Navigating the Fishbowl Life - Learning to Swim for the Glory of God

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[00:01:27] I think we're going to look at a reality.

[00:01:30] And that is navigating life in the fishbowl.

[00:01:35] And what do I mean by that? That's going to be our lens for today.

[00:01:39] And we are going to be very vulnerable and it's vulnerable for us to share these things because for the most part, we don't.

[00:01:47] We do live our lives on display but we have a desire really for a candid conversation.

[00:01:55] So the fishbowl, well what exactly is it to be in the fishbowl?

[00:02:02] You know, it doesn't always appear to be what it is.

[00:02:05] And so I think about this poor little fish swimming around and everyone on every single side has a front row seat into their life from every angle.

[00:02:15] They can see it from near, from far.

[00:02:18] Anyone can look in and see what you're doing. They can tap on the glass. They can provoke you.

[00:02:24] All these things that they can do are lives in this ministry or on display.

[00:02:30] So what does that mean for us as pastor's wife's ministry leaders?

[00:02:34] What are the blessings of that kind of lifestyle and people always being able to know what's going on in your life and seeing what's going on in your life?

[00:02:43] The pressure of being that example, what are the difficulties? Is it fair? Does it just come with a territory or does God have a bigger plan in his sight?

[00:02:56] So why is it important to navigate this reality well?

[00:02:59] So we hope that through our discussion those that are listening that it would encourage you and we might have a few laughs along the way.

[00:03:07] Yeah, because it can be kind of funny. But I wanted to kind of start out by giving this disclaimer like yes we're going to be honest.

[00:03:15] If this is not the role that you're in, sometimes I don't think that people will maybe not understand what this role is.

[00:03:25] It's really difficult to talk about but in all transparency we know that there are many who feel unworthy, unhappy.

[00:03:35] I've met people who are bitter in this role. They're resentful, maybe even pretending.

[00:03:42] And we want to encourage you today. You are not alone. We understand. We walk in your shoes. So let's just begin by just saying like it's an absolute honor and privilege to be called to such an amazing thing that God has called us to live this life to live up to the world.

[00:04:03] To live our lives out in front of people. So I just wanted to say up front on behalf of all of us like we love God.

[00:04:11] And we love our people to death. That's a good foundation to start with.

[00:04:15] K. Warren calls out a sacred privilege and it really is. And I think what you said if you're listening in today and this isn't the role you play.

[00:04:23] I think it's a great time though to glean how maybe your ministry leader or your pastor's wife or whatever might be feeling and learn some ways to encourage you know her or to handle that.

[00:04:37] And so I think it can be a very helpful conversation but it is, Rathana. I appreciate you saying because for all the hard things we'll talk about. I still and I'm sure you would say the same thing in Rosemary.

[00:04:48] I've never trade the privilege of what God has called us to do that he has counted this worthy to put in this spot or this ministry is an amazing thing and I would never change it no matter how hard it's been.

[00:05:02] I've always said that even when it's hard. So it is a privilege and I think Paul talks about when he's talking to Titus and Timothy that

[00:05:10] And other church leaders to live your life as a pattern for others. And so I think it kind of to a question you asked it kind of comes with the territory.

[00:05:19] Some things are fair and some things are not fair but the general principle is that when you step out in leadership. It is what it is, you know, you're supposed to be a pattern. You're supposed to be modeling behavior and modeling spirituality and modeling what you were teaching them to do that's a form of discipleship so.

[00:05:37] Whether it's fair or not it is what it is now I don't I think some people do something that are unfair in it.

[00:05:44] So right and we do some things in our examples that we shouldn't do everything's out there right our mistakes our failures are I mean sometimes for full aid open like fish and it's like oh yeah.

[00:05:57] I'm sure church has a front row seat to the inner workings of everything about us, our family they get to scrutinize critique watch there's no filters and like you said church members can tap on the glass of the fishbowl you know when they want

[00:06:13] and it can be very challenging you know from what time you get to church you know you're can be criticized for just even that you're always late I mean there's so many you know areas.

[00:06:25] Rosemary why are we having this conversation today?

[00:06:29] Well it's necessary I think by talking about these things I think we're validating some of those feelings that we have when we feel like we're living our life in a fishbowl and just saying yes this is real

[00:06:41] and because this is what it is then we all feel it so that we're not alone in it.

[00:06:46] You know just having that life in a fishbowl where people always see what we're doing and what's going on and they're always paying attention it's pretty it's there's pressure there's a stress and we all deal with it differently.

[00:07:02] I actually I like what we do I love being the pastor's wife I'm not loving it because it's easy but I know this is what we're called to do and I love serving in this way I just know that we're called to do what we do.

