Faith Under Pressure: How Wrestling Through Your Doubts Can Lead to Deeper Faith - with Dr. Philip Ryken

[00:00:04] Have you ever wrestled with doubts about your faith? If so, then you're in good company. The Bible contains several stories of men and women of faith who also had seasons in which they struggled with doubts. My guest on this episode is Dr. Philip Ryken. Dr. Ryken is the president of Wheaton College in Wheaton, Illinois. He has a doctorate in philosophy from Oxford University, and he is the author of over 50 books. His latest book is titled, I Have My Doubts, How God Can Use Your Uncertainty to Reawake Your Doubts.

[00:00:35] In our discussion, Dr. Ryken shares advice that he would give to those currently struggling with doubts with the goal of also helping people to be equipped to help others in their lives to come to greater confidence in Jesus and a more vibrant faith. I hope you'll enjoy this episode. I'll be back at the end with some closing words.

[00:00:56] Well, Philip Ryken, thank you for being a guest again on Theology for the People.

[00:01:00] Nick, thank you for asking me back, which is awesome. And also, I love the title of this podcast. I mean, give the people what they want, or at least give them what they need, and what they really need is theology.

[00:01:15] That's right. Yeah, the previous episode you were on, we talked about the role of beauty in theology, and that has been my most downloaded, most popular episode.

[00:01:23] In fact, after I spoke with you, I ended up using a lot of the things that we talked about. They inspired some sermons that I did here at my church.

[00:01:31] Well, I really hope that for any conversation like this I do, or any of the writing I do, that people will find something they can use.

[00:01:40] And whether it's something interesting you want to share in a dinner conversation, or something that makes you a more effective Sunday school teacher, something you can bring to a class, and best of all, something that helps a preacher in the pulpit.

[00:01:53] That's why we do what we do, and I'm grateful for your podcast that helps people with that too.

[00:01:58] Awesome. Well, Dr. Reich, maybe give our folks a little bit about yourself and your background and your journey up to this point.

[00:02:06] Sure. That seems like the least interesting thing we can talk about, Nick, but I serve as the president of Wheaton College. I'm in my 15th year here. This is the community where I grew up. In fact, my father taught English literature at Wheaton for 52 years.

[00:02:19] So a lot of my life has been in and around a Christ-centered higher education environment. Wheaton's also where I went to school and studied English and philosophy.

[00:02:30] And then I went on to seminary at Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia, completed a doctor of philosophy degree in historical theology at the University of Oxford, and then was in pastoral ministry in a local church context for 15 years before coming to Wheaton College in 2010.

[00:02:49] And we've got five kids, all of whom either completed a degree at Wheaton or are going to complete a degree at Wheaton. I've got a software here right now. So that's a little bit about us.

[00:03:01] Awesome. Yeah, historical theology is definitely like my primary interest and focus. So I'm really interested to hear that that was your focus as well.

[00:03:10] Well, I love it because if you're doing theology, you're interacting with the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, but you're also doing it in a historical context.

[00:03:21] So understanding what people have thought theologically and biblically in the past in the context of their story, what God was doing at the church in different seasons of history all over the world.

[00:03:31] To me, those are all just such interesting topics. And then you bring them together and you have something useful for understanding what God is calling us to do in our time, in our place.

[00:03:42] So it's a great topic, Gary, I think. I agree.

[00:03:47] Excellent. So your latest book is called I Have My Doubts. It's focusing on 10 specific areas regarding doubt.

[00:03:55] And it tells, I like how you did it, it tells 10 stories about doubt that also proved to be stories of credible faith.

[00:04:02] I was curious, what inspired you to write this book? And does it have any reflection on your own journey of faith?

[00:04:09] Yeah, a bit it does. So there's something pretty specific that prompted the book.

[00:04:14] A lot of the writing I do these days comes out of my teaching and preaching at Wheaton College.

[00:04:19] I speak once a month in chapel, in addition to other teaching and preaching that I'm doing.

[00:04:25] I've been thinking about a series on doubt for a while. It's a big topic for young people.

[00:04:30] I think the three main conversations that our students have with their mentors are very common to people in the sort of 18 to 22 age group and have been for a long time.

[00:04:43] I think if you look at the history of the church, these are questions that people are asking in other areas as well.

[00:04:48] What should I do with my life? In other words, what's my calling? That's a big question.

[00:04:54] How do I navigate relationships, especially romantic relationships? That's something young people are always talking about.

[00:05:00] And I have these questions about God and perhaps if I'm a follower of Christ about the Christian life.

[00:05:09] And is there somebody that can answer all the questions I have? Those are the three big areas.

[00:05:14] And one thing I say about our campus is I want Wheaton College to be a good place to doubt.

[00:05:20] A place where if you've got a question, you feel like you can ask it and you feel like there are people that can help guide you in the answers and really think along with you and walk with you through the process.

