know loosen our grip on some of our our material possessions and to be more generous with them

[00:39:14] So I yeah, I really I really think that

[00:39:18] the kind of

[00:39:20] epicurean

[00:39:22] nature

[00:39:23] Of the secular world

[00:39:25] in a lot of ways creeps over

[00:39:27] into

[00:39:28] The mindset of modern christians

[00:39:31] such that

[00:39:33] we live as if

[00:39:35] We live trusting in the future as little as possible like not really actually actively believing

[00:39:40] that

[00:39:41] You know, hey, we're gonna live here for who knows how long 60 70 80 90 100 years

[00:39:45] You're gonna live in the new heaven new earth for trillions and trillions and trillions of years

[00:39:49] That's that is the that is the greater

[00:39:52] Balance of our existence

[00:39:54] Yeah, I think I think to the sink to the detriment

[00:39:57] Of this this lack of heavenly modest is to the detriment of modern christians

[00:40:02] So if people want to grow in being heavenly minded, I mean obviously your book is a good overview of of that eschatological hope

[00:40:11] Any other advice you would give?

[00:40:14] Yeah, I think that

[00:40:15] first thing I would say

[00:40:18] is

[00:40:19] It's helpful to just know the facts about heaven

[00:40:24] I think there an evidence of a lack of knowledge of

[00:40:30] Eschatological realities in the church is how drawn people are

[00:40:34] to a lot of these books about mere death experiences

[00:40:38] And is a massive genre

[00:40:40] in the I don't know. I guess you've caught the christian book world

[00:40:45] But people are so curious about to hear what these people have had new death experiences with their depiction of heaven is

[00:40:51] it's like, hey guys, like

[00:40:53] We don't need to rely on the subjective accounts

[00:40:57] Of people we have God's word telling us everything we need to know and that's the truth about heaven

[00:41:04] And so I think that one just becoming you know more educated about heaven through reading scripture and studying scripture

[00:41:10] And that's the first thing I try to do in the book is just do a basic overview

[00:41:14] of the facts of heaven. So I think that that's that's one thing

[00:41:18] um, I think that a second thing too is

[00:41:22] once you have some of those facts

[00:41:25] and knowledge about the realities of heaven

[00:41:28] I think it is okay for us to have a heavenly imagination

[00:41:32] You know, think about you know, what will it be like to see Jesus?

[00:41:36] What will it be like to touch him? What what will it be like to?

[00:41:42] Walk around and travel throughout the new heaven and the new earth

[00:41:47] you know to swim and streams and creeks and

[00:41:51] You know to walk through forest and what will it be like to be with loved ones who have died in Christ?

[00:41:56] What will it be like to have a cup of coffee with Martin Luther?

[00:42:00] To maybe you know, maybe hang out with bono or johnny cash like

[00:42:05] I think that you know, yes, we want to keep

[00:42:09] Our belief in heaven grounded in scripture and we can also use that

[00:42:14] those realities

[00:42:16] To cultivate a heavenly imagination that helps make it more real for us

[00:42:21] and I'll tell you one of the one of the parts of

[00:42:25] One of the things I did with this book is I read about heavenly mindedness throughout church history and I looked particularly in

[00:42:31] the writings of early church fathers

[00:42:33] that rome catholic mysticism

[00:42:36] puritan poetry

[00:42:38] Anglican poetry and I looked at I read

[00:42:42] Dozens and dozens and dozens of spirituals from the american slave experience

[00:42:47] And that is where I would say in church history some of the

[00:42:51] richest example and modeling

[00:42:54] of

[00:42:55] faithful heavenly mindedness is demonstrated

[00:42:58] Because if you were if you were a slave you had literally had no hope in this life

[00:43:04] You know, I mean you're you were

[00:43:06] Treated in an abusive way. You're going to work until you died

[00:43:09] You're going to be dehumanized

[00:43:11] You're going to be separated from your family

[00:43:13] Like that that's the normal experience of a slave. There was no hope in this life

[00:43:18] And so what you see in the spirituals that they sing about heaven

[00:43:23] But there and Howard Thurman is the one who really points this out

[00:43:27] And and the in the short text that negro spiritual speaks of the mortality

[00:43:32] He talks about how personal

[00:43:35] The depiction of heaven

[00:43:38] Is in the spirituals. It's it's not just going to be I'm gonna there's got to be a crown. It's going to be my crown

[00:43:44] It's not just that I'm going to have a home in heaven. Like it's going to be it's not there's going to be a home

[00:43:48] It's going to be my home

[00:43:50] And so there was this

[00:43:52] personalizing

[00:43:54] Of the future heavenly experience

[00:43:57] That's sustained that sustained these people who lived through such horrible oppression

[00:44:03] And so I think that you know reading

[00:44:06] Reading some different accounts of heavenly mindedness and Jeremiah Burroughs his his book on heavenly mindedness and earthly mindedness

[00:44:15] Teresa de Abba dea via her her spiritual writing on it

[00:44:20] I mean, she's got some some things. I think we have to disagree with theologically but

[00:44:24] It's a wonderful portrait of

[00:44:26] Of a heavenly spiritual journey

[00:44:30] So I think those are some things that I would recommend to people and then ultimately you just ask

[00:44:34] I tell you I make this like I said the distinction between heavenly mindedness and heavenward

[00:44:39] Heavenly mindedness being a you know a discipline where we think about heaven

[00:44:42] And heavenward being it just becomes the air you breathe. That's something that the Holy Spirit has to do in your heart

[00:44:47] That's not something that you can manufacture

[00:44:50] And so that's where we you know ask Jesus to

[00:44:53] Transform our heart and transform our life such that

[00:44:57] We live as a citizen of heaven. We live as one who's been transferred into the kingdom

[00:45:01] You know, we live as one who's on this side of the day of the war

[00:45:06] And so I think some of those things

[00:45:08] We can just ask the war to bless us with and

[00:45:12] I guess are the kind of prayers the Lord likes to answer

[00:45:14] Yeah

[00:45:16] That's great. So Cameron, where can people

[00:45:18] Keep up with you online? You mentioned rooted. Where do people find that and anything else that you do that people

[00:45:24] Can connect with

[00:45:25] Yeah, thanks for asking

[00:45:26] So I do have a podcast called the rooted parent podcast

[00:45:30] Where we talk about the intersection of the gospel scripture and parenting

[00:45:33] And that that can be you know found on wherever you listen to podcasts

[00:45:37] But also at the rooted pot rooted website rooted ministry

[00:45:41] dot com

[00:45:43] And then yeah in this book heavenward how eternity can change your life on earth and say

[00:45:47] A crossway product

[00:45:48] And you know, if you want us to buy it on amazon and write a review

[00:45:52] Certainly appreciate that

[00:45:54] What cool Cameron, thanks so much for sharing your story and about the book. It's been really good

[00:46:00] Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I've really it's been life giving for me to talk about

[00:46:06] Thanks for listening to this episode of theology for the people

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[00:46:15] In the next episode, I will be speaking with professor John Curie from westminster theological seminary in philadelphia

[00:46:22] About the topic of leadership and how things like strategy and structure

[00:46:27] Fit together with being led by the holy spirit and teaching the word of god

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