Habits of Grace which Lead to Growth: the Benefits of Journaling & Other Spiritual Disciplines - with Mike Neglia

[00:00:02] Spiritual growth doesn't come from journaling.

[00:00:04] I think spiritual growth comes from meditating deeply upon God's word

[00:00:09] and pointing out your heart to Him in prayer.

[00:00:11] Journaling is a way to, I think, amplify that.

[00:00:16] Or journaling is a way to kind of like add some intensity to that

[00:00:19] or even just leave a written record of that.

[00:00:26] Spiritual disciplines are intentional repeated practices

[00:00:30] which help you grow in relationship with God.

[00:00:33] In this episode I speak with my friend and colleague Mike Neglia

[00:00:37] about his practice of journaling and how it has benefited him spiritually.

[00:00:41] We also talk about the practice of taking notes in church

[00:00:44] as well as the value of different types of notebooks

[00:00:47] and other tactile things we can do to help us grow in our faith.

[00:00:52] Mike is the pastor of Calvary Cork in Cork City, Ireland

[00:00:55] and he is the host of the very popular Expositors Collective podcast.

[00:01:00] Together Mike and I serve on the executive team of Calvary Global Network

[00:01:04] and we're both leaders in the Expositors Collective initiative

[00:01:07] to raise up the next generation of Christ-centered expository Bible teachers.

[00:01:12] I hope you'll enjoy this conversation.

[00:01:14] I'll be back at the end with some final words.

[00:01:19] Mike Neglia, thank you for being a guest on Theology for the People.

[00:01:22] I'm honored that you're here.

[00:01:24] So glad to be here.

[00:01:25] One of my favorite podcasts.

[00:01:27] For our guest's sake, tell us where are you recording from?

[00:01:31] I'm recording from pseudo family vacation in Spain.

[00:01:37] So I live in Ireland at the time of recording this.

[00:01:41] We're like three days after Easter and my wife said she was sick and tired

[00:01:46] of seeing me stressed for the past couple of months.

[00:01:49] So she booked a family trip to Spain

[00:01:54] and I had some important pre-booked Zoom calls that I am fulfilling my obligation to.

[00:02:03] First and foremost is yourself, Nick, and the wonderful listeners

[00:02:06] to Theology for the People podcast.

[00:02:09] Yeah, I like to think of this maybe part of your vacation.

[00:02:14] You know what?

[00:02:14] I will start to come at that way as well.

[00:02:18] All right, cool.

[00:02:20] So just two guys.

[00:02:22] Hang on a second.

[00:02:23] I think the last time I was on this show, I had just been to a spa like the day before.

[00:02:30] I want people to know that these are rare little changes to a very hectic schedule,

[00:02:38] but it's an honor to talk to you.

[00:02:41] Mike, what are we talking about today?

[00:02:43] We're talking about journaling as a spiritual discipline.

[00:02:48] And I'll start by telling a little story.

[00:02:50] I was with you the one time that you have visited me at least in Colorado.

[00:02:56] We were together, you preached at our church, we had a great day.

[00:03:00] We drove up to Estes Park, we were in Rocky Mountain National Park,

[00:03:03] we stopped at a coffee shop that I like to go to because I like their coffee.

[00:03:07] I like the vibe of the coffee shop.

[00:03:08] But you came out of the coffee shop having purchased something,

[00:03:12] packet of notebooks and you gave me one and you said,

[00:03:15] this is going to change your life.

[00:03:17] Keep it in your pocket and use it.

[00:03:20] And it took me one year to go through that journal.

[00:03:23] And I remember I saw you like six months later and you're like,

[00:03:25] you're still using that same one?

[00:03:27] Like, come on man, what are you even doing?

[00:03:30] But since then, I would say it has changed my life.

[00:03:33] I have used these pocket journals, I've used other kinds of journals,

[00:03:37] and I was inspired by you.

[00:03:38] So Mike tell us about your journey with journaling and also like,

[00:03:43] is this just a fun thing that you do or is there something deeper to this

[00:03:47] that warrants it being an episode of Theology for the People?

[00:03:50] Yeah.

[00:03:52] Yeah, I mean, yeah, there's a lot that could be said if this was,

[00:03:55] let's say even the two dudes talking podcast, you know, about paper and stationary and

[00:04:04] fountain pens.

[00:04:05] Like we have a lot of just like human enjoyment from this,

[00:04:08] but I'm aware this is the other theology for the People Podcast.

[00:04:11] So I want to kind of limit my thoughts or my contributions to this conversation about

[00:04:19] like maybe the spiritual or the Christian benefit of journaling.

[00:04:24] Because I was like a journal or a notebook user since before my conversion,

[00:04:30] you know, I would have played in bands like in my teenage years.

[00:04:34] I always was the vocalist.

[00:04:36] I was, you know, carrying around notebooks goodness for like two and a half decades.

[00:04:42] I've been carrying a notebook around on my person in my backpack always because,

[00:04:47] you know, I never knew what an idea would strike for a song or planning out this or that

[00:04:54] or the other thing.