[00:05:31] All of us have doubts. Doubts about God. Doubts about what God is calling us to do. Doubts about specific things in our relationship with God.

[00:05:41] We all have doubts. So when I was, and I'll circle back to another aspect of my answer to your question, but just to illustrate the point that we all have doubts.

[00:05:50] When I started thinking about, okay, who in the Bible can help me understand what it's like to doubt and come to a stronger place of faith?

[00:05:59] I mean, there are so many people to choose from. I chose 10 for this book.

[00:06:03] I could pretty readily add 10 more to that list because I think most of the people that walk with God have their questions about God, the questions they ask to God.

[00:06:12] There are lots of those in the Bible, lots of questions people put to God.

[00:06:16] So this is just a normal part of the Christian life. And we want students on our campus to be able to wrestle with their doubts and come to a place of stronger conviction and trust in the God of the Bible and in his son, Jesus Christ.

[00:06:30] Here's another thing, though. It's not just the doubts that we have. It's the doubts that we see other people have and how God is calling us to encourage and help them in their doubts.

[00:06:42] And definitely you and me and all the pastors that are listening to us, we often talk to people that have spiritual doubts.

[00:06:51] But I'm guessing a lot of your listeners that are lay people have that as well.

[00:06:54] They've got their own doubts, but they also have somebody in their family, somebody in a class, somebody in a small group that has questions maybe you don't know how to answer.

[00:07:02] So we all need help, not just with our own doubts, but how do we help other people that are doubting?

[00:07:08] And one of the things I tried to do all the way through the book is not just answer a question for you if you have a doubt, but for you if you're the kind of person who says,

[00:07:17] now I have this friend and here's, you know, my friend asked me this question.

[00:07:21] I wasn't sure what to do. I wanted to give that kind of help as well.

[00:07:25] So that was a strong motivator for me in the chapel talks and a strong motivator for me in the book.

[00:07:32] Were there any of the doubts mentioned in your book that you personally resonated with the most or that you particularly enjoyed writing about?

[00:07:38] Yeah, great question. I mean, pretty much everything I've ever written about, I've enjoyed writing about.

[00:07:46] And I love getting into a topic, getting into a new passage of the Bible.

[00:07:50] I mean, you know what it's like as a preacher. What's your favorite Bible passage?

[00:07:55] Well, the one I'm working on right now is in one sense always my favorite.

[00:08:01] So it's a little bit like your children. I mean, they're, you know, they're all special in their own way.

[00:08:06] I think that's true of Bible passages and the people we meet in the Bible.

[00:08:11] I'll just mention, I'm just looking at the table of contents here.

[00:08:16] I'll just mention one that I think has been, I don't know if it's been more challenging for me.

[00:08:22] It's been something I've thought a lot more about in recent years.

[00:08:26] And that is doubting God's ability to heal.

[00:08:30] So the story in the Bible that I use is the father in the crowd that, you know, has a son who's in need of healing.

[00:08:38] And it's a very desperate situation.

[00:08:40] It seems to have physical, but also psychological.

[00:08:44] I mean, it's a really a comprehensive healing that this father's son needs.

[00:08:48] It's physiological, but it's also spiritual.

[00:08:51] And this is the father who so famously says, Lord, I do believe, but you got to help me with my unbelief.

[00:09:00] So he falls into a category talk a lot about in the book.

[00:09:05] And that is a doubter believer.

[00:09:06] I think at some level, we are all doubter believers.

[00:09:10] We're believers maybe, but we're also doubter believers.

[00:09:13] But I have come to just, and I think all of us have areas of healing, broken relationships,

[00:09:22] things that have really wounded us in a fallen world, ways that we are sinned against.

[00:09:28] And I think the longer we live in a fallen world, the more of those scars that we bear.

[00:09:33] And I've just done a lot of thinking about areas of healing that I would like to see in my own life.

[00:09:40] And on the one hand, believing in the power of God to heal, but also believing him enough

[00:09:46] to trust him that even if all that healing doesn't happen right away, he's got a plan for that healing.

[00:09:50] So for me, I don't know if that's been the hardest area, but it's been an area I've thought more about,

[00:09:55] you know, particularly in recent years.

[00:09:57] But my hope is that a lot of the topics I touch on in the book are going to be very relatable

[00:10:04] because we have the same doubts ourselves, or we know people that have them.

[00:10:08] And we know that these are real doubts that need to be addressed.

[00:10:12] Well, in your first chapter, I found one thing you said pretty compelling.

[00:10:16] What you said is that if we trace our doubts back far enough,

[00:10:20] we discover that in one way or another, they all begin with our skepticism about the scriptures.

[00:10:26] Could you explain a little bit why you say that and how you came to that conclusion?

