Navigating Change in Ministry

[00:00:02] Welcome to the When She Leads podcast with Brenda Leavenworth.

[00:00:06] Tune in as Brenda and her team explore thought-provoking topics designed especially for women in ministry.

[00:00:12] We're delighted to have you here today.

[00:00:16] Not very many people like change. Maybe you're one of them.

[00:00:22] Today with Kelly and Krista, they're going to help me tackle the subject of navigating change in ministry.

[00:00:29] You guys like change?

[00:00:30] No, I'm not a changer. Krista is.

[00:00:34] Yeah, sometimes. I think I've gotten used to it over the years.

[00:00:37] Yeah.

[00:00:39] I actually like change. I don't like doing the same thing.

[00:00:42] So I'm one that kind of like embraces it. I think it's fun. It's exciting.

[00:00:48] Yeah, you're all that. Good for you.

[00:00:50] Good for you.

[00:00:51] That's a good thing.

[00:00:52] I think I'm used to big change. I can do big change and then smaller change.

[00:00:56] It's weird. I'm a little bit, it's a little bit harder for me, like smaller.

[00:00:59] Yeah.

[00:01:00] I don't know why.

[00:01:01] Well, I think it depends on how it impacts us too.

[00:01:04] Yeah.

[00:01:05] So what are some reasons that we don't like change? What are some of the things that you

[00:01:11] think that are reasons why people don't like change?

[00:01:16] Well.

[00:01:21] Nothing?

[00:01:22] Can we start over?

[00:01:24] I think like we talked about.

[00:01:26] Can we start over?

[00:01:30] It's hard to be, it's hard to be flexible and, you know, it changes, it challenges people.

[00:01:38] Any good change, bad, you know, a hard change, little change. It's challenging. And so I think

[00:01:47] that's probably why lots of people don't like change and nobody really likes living, like

[00:01:52] leaving their comfort zone either. Yeah. Right.

[00:01:54] It's comfortable in the zone.

[00:01:56] Right.

[00:01:56] I believe we're challenged to get out of our comfort zone a lot. And so it's when we step

[00:02:03] out in faith and do, you know, changes in different ways, whether it's from policy to,

[00:02:08] you know, whatever missions or ministry change or even job change, it's hard because it kind

[00:02:14] of makes, it puts us into the unknown sometimes.

[00:02:17] Yeah.

[00:02:18] Right.

[00:02:18] Depending on the step. And so it challenges things deeper in us, maybe our trust in the

[00:02:25] Lord and nobody, you know, things that are important to look at, but it does challenge those

[00:02:31] things.

[00:02:31] I think personality has a lot, like you were saying, you like change and I don't. And I think

[00:02:37] personality has a lot to do obviously with how we handle change. But I think for someone

[00:02:42] like me, routine and sameness brings me, when I talk about security, I'm not meaning like

[00:02:47] the God security, you know, and I know I'm secure in Christ, but I mean, in my everyday

[00:02:51] life, it, it centers me or I don't know. It just stabilizes me, I think. And I function much

[00:02:59] better in non-change.

[00:03:03] Well, I was wondering if that's like control.

[00:03:05] Yeah. I guess.

[00:03:08] Yeah. But anytime you change and you're changing that up, then that's, you know, it changes

[00:03:14] that too. But I don't know. I think some of this personality adapt better than others.

[00:03:19] A lot of it may be if someone has moved around a lot and had a lot of change in their life.

[00:03:25] My family still lives in the family I grew in the house would grow up in. So we never

[00:03:29] changed. My mom never changed the furniture. I went to the same school with the same kids,

[00:03:34] kindergarten through 12th grade, like nothing changed. And so I never really had to do that.

[00:03:39] So we hit ministry and we know in ministry that I think that's why we're having the conversation.

[00:03:45] Change is inevitable. And so we have to learn to adapt and to go with it because culture changes,

[00:03:54] people changes, methods change. Our church, I don't know, culture sometimes kind of changes in the

[00:04:01] year. We change as far as with, if you have kids, what season they're in kind of changes our season.

[00:04:07] And so it's, it's just inevitable. And so that's really why we're having this conversation. Change

[00:04:13] is a constant companion in our journey of faith and leadership, I think. So.

