The Problem with Perfectionism

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[00:00:12] Matthew 23 and just tells them what hypocrites they are and how they are like white wash tombs with dead manned bones and he's saying outwardly you're trying to be perfect but you miss out on the whole point that your heart is what God cares about and I believe that

[00:00:31] in Jesus saying this it's okay to be called higher. It's not the outward that God cares about but about your heart and your motives and you know why you do things, how you do things and that

[00:00:45] you represent his love and mercy towards one another which you know I think is isn't even higher calling don't just look right on the outside but have the right heart and motive behind what you do.

[00:00:58] So today we have a great topic, the problem with perfectionism are you guys perfect of nobody want to be. I'm joined by team members Kelly Bell and Rose Marie Katie today my perfect friend yes I'm a recovering perfectionist. Perfectionism what do we have to say about it

[00:01:24] perfectionist has excessively high personal standards and overly critical self evaluation when do you guys agree with that? Yes that is by definition this is the self critic you don't need anyone telling you all your flaws because you have identified and played them over in a loop in

[00:01:45] your head already and my personal opinion is that these individuals feel that they are very far from being perfect and so what do we do? What do we do with this? What does the Bible have to say?

[00:01:59] Does the Bible instruct in this and we know that it does because it instructs us in everything and how can we allow grace in our own lives and those in others life so let's talk about it.

[00:02:12] Yeah and the reason we're talking about this is because this is a big topic there is a lot of pressure upon us as women, upon us as people, and upon us as leaders to be you know quote quote perfect

[00:02:27] and you know there's a lot of pressure to do things right and we see things all over the place there's so much information out there on social media, on the internet everywhere where people show

[00:02:41] you how to eat right, how to dress, how to decorate your house, how to entertain, how to raise your kids. All the things your kids should do and you just see what's going on in everybody else's life

[00:02:52] and there's just a ton of pressure. I feel like this pressure has really affected our mental house in our well-being and the way that we do things where we just struggle trying to do all these

[00:03:06] things that we think we should be doing, we feel overwhelmed, we feel anxious, depressive, we struggle. Yeah, especially two I think with the images like the visual images that we have just constantly at our fingertips now and I feel like we all have this image in

[00:03:25] our head of what a Christian should act like or being a mom or being a wife or being a pastor's wife for a ministry leader, a Bible teacher we have these like standards in our head of like what kind of

[00:03:37] example we've been taught like what kind of examples should you be and so we have this image of how we're supposed to be and is that realistic? Is that a realistic image? Yeah, you know it's so funny

[00:03:50] because social media definitely makes it worse but it's something that I think we have struggle with since the beginning of time but there's kind of two kinds too. There's self-orientated perfectionism where you impose these unrealistic expectations and goals and desires should be

[00:04:08] perfect on yourself but then there's others orientated perfectionism which you impose unrealistic expectations and standards of perfection on others and it's I think it's interesting too because you can be a joke in the beginning that I'm a recovering perfectionist but it is actually true

[00:04:27] but it can be in particular areas like if you went into my home you wouldn't think I was perfectionist by how clean I am or anything like that but it mine is more achievement probably

[00:04:40] driven you know goals and things like that and so it's just it's just interesting and there's such a fine line between perfectionism and just being achieving and wanting to do well for the

[00:04:57] Lord you know and having the standard of excellence that that doesn't mean that's bad but when you're motive and all that turns to I guess self-focused and needing to be perfect in all that then

[00:05:10] you've crossed this line over so it's a kind of a hard line to walk sometimes wanting to be the best for the Lord in that sense and and having the standard of excellence and wanting to

[00:05:22] glorify him yet crossing that line into perfectionism I think it's a final line and we're driven I think perfectionists are driven by a fear failure too and this internal pressure and a desire

[00:05:36] to avoid a failure in judgment and often when we are perfectionist we tend to find fault in everything and we're very critical because we measure everything and everybody with that standard I guess that we look at ourselves it can lead to compulsive behavior constantly seeking reassurance