[00:10:31] The reason I say that is because the Bible tells us that God is everything that we could ever need

[00:10:38] or want in a deity.

[00:10:41] The Bible has all of these promises about what God has done for us and will do for us,

[00:10:47] all of these promises that will find their ultimate fulfillment in Jesus Christ.

[00:10:52] So if we believed all of those promises, then we wouldn't have any doubts

[00:10:58] because everything is there that we need.

[00:11:01] The protection, the provision, the forgiveness, the mercy, the healing, the reconciliation,

[00:11:06] like it's all there in the promises of the Bible.

[00:11:09] So if we have our doubts at one level or another, I could equally well say,

[00:11:16] in one way or another, we can trace all of our doubts back to our doubts about God

[00:11:19] and about his character and about his attributes, but all of those things are addressed in his word.

[00:11:24] So it's one way of thinking about the ultimate source of our doubts.

[00:11:28] God has said a lot of things to us.

[00:11:30] And if we take God at his word, then we will find we don't have the same struggles with doubt.

[00:11:36] So I think there's something foundational about believing that what God has said is true.

[00:11:43] And the more we really get a grip on that, the more it helps us in every area of life.

[00:11:48] But it certainly helps us a lot in the life of faith, in the journey of faith, and our struggles with doubt.

[00:11:55] Yeah.

[00:11:55] In that chapter, you give several steps about ways that we can build our confidence in the Bible.

[00:12:03] And there's one of them that I found particularly interesting.

[00:12:06] You said that first, we can confess that we are not neutral observers,

[00:12:10] but that we are predisposed not to believe what God says.

[00:12:14] Can you tell me why you think that that helps?

[00:12:16] Yeah. So, I mean, this really gets us into a theology topic,

[00:12:19] which I know is part of our purpose for this podcast.

[00:12:22] And one of the things I love about theology is just its power to explain what we experience in the world.

[00:12:30] So thinking about God helps us know ourselves, helps us understand our experience in the world.

[00:12:39] And we have so many opportunities when we encounter the Word of God to grow in our faith, grow in our trust.

[00:12:46] And, you know, I do mention a number of things that we should think about when we're encountering God's Word.

[00:12:53] But I think we have to wrestle with this fact, maybe even as we come to God's Word.

[00:12:57] And that is that our falling to sin as the human race makes us guilty before God,

[00:13:06] but it also has real impacts and effects and results.

[00:13:11] And I think one of the reasons I want to have a pretty good understanding of a theology of sin

[00:13:17] is because it has amazing explanatory power.

[00:13:21] Like, why is it so hard for people to get along?

[00:13:23] Well, let me talk to you about the effects of sin on human relationships.

[00:13:27] Why is it hard to be married?

[00:13:28] Why is it hard to have a good relationship with your parents or with your children?

[00:13:32] Why are so many things broken in society, including government?

[00:13:38] Like, the doctrine of sin explains all of these things.

[00:13:41] And it also explains some of our challenges in understanding the Word of God.

[00:13:45] It actually doesn't explain all of them because some of our struggles to understand God's Word

[00:13:49] are just the limits of our knowledge, which has nothing to do with our fall into sin.

[00:13:53] It just has to do with being a finite human being.

[00:13:55] There are lots of things that we don't understand.

[00:13:58] But we are also drawn, because of our sinful nature, to things that oppose God.

[00:14:06] Like, we're drawn to things that give us more pleasure, even if they're not good for us.

[00:14:10] There are a lot of things that we are drawn to.

[00:14:13] So we don't have this kind of perfect, pristine place to look at God's Word.

[00:14:19] We bring our own self-interest to our reading of God's Word.

[00:14:23] There are parts of the Bible we don't like as well as other parts, not because they're not

[00:14:28] good in themselves.

[00:14:29] It's just because they cut against our fallen human nature.

[00:14:31] So I just think it's a good perspective to have.

[00:14:35] Our fall into sin affects our minds and not just our sort of ethics.

[00:14:42] And that's what I'm trying to get at in making that point in the book.

[00:14:46] Great.

[00:14:47] What advice would you give to someone who currently feels overwhelmed by their doubts

[00:14:53] or unsure if they can continue in their faith?

[00:14:56] Yeah, that's a great question.

[00:14:58] So, I mean, so many things.

[00:15:00] First of all, I think it's really important for us to be in spiritual conversation with

[00:15:04] others and ideally under the spiritual care of a pastor or somebody else that can really

[00:15:10] be trusted to care for us and look out for us.

[00:15:13] By the way, in my pastoral experience, sometimes people feel overwhelmed by doubts and it's

[00:15:23] not simply a spiritual issue.

[00:15:27] It definitely is not merely an intellectual issue.

[00:15:31] There are also some things happening physiologically in our response to stress or trauma.

[00:15:40] And so I just have experienced sometimes in pastoral care, maybe this is a word of wisdom for people

[00:15:47] that are pastors.