[00:04:18] Yeah. I was thinking some reasons why people don't like change and it could be like, we like

[00:04:23] control. Sometimes it's just that we want our way or we think we're right. I think as sometimes it's

[00:04:33] fearful, like we're fearful of what's coming or that change brings like instability. You were talking

[00:04:39] about, you know, we're fearful of the unknown or we, you know, we hear this all the time. Like we've

[00:04:44] always done it this way. Yeah. You know, why is that such a like, you know, prevailing statement?

[00:04:50] You know what I mean? Like, it's like, yeah. Um, other reasons could be that, you know, I don't know,

[00:04:56] like, I guess it's just that stability, like keeping our feet solid. And, and today we're talking

[00:05:03] through change in ministry. So it can be like shifts in leadership. It could be shifts in

[00:05:08] staffing, could be policies or procedures that we're trying to navigate through. And, and all

[00:05:14] of these things that we kind of have to just, you know, kind of go through in ministry and

[00:05:19] ministry change, right? It's constant. It's like fluid. Um, and like you were saying, Kelly,

[00:05:26] the why of, why we're having this convos, cause we need to know, right. How to navigate through

[00:05:31] these things. I was just kind of thinking on it and I know this is kind of, I don't know,

[00:05:35] my head just keeps going here, kind of thinking the big picture because we want to navigate

[00:05:39] well. Um, so how did Jesus navigate change? And we see him in his life, you know, the 33

[00:05:45] years here, but I was even thinking bigger, uh, Jesus leaving heaven and coming to earth.

[00:05:50] What a change that was. I mean, right. I mean just everything about it, but yet he, um,

[00:05:58] you see him desiring to do the father's will in the garden. Nevertheless, your will, not my will.

[00:06:04] And so he handled it in the spirit. He handled it in obedience and humility and submission. And so we,

[00:06:11] we look at even that and just think, okay, how do we, whether we like the change, whether we agree

[00:06:17] with the change, whether we're comfortable with the change, how do we embrace it using a word?

[00:06:22] Brenda said, how do we embrace it, lean into it and allow this to be opportunities for growth and

[00:06:28] for learning? And, you know, um, so often we do what Brenda said, we hold on. Well, we've always

[00:06:35] done it like this and we're holding onto something we did in the eighties, you know, and it's just like

[00:06:39] we, we got to move on and see what God is wanting to do. So, um, I think Jesus handled change well and

[00:06:46] we watch him. And so that's really our goal. How do we do this in the spirit? How do we do this

[00:06:51] full of faith and in the spirit and trusting him as we do it? Yeah, for sure. A couple of scriptures

[00:06:58] I thought about is Isaiah 43, 18 and 19, you know, do you not remember the former things nor consider

[00:07:06] the things of old behold, I will do a new thing. Now it shall spring forth. Shall you not know it?

[00:07:13] Um, I will even make a road in the wilderness and rivers in the desert. And you know, God doesn't

[00:07:20] change like his character and all those things, but, but the ministry, the way we do ministry,

[00:07:26] the things that we do daily life does change. And kind of reminded me of the story of the disciples

[00:07:32] when the, you know, they thought they were going off on a retreat and, um, they went to the other

[00:07:38] side of the lake and here they were thinking like, Oh, I'm finally going to get some rest.

[00:07:42] And then the people followed them, you know, around, they even beat them. I think they were

[00:07:46] going over in a boat and the people like ran around the inside of the lake. And, and, you

[00:07:50] know, and, and it was like, no, send them off to get bread. You know what I mean? Send them

[00:07:55] off to get bread and, um, send them away. And Jesus said, no, you feed them, you know? And here

[00:08:02] it was that like the disciples, that's, that's an immediate change, you know? So how, and when,

[00:08:07] and those are ones are, are hard too, because I feel like, you know, in some senses we plan

[00:08:12] things as ministry leaders and then we, we course correct as we go, as we're listening

[00:08:18] to the Lord. And sometimes that requires our teams, our people under us to have to make a

[00:08:24] switch rather quickly. And not everybody gets on board with that right away. And sometimes

[00:08:29] it's like, no, I think the Lord is going in this direction, or I think this is what the

[00:08:33] Lord says, or I don't know how many times have you jumped up on a stage and you're doing a

[00:08:38] retreat or an event or something. It's like, nope, the Lord wants us to do this. And you