[00:04:54] So I've been my brain is just oriented towards that.

[00:04:58] And then like God saved me in the year 2000.

[00:05:03] And I have, I guess, folded the habit that I had beforehand of keeping a notebook,

[00:05:09] keeping a journal and then integrating that into like my life with Jesus.

[00:05:14] And in the past couple of years, I've noticed that other Christians have written about

[00:05:23] journaling.

[00:05:23] And so it's not a matter of like, oh, I've read about the value of Christian

[00:05:28] journaling.

[00:05:28] And so I started it.

[00:05:29] I've been doing it for a long time.

[00:05:31] And then I saw, you know, Donald Whitney wrote about it.

[00:05:35] I think Elaine Calhoun and others have written about it.

[00:05:38] So I'm kind of like reverse engineering this.

[00:05:41] And I found a lot of like Christian benefits from the practice of journaling.

[00:05:46] So long way of saying, I've been journaling for most of my life and it's been

[00:05:51] beneficial to me personally, emotionally, intellectually.

[00:05:54] And it's also helped in my prayers.

[00:05:58] It's helped in my interaction with God's holy word and those things have helped me

[00:06:02] in my spiritual growth.

[00:06:03] Yeah.

[00:06:04] So Mike, what is your kind of thesis point about why is journaling a spiritual practice?

[00:06:10] Why is it a spiritual discipline?

[00:06:12] And then I've got some questions to challenge that idea.

[00:06:15] Okay.

[00:06:15] Yeah.

[00:06:16] Yeah.

[00:06:16] Well, so yeah, I would say that that journaling like in the presence of God,

[00:06:21] so journaling consciously, thoughtfully as a Christian that helps spiritual growth.

[00:06:28] And then to even like dial it in even further, I've done some really cool research about how

[00:06:33] actually using paper and a pen actually helps even more so on a spiritual level and then

[00:06:42] emotionally, socially on a well-being level as well.

[00:06:46] So I think journaling is good.

[00:06:48] And then I also would argue for like the intentionally inefficient slowing down and using

[00:06:56] paper and pen in a world full of like voice dictation, emojis, typing,

[00:07:02] so many other things that we could like get our ideas out quickly.

[00:07:06] I think it's valuable to slow down use pen and paper and write our thoughts out.

[00:07:12] Mike, I mean, is there's obviously like no Bible verse about this, right?

[00:07:16] Obviously, it says somewhere that everyone needs to have a paper notebook on them at all times and

[00:07:21] they need to use a pen.

[00:07:23] No, it's not.

[00:07:25] It's kind of like extrapolating.

[00:07:26] I guess a couple of things.

[00:07:28] I could be kind of like cheeky that I could say, well, listen, God wrote a book and Ephesians

[00:07:34] 5 says that we're supposed to be imitators of God.

[00:07:37] So that means that we should be writers.

[00:07:38] But I don't think that's that cuts it.

[00:07:42] I mean, I also like some of the books in the Bible look as if they're just like the personal

[00:07:49] journals of the like the reflections of say Nehemiah, Daniel.

[00:07:54] So we see certain biblical authors even use kind of a self-reflecting kind of journal

[00:08:02] and that then becomes inscripturated and included in the pages of a Bible.

[00:08:07] But that's not enough to try to convince people that they need to write a book.

[00:08:11] But they need to do this because again, just because the Bible is formed in a certain way,

[00:08:15] doesn't mean that that needs to be how we need to operate.

[00:08:20] I know that the Bible encourages Christians towards growth and it encourages us towards

[00:08:27] like meditating upon God's word and speaking back to him in prayer.

[00:08:33] And particularly, the notion of meditating upon God's word in like a very distracted day and age

[00:08:42] that we're in when even when we're on holidays in Spain with our family, we still are connected

[00:08:49] to so many possibly thousands of people.

[00:08:52] I think that meditating slowly thinking about anything for a long time is a rare commodity.

[00:08:59] And for me and for many other of my brothers and sisters around the world,

[00:09:03] slowing down and writing things out is a helpful process.

[00:09:07] So an answer to your question, no, I don't have a verse, but I do have like a collection of ideas

[00:09:12] that like God wants us to grow.

[00:09:14] Growth comes by meditating upon God's word and this is a way to get it from the printed

[00:09:21] pages of a leather bound Bible into my convoluted messy brain by writing about it,

[00:09:30] pulling out and yeah, journaling about the content of the Bible.

[00:09:34] Okay, well let's talk about spiritual disciplines and practices like what let's just come up

[00:09:41] with a list. What are what our spiritual practices? How many of them are actually found in the

[00:09:47] Bible versus how many of them are just like good things to do?

[00:09:52] Yeah, hey great. Well, okay, I do have a book and I think I might have called her a net Calhoun

[00:10:00] earlier on and I think I got the yeah, her name is actually Adele Calhoun so forgive me for that.