[00:15:48] Like if you start helping somebody with spiritual doubts and you search the scriptures and they

[00:15:53] just keep coming back to the same thing over and over again and you feel like you're really

[00:15:58] not getting anywhere.

[00:15:59] I think one good question to ask is, are you under medical care?

[00:16:03] And have you been under medical care for just runaway thoughts and thoughts you can't control?

[00:16:09] Sometimes there's a physiological aspect to this struggle with doubt.

[00:16:13] I just want to acknowledge that that kind of physical care, sometimes even medical care,

[00:16:18] can be a part of what people need.

[00:16:21] Another just piece of practical advice is meditate as much as possible on the promises of God.

[00:16:29] Also recognize that doubt is normal.

[00:16:32] So you don't need to freak out if you're having a lot of doubts, like you're a bad person or a bad

[00:16:36] Christian.

[00:16:37] No, like we all do have doubts.

[00:16:39] I also encourage people to be patient with the process.

[00:16:43] I think as you go on in the Christian life, you realize, oh, you know, there are doubts that I used

[00:16:47] to have that are now a bit more resolved than they used to be.

[00:16:51] And so I'm going to just trust God that he can help me with this doubt.

[00:16:54] He doesn't have to give me an answer today or even tomorrow.

[00:16:57] I'm willing to wait for it.

[00:16:58] So another, I think, just practical thing is to be patient with the process of doubt and faith.

[00:17:05] One of my favorite passages about doubt is one that I think I overlooked for years.

[00:17:10] It's in Matthew chapter 28, as Jesus is after his resurrection meeting with his disciples in

[00:17:16] Galilee.

[00:17:16] And it says that when they saw him, verse 17, it says they worshiped him, but some doubted.

[00:17:23] And that tells me a couple of things.

[00:17:25] First of all, it tells me like that as they were worshiping, they still, some still doubted, but they

[00:17:32] still worshiped.

[00:17:33] And I think that's encouraging as well, that you can still struggle with doubts and choose to worship

[00:17:41] Jesus and choose to follow him and follow his instructions as well.

[00:17:45] So I think that that's encouraging to me, at least that something I would tell somebody who's

[00:17:52] struggling with doubts is that, you know, having these doubts doesn't preclude you from worshiping

[00:17:56] Jesus.

[00:17:56] And perhaps one of the best things you can do in this time is to worship him.

[00:18:01] Yeah.

[00:18:01] And no, I agree with that so much.

[00:18:04] It really is an amazing verse.

[00:18:07] It's amazing for the reason you just said, which is it puts together worship and doubt

[00:18:13] into the same verse.

[00:18:15] Also, the context is really amazing because these are disciples who had met personally

[00:18:20] the risen Lord Jesus Christ.

[00:18:22] And a lot of times we kind of say, well, you know, it was easier for them because they were

[00:18:26] right there.

[00:18:26] And if only I could experience what they experienced and I wouldn't have any doubts.

[00:18:30] No, they were with Christ at the moment.

[00:18:34] Also, they had witnessed not only the pre-resurrection miracles of Jesus Christ, but they had also

[00:18:40] witnessed some post-resurrection miracles of Jesus Christ.

[00:18:43] Like they had everything going for them, but still some of them were struggling with those

[00:18:50] doubts.

[00:18:50] Here's another amazing thing about that verse is what follows it because Jesus doesn't say,

[00:18:56] okay, I can see that some of you are kind of doubtful.

[00:18:59] And I mean, a lot of things Jesus could have done in that moment.

[00:19:03] After everything I've showed you, if you're still doubtful, like I've got to find some

[00:19:07] different disciples, like you're just not going to cut it.

[00:19:10] Like, you know, that would be an understandable response.

[00:19:14] Actually, what Jesus goes on immediately to do is to say, you doubter believers right here

[00:19:20] who are worshiping even though you doubt, I am going to give you the most important instructions

[00:19:28] that will ever be given to anyone ever again in the entire history of the world.

[00:19:34] And that is to go into the world and make disciples and preach the gospel.

[00:19:40] And as unpromising as they may have seemed as future church leaders in that moment when

[00:19:48] they are doubt worshiping, Jesus also gives them a disciple making commissions.

[00:19:54] I just think there's so much encouragement there for anybody that's struggling.

[00:19:59] And I think this is a really good place if you're trying to help somebody who's having

[00:20:04] their doubts.

[00:20:04] This is a really good place to turn with them.

[00:20:07] You can still worship.

[00:20:09] You can still serve.

[00:20:10] Isn't through with you.

[00:20:11] All of those messages are just so powerfully illustrated in these final verses of the

[00:20:16] gospel of Matthew.

[00:20:18] Hmm.

[00:20:19] I'm curious about your thoughts.