[00:07:18] Yeah and I think people they're curious I pulled some pastors wives before I came in here just sent some text out put it up on social media and

[00:07:31] and you know there's there's kind of some common themes like people are curious about your life sometimes people think that they know you know your family because

[00:07:41] because they are hearing our husbands regularly and he's sharing stories that they think they might know but there is also a tendency to

[00:07:52] look at our lives and critique the way that we live in Sunday comes one after another after another so we're grieving or we're going through something really difficult or we do have a failure it's it's just really on display for everyone to see I have this article and I thought that this was so great the way that he

[00:08:15] said this one of the best descriptions I've ever heard of the life of a preacher is that it's like living in a goldfish bowl everyone can look in see what you're doing tap on the class try to provoke a response and there's no hiding not much anyways he says I have lived this life for nearly 20 years I practice marriage in it raised kids in it and tried to find peace in it I have become accustomed to being judged rightly and wrongly

[00:08:44] for everything from how I shop for groceries to my behavior at softball games and he said let me tell you it's tough so what are what are some of those tough things that you guys have dealt with like what what are the difficulties we'll talk about the blessings but what are the difficulties of living

[00:09:06] a life where everybody can see your every move every purchase every thought from every angle in your life you know just the reality is when people have the role of being a pastor and leading a church they are a public figure

[00:09:28] and so I know that people love their pastor they love my husband they appreciate his ministry and it's teaching and you know just different things

[00:09:37] and so I accept that I think this is great we're doing what we're called to do but I think the part that gets really hard is when there's not a lot of understanding for maybe

[00:09:49] you know the many many different roles that my husband and I have you know whether we have or busy with our children or we have difficulties at home with children or just different family situations

[00:10:03] just things that people could say and the things that they could think about you that's what makes us all really hard and the fact too that you just don't have privacy

[00:10:15] you know just the privacy is the part that's hard where you're just always being observed and people are always knowing what or think they know it's going on with you

[00:10:27] that's the part that makes it all hard. The pressures that I guess the expectations that whether they're spoken or unspoken that you know we're there and if you're like a struggle with people pleasing or

[00:10:41] I don't know maybe some people don't care but you know it just puts pressure on and a strain in attention and it can

[00:10:49] I don't know affect your decision making sometimes and so I think there's a lot of pressure there and very challenging.

[00:10:55] True, yeah and you know I mean I would say even more about the pressure but

[00:11:02] I think just the staff about not having that privacy like being able to do things for your family and it's private.

[00:11:12] I have people that ask me you know what what we bought them for Christmas or how much money did I did we spend on this or that just that stuff is really what's difficult.

[00:11:22] I don't feel like I need to answer everybody's questions that they know everything.

[00:11:27] Yeah. So the privacy part is where I struggle being in the fish pool where you know we just need those boundaries and

[00:11:37] and just the understanding I realize that there are people who get confused about the pastures life role and they have a lot of expectations

[00:11:46] but I try to understand where people are at too like just maybe they've had a previous bad experience at a different church or something like this

[00:11:54] and just trying to be gracious on my part as much as I can.

[00:11:58] Yeah.

[00:11:59] But that's hard because words can hurt or attitude can hurt or when they go around and talk about you that can hurt too and so I just realize

[00:12:09] with the role comes hurt and it comes often from people who aren't being gracious or understanding.

[00:12:16] Or the judgment that goes with that you're constantly being judged on everything and no one has either the full story or knows anything.

[00:12:25] I guess that's the part that would not be fair there right to judge you you can't judge them but they all judge everything you say do where park shop you know what they think.

[00:12:35] Yes like someone told me oh you were that two weeks ago.

[00:12:40] Yeah and I'm like did I do pay attention that much and it's like wow that's really interesting.

[00:12:47] Yeah, I didn't even remember what I wore.

[00:12:49] You're like and I didn't even wash it.

[00:12:51] Yeah I thought we had that weird I don't know.

[00:12:54] I wanted to say by me you know I think you guys hit on some good things so privacy I've often said like I want automatic blinds that go down my fish pool

[00:13:02] like yes everyone's in a while people looking in and it's like well why do you put your castle over there and why's your bridge over there and what do you put that plant.

[00:13:10] But with therefore and I think there's a difference between I think we're called to live open lives we all know that and we're very open.

[00:13:19] And and you can come to me anytime you can have access it's not about access it's not even about privacy although sometimes we do need privacy

[00:13:29] I remember when I was grieving my mother's death and I didn't want to come to church I'll be honest that Sunday not because I don't love people and I know that they would love on me.

[00:13:39] I just couldn't handle the volume of like the questions that I just wasn't ready for it.

[00:13:45] Me neither but I think there's a difference between privacy and intrusion.

[00:13:51] Yeah I do think there's a difference between that because sometimes when when you feel intruded like I think you put your hands on the ground.

[00:13:58] I think you pointed out like I do think there are people that we need to be very open like our pastor or other pastors like there's people in my life.

[00:14:07] They need to know what's going on in my life they need to hold me accountable they need to do all this but we're not talking about that like a spiritually healthy you hold me accountable.

