S4E10: MULTIPLY: The Leadership Pipeline

Billy Almaguer: All right, well, welcome back to the Follow Jesus Cultivate People podcast. And we're going to be continuing our conversation around some practical tools. And as you know, we've been looking at four practical tools that pastors can use to lead their churches and ministries with great clarity and with great intentionality. And so the framework so far has centered and started with the idea of the priority filter, which is what are we as ministry leaders and pastors focused on? And then the last episode we did last time was focused on measuring. How do we measure things and what do we do? So, what does that ministry dashboard look like? And now on this third part of this series, we're gonna be looking at the leadership or discipleship pipeline, which is really this idea of multiplication. And I think that's in the gospel. So I think it's a good topic to talk about. So today we're gonna be talking about multiply, the leadership pipeline, and you know, some things that I think we've observed in ministry. So whether you've been in church or Other nonprofit ministries before. I think many churches and nonprofits don't necessarily struggle because they don't have enough things to do, right? I think many of us have things to do. Many of them struggle because they don't have enough people who are equipped and/or are ready to kind of jump in and to be part of the kingdom movement and to be part to carry on some of those opportunities. And so oftentimes we find that that leaders, pastors even can be bottlenecks in their own churches. And so we're going to be talking. About today, how we move from simply finding people to fill positions and volunteer positions or your experienced team to really what does it look like for us to think about intentional development of these leaders and really discipleship who then can then develop and disciple others. And so before we get started, I want our panel to do an introduction. We got some great folks on here today, and I would love Pastor Peter, if you could jump Peter: Yeah. Billy Almaguer: in and tell us a little bit about yourself, and then we'll go to Pastor Kike and Pastor Dan. Daniel. Peter: Yeah, my name is Pastor Peter Bertold. I'm the executive pastor of ministry at Calvary Port St. Lucie. I've been an employee there for about two and a half years now, been there for about nine years as an intender. have been doing ministry in Florida for about fifteen years. and yeah, recently made this new position at Calvary PSL my new focus that that I'm so blessed to be here and looking forward to this. Mm-hmm. Kike: That's great. I'm I'm Kike Torres from from Mexico, but actually I'm right now living in Texas. we planned a church here in Texas Valley and I'm transitioning to Houston in next month. So pray for that. I'm I'm going there next two weeks to search for an apartment. and and we will be doing that from Houston, our hope for connection for the we have praise the Lord, 21 churches. Nineteen in Mexico plus McCallum plus Panama. So it is a better hope for me in Houston to connect with those churches. Meanwhile, I need to be here in America doing my green card kind of process and as a resident, I in theory I need to rest be a resident here in America. So I I mean I'm a Texan right now. Daniel Williams: Yeah, my name is Daniel and I pastor here in South Florida. planting a church right now in Boynton Beach, Florida. So we're about two months in, seeing God do great things. love teaching the word of God and been doing ministry for many years and this is a second church plant in this area and love being able to invest in leaders, send people out, and just train leaders all around the world. So blessed to be with you guys today. Billy Almaguer: Awesome. Well, I'll just do a little quick little tie in. I'm Billy here in St. Augustine, Florida. But prior to that, I was down in Port St. Lucie, Pastor Peter. So I was happened happened to be there when when Pastor Mike and Stacy had planted that church, we came along pretty early. So it's cool to see what God has done and continues to do through Calvary PSL. And then Pastor Kike, just so my family came from Monterey, Mexico to Texas. So I'm the first gin American, you know, a citizen on our side, from the great state of Texas. So you're going to the right place with some great brisket. So I'm excited for you, my friend. So yeah, yeah, month, Kike: Alma Almagra is that Latin last name. Yes, that's true. Billy Almaguer: yep, that's that's yeah, our family's from there. So yeah, cool little tie-in. And then Daniel, we've known each other for a long time. So it's it's been good. but we're I'm excited to have us. Daniel Williams: Hey, another tie in. I'm I'm I'm three hundred and sixty some days in Duolingo Spanish, so I'm almost a year. So, yo hablo español, boquito. Billy Almaguer: Ooh, you're almost a year. So you can start communicating, huh? Well, I'm excited because we're jumping in, and I'm gonna start off with a little bit of a biblical foundation. Just again, we always want to go back to the word of God as being the the center point of where we're gonna focus everything. But just in a minute or two, a couple minutes, you know, 2 Timothy 2, 2. I want to read this verse for us. It says, And and the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these things to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. And so here again we see Paul's writing to Timothy, a young pastor, a ministry leader, and he gives him very practical instructions, and that's what we love. About God's word is that oftentimes we find very practical things. And here he tells Timothy to take what he has learned and to entrust it to