[00:20:20] I have a bit of a theory that I've been trying to process.

[00:20:23] And so I'm kind of processing it out loud right now.

[00:20:26] My theory kind of the short version is this.

[00:20:29] I think that there are that every person who walks with the Lord at some point, they will

[00:20:35] tend to experience a crisis of faith.

[00:20:38] But that I feel like it's almost like when you're going from one stage of perhaps discipleship

[00:20:43] or even belief or faith to the next one.

[00:20:46] So my personal story became a Christian as a teenager in high school through a conversation

[00:20:52] with a friend, started going to church, started serving, started learning.

[00:20:56] I was reading books and basically just receiving and believing what I was told.

[00:21:01] I then became a missionary.

[00:21:03] I even was ordained as a pastor.

[00:21:05] And as I was preaching sermons Sundays and Wednesdays, I began to have these nagging doubts

[00:21:11] about whether the things that I was preaching to other people were things that I had actually

[00:21:17] investigated.

[00:21:17] How did I actually know these things were true?

[00:21:19] Was it I just take these books at face value?

[00:21:22] What if the books were wrong?

[00:21:23] What if this whole system that I was involved in now was completely wrong?

[00:21:28] And so that was a crisis of faith that I went through.

[00:21:32] And I spent some time seeking the Lord about it.

[00:21:35] It ended up leading me on a journey of going to seminary and investigating these things at

[00:21:40] that university level.

[00:21:42] But I've noticed this pattern with other people.

[00:21:45] I'm wondering if you resonate with this at all.

[00:21:47] Yeah, no.

[00:21:48] So thanks for sharing part of your story, Nick, and walking us through that.

[00:21:52] And I have a few different reactions.

[00:21:54] I mean, I think a bit of the point you're making is reflected in the subtitle of this book, which

[00:21:59] is how God can use your uncertainty to reawaken your faith.

[00:22:03] So it's just a recognition that these periods of doubt and struggle, they can lead to perhaps

[00:22:09] a more faith-filled life in Christ and also perhaps a more fruitful ministry.

[00:22:17] Because you've worked through some things that now God can use.

[00:22:20] Now, why would it be that sometimes a season of working through doubts is a precursor to

[00:22:27] a new phase of life, new season of ministry, something new that God is doing in your life?

[00:22:33] I think one reason for that is because doubts can also be temptations.

[00:22:37] And one of the ways that Satan really wants to tempt us is to have doubts in the first place

[00:22:42] and then to make the wrong use of those doubts.

[00:22:45] And, you know, that's what Satan did with Eve.

[00:22:48] And it's a strategy that's been working really, really effectively for a long time.

[00:22:53] So he keeps going back to it.

[00:22:56] When the evil one sees somebody who is fruitful in the Christian life and perhaps in ministry

[00:23:04] and has obviously the capacity for even more fruitfulness, that's something he's going

[00:23:10] to want to attack.

[00:23:10] So even just from a standpoint of spiritual warfare, it makes sense to me that often a precursor

[00:23:17] to somebody being even more effective and focused in ministry is this season of doubt.

[00:23:21] And just even apart from what God may be doing and how the Holy Spirit may be working, there's

[00:23:27] a spiritual warfare dimension to this that I don't think we should leave out.

[00:23:31] And the other thing is God is such a good economist.

[00:23:34] He makes such excellent use of every experience we have and every challenge we have.

[00:23:41] I remember a conversation with someone I love that was going through a hard time and was

[00:23:47] tempted to think at some level, I don't know if I really have a big contribution to make.

[00:23:56] Like just with some of the limitations I have in life, some of the things I'm going through.

[00:24:01] And one of my questions was, or one of my comments was, what if God actually wants to do the most

[00:24:09] through you?

[00:24:12] And even though these things that we're talking about are such a burden and such a struggle

[00:24:17] right now, like the main thing you want to do is just get rid of them or get past them.

[00:24:21] But what if actually this is essential to the work that God wants to do through you in the

[00:24:27] lives of others?

[00:24:28] So I just believe God works in a unique way for each person.

[00:24:32] There's no formula at all.

[00:24:34] But it also makes sense to me that God will use what we go through, including our doubts

[00:24:39] and struggles, to strengthen us ultimately, but also to empower us to strengthen others.

[00:24:45] This is one of the ways that God works.

[00:24:47] So whether you look at it from a sort of spiritual attack perspective or a sovereignty of God making

[00:24:53] all things work for good, including the struggles we have, it makes a lot of sense to me that those

[00:24:59] seasons of doubt and struggle, there's something good that's coming.

[00:25:02] And I'll just give a testimony in my own life as well.

[00:25:06] One of the things that helps me a lot when I'm having a problem or going through a struggle

[00:25:11] or having a challenge is just the thought, you know what?

[00:25:16] This is going to be useful because I'm going to have more empathy for others.