[00:14:19] I think we're talking about some of those intrusive things where people feel like they aren't entitled to ask you anything give you any opinion.

[00:14:30] You know what I mean like there's no I guess that's the the part that it doesn't frustrate me I feel like gosh I'm going to let them down.

[00:14:41] Because they're just going to see my shortcomings and my failures and that might disappoint them because maybe they think I'm a lot better at this than I am.

[00:14:50] Yeah you know I'm a sinner saved by grace and if you see me be like my fishbowl like God help you.

[00:14:57] Well I think how I respond is been different over all these years according to what season I'm in you know myself and so sometimes I've always like I'm thankful for the fishbowl in the sense that if I feel like you're on a short leash like it helps you be accountable.

[00:15:13] And so I've always actually valued that but then and I'm in season maybe our family is in a personal crisis or something and the intrusion part I might not handle it in my in myself and my emotions quite as well.

[00:15:27] You know because we're trying sometimes we're trying to hold back the ugly cry that the things that really hurt us are we're having to come to church when we're in like extreme pain right or going through something really really difficult at home.

[00:15:43] And you get in the door and you're expected to put a smile on your face and you can't talk about what I want to say that's that's the thing is that there are a lot of expectations put on our role.

[00:15:55] I think number one we need to be supporting our husbands and being able to be vulnerable that's that's the point we're trying to figure out like when I'm having a really hard time like I'm just going to cry and be a mess it church.

[00:16:10] Am I able to go to church like that am I able to have a place where I can be like that because it's my church too.

[00:16:18] Right and if you like we need to establish a culture where we're able to do that where we're able to have a safe place at church where I can be me I can go ugly cry I can you know walk oh man all the Sundays I've teenagers where I walk in with my kids slamming the doors and.

[00:16:37] I hate you and they run into church and I'm standing there with everybody looking at me.

[00:16:41] And you like it.

[00:16:42] Good morning.

[00:16:43] So we'll get to youth groups.

[00:16:45] Yeah yeah they'll fix you.

[00:16:47] Yeah right.

[00:16:48] I'm telling you tumbling and I feel like this is what we need to really discuss that church should be a safe place for us too that's my church.

[00:16:56] I should be able to maybe you know have some ladies this is what I do honestly fun having a hard time the woman closest to me that I serve with and women's ministry know.

[00:17:07] They know and they pray for me they support me I said I'm just having a hard time they will lift me up they will meet me at the door and sit with me because you know pastors live sit for themselves but you know that's that's what I feel like I try to build around me at church that when I walk in.

[00:17:24] Not everybody even knows who I am but I can be me and I feel like that's what we need to figure out with this fishbowl like I need to not go to church and have my best face I need to go to church and be me and in that I'm being honest and genuine and I want to be a sample to our church that I can be genuine when I need to ugly cry I'm going to ugly cry and have it's not everywhere and it's okay because I want other people to come to our church and feel safe.

[00:17:52] This is a hospital for the sick and you come here and ugly crying will hand you to issue and how you.

[00:17:57] Right and I love that I love that so I feel like all these expectations for the pastor's wife and all that pressure is really really difficult and I don't like it.

[00:18:08] So I try to establish this culture around me and I have a few people I can call and say hey I'm coming in as like a mess today you know and they'll be there for me.

[00:18:20] I have those people too but do you think though even in that there's some boundaries.

[00:18:26] Yeah of what you can share even with those ladies.

[00:18:29] I mean that's I think the part we're talking about it's there's still boundaries.

[00:18:34] Because not everybody needs to know every detail of what's going on that's for a church room.

[00:18:40] But I think there's a point of being able to say I've got a mess I'm hurting.

[00:18:44] I can come in to church and you have those things but there are the people I think we just got to come to like an acceptance that there are the people at the church that will go say oh did you see the pastor's wife crying today oh my goodness what is happening.

[00:19:01] Well let's look at their Facebook and see what's happening or something like this.

[00:19:05] And that stuff I don't be on Facebook there's the answer to that.

[00:19:09] That's going to happen and I'm not going to be able to control that.

[00:19:12] Yeah, I think you bring up a good point Rosemary and I think what you're saying is like we should all be able to come into the body of Christ and and be genuinely who we are.

[00:19:23] And there should be accountability and encouragement and support for everybody who walks into the church including us.

[00:19:33] But I think what we're even talking about today and you pointed it out so well is having the boundaries.

[00:19:39] I think that ladies that are listening that like oh my goodness they're talking about my life like yes I get this I understand this.

[00:19:48] I think what we're talking about is getting having healthy boundary so if someone's coming to you with sin we don't just get to like have a boundary and go well I don't have to listen to you.

[00:20:00] Like those are the things the genuine things of Christ the the genuine tenants of the scripture that we are to live by people call us on that all day long but I think where the boundaries come in is in those areas where you know what I don't think that's true or that seems a little bit outside the scope of maybe what someone can hold me accountable for if someone's telling me my kids eating too many cookies.