faithful people who will be able to teach others. And so there's a progression, it goes from Paul to Timothy to faithful people, and then eventually it's going to go to others. And so we see here in this statement, you know, four generations of spiritual investment. And so Paul wasn't simply telling Timothy to find people to just do something. Hey Timothy, can you find someone to go get some cups or to serve the coffee? Or whatever, he was telling him to invest in people who could carry the mission forward. And so I want to kind of start with a little bit of attention point because think sometimes we need to understand that there's a difference between delegation and multiplication. Delegation helps you know distribute the work, but multiplication develops people who could reproduce the work. And so I want to kind of turn it over to our panel. And and Pastor Daniel, why don't we have you kind of start off here? But why do you think leadership development is often neglected in the local church. Daniel Williams: honestly, I think leadership development is neglected because of time. It takes time to impart. It's often said you could teach what you know, but you impart who you are. So you have to actually be with people and it's very relational. And as leaders, there's a lot of stuff to get done. And so we sometimes focus too much on getting things done rather than developing people, like Ephesians four tells us as pastors to equip. And so it's always a f a fine line and a battle, I think, in people's calendars. in their tensions of how do I get this stuff done and how do I develop. And too often the temptation is for me to just get stuff done and delegate and not actually be with people and multiply. So time. Time is a very a very real thing for ministry leaders to actually develop others. Billy Almaguer: Good. Peter Kike, what do guys think? Any thoughts there? Peter: Yeah, I think going along with with what Pastor Daniel said, it's important to realize if you don't have the time for it, is mean y you're not prioritizing it. Right, that what comes down to it. So sometimes it's a it's a lack of clarity or focus on what the true goals are. and I think sometimes we get so focused on the product we forget about the people, right? So we recently did a staff meeting and the and the topic of the staff meeting was people over product, right? As as important as the task of are and the to-do lists are, the things that we need to get done, because they're important and need to get done, but it's always people first, right? It's investing in people, it's pouring into them. And then the product will will show the results of those investments that you're doing into the into the people. So it's sometimes changing that focus on what the most important thing is, what our priority is, and then we start to make time for them. Billy Almaguer: Good. Kike: Yeah. Yeah, for me I think the the challenge is that we are so into solving the immediate challenge that we have that we forgot that faithful ministry didn't end with us or is not ending with us, but it needs to go through us into more people. Like I I love a quote that I heard once that says, like the best legacy that we leave is not a building but the people that we leave behind us. So so but But th that's the man's time as as Daniel says, and and we need to be super intentional because if not we will be like doing ministry so narcotic in a way that we are so into seeing God using us and solving issues day by day that we not pay attention to to the people that will be Peter: Yeah. Kike: yeah, continuing this instruction that we receive for to for the generations. So yeah, that's that's That's what was the challenge the I hate the word balance, but the the pace or the rhythm between leading for the immediate challenges and at the same time honoring the vision as Paul was Paul was not thinking on in Timothy on this kind of instruction. He was worried about the people that Timothy will be investing at. So that's kind of a good just concept to navigate. Billy Almaguer: Yeah, that's good. And again, the goal isn't simply to get people to do things. And I think if you're a church planner, you know, if you've kind of gone through that season or you've kind of redone things in churches and you just need like we just need a lot of people to help. And I think the tendency sometimes is to get people to do stuff, but it really when we develop them, when we slow down and we think about who God has entrusted us and this we're stewarding it, right? And there's so much more we can do when we begin to develop and and help them lead and to become leaders in ministry so that it begins to multiply. And so I want to kind look at a a topic here and really kind of kind of a a first look and we're gonna dive into some things here, but really When we go from doing ministry to developing people is a theme I want to look at here. And I think that most pastors start out with the desire like, hey, I want to do ministry. I'm excited. This is what God's called me to do. You know, our family's on board. We got people God is bringing here. They love serving people. They love teaching the word, maybe leading worship, reaching the community and seeing lives change. But eventually they have to make the transition from doing the work to themselves to equipping others to do the work. And so I'm to talk about that that tension a little bit because maybe in our own lives, and maybe I want us to think here, because I want us to kind of share some stories here, but maybe think about when did you realize that your effectiveness as a pastor wasn't going to be measured only by what you personally accomplished, but by the people you were developing. Again, maybe