[00:25:21] I'm going to understand other people that are going through the same thing I'm going

[00:25:24] through.

[00:25:24] This is something I can teach from the Bible about because it's become more important

[00:25:28] to me through this struggle.

[00:25:30] And it's often kind of a turning point for me when I realize like, this isn't wasted.

[00:25:35] God can really do something good with this.

[00:25:38] And that might be just a word of encouragement, Nick, for anyone who's listening right now who's

[00:25:42] going through one of those seasons of struggle and trouble.

[00:25:45] Definitely doesn't mean that God is through with you.

[00:25:48] It does not mean you're going to be in this struggle forever.

[00:25:51] This might actually be something you look back on.

[00:25:54] And it's one of those things where you go, I never want to go through that again.

[00:25:57] Kind of wish I didn't have to go through it at all.

[00:25:59] But I see God has done some really good things.

[00:26:03] And I think there's little doubt you're a better pastor, a more sympathetic listener, like

[00:26:10] all of those things, because you really tested to see what is true.

[00:26:14] And you felt the weight of those struggles and God used that in a great way.

[00:26:18] So I think we can all anticipate those kind of experiences in life.

[00:26:23] That's great.

[00:26:24] Let me ask you, in your experience, are there any specific questions or doubts that people

[00:26:28] are struggling with today compared to previous generations?

[00:26:34] Yeah, I think that's a great question.

[00:26:38] I think one way I would answer it is to say that there are always going to be doubts, core

[00:26:48] aspects of God's character and of his plan of salvation.

[00:26:52] Always going to be doubts about the incarnation and the Trinity and the resurrection, like these

[00:26:57] core tenets of the Christian faith.

[00:26:59] But the shape those take in different communities and in different points of history can be quite

[00:27:06] different.

[00:27:08] I think one of the things that maybe is more doubted now, yes, there are doubts about truth.

[00:27:15] People have doubts about whether what the Bible says is true.

[00:27:17] I think we have a lot of doubts about whether there is a true, positive spiritual power in

[00:27:26] Christianity that makes people beautiful and makes communities more harmonious.

[00:27:33] Like when people see the brokenness of the church, the fallenness of Christian leaders,

[00:27:37] the brokenness of Christian relationships, so many disunities in the Christian community.

[00:27:42] The question they're asking isn't so much, is that true, but do I even want to be a part

[00:27:48] of that?

[00:27:48] And is there any real spiritual power and authenticity to that?

[00:27:52] I think there are a lot of questions around those kinds of things, particularly among younger

[00:27:56] Christians.

[00:27:58] Yeah, I noticed you have a chapter on that.

[00:28:01] And I was going to ask you, what role do you think that the church plays in coming alongside

[00:28:08] people, helping them navigate doubt?

[00:28:10] And how can communities of faith be better equipped to help people with those things?

[00:28:15] Yeah, those are great questions.

[00:28:16] I mean, I think one just really simple thing is being open and honest about the doubts we

[00:28:23] see in Scripture and just wrestling with those and calling them to attention.

[00:28:33] I also think it's really helpful in the Christian community when we're honest about the doubts

[00:28:37] that we have.

[00:28:38] And, you know, just say like, that's a really good question.

[00:28:42] It's one I've wrestled with as well.

[00:28:44] I also think being willing to sit with the questions for a while rather than immediately

[00:28:48] like, got the answer for you.

[00:28:51] And if you would just believe this, that doubt would go away.

[00:28:54] Taking some time to ask some further questions.

[00:28:56] That's something we can do as caring Christian friends or perhaps as somebody in a ministry

[00:29:02] responsibility.

[00:29:03] You know, it can be good in a conversation to say, you know, that is an issue I've thought

[00:29:08] about.

[00:29:11] And I think there are some places we can turn in Scripture and some things that'll be helpful.

[00:29:16] They may not answer all the questions you have right away.

[00:29:20] But even before we get into that, I want to hear a little bit more about what you're burdened

[00:29:26] by and what your struggle is and make sure I've really heard that.

[00:29:28] Like taking the time to do that, I think, is a really good practice.

[00:29:33] I also think that providing opportunities for people to ask the actual questions they have.

[00:29:43] And there are a lot of different ways you can do this in a church context.

[00:29:46] There can be a place for people to submit anonymous questions.

[00:29:51] There can be a place for that kind of thing, give opportunities for that.

[00:29:56] But just communicating again and again, your question is welcome.

[00:30:01] One of the things that I repeated often when I was in a local church context to young people,

[00:30:08] first through sixth graders that I would speak to during a Sunday school hour,

[00:30:11] you can always ask me any question you have about God and Christianity you want.

[00:30:17] And that's from now for the rest of your life.

[00:30:19] Like it doesn't have to be right now.

[00:30:21] Like you may just tuck this away like 10 years from now, you may have like a question.