[00:20:29] At the table or we've had youth pastors tell our kids you should be better example your your parents or you know your dad's a pastor you should be a better example like I think we need to teach our kids and we can get into our kids next and that will open up.

[00:20:44] All other can but yeah but I think that we need to ourselves do this healthy I think we need to learn what is okay and permissible and what that we can go.

[00:20:56] I think I just need to lay that at the Lord's feet and be kind because what can happen then so we get better resentful and then we might sharply like you know hurt somebody that's in God's church that we don't and we don't ever want to do that we want to be kind and but maybe not pay attention or give attention to some of those things which is hard because we want to defend ourselves we want.

[00:21:23] I you guys we know the stories I've had people come into my house and point out my tile you know or something like a long time ago when we were dirt poor yeah it's like I've seen your house and it's like.

[00:21:36] Really yeah that's the tile my dad had extra on a job and put in you know but you see but you have to you feel like you have to justify everything and I think I've learned over 30 years.

[00:21:46] I actually don't right I need to live for him I need to live genuinely knife you come and say you were you know I saw you doing this or you talk to me rudely or you right you said this and and I didn't appreciate that.

[00:22:01] I was offended all right you will get a pass we'll get a pass right right and I feel like this is another part of it like what do I have.

[00:22:10] I want to be afraid of that people will find out I actually I like what you said before Kelly that the fish will life is almost encouraging you.

[00:22:21] To live your life well for the Lord to shine let his light shine through you and let him get the glory for what happens in your life I feel like I shouldn't have things that I'm ashamed of.

[00:22:35] I think people are going to find out and I and I think that's the part that we have to figure out for ourselves that there shouldn't be things that I'm afraid people will know about me.

[00:22:46] And if it's in my past before I was even saved I mean that silly that's another whole thing but you know what I mean like we live Romans 8 1 that there is no shame for us we're forgiven and I don't think being in the role that we're in that we should have things that we're trying to hide well that.

[00:23:05] Well that's true definitely but I think that more than that even though I appreciate the accountability there's still challenges like.

[00:23:13] I'm not sure I'm not ashamed if I'm going through let's just say a personal crisis or whatever we do you're having marital issues like we're pastors wise we never know when to fight with our husbands.

[00:23:25] I'm not saying that you're not going to fight with your wife.

[00:23:28] Yeah because Friday and Saturday like you're preparing for Sunday and when do that Monday like you're really tired so I'm not going to pick a fight then.

[00:23:35] Right or just like personal something with your kids which I know we'll talk about but again it's their story too so I'm not.

[00:23:44] It's not nobody's business sometimes my own personal things I'm struggling with sometimes it is and I might say hey I'm struggling pray but I mean that's the part that's that can be the pressure.

[00:23:56] That's the pressure of always trying to figure out what you can say what you can't.

[00:24:00] How am I supposed to act in the middle of my own personal crisis and we've had many personal crisis and within our kids or our families or different things and I so.

[00:24:10] It's not that I'm trying to hide yeah I'm kind of an open book I'll tell you anything you want to know too much but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't have some boundaries that.

[00:24:22] You know that I don't cross that line with people that that's my own deal yeah especially if you're this is say you are fighting with your husband.

[00:24:32] He's their pastor he's their pastor and you can have to be so careful what you say because you don't want to remain there pastor in someone's eyes or again your kid messes up it's your kid's story it's not yours to tell.

[00:24:43] It's not their business you know that they don't sadly they live in the fish ball not by choice but by birth and so our job is to protect them part of that from the fish ball life in some senses and so.

[00:24:57] I can't tell my kids the stories in some things and so that's a huge boundary to me and that's the part that I think sometimes quote if you're going to look at fair and unfair.

[00:25:09] You know this the other person who's judging my kids or wants to know my kids is personal stuff I'm not asking them their kids is personal stuff I'm not judging them on their parenting skills you know but sometimes you feel like wait a second look at your own life why are you why you on my kids you know.

[00:25:26] Look at your own kids you're all few kids I'm coming in you know and you know and there's some of the challenges you're right yeah whole thing you know our job is support or husband.

[00:25:36] And so you know I have to think because I am making fun of him sometimes you know I almost just need to make jokes about like his broken legs or something like this just to you know we have things going on that are really hard and I might cry if you ask me too much about.

[00:25:55] My husband and his broken legs or whatever struggle it is but I will make like a joke about it or something.

[00:26:02] And just having having this role of supporting our husband who's their leader their pastor they love him they appreciate him I have to think about what I'm saying is it.

[00:26:12] Good to say what I'm saying is it helpful and you know you go through that Philippians for eight this is this something necessary that I need to say right.

[00:26:23] It's hard it is hard especially with our kids it's really hard this author talks about the the fishbowl encourages hypocrisy that we and when we're always being watched.