[00:05:57] and validation and others approval you know if if that feeds us and I don't know can call this comparison I read a quote this week and it said someone with a perfectionism attitude

[00:06:12] it's like an endless report card based on accomplishment and I lived that for many years and it's it's taxing and tiring and simple and simple really yeah I think why would you say sinful

[00:06:29] because I feel like it when it becomes that my focus now is on myself being perfect and we already know where no eyes are on ourselves it's wrong and I think scripture is so clear on

[00:06:42] I don't know I guess it flies in the face of Jesus coming because we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God right we we all are not perfect and his grace is sufficient for us because

[00:06:55] we are weak and he is strong right Paul says he has not attained but he presses on and James talks about we all stumble in many things it's not a realistic goal to be perfect and we aren't supposed

[00:07:09] to be we wouldn't need Jesus if we were perfect he is the only perfect one and so in our imperfections as when we learn to depend on him and trust him and seek him for that strength and the grace

[00:07:21] that you talked about originally and we you know we are created four good works but we were not saved because of our good works and so when we are just always just goal and driven like that

[00:07:36] if it's for seeking approval we're supposed to be seeking God's approval not people so that's what I mean by sinful I feel like it just flies in the face really of

[00:07:45] dependence on Christ I think it depends on your motivation too yeah where I think where it stems from because I feel like you know we all want to be good examples like yes we we come to the Lord

[00:07:59] we want to do well we want to be a right representation of him and so but there's like the topic we're talking about goes beyond that though it puts the pressure on us there's a lot of self

[00:08:10] pressure so I think it depends on like well what's if the core of the perfectionism and is it sinful yes it could be like if it if it stems from like a legalistic you know kind of core

[00:08:23] or is it stemming from like a self righteousness kind of a core like I think there's no even insecurities can lead to being in perfectionism really because you're trying to combat the insecurities

[00:08:34] that you have by pressing for achieving so I think that there are some things I think it could definitely lead to yeah it's like an spiritual bondage it can be a bondage yeah yeah so those are

[00:08:47] I think when we lose like kind of sight of the cross and sight of the cross in our sanctification I think that's when we could get into trouble I was reading these verses earlier today in Galatians

[00:09:02] three it's two through five it says let me ask you this one question did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not you received the spirit because you believe the message

[00:09:13] that you had heard about Christ how foolish can you be after starting your Christian lives in the spirit why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? I ask you again does God

[00:09:25] give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law of course not it is because you believe the message that you heard about Christ I mean yeah and you know another

[00:09:39] thing we're talking about how it's bad for us spiritually to strive for perfectionism and you know when we strive to be perfect it can make us so dysfunctional as just human beings and especially as leaders when we're leaders and being dysfunctional just makes the whole thing

[00:09:58] start to fall apart you can really have this striving for perfectionism and it can mess with your sleep and you can stay up at night just worrying and going over what could be the next day or

[00:10:13] what should have been that day or how this or that can go you can get in Somnia you can create anxiety within you just a constant worry about how things are going and also it can mess with

[00:10:27] everything just the way you feel the way you sleep and even the way you eat it can create eating disorders as you just strive to be perfect and I just see that as when a leader starts to become

[00:10:39] dysfunctional that there's just going to be real problems in your ministry and in your lives and in your home with your family perfectionism can cause or like be the root of obsessive compulsive behavior like you talked about and my personally one was eating disorders. I think my insecurities

[00:10:57] lead me to that that's a long story I'm talking about but then when you're in it you feel that you can never be skinny enough, cute enough this enough this enough and so

[00:11:07] you're just always striving to be perfect and you can't and so it's just this battle that just continues on so it can left unchecked perfectionism if it crosses that line into some kind of

[00:11:21] disorder or again a spiritual bondage it can really manifest itself in all the ways Rosemary that you said and so to me it's almost like a continual self-examination with that I have to do because I know my tendency okay am I trying to get these 30 things done

[00:11:38] today so that I feel good about myself that I could check it off or because this is what I feel God has for me today and who does it affect does anybody else care that I did 40 things today?