[00:08:42] just go with it. And just getting after that change can be hard sometimes. Um, but I just,

[00:08:49] I love that we have these examples of Jesus, you know, changing on the spot, going with what

[00:08:56] the spirit is saying to do. Um, and he prepared them for that. Yeah. Yeah. I think you talked a lot

[00:09:04] about flexibility to Brenda in that, not just the people may be serving with us in these areas, but,

[00:09:12] um, us too, like whether they're ministry leaders or leading things, just being flexible and how

[00:09:19] we do our ministries, um, how we, how we, not just how we run them, but this even events we have,

[00:09:26] you know, and we talked about this the other day when we were discussing the show of, you know,

[00:09:32] having an event and Kelly brought this up too, like we've done it this way all the time and it

[00:09:36] seems to be going well, but then all of a sudden you stop kind of praying about it as intensely as

[00:09:41] you should stop looking for the direction of the Lord. Cause you're like, Oh, I did this last year

[00:09:46] and it was good and it's growing. So I'm going to do it again this year, exact same way. It's good

[00:09:52] and it's growing and that's great. But is that what God's calling? Things can grow, right? Things

[00:09:57] can change and grow and not always be what God is the direction God is wanting us to go in.

[00:10:03] And so we have to be very wise and careful and prayerful of all these things we do, which means

[00:10:09] being flexible in his direction and letting things go too. Um, if things need to change, I think that's

[00:10:16] hard sometimes as ministry leaders to let things go, especially if things are going really well,

[00:10:22] you're like, wait a minute, things are going well. Why, why do you want me to turn here when this way

[00:10:28] is going so good, Lord? And we would have missed it. Had we been just keep on, on the same track,

[00:10:33] doing the same thing because it's working. Well, that's great. But you know, God is always trying

[00:10:39] to do something in us. Yeah. So taking that time to, to pray and to always seek after this and not

[00:10:46] just continuing in the same old thing, but that is hard. Yeah. It's hard. I think our pride gets

[00:10:51] involved too, when we're the one being asked to change, maybe, uh, whether we're changing the Lord's

[00:10:57] asking us to, or whether we're under somebody who's changing and we're trying to navigate that

[00:11:02] our, our pride gets in. Um, we need humility. Um, I think so often change has to do number one with

[00:11:10] our personality type and also number two, our emotions, because all the emotions, prides, why

[00:11:14] are we changing? You know, you start to feel rejected. Wait, my way's better. Why aren't you

[00:11:18] listening to me? And I don't know just all the things. And so how do we set aside our own

[00:11:23] personality and don't just do it because that's what we do or how we are, uh, set aside our emotions

[00:11:29] and then stay in the spirit, you know, and see how to do this through the spirit is really, um,

[00:11:34] important. I don't know. And I think when we have a hard time with something, a change,

[00:11:39] like say our ministry leader, our pastor, who, you know, whoever is leading us and we have a hard

[00:11:45] time with it, you know, I think oftentimes we need to think about it. Why am I having a hard time?

[00:11:51] Is it personal? Again, is my emotions involved? Is it just my personal opinion of what you want me to?

[00:11:57] Is it experiential or is it a doctrinal? I think it's off doctrinally. We have to figure out what

[00:12:02] is it that's making me struggle like this. And if it's doctrinal, Hey, then talk to your leader and

[00:12:07] discuss that. But if it's just your personal opinion, there's a million ways to do things and

[00:12:12] trusting your leader that they're listening to the Lord and going forward. I think that's,

[00:12:17] you know, I think that's, well, I think you're talking about two really good principles.

[00:12:21] One looking at the authority structure, the way your ministry set up. So if you're,

[00:12:27] if you're under somebody that's making the decision, then submission comes into play, right?

[00:12:32] Yeah. As long as it's not ungodly, then it's just opinion. It's like, look at the authority

[00:12:38] structure. Am I the one making the decision? If not, let it go and, and you know, be able to,

[00:12:45] yeah, trust them and be able to submit to their authority. Um, it's on them either way, you know,

[00:12:51] like you said, and I think there are ways that God has given us to, if it's an ungodly thing that

[00:12:57] your people are wanting you to change, then you got to look at it a different way. And you have to

[00:13:01] go through the steps in that sense to confront that. Very definitely. Part of all this too, is just being,

[00:13:09] um, as we talked about a little spiritually prepared for whatever change may come. Definitely. You know,

[00:13:16] and that is like you guys are talking about, uh, looking at our pride and making sure we're, um,

[00:13:24] being humble and the things that we are called to do and serve in. Um, but spiritually prepared

[00:13:30] because the enemy is going to come in and make you doubt every single thing you've ever done when you

[00:13:35] want it when something changes and then you question all the, you know, the tactics of the enemy.