[00:26:34] We get to that place where we want to wear a mask and just say everything's okay I'm holding it all together he said however ministers wrestle with self doubt negative thoughts.

[00:26:45] Addictions sometimes even depression and most churches aren't going to touch somebody who is bluntly honest about his struggles with a 10 foot poll and we all know that to be true.

[00:26:58] If if people are too open then you know they can't handle it and so the mask goes on and he even pointed out and we've seen it before and this is a very serious issue.

[00:27:11] We have watched pastors commit suicide we've seen a we've seen the pressure on them we've seen now was that life in the fishbowl some of that came from that from that pressure that people have put on them.

[00:27:26] So I think that you know we do it's a very serious topic that that we're dealing with where you know we're talking about and that's why we want to have this conversation so that we can go how can we helpfully do this because it's not okay just to be a hypocrite but the mask on.

[00:27:43] And just go and we've seen the fallout of that over years and years of just people putting the mask on so that they don't have to deal with the fishbowl and then they fall apart.

[00:27:52] And it's a lot of little decisions along the way.

[00:27:56] Yes, I wanted to say that that is one of the major challenges for living life in a fishbowl is to know who you can actually talk to who are those people that will pray for you love you and support you.

[00:28:11] Those people are hard to find.

[00:28:14] And we can stay constantly with finding the wrong ones.

[00:28:18] Yeah, you kind of wish you could just we would never get up and say this but you kind of wish you could just say hey you know everybody don't judge us we're all messy we're all broken people whether we're.

[00:28:31] Pastors, pastors life or whatever and we need support and nursing and building up and I'm so thankful for the people in our church for all the years the ones who have seen that and loved us along the way and.

[00:28:44] Support of us to care of us especially if our family was in crisis that stepped up to help us that I wouldn't say is the norm it was more exception but still thankful for the ones who have.

[00:28:56] And we have to be able to understand that there's a different kind of stress and things you're very grateful for those people but.

[00:29:03] I yeah, it's you know.

[00:29:05] It's a tricky I think it's a tricky thing because if you think about a fishbowl it's kind of somebody living in captivity.

[00:29:14] Right.

[00:29:16] Yeah, I don't know if you know that doesn't help me.

[00:29:21] But but it's true like I don't know are you you know I remember when we went and got this little puppy and our little puppy was out the pet store and he was looking through the glass like can you get me out of here.

[00:29:33] I think I think that we deal with that like there are times when we want to quit or we want to run or we want to escape or we want to hide what is that we want to get out of the fishbowl.

[00:29:45] It's hard even for days like you said have a good.

[00:29:49] You're not even out of fishbowl fish exactly because we're called to be fish.

[00:29:54] Yes, you're called to be fish but you know this is but this is the other thing is it's so like I said just finding those safe people the supportive people is hard but also it's a lonely place to be usually like one little goldfish in there all of them.

[00:30:10] What's that kind of fish that has to be alone but don't you beta yeah families that beta family I don't know being alone sometimes I know something.

[00:30:21] Yeah, I think I think so what what happens though is I think that pastors and their wives they do.

[00:30:28] Sometimes and I know this is going to ring true with at least one person who's listening.

[00:30:33] That you feel trapped you can get to the point where it's so much pressure.

[00:30:38] And so many people are looking in that you can begin to feel trapped and I think that that's when we see ministers quit I think they fall there's been studies done that like sometimes and I think it's true and even adultery where they're just trying to get out.

[00:30:54] And so they're looking for desperate ways to get out because they don't want to just stand up and go hey I quit I'm tired.

[00:31:01] Yeah, yeah that's hard.

[00:31:04] Find help them find solutions.

[00:31:07] I remember one time telling Brian probably not good to admit he's talking about being vulnerable but years ago is a bad season and I remember crying and I would just say I'm done.

[00:31:17] I'm just done and I'm crying and he's you know just listening but you're not quite in finding he's like you're done with what.

[00:31:26] I don't know.

[00:31:27] You're just your family.

[00:31:28] You're true.

[00:31:29] It just feels good to say it.

[00:31:31] I'm done.

[00:31:32] And I was fine but you just had moments where you're just like I can't do this anymore, you know.

[00:31:37] But that's everybody's life.

[00:31:38] I don't know if that specific just the pastors.

[00:31:40] I mean it's very challenging but doesn't everybody have that moment in life.

[00:31:44] Yeah.

[00:31:45] I'm just done.

[00:31:46] Yeah.

[00:31:47] Because the pressure's real.

[00:31:48] Yeah, but it was funny Brian's like what?

[00:31:50] What are you done with?

[00:31:51] What are you talking about?

[00:31:52] What does that mean?

[00:31:53] You need to spell it out.

[00:31:54] There you go and no.

[00:31:55] No, I just want to say it.

[00:31:57] Do you think there's a sense that we're building a healthy culture around this idea of the fishbowl because I do think maybe some churches navigated better than other churches.