[00:30:25] You may call me from your university and have this question you have.

[00:30:29] So I just think normalizing the experience of doubt in the Christian life can be part of healthy church community.

[00:30:39] Do you think there's any potential downside to normalizing doubt?

[00:30:43] That's a really interesting question.

[00:30:46] I suppose, no, I basically know.

[00:30:49] But I suppose if you weren't also giving caring, truthful responses to doubts,

[00:30:57] so people are just kind of left kind of floundering spiritually.

[00:31:02] Also, I think it's important and certainly bears saying in this conversation and probably repeating,

[00:31:10] when people go through doubts in the Bible, God doesn't freak out that they have doubts.

[00:31:16] But he calls people to exercise trust and to worship him and to follow him.

[00:31:24] So we don't want to be complacent about doubt.

[00:31:28] We actually want to call people to growing faith and trust and confidence.

[00:31:34] And, you know, there is a place, I think we see it in the ministry of Jesus for saying,

[00:31:39] okay, you've got that doubt.

[00:31:41] Can you take this step of faith?

[00:31:45] And then can you take the next step after that and really calling people to that?

[00:31:49] So when I say I don't think there's a downside to talking about doubts,

[00:31:53] that's making certain assumptions about works.

[00:31:56] Studying the scriptures, we're calling people to faith.

[00:31:59] That's part of a healthy experience with doubt.

[00:32:03] You have a chapter on spiritual protection or supernatural protection.

[00:32:08] I was curious, what does that mean?

[00:32:11] How do you use that term?

[00:32:12] Is there something you think it means versus what it doesn't mean?

[00:32:16] Yeah.

[00:32:17] So I think, you know, in the story that I use is the story of Elisha Dothan and his servant

[00:32:22] that is freaked out because they're in physical danger and he doesn't see what Elisha sees,

[00:32:28] which is the armies of the angels of God who are there to protect them.

[00:32:31] I think the supernatural world of demons and angels, of God and Satan is mysterious,

[00:32:44] but it is also real.

[00:32:47] And the Bible never treats it as anything except absolutely real in a matter of utmost seriousness.

[00:32:56] There are a lot of ways that God protects us.

[00:32:59] And I think the one that is perhaps most important is just this spiritual area.

[00:33:05] Yes, physical protection and physical harm.

[00:33:07] You know, that's something that really affects us as physical beings in a physical world.

[00:33:12] But there's also an unseen realm and so many things God protects us from that we don't even recognize.

[00:33:18] And this can be an area, should be an area for us of prayer, asking for God's care and safeguarding,

[00:33:25] because we do have an enemy that's trying to destroy us and we need supernatural power of God.

[00:33:31] So those are a few, yeah, really preliminary thoughts on it.

[00:33:34] But I think it's an area, and I'll just say having some experience,

[00:33:38] you know, I've traveled to probably 40 different countries.

[00:33:39] I've got some experience of a global church.

[00:33:49] And that can be a helpful corrective for us.

[00:33:53] Yeah.

[00:33:55] Now, you talk about, you had this thing you said towards the end of the book,

[00:33:58] which I found really compelling.

[00:33:59] You said, when it comes to trusting God's resurrection power,

[00:34:02] that doubting Thomas should be considered a role model for Christians.

[00:34:06] First of all, I want to say, doubting Thomas, man, what a bummer of a nickname, right?

[00:34:11] Because it's like he had a bad week, and now he's like labeled for eternity.

[00:34:15] Right. No, so that's why I like to call him believing Thomas,

[00:34:18] because the important thing is not so much what doubts he had.

[00:34:23] And also, I find his doubts very relatable and pretty reasonable.

[00:34:30] So, I mean, one thing that was a bummer, part of his bad week,

[00:34:33] is he wasn't there when the other disciples saw the risen Christ.

[00:34:37] And frankly, the other disciples, he knew them well enough to know that their grasp of spiritual

[00:34:44] things was pretty loose at times, that they weren't totally reliable.

[00:34:51] I mean, so, you know, he can be forgiven for having a few doubts about all of that.

[00:34:55] But no, Thomas is, he's a really good role model in this regard.

[00:34:59] He had, he definitely had skeptical doubts, and he had questions.

[00:35:05] But he was willing to receive reasonable answers that would change his point of view,

[00:35:10] which not everybody is.

[00:35:12] Some people are so settled in their doubts, and there's like,

[00:35:14] there's nothing you could ever say or show them.

[00:35:17] One, I like, I might have even used it in the book, I can't remember.

[00:35:20] I love a quote from Luis Palau.

[00:35:22] Now, he says, one encounter with Jesus Christ is enough to change you instantly forever.

[00:35:30] And Thomas had that kind of encounter with the risen Christ.

[00:35:33] Like, he saw Jesus, I'm not even sure.