[00:13:41] They're not new and he uses the same things with all of us. So you question everything and, um,

[00:13:46] he can really get ahold. So you're preparing yourself spiritually, what a change might be

[00:13:51] from a big change to a small change. Change is change and it's hard and it can affect, I think

[00:13:56] to being compassionate with people that, um, might struggle with change. Even if it's something just

[00:14:01] small, um, that could be a huge something for somebody in ministry to maybe some of the leaders

[00:14:08] in the church or the ministry leader, maybe it's not that big a deal, but for somebody who's,

[00:14:14] that's a big deal. You know, everyone's made so uniquely and differently and God works in them so

[00:14:19] differently too. I think, um, having compassion, that it could be a struggle, something that's

[00:14:24] small for me could be huge for somebody else. Yeah. I think for me, sometimes I could miss that and be

[00:14:31] like, Oh, why aren't you just, you know, rolling with it? It's not that big a deal. Yeah. And,

[00:14:36] but for them, that's their whole, that's kind of their whole focus right now. And I might've gone

[00:14:42] in and really upset that without taking into consideration them. And I think that's important

[00:14:49] too, with changes, you know, as ministry leaders, we do have, um, the authority and things to change

[00:14:55] things and do things like that. But yeah, it's not to those that are serving with us is really

[00:15:01] important too. Exactly. It's not even sometimes the change that they're having the problem with.

[00:15:06] It's how it was said and how it was communicated to them and when it was. And so once you actually,

[00:15:12] you know what I mean? Without really thinking kind of like you said, and we can, we don't know it's a

[00:15:16] big deal and we just kind of boom and then they're hurt by it. And what do you mean? We didn't

[00:15:21] give enough facts or didn't give a backstory. Maybe sometimes they don't need the backstory,

[00:15:25] but sometimes communicating it really helps them understand where you're going. And so sometimes,

[00:15:31] again, it's not actually the change. It was how it was communicated. That is more of the problem

[00:15:36] sometimes when you back it out than the change. Yeah. How many times have you prepared something to

[00:15:42] where you've put so much work and so much effort into a project or something? And then, and then it's

[00:15:49] like, Oh no, we're going in a different direction. But I put all this work in, in you,

[00:15:53] all the three of us have personal experience. I remember be early on in ministry, being on a

[00:15:58] worship team. And I remember my pastor coming and saying that he wanted me off. He wanted me to,

[00:16:04] um, uh, assist his wife in, in another ministry. And I didn't feel like I, like God didn't tell me to do

[00:16:14] that, but yet he had authority over me. And I remember just having that moment where God said,

[00:16:19] will you submit to this? And I think it was really this testing and it was working in me

[00:16:25] some of these things that like, Oh, can I handle change? Am I going to be able to just submit

[00:16:32] to this thing that maybe I don't even agree with? And I'm, I made the decision in that particular

[00:16:37] situation. Like, okay, God, yeah, I can submit. It goes back to what you were saying,

[00:16:42] Krista, that we constantly need to be praying through this and thinking through like, okay,

[00:16:48] what submission look like in the midst of all these things. And, and, you know, and can I handle this?

[00:16:56] You know what I mean? Am I able to handle this? Maybe share some of your personal stories that you

[00:17:01] guys have dealt with, with change. Well, I know for me in the early years, um, it's kind of

[00:17:07] similar to what you were sharing, Brenda, that it was submission, but it wasn't just about,

[00:17:12] submitting to the leadership I was under at the time. It was also trusting God that he was going

[00:17:17] to allow me to do what I knew I was called to do. And I felt it, but it either wasn't the time

[00:17:24] or it wasn't with that church or it wasn't under that ministry. And so I had to submit to what I was

[00:17:31] being told to do and what I could do and couldn't do. And it was hard. It was really hard. And I was