[00:10:08] She has kind of a big old book of like spiritual disciplines and I think there's like more than

[00:10:16] a hundred that are there and now she's not making the case that you need to do these things or else

[00:10:22] you're like a lame loser Christian but that includes there's a chapter on journaling.

[00:10:28] There's also stuff in there about like labyrinth prayers. I think there's things in there

[00:10:34] about like thank you notes and other other things that some people have found helpful

[00:10:39] and useful and others haven't. When it comes to like what are what does the Bible tell us

[00:10:45] that we need to do in order to grow? I think we need to be students of God's word not just like

[00:10:52] intellectually learning it but like Psalm chapter one becoming like a tree having roots that go down

[00:10:58] and that draw up nourishment so that we can grow and give fruit in its season. So like studying the

[00:11:04] Bible but then also like imbibing and meditating upon the Bible as I mentioned earlier praying

[00:11:13] and that could be praying for you know my friend Nick who has a collection of challenges

[00:11:20] in front of him even this very day but more than just praying for others but you know prayers of

[00:11:26] adoration and gratitude and thankfulness to God. These are some of the ways that we can

[00:11:32] be formed and grow into a mature Christian and there's other stuff you know I taught a 13 week

[00:11:40] series on this I could give you a list of 13 but most of these have to do I think mostly with

[00:11:45] intake of God's word and then outtake like speaking to God in prayer. Yeah I mean some of them that I

[00:11:53] can think of you know we're talking about like being in fellowship with other believers

[00:11:58] being generous with your material means there are probably some like singing to the Lord could

[00:12:05] be a spiritual discipline that falls into the category of one that you already mentioned fasting

[00:12:10] you know these can all be considered spiritual disciplines and so I guess the question is like

[00:12:16] okay what is a spiritual discipline and what is the purpose of it how would you define that?

[00:12:21] Yeah well you know I mentioned we did a 13 week teaching series at my church

[00:12:27] on these and so I have to rein myself in but we called that series habits of grace and growth

[00:12:37] because I think even the word discipline like it has some kind of harshness to it

[00:12:44] some sharp edges to it and we just found the idea like the language of habit to be

[00:12:51] like a nice on ramp and so it's a habit it's something that we consistently or assistantly do

[00:12:59] it's not just that we muster up all of our strength and we do it once but it's that we have a

[00:13:05] pattern a rhythm of coming back to these things again and again and whether it is

[00:13:11] personal prayer whether it is like weekly or monthly or quarterly generosity like intentionally

[00:13:18] giving money away whether it is fasting as you mentioned it's things it's not that you do once

[00:13:25] out of a burst of enthusiasm but it's something that you decide is going to be part of the way

[00:13:30] that you just do life this is how I live I include these types of things. Yeah and I think that

[00:13:36] I like to phrase I heard once you know a lot of people in modern western society they push back

[00:13:42] against some of the idea of going through the motions in other words were formed by the

[00:13:47] romantic movement and a lot of that had to do with like saying we need to buck structure

[00:13:53] because structure is I guess antithetical to the heart and so the romantics you know had this idea

[00:14:02] that we need a buck structure in almost every arena and get to our true authentic self and to do

[00:14:09] that they said you know we need to get rid of anything that could be just perceived as going

[00:14:13] through the motions but I think the right pushback to that is to say well we all go through motions

[00:14:19] the question is what motions are you going through and where are those motions leading you

[00:14:24] what are they what are they making you into and that's you know like we've mentioned James K Smith

[00:14:30] on the podcast before and his idea of like cultural liturgies and he defines that as

[00:14:35] you know environments and practices that are repeated over time with the with the effect

[00:14:41] of making you into a certain kind of person and so I think that we would be wise to think through

[00:14:46] the habits uh that you mentioned of grace what was your title grace and growth great title and

[00:14:53] like how do we create those we all have habits whether they're intentional or not like maybe

[00:15:00] be intentional about them for the purpose of growing I think that you're absolutely right

[00:15:03] I just want to add like a bible verse to what you said earlier that um growth is important

[00:15:09] like I always think about what Paul says he says in two places one that I think of is in

[00:15:14] like Philippians you know he says that you know your growth would be evident to those who see

[00:15:23] but then he also says it in his letter to Timothy I can't remember it's one or two Timothy but

[00:15:28] he says to him you know let let your um progress in the faith be evident to those who look at

[00:15:36] you and I find that to be very challenging like what if somebody did look at my life have they seen

[00:15:44] me progressing in the faith and how do I take steps towards that so you know we've mentioned

[00:15:52] some that are clearly biblical and you've mentioned some that are you know meant from that book

[00:15:58] that you mentioned that are extra biblical yeah I was thinking about like do you remember

[00:16:02] Andrew Murray he had this whole thing where he would do the dishes and practice the presence of

[00:16:07] God and his whole concept was like you can essentially do anything as a communion with the Lord

[00:16:14] and so you know whether it's doing dishes journaling I guess this would be my pushback for you yeah

[00:16:20] what about non-literate people what about non-literate cultures in the past are they