[00:11:50] No they don't so I have a lot of I'm always quite impressed at how much I do well I thank you but I mean I'm always having that's just my personal anyways but I'm always having to check my

[00:12:01] motive and check my heart and self-examined and I have gotten way better as I've got older because I've learned a lot of lessons pitfalls things like that and how to recognize it in myself

[00:12:14] and the effect that it has on me you know just like any of your natural tendencies once you're aware of them that's the first thing recognize it own it and then set up boundaries and things that

[00:12:26] to do so a lot of speaking the truth to myself that was a big thing with eating disorder speaking the truth deciding not to believe the lie that this matters that God wants me to be like this

[00:12:37] but speaking truth over myself I still have to do that quite often it seems like a lot of unrealistic expectations like you just have these such high expectations that nobody could ever yeah hit and so then

[00:12:53] when you don't hit them then that self-critic comes in the enemy comes in and condemns you and makes you feel bad and I was looking at a scripture in Matthew five and just the the

[00:13:05] scripture that says you know be perfect as your Heavenly Father's perfect and so we take a walk with that we're like okay what does that what does that mean it's what's the perfect Bible just told us to

[00:13:15] be perfect right yeah exactly like be perfect as Jesus is perfect and you're like okay minute I can't do that I'm already gonna fail but we have to realize obviously that in the Bible

[00:13:27] that word perfect means complete and whole fully developed yeah I have more to say on that that was just something so striking we learned about sermon on the mountain or women's ministry and just that's something that really trips people up when Jesus says that in Matthew 548 be perfect

[00:13:47] and you know we just know that we can't be but just looking back at the big picture he's also just addressing this mentality where you had Pharisees who were outwardly trying to be perfect

[00:14:02] like follow the law perfectly look right on the outside and then Jesus calls them on all of this in Matthew 23 and just tells them what hypocrites they are and how they are like like white

[00:14:17] wash tombs with dead man's bones and he's saying like outwardly you're trying to be perfect but you miss out on the whole point that your heart is what God cares about and I believe

[00:14:28] that in Jesus saying this it's okay to be called higher that it's not the outward that God cares about but about your heart and your motives and you know why you do things how you do things and that

[00:14:42] you represent his love and mercy towards one another which you know I think is isn't even higher calling don't just look right on the outside but have the right heart and motive behind what you do

[00:14:55] I think that goes right along with our topic yeah and I think the Pharisees you know they were interested in what they were doing and they missed the point about that it it's not based on

[00:15:06] their own perfectionist merit but it's based on the atonement and grace of Jesus Christ yes that it's not on what we do it's on what he has done and when we get that teaching right in our

[00:15:16] head then that makes those actions a lot more doable in that perfectionism seem like you can take a back seat because it's like I'm never going to be perfect but I can be whole and complete

[00:15:28] and fully developed because of Jesus's grace and atonement and the things that he's done for me that's what makes me whole not my not my achievement or you know I think perfectionists to say

[00:15:42] that we believe in like we would all say that we believe in unconditional love but a true perfectionist that has crossed the line into that says it but really doesn't because you still feel

[00:15:54] that God number one and those in your life only love you and you only have worth based on what you've done and if you're pleasing God and if you're pleasing them and so it's not unconditional love that you're even preaching it's again action based or achievement based

[00:16:12] and it's so backwards then what I think the Bible says but yeah it's a crazy and you know in itself wanting to achieve things and do well is not a bad thing though and I think it's just

[00:16:28] the point that you carry it to your motive and when it just makes you dysfunctional it becomes the problem and always aligned yes and when you know you're doing it to be a people pleaser

[00:16:43] and then you just do it out of fear you know fear of making mistakes fear of being judged those things make it unhealthy so it's okay to strive for doing things well like I'm gonna practice this

[00:16:57] like my music more because I want to do it really well like that's all really great but it's okay to be driven it's okay to work hard but then it becomes a problem too when you just don't cope

[00:17:10] well with it yeah when you when you do have a failure and you punish yourself yeah that that all creates big problems because of perfectionist really struggles with failures or mistakes