[00:17:37] asked, do you feel like you should be here or there? I said here. And they said, okay, we're going to put

[00:17:41] you there. And I was like, why did you even ask me? Why have you, where are you going to send me

[00:17:46] somewhere else and do this other thing in ministry? But as you did, I was like, okay, I'll submit,

[00:17:51] I'll serve there. I'll serve wherever I'm needed in my heart. I understood what God was calling me to

[00:17:57] do. And, but I didn't have to fight for it. And in that situation, I realized I trust God in all of

[00:18:03] this. He, I don't need to fight for these positions. I don't need to argue. I don't need

[00:18:09] to do any of this. I will submit and I will trust the Lord. And when it's my, when it's time and that

[00:18:17] he will bring me to where I need to be. And I learned a lot in that position, but it was hard

[00:18:23] and it was uncomfortable because I had to change different ministries. And, um, it wasn't like the

[00:18:31] best fit. And I served there for a few years and God moved me into my heart's desire where my

[00:18:36] giftings are. Um, and that kind of goes down to obedience too, right? Not just maybe obedience

[00:18:42] to the Lord. And really the bigger thing beyond submission and all that is trust. Do you trust God?

[00:18:48] Do you trust God that he is, um, going to handle all of this for you? Yeah. That he's going to take

[00:18:55] care of you when things change, when things move, when you don't understand. Um, that's really the

[00:19:03] underlying of all that I think of all this is, do you trust him? Cause if you do, then the change

[00:19:08] is a little bit easier. It doesn't make it easy, right? But it does make it easier. Cause you've

[00:19:13] already gone through so much. You're like, Oh yeah, he's gotten it. He's gotten me through all these

[00:19:18] other things. Of course he's going to get me through this next thing. And so I, those are just

[00:19:26] one of many experiences where I've had different things, but. You know, I think my experiences are

[00:19:32] along the same, especially first in ministry when you are, we were under someone and we were assistant

[00:19:37] pastor and, uh, and wife. And a lot of the things I was asked to do weren't the things that I probably

[00:19:43] would have wanted to do. But looking back now, again, although they were hard, like Crystal,

[00:19:48] you said, I I'd rather be doing that. And you're just like, okay. And, but looking back change again,

[00:19:54] is always the opportunity to grow and adapt and learn. And looking back now, some of the things I

[00:20:00] was asked to do that I thought were ridiculous and I didn't want to do. I see now how God has worked

[00:20:06] them in my life and taught me through them and used that to teach me something else. And so,

[00:20:10] you know, he doesn't waste any opportunity. And so like you're saying, it's about trust. And, um,

[00:20:17] I, I didn't necessarily trust the person who was making this change into my life, but I trusted God

[00:20:24] and God's bigger than the person that was asking me and nothing was unbiblical or anything like that.

[00:20:29] So, um, you know, I, I learned a big lesson there too. And so I think again, looking at all these

[00:20:35] changes, what, how are we going to grow in this and what is this going to lead me to?

[00:20:39] And don't you think that there's a little bit of a testing, like God does test us. And I think

[00:20:45] sometimes in leadership, you know, what he was preparing all of us for in the future, those lessons

[00:20:52] might've been necessary lessons for us to go through that, that there's a testing to see like, you know,

[00:20:58] how much can I handle? What can he give me? Am I going to obey him when he tells me, go to right,

[00:21:03] go to the left, you know, all these things build that, um, character within us as we go. And so even

[00:21:12] though it might not be like what our perfect scenario was, he was working in us, um, his

[00:21:19] characteristics and his attributes. I think you're absolutely right with that. It is part of the

[00:21:25] testing. And the more we step out and into these uncomfortable places, the more he knows that we

[00:21:32] can do more for him too. And so we're given more responsibility in these things. And, and I've

[00:21:39] seen this in my life at least, and stepping out and using these different opportunities grows into

[00:21:46] more, um, grows into more things. And, but we wouldn't have known that had we not stepped out of

[00:21:53] these comfort zones. We wouldn't have known that if we had a changed in ministry, there hadn't been

[00:21:57] some change somehow in ministry. If we just kind of stayed and did the same thing all the time,

[00:22:01] um, we wouldn't know what we could handle. We wouldn't know what was next. Um, and it does make

[00:22:07] it exciting though. I feel like change makes things super exciting because you just get to keep stepping

[00:22:12] and doors opening and, you know, even some doors closing. And then all of a sudden you're doing

[00:22:18] all these amazing, exciting things, um, that you never thought you would be doing.