[00:16:25] missing out on this grace um is this something given by God or is it just the discovery of our

[00:16:31] particular tool that can be helpful for spiritual growth yeah yeah that's a that's a super super good

[00:16:39] pushback I never you know I realize I am a in so many ways like I I have so many things going for me

[00:16:49] in life you know like I've got challenges you know some Nick you know and and there's other

[00:16:55] but like there's a lot of things that I'm gonna go in for me like number one like I can read

[00:17:00] you know my parents were able to like send me to a school that's taught me to read and like and also

[00:17:07] my parents had a house stocked with books you know and they thought it was a good thing and they

[00:17:12] praised me when they find me reading and that set me up for success and that isn't the case for

[00:17:19] for others you know some some kids had to go into employment early or some people were robbed

[00:17:24] of this and also there's like neuro atypical growth is all these things I'm a as far as I know

[00:17:31] I'm neuro typical as far as I know and I'm able to read and I've got a pretty decent recall of

[00:17:37] the things that I could read so I'm I want to acknowledge that but um and so yes there's people

[00:17:43] that can't read and I don't think that they're uh yeah I don't think that this is a blessing

[00:17:50] that they're cut off from I'd say the blessing isn't in journaling spiritual growth doesn't

[00:17:57] hopefully this isn't contradict myself spiritual growth doesn't come from journaling I think spiritual

[00:18:02] growth comes from meditating deeply upon God's word and point out your heart to him in prayer

[00:18:08] journaling is a way to I think amplify that or journaling is a way to kind of like add

[00:18:14] some intensity to that or even just leave a written record of that so there is some non-literate people

[00:18:22] that meditate on God's word that chew on it like a you know or not chew on it but they

[00:18:31] keep in their mouth like a like a Werther's original you know it's just constantly going from one

[00:18:34] side of the mouth to the other they're thinking about God's word maybe more than I do

[00:18:40] because I'm too busy distracted by reading everything else or thinking about this that

[00:18:43] or the other thing so I think the benefit of journaling is that it takes meditation or it takes

[00:18:51] whatever prayer God's word and it just like makes it stick in a way that's helpful for me so

[00:18:59] if someone is simply thinking about this if somebody is doing the dishes and just loving

[00:19:04] the Lord those are just ways to help them to express that and for me writing in a notebook

[00:19:11] helps me to get those thoughts in order okay so you know continuing that same thought if this is

[00:19:20] a tool that can be helpful for spiritual growth then is it limited to merely this one thing like

[00:19:27] could you take up lawn maintenance as a spiritual discipline or anything that helps you slowly

[00:19:34] process and reflect so in other words is there anything divinely ordained about this or is it

[00:19:42] reflecting a more broadly applicable principle yeah that's really good you know I I'm tempted to

[00:19:49] go grab my wife Rachel and then bring her in on this because she gets so like she loves gardening

[00:19:56] and for her gardening does what journaling does for me in that it like it forces her to slow down

[00:20:04] it causes her to be like with this dirt with this earth you know and then as she is like

[00:20:11] you know like on her knees with dirt you know all this like that and then as she's even just like

[00:20:16] aware of like the seasons that are coming and what plants will be growing this time and

[00:20:21] like this is all her like interacting with God's word start God this is all her interacting with

[00:20:27] God's world and it is like very good healthy for her and you know her her friends and also her

[00:20:35] husband sometimes can be frustrated because she insists on doing this without a phone and so

[00:20:40] she'll leave the phone in the house and then we'll just spend two hours like playing them in

[00:20:45] the dirt um but it brings her immense joy it helps her as like a mind body soul person

[00:20:55] and and then the reason why I'm coming to this too is like in the morning uh you know she'll

[00:21:01] make a couple coffee and then she just goes and she just stands in the back and I could see her

[00:21:05] from you know I'm in the house I'm making the um lunches for the kids before I send them to

[00:21:10] school and then she's just kind of there standing drinking coffee just looking around and for her

[00:21:16] that often is a time of her prayers but she says sometimes like I'm so distracted just by looking

[00:21:20] at the garden that I can forget to pray but for her this has been a real tool that has like centered

[00:21:26] her and helped her in we've had some really stressful times in the past two years um and

[00:21:33] the garden for her is like I said kind of journaling for me is that time to kind of

[00:21:38] slow the pace down to like a human speed pace and to really think through these these things that

[00:21:44] are going on in life in the presence of God so yeah maybe I'm doing the best job of journaling

[00:21:50] journaling um again it's not journaling it's the idea of like slowing down and just like

[00:21:55] thinking in God's presence and whether you have like tulip bulbs in your hand or like as as

[00:22:02] brother Lawrence the you know the the monk from 600 years ago has he found enjoying God's presence

[00:22:10] whilst doing the dishes or whether it's my wife with the tulips or whether it's me and a notebook

[00:22:16] I think the common denominator is just being aware of God's presence

[00:22:21] you know I um was I use a notebook all time keep it in my pocket keep a pen on me and

[00:22:28] but then the other day I was I had this thought and I thought I should write that down