[00:32:08] Like I feel because I feel like there can be really toxic fishbowl situations where everybody in the church is able to criticize the elders maybe aren't backing up.

[00:32:24] The pastor and his family, not protecting him, not providing him with adequate rest and privacy to deal with his family.

[00:32:33] I do think there can be toxic cultures within this topic and then healthy cultures.

[00:32:40] So what are some things that we can do to like maybe provide that more healthy culture versus having this like toxic idea of this fishbowl?

[00:32:51] Sometimes it goes the other way too before we get to that like you have that one where everyone can cheat you and then you have the pastor and his family who no one's allowed to almost talk to.

[00:32:59] Right.

[00:33:00] A lot of other bigger churches.

[00:33:01] Maybe not even that.

[00:33:02] But their leadership protects them from everything and so I mean, I've maybe just swing of a pendulum like I think that's going to happen.

[00:33:10] So then now there's no vulnerability, you know, it's just like they're the rockstar kind of thing and you think that doesn't happen but it does and so you have these two toxic unhealthy so.

[00:33:21] Do they have bancers? Is that unhealthy?

[00:33:25] I'm just kidding.

[00:33:26] I know a church that does so whatever.

[00:33:28] I've seen it though before.

[00:33:30] Yeah. Oh yeah.

[00:33:31] Now I think you're right.

[00:33:32] So what's the middle first?

[00:33:35] The husband and wife really need to lay out their what they want.

[00:33:41] The wife, I think it's really important that she knows her place.

[00:33:46] She finds her role in ministry like where she wants to serve who she wants to be how much she wants to be involved at the church.

[00:33:54] I think that really needs to be discussed between the husband and wife.

[00:33:57] The pastor and his wife because it might be different seasons for the wife of when she can be involved or what she wants to be doing at the church.

[00:34:06] That's super important.

[00:34:08] And I think yes, but now you're super right that the elders need their part of their job and they're making their supporting the pastor too helping him do his job well.

[00:34:18] Kind of tending to that fishball.

[00:34:20] Like who's going to what are the elements that they're going to provide so that the fish can swim, they can eat, they can you know what I mean like what is that look like what is that healthy environment.

[00:34:33] Right.

[00:34:34] Look like so that it doesn't get you know overgrown or nasty or it's not filtered right.

[00:34:40] I'm using the you know obviously the visual analogy, but I think there's something to it that we have to have those good practices the spiritual disciplines in place so that we can handle the attacks of the enemy.

[00:34:54] You know putting on the full armor of God being spiritually healthy is a good thing that would provide good culture for that talking.

[00:35:02] Having a rest.

[00:35:04] Absolutely have the risk of learning to say no learning to really think through this idea instead of just reacting to this fishball life really thinking through what's healthy, what's not healthy.

[00:35:17] What does God say I need to react to what is God say I don't need to react to talking about it with your your leadership and this is how it can be helpful for us.

[00:35:29] I know that we've put some things in places that you know that are staff, our administrator, our elders like they're very aware of us and moving through because I were talking about this because sometimes people can think oh well that's just like.

[00:35:44] You know guys that want to be celebrities and we we've all seen men and women who desire to be celebrities in the ministry but there's also just people doing work and they don't necessarily want to be on the stage.

[00:35:58] But they're called to be there and people put that expectation on you or people start treating you different.

[00:36:06] And we've all talked about that the loneliness as a pastor's wife, you know when people owe the pastors wife's here everybody be quiet in the group, you know.

[00:36:14] We we've understood the rejection and and all the things that come to that but I do think there's some healthy things that we can do to protect us from.

[00:36:26] Wanting to quit money and even to the point of depression or suicide or trying to get out before it's too late.

[00:36:35] Right.

[00:36:37] And I really think that that discussion with the husband needs to happen first on what her role will be how much her involvement will be.

[00:36:48] And what the boundaries are your family boundaries as well.

[00:36:52] Good yeah and and you know I pulled out the verse of first Timothy 311 there's this one little verse that gives instruction for a wife, why is it to the woman worthy of respect not malicious talkers but temperate interests were the and everything.

[00:37:09] There's not a lot of instruction given or description of the pastor's wife but that's it her conduct and her maturity are important.

[00:37:17] And and that's you know our role we're highly visible and we we can be as involved or not if the church as we want to be.

[00:37:28] But that that is I think just the hardest one of the hardest part is that the role doesn't have a lot of definition in the Bible right so how do you parent in the fish ball.

[00:37:43] I'm not the castle.

[00:37:45] I'm not the castle.

[00:37:46] Just what it wrote to me.

[00:37:48] What I didn't know what you said.

[00:37:50] I'm sorry.

[00:37:52] I'm laughing.

[00:37:53] I made a joke.

[00:37:54] I said I try to sit on top of my baby fish and hide them.

[00:37:57] Yeah.

[00:37:58] Seriously well, I think because it's one thing when the church or whoever is judging us and everything we do.