[00:22:24] Yeah. I think of two things. One, I think of just scripture that talks about, you know,

[00:22:28] God puts up and takes down. And so we, we have that anchor that like, you know, no one can keep

[00:22:34] us out of a ministry or a place that God wants us to be. Um, and we know that, but then I, I think

[00:22:40] about, um, as leaders now on, on sort of this end of the journey, um, at least for me,

[00:22:47] and I was thinking about this this morning, I was looking back at Jesus and how he prepared

[00:22:52] his leaders for change. And I just started kind of looking through that. And I was thinking,

[00:22:57] you know, if we think about it, Jesus prepared his disciples for his departure.

[00:23:02] I said last week, boy, he was, yeah, he changed was coming. Change was coming. He told them that

[00:23:08] he was going to be killed. That's a huge change. He told them that he was going to give them,

[00:23:12] he promised them the Holy spirit, and that was going to be another change for them. They were

[00:23:16] used to going to him and now they were going to have to just rely on this thing that was going to

[00:23:21] be within them. Um, that would be a huge change that they would, he prepared them for the establishment

[00:23:27] of the early church. And he prepared them for how they were going to change to reach the Gentiles.

[00:23:34] Like I thought about that change and then everything, like he prepared them to serve others by

[00:23:39] washing their feet and giving them that example. Like there's so many ways that he prepared them.

[00:23:44] And I just thought of that from a leadership perspective, like we can prepare people for

[00:23:50] change. It doesn't have to be where we just change our minds, but we can, we can look down

[00:23:56] ahead, look at, okay, where's God going? How can I prepare my team now for the changes that are coming?

[00:24:04] You want to speak into that a little Kelly? Um, I think that's, I do think that's key. I think

[00:24:10] that preparation and taking them along with you, casting a vision of where you're going,

[00:24:15] taking small steps towards it, being consistent and clear in your communication. I think that's all.

[00:24:22] And, um, I think as you walk, they like, sometimes we talked about the sudden change. That's one thing.

[00:24:28] But again, when you see it coming, you know, get, get, get them on board, let them see where they're

[00:24:34] going. And I think, uh, that helps a lot of people settle in and to, to, uh, go. And I think you and I,

[00:24:42] well, we all get to choose our focus on how we do this, right? If change is hard, you and I get to

[00:24:47] choose, am I going to embrace it or I'm going to fight it? And so it's making that conscious choice

[00:24:53] about being intentional about preparing ourselves and our communities and our ministry, um, people

[00:24:59] under us and deciding not to let our ego drive us or, uh, you know, protecting ourselves or promoting

[00:25:07] ourselves, but to let the spirit drive us and teach us. And that takes work sometimes, you know? Um,

[00:25:14] but choose to follow where he leads and let go of the past, you know, and submit to that pruning

[00:25:20] process if that's part of it. And I love, I just keep thinking about the verse, um, after Moses died

[00:25:26] and God puts, uh, Joshua is going to now lead the Israelites. That's a big change, big change for

[00:25:32] Joshua. Now he's going from being number two, right? To number one, that's a big change. And then

[00:25:37] it's a big change for the people to lead. They loved Moses, even though they were angry at him a lot.

[00:25:42] Like this is now a big change too. And in, uh, Joshua one nine, God, you know, says, um, he tells them,

[00:25:50] have I not commanded you be strong and of good courage? Don't be afraid. Don't be dismayed for the

[00:25:56] Lord. Your God is with you wherever you go. And he's saying the same thing to us, whichever

[00:26:01] end we are, right? If we're now the leader or now following someone else or whatever,

[00:26:06] I'm going with you. You don't have to be afraid of this change. I'm going to be there with you.

[00:26:12] So, and even if the change is a mistake, leaders make mistakes. We make mistakes and, but God's still

[00:26:19] going with us and teaching us and getting it through it. So I just, I don't know. I just kept thinking

[00:26:24] of that this morning too. It's so practical. I love that. I've been thinking about those words

[00:26:29] lately. The last few months be bold, be courageous. Don't fear. And, um, cause there's been changes.