[00:22:34] and then I didn't write it down and now I don't know what that thought was yeah and so I think there's

[00:22:39] something about writing something down as you think of it that helps you to not let that

[00:22:49] thought be lost I think maybe that's more effective as you get older yeah yeah maybe

[00:22:54] maybe as we get older too but I'm knowing to like turn around and come back to the house if I don't

[00:23:00] have a pen in my pockets like it's um you know it's almost I'm just saying oh yeah I'm neuro-typical

[00:23:06] but it also is like such like an anxiety producing thing if I don't have a pen in my

[00:23:10] pockets because the thought is like what if I have a good idea and and I lose it and so I'll

[00:23:16] turn around and then go get the pen and you know Nick a good idea isn't guaranteed

[00:23:22] and maybe they turn so rarely I would hate to let another one get away from me

[00:23:29] and so that's a yeah it's a valuable thing and there's a phrase you know actually that a field

[00:23:36] notes say that I'm not I'm not writing it down to remember it later I'm writing it down to

[00:23:41] remember it now and on the one hand you know yes it is helpful for later but writing it down

[00:23:48] now again it's just like this is happening now this is important to me now and so I want to have some

[00:23:54] sort of a of a record I want to literally inscribe this on something because it's important I want

[00:24:01] to have it and then I find that even writing things down now it makes it not even that necessary

[00:24:09] to have to go back and read it once again because the act of writing it out actually gets it into

[00:24:14] your brain quite deeply and there was like a Norwegian study that's like that proved that point

[00:24:20] it was like analyzing the way different students work and they um they sat through lectures and the

[00:24:26] control well I well one one half anyway they typed as the lecture was going they were typing hours

[00:24:34] almost word for word verbatim what the professor was saying and the other half

[00:24:38] was using handwritten notes and on the brain stands it was even seen mentally different lobes

[00:24:45] and parts of the brain are connecting with each other as the student is writing things down

[00:24:50] as the typing student isn't because the typing student is like listening to the ideas and it's

[00:24:58] going through her brain out her fingertips and then she's just typing it out so she's like

[00:25:02] she's like a sternographer basically but the student who is writing by hand is actually

[00:25:10] having to listen to what the professor is saying summarize it and then quickly what's the most

[00:25:15] important thing about what they said and then write to kind of keep up so I kind of joked

[00:25:20] earlier on it's deliberately inefficient or because there's faster ways of doing these things

[00:25:27] but even as you have to interact with the ideas and then you like put them in a hierarchy what's

[00:25:32] the most important thing that was just said okay and then you write that down that's so much better

[00:25:36] for your brain so all that yeah I think it's it's garden is great yeah but I do think that

[00:25:44] writing things I mean that's one of the things and I'm actually really glad to see people

[00:25:49] you know I'm a pastor you're a pastor I love to see people take notes um during during sermons

[00:25:56] not as like an ego boost but it makes me think like that person is probably getting more out of it

[00:26:02] than than others and that's a that's an arbitrary thing but I really see like okay that person is

[00:26:08] that pen and hand is like a symbol of like I'm focusing on what's taking place and I want to

[00:26:13] capture the most important things or I'm even ready to hear God speak to me through

[00:26:18] what Mike's going to be saying for the next 35 minutes yeah you know I've started it with

[00:26:24] every time I'll have a meeting I will you know open up my notebook I started a new page for that

[00:26:29] meeting and and also I encourage people to take notes in church a lot and again not an ego thing

[00:26:37] here's what it communicates I am expecting that there will be something that is so important

[00:26:43] that I'm not going to want to forget it and I think that that is training you to think in a

[00:26:49] certain way God is going to speak I'm gonna hear something that is going to be worthy of remembering

[00:26:58] and um yeah I think that it changes the tone of your meetings I think it changes the way that you

[00:27:04] approach listening to a sermon and I think it's also really healthy because now we've gotten

[00:27:10] into the habit that you know you see people will watch they'll watch tv and scroll on their phone

[00:27:17] at the same time but that also happens in church by the way I don't know you know if you're listening

[00:27:22] to this uh we can see you right like we can totally see you you're just like scrolling on your phone

[00:27:28] and I'm glad you're there I'm glad you're listening but think how much of a different

[00:27:32] experience it is when you put down your phone you want to have something in your hands so put

[00:27:37] this in your hands and write down the things that are said I heard this verse once used as a

[00:27:43] kind of apologetic for note-taking and journaling I'm not sure if that's actually a good use of the

[00:27:49] verse or accurate use of the verse but it's Habakkuk 2 verse 2 have you heard this one

[00:27:54] of course yeah Lord said to me write the vision make it plain so the he who may run may read it

[00:28:01] so yeah I mean clearly that was a special revelation to Habakkuk that what God was saying needed

[00:28:10] to be written down yeah but hey if God's gonna speak to me and he's God yeah I really probably

[00:28:16] should yeah remember it yeah that's right so Mike what does journaling look like for you