[00:38:06] When they start doing it to our children, that's that's even harder I think to navigate because we understand it.

[00:38:14] We're hopefully mature enough to deal with it.

[00:38:16] We've chosen this life in that respect and then here come our children and our children or children.

[00:38:21] They go through their own seasons and processes and done behavior and sinful things and I think part of our role is protecting them from the people in the church who are trying to compare them or.

[00:38:35] I think it's really important we had one situation in ours that one lady took it upon herself to go to my daughter she's in high school and just just railed her and.

[00:38:47] On some things and tried to I guess pretty much critique her and the ladies own family wasn't in order so of course my daughter comes home and she's like what the heck wasn't she to get her own kids why she talking to me and it wasn't like a good friend of that would feel that.

[00:39:03] She should have that right you know she could have me said I've thought about this with your kid or whatever and.

[00:39:11] I just think that protection is even harder to do I think that it's their our kids need to be allowed to have their own personal struggles and crisis is in all that without the church having to know everything about them.

[00:39:28] Right.

[00:39:29] Yeah, I think some of the things we could do is number one, we always tried to teach our children through the ministry like the reason that you know people continue to ask you questions about your parents like my daughter our kids are grown now.

[00:39:45] But my daughter said she's even still a little bit shy about even getting her own friends because she goes inevitably the questions come you know about you guys they want to know about you guys and so she's even even guarded I think in her adult life.

[00:40:05] Just with or information that she might know people try to come to her and get information you know inside information or I don't know just ask questions are curious.

[00:40:15] Yes, again, people are curious but I think when our kids were little just spending time teaching teaching things about God and how God works in this whole pattern that this is the role that God's called us to.

[00:40:29] And and how to navigate that healthy and maybe sharing with your kids some predetermined statements that they could say we would give them like, oh hey like if someone's going to come to you and they're yelling at you or something.

[00:40:44] You know don't do that or you should you're criticizing them maybe they could say something like oh you know what my mom would really love for you to talk to her about this or you know what I mean like maybe we could give them some some things they could say.

[00:40:58] I don't know what do you do Rosemary.

[00:41:02] Yeah, I do I think that's so important that's so good what you said Brenda and with our children we just do a lot of explaining.

[00:41:12] We we walk through it walk them through scenarios like what if someone catches you coming out of the bathroom stall kind of pinning you against the this is actually happening.

[00:41:23] Pinning you against the bathroom wall you know peppering you with questions about your dad.

[00:41:29] Right and you know that's very awkward and I feel like yes that that actually happens and I have to prepare my children for what to say how to say it and how to treat people that might treat them that way.

[00:41:42] And I told them just you know just because they're an adult you do not have to answer all those questions.

[00:41:48] If you're uncomfortable you get out of there you just excuse yourself and get out of there.

[00:41:53] Yeah, you know and that's that's what I do is I give my children like I say this is what you say like people say what kind of grades do you get at school and my kids look at them like what.

[00:42:05] And they tell me I don't even know what to say when they ask me that and I'm surprised that they're being asked that and I say you should never answer those questions.

[00:42:13] You just say I'm a great student and you walk away.

[00:42:16] I give them examples of how to behave in whatever situations and what what they could say that would be still respectful and honoring you know to God and so this is how we.

[00:42:30] You know work with our children but we also let them know that the expectation for our family is that you are this is your church you are to come and attend your church.

[00:42:41] Join in, this is your church so you should serve here where are you happy to serve at this church and I let them choose those roles as they grow up.

[00:42:51] I'm trying not to define the pastors kid role for my kids.

[00:42:55] I let them know that this is their dad's calling or ministry and we get a front seat view of what the Lord is doing.

[00:43:03] My children have so many privileges with their dad's role as a pastor just they they love what what he does they love sitting in the pews and listening to him and so there's a lot of joy and privilege too that comes with their role.

[00:43:18] Yeah and I think that's good to point out because it's not only like oh these poor pastor kids because you know pastors kids stereo typically have you know the reputation of being the bad kids in the church and it becomes from some of this criticism.

[00:43:33] But they also really love ministry and now as grandparents we're starting to see it in our grandkids that they want to be here they want to be serving they want to be part of the church.

[00:43:45] But it does come with those pressures and I think our mama bears kind of claws come out when people are critiquing our children so how have you and Brian handled it.

[00:43:56] Kelly when when your kids are little.

[00:43:58] Well the same as Rosemary said it's really never been about you're the pastor kid you're about you know your child of God is kind of where you go with it and trying to.

[00:44:09] And then the mother of the relationship that's about knowing Jesus not just acting a certain way.

[00:44:15] Trying to again make them understand their identities in Christ we almost never used the phrase hey your pastor kid we just didn't do that.

[00:44:25] We because that just I already have expectations why am I placing them on that right you're you're this is what the Lord was showing you you know you scripture and stuff but we didn't do that but we did try to protect them in that sense.