[00:26:36] And I, when you, I just read Joshua earlier today to Joshua one nine, I was thinking the same thing.

[00:26:42] I was like, he is with us. So we can step out and do these things. We can change whether,

[00:26:48] whatever the change is and, um, be courageous in it because he's with us wherever we go.

[00:26:55] And it is comforting in that. And I think sometimes that we don't really know that until we've tasted

[00:27:01] and seen that ourselves as, you know, the Bible talks about taste and see that the Lord is good.

[00:27:06] Um, and you, you don't really taste and see without experience. And so to, that comes with change as

[00:27:14] well. Um, you can taste and see the Lord is good and that he is going to be with us and not be

[00:27:23] discouraged with us wherever we're at. And because we've done it before and we've, we know he's there,

[00:27:29] but it does take that first initial step of, of the change and going in and being comfortable with it.

[00:27:35] Um, and that's not just big changes. Like that's, I think often we think about that with big changes,

[00:27:40] but that's in any change too, whether you're switching ministries or maybe stepping down from

[00:27:47] a ministry and doing something else that those are big changes, you know, stepping down from a

[00:27:53] ministry or changing to a different one. Um, that's a big deal and it can be scary as well,

[00:28:00] but knowing that he's there with you is a good way is, you know, you just have to step out and do it

[00:28:07] because the more you do it, the more, you know, that he is there and it's not as scary. He always

[00:28:12] has you. Yeah. I remember when I feel like I'm continually stepping out and doing these scary

[00:28:17] things of change. And, um, it's, and I just remind myself of he is there and I see him in that.

[00:28:25] Sorry, Brenda. No, we were talking. It's, there's just a delay. So it's sometimes I think that,

[00:28:32] that takes care of it. Um, I was just commenting on what you were saying about changing.

[00:28:37] Big ways. And I remember when Ted was going to step out from being an assistant pastor to being

[00:28:43] a senior pastor. And I remember thinking like, I don't want this change. And I remember struggling

[00:28:51] with like, you know, we, we had it good. Like by it, it looked like everything was going well.

[00:28:58] We were doing well. It's like, why do we want to change now? And so sometimes I just want to

[00:29:02] encourage people who are listening. Sometimes the change isn't even something that might excite you.

[00:29:07] Or that you might want to do, but it's, it's where God's directing. And, and so you go. And now

[00:29:13] looking back, I'm like, that was the best change in our whole lives. Like I look at what God did now.

[00:29:20] It makes sense. But at the time, um, it didn't make sense. So some practical things that I thought

[00:29:26] of was be patient. Um, when you're going through change, give it time, champion the change. If it's not

[00:29:33] yours, you know, come alongside and, and be a helper of, of joy in the change. Um, watch and see what God

[00:29:40] does. Um, know that God has it under control. And so there's just some practical things that

[00:29:47] seeking God's guidance. You said it, Krista, being flexible, focusing on what I can control,

[00:29:53] taking small purposeful steps, you know, cultivating gratitude in the midst of change. Okay.

[00:30:00] Everything's changing. It's unknown. What can I be thankful for today? What can I be grateful for

[00:30:05] today? Just some, do you guys think of any other practical things that we could share?

[00:30:11] Well, I think we've talked about, but for sure, praying, um, through all these things, but letting

[00:30:16] go as well. Um, letting go of like your own expectations of where you thought something

[00:30:24] might go, a ministry might go or, um, and just trusting those are, those are important.

[00:30:31] Yep. I think I had all the same ones continue to seek and trust God, be flexible, courageous,

[00:30:37] uh, strategic, intentional, thorough, again, taking small steps. Yeah. So I had the same

[00:30:43] ones pretty much. Yeah. I think just thinking, like you said, praying and thinking through these

[00:30:48] areas of change and, um, and getting counsel too with a team. If you're making a change and

[00:30:55] you're just not sure, but, um, you know, getting a team around you, getting wise counsel, that's

[00:31:00] always good. Yeah. I thought it was interesting. We were talking about it yesterday. Like, do we

[00:31:06] have any recommendations? You know, and all of us were like, no, not really. Um, I did find one book

[00:31:12] on my shelf and it's actually a business book. It's not a Christian book, but it's called switch

[00:31:17] how to change things when change is hard. Um, the authors are Heath and Heath. And I, I, this is one

[00:31:25] of the books I studied in a leadership class that I took. Um, but sometimes you can navigate through

[00:31:31] change. There was another one, uh, but then it was like by an author that I wouldn't recommend.