[00:17:24] and maybe they just quit they'd rather not even try they don't even want to try they don't start things and I think this is a big problem something we I've recently learned from my husband about the way

[00:17:37] young men really struggle with life is that with perfectionism like our son you know I'm looking at our sons and young men is that they're afraid to try things for fear of messing up

[00:17:49] so it's messing with us this whole idea of perfectionism where some people don't even want to start and where we have a like a tendency to want to just quit if we make a mistake like fine I just

[00:18:03] won't do this at all and we can't handle these mistakes that we make it's called the all or nothing mentality yeah I think it's that classic it's the classic like the kid that says okay we're

[00:18:17] going to take you to piano lessons like no I don't want to go to piano lessons I don't want to go I don't want to go why because I don't know how to play the piano you know and I mean like

[00:18:25] you always you want to like be a master at something that you well you should have no how to play piano yet you know that's why you go to lessons right but we want to be achieved at

[00:18:37] that thing already or accomplish yeah you don't want to play a game unless you know you're gonna win or that you can win or anything when my son was in kindergarten he's old now but I

[00:18:46] still remember the kindergarten teacher you had like a you know we have to go talk to the teacher and she says he's such a good student blah blah but he gets really like if he colors out of the

[00:18:56] lines he takes his crayon Amy checks it across all that's like oh my gosh I've created a perfectionist no he gets it from me yeah sorry I did but yeah he said he said it do it that too

[00:19:10] and there's a young woman I talk a lot with and you know she's in this in Gen Z or she is Gen Z and so you know it's interesting to talk to someone who grew up in a different generation

[00:19:22] and just her point of view on this was that she said that we are always exposed to something better or more perfect to compare ourselves to she said it just kills your confidence it kills your

[00:19:34] ability to really you know just trust you know you can pray and ask God trust yourself that you can hear from the Lord about what to do or how to do things and to lead your life because there's all

[00:19:46] this outside pressure and I thought that was really interesting you know just we were talking about problems with perfectionists and and I just I feel sorry because I do I hear what you're saying

[00:19:59] Kelly and I watch some people around me who I know struggle with these things and it's hard to watch because they don't cope well with the mistakes or with a hard day of bad day or someone doing

[00:20:14] it better than you it's very difficult for them and they don't cope well it's hard to see because a lot of times they punish themselves like you talked about your eating disorder Kelly some people

[00:20:24] turn to drugs alcohol different things to cope with those bad feelings and that's why I think this topic is so important that we discuss this that there are better ways to cope there are

[00:20:37] better ways to come out of this than turning to those kinds of things that destroy your life. I think too not only does it affect us but as leaders I think being a perfectionist makes us

[00:20:49] hard to live with it makes us hard to be with that makes us hard to work with and it makes it hard to work for us when someone's a true perfectionist because you always feel like you're walking

[00:21:01] on eggshells with them and you can never attain right you never do enough or you're never good enough if you're only hearing that criticism and so it makes it difficult as a leader to lead everyone under you and your expectations on them I think that's pretty difficult.

[00:21:22] That is really difficult it makes it hard for people to work with you there's so much pressure and you know another thing that comes along with people who are perfectionist

[00:21:33] is that they procrastinate there's that fear of starting because they might mess it up or not do it well. So what are some helpful coping mechanisms or what would you say to the perfectionist

[00:21:46] the world that are happening in and saying yes I need help what can I do? I mean would it be lowering your expectations or having God-sized expectations like going to the word I think and

[00:21:58] seeing what does the word say about this and about who I'm to be in. Because I feel like I'm to be a reflector of Jesus Christ and so when I get that in my head then that's easier for me

[00:22:14] to make them mistakes like I'm human like make the mistakes like try something even if I'm not good at it take a risk even if it might be 50 percent you know the first time around or something

[00:22:26] like like what are some some other things that people who really struggle with this what what can they do? I think some practical things like well first you said obviously stay in the

[00:22:35] word keep asking I want the mind of Christ because to be able to see it recognize it but I think setting um more realistic goals smaller goals and doable goals like in a practical sense so that they are actually attainable because perfectionism's goals are usually way high