[00:28:22] practically yeah okay yeah actually yeah I was I think on the one hand we're talking about all

[00:28:28] these ideas or concepts but I would hope that that the listener would you know they're on the

[00:28:34] edge of their seat they're saying what do I do next well number one yeah you go you buy a journal

[00:28:40] and and I would say um I would say the smaller one is better than a bigger one and and here's why

[00:28:50] if you have a big expensive leather bound journal 365 pages and you miss a few pages it's just like

[00:28:58] what a defeat you know and you're never gonna finish this stupid thing and I might as well

[00:29:03] just go start a garden you know and then you're done with this I think that there's something

[00:29:07] it's like a little brain hack you know using a very small you you you're able to make progress you get

[00:29:15] half you get the staple day your halfway there you keep on going there's like this idea of like hey it's

[00:29:21] not gonna take me that long to finish this thing and then you get the reward of starting a new one

[00:29:26] so that's kind of if you're new to this I'd say don't buy a very expensive big leather bound

[00:29:32] journal but start start small I like a brand called field notes that was the the first notebook

[00:29:38] that I gave to you that got you into all this mess um that was the notebook that our friend

[00:29:43] Connor Berry he gave to me many years ago like some multi-level marketing scheme that we're in on

[00:29:51] but yeah so like what are your thoughts about small journal versus big journal do you have

[00:29:54] any thoughts on that Nick? Yeah here's my thought on it um get a journal that doesn't cost a lot

[00:30:02] of money and here's why because I've had the nice journals and I always feel like I have to make the

[00:30:08] most of every page right? Yes that's what I like about the small journal it's like hey you burn a

[00:30:13] few pages you wrote down something that maybe isn't really that important who cares at least

[00:30:19] you know I mean so yes I'm like almost afraid to write in the journal that's too nice like for

[00:30:24] for example when I graduated with my masters they gave me a journal from the school and it's

[00:30:31] like you know branded and it's really nice and I haven't used it it's been years now and I haven't

[00:30:37] used it why because I'm like if I use it I gotta use it for something really important yeah um

[00:30:42] but then I've got um I found this is now what I'm using a lot I found these I think it's

[00:30:47] Midori or something like that it's like a Japanese paper it's fairly inexpensive but the

[00:30:52] paper is good quality and I don't mind burning through the pages for whatever reason I want to

[00:30:57] because it didn't cost a lot so yeah yeah well here's another super practical tip um I I feel that way

[00:31:05] about like yeah I want to write something important and then in my mind page one is the most important

[00:31:13] and so there's been times when I haven't even started because I didn't have anything

[00:31:18] noteworthy for page one so what I always do is I just skip page one I start on page two

[00:31:24] and so yeah I immediately go to page two and then I write my grocery list or just my my gripes or this

[00:31:32] or my concerns um and mentally just knowing page one doesn't have to be important and then I go

[00:31:38] to page two and then I will just start and then oftentimes um invariably then I will kind

[00:31:45] of find it a memory verse or a scripture passage that is important to me during that week or that

[00:31:52] month um something that I want to meditate on something that I want to memorize and then so

[00:31:56] I'll go back and then write that on page one retroactively so that kind of gives myself permission

[00:32:01] we just to just start you know I don't know who said this originally but like um uh yeah like

[00:32:08] like perfect is the enemy of the good and um published is better than perfect yeah that's it

[00:32:15] and I want things to be perfect but sometimes it's just a matter of getting out there and

[00:32:20] getting it's getting it you know now again with published my journals are never going to be published

[00:32:24] and here's another thought about about journals in my younger years you know I read the journals of

[00:32:34] I'm blanking on his name as well too he was martyred in was it Martin Ecuador Jim Jim Elliott

[00:32:41] and you know his journals deep and rich and robust and you know and I kind of thought like oh well is

[00:32:52] that what I have to do because sometimes I'm just nervous about this or I I am thankful for this and

[00:33:00] if this is going to be published one day well then it needs to be it needs to be great

[00:33:04] but the reality is I'm never going to be published my journals will never be published

[00:33:09] and they are like a record of my interaction with God and then sometimes they're my grocery list

[00:33:15] and then sometimes it's a reminder to talk to this person about the upcoming issue and then it kind

[00:33:20] of goes back into prayer and then it's this you know and so I had to get out of my head

[00:33:26] it's embarrassing to admit I have to get out of my head these are never going to be published

[00:33:30] and they don't need to be ready to be published they just I need to just get the ball rolling

[00:33:35] and get my thoughts out on paper talk with the talk with the Lord prioritize my thinking

[00:33:42] and get it written down as a tool towards prayer and meditation on God's word so yeah advice start

[00:33:50] small skip the first page don't worry you're not demilion you'll never get published like that

[00:33:56] hey do you know who was a notebook guy pastor Chuck Smith I didn't know that this no yeah

[00:34:03] you know ironically I didn't like I didn't listen to I didn't go to Calvary Chapel Bible

[00:34:08] College and I know that one of the rules there like one of the curriculum is you go through