[00:35:36] I mean, the Bible doesn't really say, I'm not convinced he even had a need to touch the wounds

[00:35:41] of Christ.

[00:35:42] He saw Jesus, and he said, my Lord and my God, there you go.

[00:35:46] He's ready to serve, and then he served God in remarkable ways, as we know from the witness

[00:35:50] of history.

[00:35:51] So, I think he's an amazing model for us in so many ways.

[00:35:56] An honesty about his doubts, a willingness to believe, and with the belief came an absolute

[00:36:03] surrender to the purposes of God.

[00:36:06] And he became so useful for the kingdom.

[00:36:09] You were talking earlier about sometimes God can use this little season of doubt.

[00:36:12] I mean, Thomas had that.

[00:36:13] It was maybe only 24 hours or whatever it was right after Easter Sunday, maybe a little longer

[00:36:19] than that, because he probably was going through a period of those three days following the

[00:36:23] crucifixion.

[00:36:25] I mean, I can only imagine the spiritual distress and dismay and struggle that he went through.

[00:36:30] And then all the other disciples seemed to be ganging up against him like he went through

[00:36:35] this struggle.

[00:36:35] But the fruit of that was amazing.

[00:36:37] It was the gospel going to India.

[00:36:39] And there are people in, I mean, there are millions of people today in the world that trace

[00:36:45] their, ultimately trace their faith in Jesus Christ to Thomas's witness.

[00:36:49] So, you'd be hard-pressed to come up with a better role model for doubting, but then believing,

[00:36:55] trusting, obeying, proclaiming.

[00:36:57] And that's believing Thomas all over, and he should be one of our heroes of the faith.

[00:37:03] Wow.

[00:37:03] That's great.

[00:37:04] Final question.

[00:37:05] What does it mean to doubt our doubts?

[00:37:09] Yeah, it's a phrase I use in the book and in connection with Peter and Peter's experience

[00:37:16] of amazingly stepping out on the water to walk with Jesus and then having his doubts and

[00:37:21] needing to be rescued.

[00:37:24] Here's, I think, the value of the phrase.

[00:37:26] Some of us have just a bit more of a skeptical mindset about everything.

[00:37:30] We're more of a contrarian, like somebody says something and we're just always saying,

[00:37:34] is that really true?

[00:37:34] And how do you know that?

[00:37:36] And sometimes people use all of that energy, and sometimes people use all of that energy

[00:37:43] against God and against the truth of his word, when actually a lot of that energy should

[00:37:50] be directed against ourselves, like, well, is my doubt really well justified?

[00:37:56] And is my skepticism well-founded?

[00:37:58] And why don't I believe?

[00:37:59] Like, there are lots of really good questions we can use to scrutinize our doubts.

[00:38:03] And I think we'll come to a better place of understanding the truth if we don't just

[00:38:08] take our doubts as the most important thing and the ultimate truth about anything, but bring

[00:38:15] the same kind of healthy skepticism to our doubtfulness that we want to bring to God and to his word.

[00:38:21] You know, let's make use of what I think is a God-given gift.

[00:38:25] If we are more analytical and skeptical, God can use even that.

[00:38:29] But he won't be able to use that if we're only turning it against God and not turning it towards

[00:38:35] purposes that God may have for it in our lives.

[00:38:38] So that's why I think it's good for us to doubt our doubts.

[00:38:42] Excellent.

[00:38:42] So again, the title of the book is I Have My Doubts.

[00:38:45] People can find that through Crossway or wherever books are sold.

[00:38:49] Dr. Riken, what are some ways that people can keep up with you and your work at Wheaton College?

[00:38:54] Yeah, you know, they can listen to podcasts.

[00:38:58] I do some other podcasts as well.

[00:39:00] Wheaton College website and social media has some of that information.

[00:39:04] And we've got a page or two on the Wheaton College website that keeps up to date with maybe

[00:39:08] some of my upcoming speaking commitments and some of the things I've published.

[00:39:12] So I'm not active in any of those areas, but there are other people that are active on

[00:39:17] Wheaton's behalf.

[00:39:19] So there's probably, if you go to the Wheaton College website, type me in, you can probably

[00:39:22] find some really good stuff.

[00:39:25] Excellent.

[00:39:25] Well, thanks again for being a guest on Theology for the People.

[00:39:28] Thank you.

[00:39:32] Thanks for listening to this episode of Theology for the People.

[00:39:35] This fall, I'm posting semi-regularly some bonus episodes, so make sure to subscribe to

[00:39:40] the podcast if you haven't yet done so.

[00:39:43] That way you'll be notified when those episodes are released.

[00:39:46] Upcoming episodes will include a look at some of the early church councils, what they addressed,

[00:39:51] and what has been their lasting legacy for Christianity today.

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[00:40:12] Until next time, thanks for listening, and God bless you.