[00:22:56] and so I think that's good broad and irrespective on what matters like I've had to do that a lot in my talking to myself what really matters the words as Seaky first the kingdom of God the word says

[00:23:09] to set my mind on things above okay what really matters for in the big picture and the small picture I think celebrating progress a lot of time perfectionists don't stop and celebrate let's say if they

[00:23:21] made their goal they just blow past it because they're on to the next one so taking time to celebrate give God glory reminding yourself not to have extremes that see they're all or nothing right

[00:23:33] it's either um it's it's trying to seek balance keep reminding yourself of the truth I think those are some of them trying to believe through rather than lies you got more yeah I have the same actually

[00:23:50] the one that you talked about to set obtainable in realistic goals I think is very important because you would you would tend to as a perfectionist make a goal that's so unobtainable so high

[00:24:03] and not realistic you know so I think to break that down that you would want to make a plan like steps to get to where you want to go and put you know like do dates on that like by this time I want to be

[00:24:19] here or be doing this and to make make a plan that you could follow through with you know baby steps to get to where you want to go in a healthy way um and then another thing is that perfectionist

[00:24:32] it's a surprise you know that they either procrastinate or just quit when they make in the state but um if you make that kind of realistic plan realistic with realistic goals it helps you to stick

[00:24:44] to it and not quit and I think it helps when you have accountability too with your plans differently does it help to have people around you that that aren't perfectionist

[00:24:56] I was just gonna say because I'm like well maybe like you just need that the the one person in the room that just wants to have fun well yeah I have people mind about and you're like

[00:25:07] what if I'm you're like hold down like take a breath calm down you know my husband's like good about yourself no not like that but just a reminder of take a breath and it's not you know

[00:25:21] get your help you to get your perspective right I think it's important I think it's true in accountability I friends that know that about me so they do come alongside try to say okay let's

[00:25:32] think about this you know and helps me kind of come on I'm gonna take you here for the day you just need to you know and so I think that's I think that's really good you're so funny

[00:25:42] to have some fun I brought on my I think oh no go ahead I had one thing I was gonna say that one of the one of the things to do how to undo your perfectionism I would say is to focus on what is

[00:25:56] positive and working for you and what is going well and to be able to think realistically and outside people I think might need to speak to you if you're not really seeing what's true

[00:26:08] in real yeah well that's what did have people around you I keep I tell myself a lot when I'm trying to call myself down I need him I need to depend on him not perform for him but rest in him it's

[00:26:23] kind of like a phrase I say in my head I need him I need to depend on him not perform for him and to rest in him like scripture says so I think sometimes we can miss the spirit too yeah

[00:26:34] and no definitely if you have such expectations where you can't get off that then then you could miss the spirit because maybe the spirit's going in this direction and we're so into this

[00:26:44] plan that we had then we miss opportunities to just go hey let's just go we're God let's just keep these things in an open hand and go where God's going but that's coming from you know your free

[00:26:56] spirit is over it well I just keep reminding yourself that we can't be perfect I just keep thinking of all the greats in scripture whether it's Moses David Peter anybody put in there

[00:27:08] the Bible is pretty clear on their flaws right they all had flaws none of them were perfect yet again David Man after God's own heart even we know his flaws nobody's perfect except Jesus and so

[00:27:22] to remind of myself I am a flawed person and I am free to follow Jesus in perfectly and um I love that yeah I just have to if the Bible was all perfect people we would be in trouble

[00:27:37] we would quit we would quit it would be impossible and we wouldn't need Jesus if that was true yeah that verse Matthew 5 48 really messes with us where Jesus says be perfect we miss understand

[00:27:48] that so much and um we need to remember there's also the verses that say in John 15 that apart from him we can do nothing yes I have to remember all of that you have to really have a good self talk

[00:28:02] to kind of talk yourself down from living living out these unhealthy perfectionism you know like you need to think in a realistic way and have people help you see what's true and real yeah