[00:34:13] his teachings through the Bible and I don't know when I heard him say it but here's what I heard

[00:34:17] him say it was about prayer and he said that whenever he prays he likes to sit down and he

[00:34:24] always brings a notebook and pen and he said the reason is because when he prayed he felt that

[00:34:31] you know that was when he would start to have all these ideas and almost like

[00:34:36] destructive ideas to say oh yeah I got to call this person oh yeah I forgot to do this I forgot

[00:34:41] to do that and he said that what he would do is he would write all those things down so that he

[00:34:46] wouldn't forget them and you know also sometimes God would speak to him as he was praying and he

[00:34:52] wanted to write it down so that he could then continue praying and not have to like break

[00:34:58] it to like oh yeah I forgot to you know put that in this thing and and just you know break his prayer

[00:35:04] time so he used it as a tool to help him pray more effectively to hear from the Lord and to

[00:35:10] manage all of those thoughts that came up while he was praying yeah like I'm going to park this

[00:35:16] idea over here and then get back to the main thing yeah that's yeah well for me and I've

[00:35:22] over these years I've had different kinds of journaling and I and also you know there's been

[00:35:28] times when I keep a journal every day twice a day and I'm like pouring out my heart and I'm

[00:35:33] really reflecting on the day and then there's times when it's not so I've been doing this for like

[00:35:38] 25 years but I'm still I'm not an expert in this um but I also I do think I'm a much better

[00:35:44] person because of it because it's been a a place to do a brain dump it's been a place

[00:35:51] to record my quick little thoughts because it's been a way to slow down and process my thoughts

[00:35:57] before the the maker of heaven and earth I think it's helped me in my spiritual growth um but nobody

[00:36:06] should hear this and then think like I've got to attain to this high level of deep perfection

[00:36:14] in in the journaling it's just it's just a tool it's helped me and I think that it would

[00:36:20] help other people um something that that maybe for people that are thinking about starting this

[00:36:26] maybe they have a journal that they've never used or they wrote in page one and then they quit

[00:36:33] it's actually um like this prayer from Ignatius uh who was an early Christian leader um he

[00:36:42] he wrote something called the examin e x a m e n um which is kind of like a set of like five

[00:36:50] questions that he wanted people to ask themselves at the end of the day and I want to focus on like

[00:36:58] maybe the middle he says like think about your day that's our so this is kind of like a nighttime

[00:37:03] prayer think about your day and like where was god active in the day and then when were you aware of

[00:37:12] god's activity during the day and then did you like go along with it did you like walk in the

[00:37:19] spirit we would say or did you resist it were you like walking in a slush or in sin about that

[00:37:26] and then like how do you feel about that so where was god at work did you go with it or did you

[00:37:33] resist it and then like how do you feel about that for somebody who's thinking what's what he's

[00:37:39] been right about well that is I think the sort of thing that helps you to notice god at work

[00:37:45] and then write about it and that can be a practice that gets people into this whether they

[00:37:51] stick with it whether it's like a five point checklist every night for the rest of their lives

[00:37:56] or if that just helps them to process their thoughts in the presence of god on paper um then

[00:38:02] that's something that's an invitation into this yeah that's good one other thing that I had heard

[00:38:09] you say mike is that you've written out prayers what's the point of that what's the benefit to it

[00:38:15] and why should anyone ever do that well I mean yeah similarly to what I was saying about like the

[00:38:23] Norwegian students you know um when they're just typing really fast everything that they're hearing

[00:38:32] it's not ever really internalized and I found that sometimes in my personal prayers it could

[00:38:40] just be you know you know I'm just speaking really fast in English you know and this and that and that

[00:38:49] but then um to actually write it down and then to think like what actually am I trying to say

[00:38:55] and as I pray for my children one by one what do I actually what when I say dear god bless my kids

[00:39:03] what do I mean by that and what does that mean for Owen what does that mean for Rosie

[00:39:07] what does that mean for him and so it forces me to then write it out and so it's just a filter

[00:39:14] it's like it's deliberately slowing me down it's like it's like walking to the store instead of

[00:39:22] driving you know like yes you can get there you're both gonna ride at the same time but

[00:39:28] you're healthier when you walk it's better for you to walk when you're able to so again

[00:39:36] do I do it all the time no but am I glad that I do it when I do yes and then one other benefit

[00:39:43] from it is if I if I feel like it I can then go back weeks months years later to see the sort of

[00:39:51] things that I've been trained for and then to be able to like thank the Lord for answering those

[00:39:56] prayers do I reuse them once or twice I do but often often I don't um some people find benefit

[00:40:04] in reusing prayers um the the prayers that I tend to reuse are are not written by me

[00:40:12] I like the Valley of Vision or Every Moment Holy just recently I I just bought a new copy called

[00:40:21] Grace from Heaven Prayers of the Reformation published by our friends at Lexham Press

[00:40:27] so like I do like reading other people's prayers um that's kind of a prompt or help towards me