[00:44:41] I think in our homes making sure that that tension that comes from the expectations and the things that we deal with didn't don't infect our homes at our home is still a place of joy.

[00:44:52] And fun and laughter and love and not just.

[00:44:57] And I think sometimes we were good at this and sometimes we failed at it depending on what was happening you can talk about stuff that's going on at church at home and we think kids don't hear but they do.

[00:45:07] I think that they don't hear everything they do and they don't need to hear a lot of it or say this person said something bad to you and your her and your telling your husband.

[00:45:17] And that just colored that person you know that person and there I so we just need to be really careful but keeping that.

[00:45:24] Good atmosphere in our home was really important to us and.

[00:45:29] I think it was a learning balance you know.

[00:45:34] I think where's we said this sometime like the best thing you can do for your family is build a good church the best thing you can do for your church is build a good family and.

[00:45:45] He said it and I really do agree with this we always use to teach everybody teaches at God first family you know family next other people like this and we see it more as linear God is first.

[00:45:58] In our ministry God is first in our family God is first everywhere and sometimes.

[00:46:03] Brian had to put church above family if there was a specific need and sometimes Brian had to put the family in front of church because of a specific need specific need and so I don't think it always I think passers always sometimes.

[00:46:19] Get off into church comes first and then family you know but I just think they need to be sent to the Holy Spirit making sure your kids know that you they're loved and you know they don't come last and all that I don't know it was the balance.

[00:46:33] The balance I'm not for the whole time you know but.

[00:46:36] I do know like when we would go to family camp I was in charge of family camp for years and so I ran it and anywhere you know if you guys are there in your husband any problems that you and a counseling.

[00:46:47] Family family have problems that you and so a lot of times that family camp whenever one else is with their families our kids are kind of.

[00:46:55] Farmed out because we're dealing with an issue we're a counseling issue and we would always tell our kids hey this week is almost like they're having fun but it's almost like a working week for us next week the four of us are going away alone.

[00:47:08] And so making sure that we had those times you know and preparing them for that so.

[00:47:14] And it's the same principles of just anybody in any family like okay you know we're we're 11 more children of God were we're going to behave in that way but.

[00:47:27] But they still get the pressure they still get people you you guys know you go into the sanctuary people are watching.

[00:47:34] They're they're watching our husbands are watching us they're watching our children why because they want to see the pattern they want to see.

[00:47:41] Will how are they doing it yeah and so I think that's where not all that.

[00:47:46] I mean sometimes they just want hope that right somebody's doing it right.

[00:47:51] I don't know.

[00:47:53] So encouragement and courage.

[00:47:55] Yeah, yeah and so it's not always with a bad motive that just comes with it.

[00:48:00] Yeah, any final thoughts before we wrap this up.

[00:48:04] I loved what she said Kelly that I learned that church needs to be a happy place for our children that we are to teach them that and let it be that that I I understand what you're saying that like sometimes you have these conversations with your husband that they might hear.

[00:48:23] And I just always try to keep in mind that I want my kids to have the best and most positive experience with church that they would love going there and being a part of what God is doing.

[00:48:36] Yeah, and I think yeah just we've said a lot but I love that we've gotten to hash this one out.

[00:48:42] Yeah, then encouraging.

[00:48:44] I think one last thing too I think some kids this bothers some kids and not others kids some kids don't want their dad to talk about them from the pulpit.

[00:48:52] But some kids are more private than others and I've heard kids I like yeah, I don't care and I've heard other kids that it has scarred because people then take what they say and talk to them about I have one friend that he has they have little kids and.

[00:49:08] He obviously uses them in examples I guess everybody does but if someone comes up and says hey you're dad talked about you today they get a dollar they get a dollar every time someone comes up and says that which is.

[00:49:19] It's terrible to me.

[00:49:21] And that would be a 20 I know right that's not that was funny and the two of his kids could care less and the one who's a probably junior high is she does not want to be talked about and so you got to know your kids in that too and be careful with example that you use and things like that.

[00:49:36] So sure.

[00:49:37] I'm sure.

[00:49:38] This has been really a great talk and.

[00:49:43] I'll just end with this.

[00:49:44] Titus two seven said in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds with purity in doctrine and dignified so.

[00:49:52] I my hope for this is that people not only feeling courage not only feel alone but there are people you can talk to.

[00:50:01] If you're struggling in this and and think about through healthy ways to navigate this to the glory of God and that's what we've been talking about today.

[00:50:10] It's navigating this life through the glory of God so thanks for joining us today and we want to invite you to visit when she leads.org to find out about all that's happening in this ministry.

[00:50:21] We have cohorts that meet we're doing several conferences.

[00:50:25] Portugal Spain is coming up in June I'm going to be in Hungary and England and July and exciting things to check out on when she leads.org.

[00:50:34] So we will see you next time.

[00:50:37] Bye.