[00:28:18] what a couple things you said Kelly I think is so important too that I even had written down is that you really need to be gracious with yourself you need to learn grace that mistakes are

[00:28:29] there to help us learn and to help us grow and perfectionist I think is fearful of mistakes and of being judged just in looking bad um and another thing is you know we were talking

[00:28:42] about people around us making it fun but we have to constantly remember why we do what we do the joys in it the calling and you know just be focused um not just on achieving things

[00:28:56] and achieving better things than I did last time and bigger better but to really remember why we're doing what we're doing yeah I think that scripture that you were reading in Matthew 48 it's interesting what goes before it because um he's teaching on um loving your enemies and right

[00:29:16] before that he goes into if you you have heard the law say love your neighbor and hate your enemy but I say love your enemies pray for those who persecute you in that way you will be acting this true

[00:29:28] children of your father and heaven for he gives um his sunlight to both evil and the good he sends the rain on the just and unjust if you love only those who love you this is right before

[00:29:40] that verse if you love only those who love you what reward is that to you even corrupt tax collectors do that if you are the kind um if you are kind only to your friends how are you different from anyone else

[00:29:53] even pagans do that but you are to be perfect even as your heavenly father is perfect so like if you think of that in context he's talking about like just loving our enemies loving people who

[00:30:06] persecute us you know are are we the kind of friends can we be kind to anybody you need to say in that way be perfect as God is perfectly be complete like you want to be complete and God

[00:30:17] love your enemies be kind yeah you know so I think it's an interesting I think we can deceive ourselves you know when we think we are we are pursuing excellence and we're trying to be perfect

[00:30:30] or we tell ourselves we're doing this because we want to have a good testimony for Christ and glorify him and that's all true but oftentimes I think we deceive ourselves if we're not recognizing that root of perfectionism in a I mean I heard this week that Lance Armstrong

[00:30:47] the famous cyclist he denied taking drugs for over two decades and when he finally admitted it he blamed the need to be perfect like he couldn't live with himself if he wasn't perfect but

[00:30:58] he had deceived himself I think and probably and let that drive cause him to become toxic and take drugs and stuff and so we can deceive ourselves our hearts are definitely wicked we know this

[00:31:10] desperately wicked and so again own it if there's any listeners that are kind of resonating with anything we're saying if you see it in your heart or you see that in your life own it you know bring

[00:31:22] it to the Lord ask for forgiveness and grace and help from the Holy Spirit to learn how to manage that put friends around you say hey I struggle with this help me you know I mean I think that's just

[00:31:35] the first step you know recognizing it and then taking cause we all have sin right we all have tendencies so own them and work through them with the help of the Holy Spirit. Amen to that on that

[00:31:48] note what are some resources when you just said about self deception there's a book it's a secular book but it's one of the top leadership books right now it's called um leaders in self deception

[00:32:00] and Ted and I have been going through it I think we're gonna go through it even as a staff but it was like it's like a game changer who's it by oh I hope it up leaders and self leaders and

[00:32:10] self deception I don't want to read that I'm not really it's really good and I have another one but do you guys have some some resources that we could share you know I know you're gonna ask me that

[00:32:22] and um I do not the Bible the Bible Jesus God I'm so thankful that I really did not perfect and came to save us from ourselves yeah I really didn't don't have a book on perfectionism

[00:32:42] I read a lot of articles some from the gospel coalition when I was just reading stuff I read some articles from Desiring God and Christianity today so a lot of them were just from articles

[00:32:53] I don't have any books centered on that okay so leadership and self deception getting out of the box it's by the art binger institute so that's one there's another one by Amy Spiegel

[00:33:07] it's called letting go of perfect oh funny story about this one I lost my book so so someone asked me about letting go of perfect I said I'm pretty sure I've let go of it because I have no book out by my book

[00:33:20] like I've lost it I didn't take good care of it I'm gonna read that one that would have been that would have been good so um can that one count for my recommendation I can count for you

[00:33:30] because I don't have a book so okay you can recommend that one all right well thanks for joining us today we hope you find this content really helpful good conversation so stay connected with us at when she

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