[00:31:35] So then I was like, I didn't want to say it. Yeah. Canceled. Yeah. I think really quick

[00:31:43] too, if you're, if we're the one making the change and people are talking, if you're the

[00:31:47] one making the change and people are talking to you, have a problem with it or discussing

[00:31:50] it, I think as leaders, we need to learn to listen to their feedback, not be defensive.

[00:31:57] You know, we can be wrong too. And so listening, listening to the feedback, really listening,

[00:32:03] um, to see, cause they might have some nuggets to share that are really worthy. So I think

[00:32:08] listening is really good. Yeah. And I think as leaders, we all have our own shortcomings

[00:32:13] for me. It's probably communication because I know things in my head. I just want to go.

[00:32:18] Yeah. And, and I've already intentionally thought through so much that I'm like, okay,

[00:32:24] I've already thought through all of this. So I have to stop and think, you know, okay,

[00:32:29] wait a minute. I didn't communicate that well. Um, so I liked the stuff about Jesus preparing,

[00:32:34] but what are some of your shortcomings in, in the change that maybe people would identify

[00:32:38] with? Like, Oh, okay. I need to, for me, I need to stop and slow down and bring people

[00:32:43] with me. Sometimes I can get out of, get out ahead of, of people. Yeah. Um, I think for

[00:32:50] me, if I think about it, um, it might be similar as yours, but I think I need to be able to share

[00:32:56] the details more. Maybe it's kind of like what you're saying, Brenda, the communication is

[00:33:00] it's not so much that I'm leaving them behind. I just am not explaining all the details and just

[00:33:07] assuming that they'll plug it in and do it that way. And, but I haven't communicated kind

[00:33:14] of the details that I think need to go into something. And so I think that can be frustrating

[00:33:19] for people that don't maybe think the way I think and can't see the way I see these things for

[00:33:25] like-minded people. We're okay, but nobody, not everybody is like-minded. So I've noticed that

[00:33:31] sometimes I can frustrate, maybe I can cause frustration if I'm not, um, kind of seeing

[00:33:39] like explaining all of it. Cause some people don't like that there's a gray part in there

[00:33:44] and they, and so they need help understanding that I'm not great at explaining the gray areas.

[00:33:50] So, so when we say, Hey, we're over here now, that's not good communication.

[00:33:56] Yeah. Well, for me, I don't really mind, but I've noticed other people are like, Oh, okay.

[00:34:01] Where's that? What are we doing? And how are you getting like, wait, just come on.

[00:34:05] Yeah. Let's go. Because I said so. Like we tell our kids because I said so. Just come.

[00:34:13] Yeah. I think I can get stuck. I try not to get stuck in doing stuff the same way, but because I

[00:34:18] am a routine person, I really have to pay attention to that, pray through that because since routine

[00:34:25] is good, I like that. So, and, um, sometimes I, I don't know about you guys, but I can get defensive

[00:34:33] if there, if someone's challenging where you're at, you know, your vision or where you're telling

[00:34:38] them to go. It like, maybe that's why I thought of saying that about really listening. Cause I really

[00:34:44] have to, um, stop and pray through, listen, don't get defensive. They're going to have good points.

[00:34:49] Just listen. Everybody wants to be heard. Just listen, you know? And so, yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:56] Yeah. Oh, good discussion. I think this, this is, uh, such a helpful thing to be thinking through

[00:35:03] as ministry because we all deal with change. Yeah. Change is inevitable. It's going to come.

[00:35:09] If it hasn't come today, it's coming tomorrow. Yep. So I think that, uh, I think these are good

[00:35:15] conversation starters. So I'm, I'm hopeful that as people are listening to this, that they'll

[00:35:21] open up this conversation with their teams and just go, okay, what do we need to do to prepare

[00:35:26] ourselves for change? So thank you guys so much for having the conversation. Yeah. It's fun until

[00:35:32] next topic. See ya. All right. Bye. Bye.

[00:35:38] Bye. Thank you for joining us today at When She Leads. Our mission is to equip, connect

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