[00:40:35] but for me to write down my own prayers it's just helping me to focus it and get it on paper

[00:40:41] and then I was kind of like move on from there yeah you know one of the things I find about myself

[00:40:46] is that um you know I pray every day pray with my family and one of the things that can happen

[00:40:53] is that you just get into the habit of kind of praying the same thing and that's not necessarily

[00:40:58] bad it's but it does at some point it gets a little frustrating like is this is this really all

[00:41:04] that I have to say is this all I'm going to say yeah I you know thought of a good way to

[00:41:09] express my thanks and um bring my needs before God and now I haven't moved on from that I

[00:41:16] haven't grown or developed it so actually I think that that way you're describing is really

[00:41:20] good like you when I say bless Owen what would I mean by that and what do I truly hope and want

[00:41:29] to bring before the Lord I think that that is like deeply helpful yeah so I I commend it to you

[00:41:37] commend to the listeners again like here we are we're on two different continents we're using

[00:41:43] a high speed internet connection and I'm trying to talk people into like a deliberately slowed

[00:41:49] down life of you know and I gotta say on a related note Nick I loved your interview from

[00:41:57] a couple weeks ago on digital liturgies it was it was really good um you talked about some of those

[00:42:03] you know James K. A. Smith insights and then even what it looks like in the modern world

[00:42:08] but totally I totally get it and you know I love technology and and so do you but I think

[00:42:15] maybe because of my I don't know the necessity I feel like a necessity in my life to be so connected

[00:42:23] that I want to have conscious moments of disconnection in fact actually made me bring it full circle

[00:42:29] I think Donald Whitney in his book on the spiritual disciplines I think he called spiritual

[00:42:34] disciplines planned unavailability from the world and deliberate availability to God

[00:42:41] and whether that's new prayer fasting any of these other things it's it's this is a time

[00:42:49] when I'm consciously available only to God and and so again you know is there power in fasting

[00:42:57] is there power in prayer I don't really particularly know it's like fasting is powerful but I know

[00:43:03] God's powerful and I know that fasting is a way that makes us aware of the power of God

[00:43:08] and our own insufficiency so and I wouldn't even put journaling is the same category as fasting

[00:43:15] because at least the Bible mentions fasting at least the Bible like commends fasting whereas

[00:43:20] journaling is a total inference I'll be honest about that but it's it's useful because it connects

[00:43:27] people with the true power which is God himself can I end with a verse so Psalm 19 uh Psalm 19

[00:43:35] like says this the law of the Lord is perfect reviving the soul the testimony of the Lord is sure

[00:43:41] making wise the simple the precepts of the Lord are right rejoicing the heart the commandment of

[00:43:47] the Lord is pure enlightening the eyes the fear of the Lord is clean enduring forever the rules of

[00:43:53] the Lord are true and righteous altogether more are they to be desired in gold even much fine

[00:44:00] gold sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb moreover by them is your servant warned

[00:44:08] and in keeping them there is grace reward that's really good Mike thank you and could you just spend

[00:44:15] the next like moment maybe telling people about some of the things you're involved in how they

[00:44:21] can connect with you in person and online okay well if you want to connect you have to

[00:44:27] write out by hand a little note and then you have to mail it to me um no that's not that's not true at

[00:44:34] all um yeah so nick I get to serve uh with you on a couple different teams actually um so you and

[00:44:41] I are both from the Calvary global network leadership team to honor and a privilege to be

[00:44:46] part of like what God's doing through this family of churches um you and I also are on the

[00:44:53] expository's collective leadership team and that means that we get to travel uh and show up in

[00:45:00] different locations and help younger and newer bible teachers or even older and more experienced

[00:45:07] preachers um handle God's word um in a Christ centered expository way I'm looking forward to

[00:45:12] seeing you in Pleasanton California in the beautiful San Francisco Bay area on May 24th

[00:45:18] and 25th and all of our friends are invited yes even you it's true you are invited to come

[00:45:26] to Pleasanton California May 24th and 25th when I help you grow in your personal study and public

[00:45:32] proclamation of God's word and oh yeah I'm also pastor but yeah my main job my real job is that

[00:45:39] I'm a pastor of a church in Cork Ireland called Calvary Cork and um uh yeah you can see little

[00:45:49] 45 second clips of my sermons on social media we're adopting a new social media strategy

[00:45:57] and if you want to see some out-of-context clips you can go or go over to the Calvary

[00:46:03] Cork Instagram page and give them a like tell them theology for the people sent you awesome

[00:46:08] Mike thanks so much thanks for listening to this episode of theology for the people new episodes

[00:46:16] are released every Wednesday so make sure to subscribe to the podcast on whatever app you use

[00:46:22] in the next episode I'll be speaking with Dr. Carl Truman Dr. Truman is a theologian and

[00:46:27] philosopher he wrote the best book I read last year on the rise and triumph of the modern

[00:46:33] self his latest book is about the role and function of creeds in the Christian life and

[00:46:39] in the life of a church you won't want to miss that one theology for the people is a listener

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