think back and share a story. and maybe Pastor Kike, we'll start with you. When did you realize that your effectiveness as a pastor wasn't going to be measured by what you were personally doing, but really the people you were investing in and pouring into? Kike: For me, Billy, that that's I'm I'm in that system right now, after being in pastoral ministry almost seventeen years, that being out of my city for the last eleven months, I rejoice that because my green card process, when I get a paper that allowed me to go back, I was so rejoicing in the reality that the people not just love me the same and welcomed me the same, but there were people that they were clueless about who was Pastor Kike. they will reach for the people there in the church. So for a I I I I learned that from Danny Aiken, the former president of Southeastern Baptistological Seminary, because he told me like true leadership shows when you're not there in the kind of the building or church or whatever. Like if people continue doing what they do when you were there without you, that's true leadership. So we always spend time on developing catchy vision statements or values or core b distintives or whatever. But reality culture is what people do when you're not there. And and and for me it goes back to discipleship. Like I'm blessed even for it, Pastor Gadiel, the local pastor right now in Horizonte Querétaro. he traveled with me. We plan together in Mexico City. I wa I invite him to do worship with for me and for a church in twenty fifteen when we planned Mexico City Church. And so he kind of in a way grew up under my pulpit in the teaching on in that time the school of ministry that we have. But he did ministry with me kind of years planting churches, leading there in the in horizonte. He started as helping us with worship, then the w he kind of worship pastor and right now he's a local pastor of the church. So for me that the blessing And some people is like wanting just to I don't know provoke a reaction or something like, there's people in horizonte that doesn't know who's Kike. And and for me it's like that's the best thing that you can tell me. Like, because they are they're they're aware they're walking with Jesus, they know who Christ is. For me, that's that's success. like people that comes after me doing ministry without me for the glory of God's name. So So yeah, I I'm blessed to be in that harvest of being able to seeing, you know, they they call it these grand kids' churches that our churches are planting and and and they are kind of not even aware of horizonte because they are reaching their own people in their own context. but again for me that's it that's the grace of God allowing me to know that I'm not the one with you know, with a flag. with even Calvary or or horizonte or a name but but a kingdom we are kingdom expanders. So yeah for f presor that I'm on that season that rejoice to see people not knowing me but knowing Christ. And for me that's that's a big win for me. Billy Almaguer: Hmm, that's good. That's good. Daniel, I got a question for you. What happens when the pastor or a pastor becomes the person that everyone depends on? What happens? Have you seen this before? What happens? Daniel Williams: I I if you're a church planner, you've seen it before because you are the you are the bottleneck. You are leading worship, you're passing out bulletins, you're greeting, you're doing this, that, and the other. And I think I think most pastors probably experience this in the tension of burnout. s not not overhaul like sin burnout, but just I can't get everything done. They have big vision and requiring to get that vision, you're gonna need people to get stuff done. And eventually you're gonna learn that because something is gonna drop. And when you find those ex you said experience or stories, when you find like you can't take a vacation, that's when you realize, no, I need to have someone else teach. Or, you know what? I need other people to pray on the prayer team because there's only one person praying. You find that out real quickly when you're big, but you also find that in stretches of very growth. The kingdom of God usually is there's seeds planted, there's a harvest, and God in his grace gives us seasons to stretch us, to grow us. And in growing seasons you really find your deficiency and you find the f the needs in your leadership wow, I didn't even see that or need that. And so yeah, I think I think we've all we've all been there when we're the bottleneck and the pressure's on us and we feel it really, really bad. Billy Almaguer: It's good. Peter, what you think? What what's some what are some things that maybe you would share there? Peter: Yeah, I I think it's important to realize that addition doesn't automatically mean multiplication, right? So you're trying to multiply yourself and multiply what you're doing, but just 'cause you're adding on to something doesn't mean you're multiplying culture and identity. so sometimes we just we we're such in a rush to get it done. So we say, Hey, can you help? Can you do this? Can you do this? And we're not intentional to pour into these people as, you know, human beings that we love and want to do fellowship with. So I think that that's that becomes a a hurdle when people start to kinda see through that a little bit. If you're not actually caring about the person in front of you of who they are and not what they can just do, it makes it so much difficult to have these people with you for the long term, right? For for seasons and seasons just for one task or two tasks and they're and they're and they're gone. So I I kinda realized that when I when I used to do set up and teardown in a school, we did a portable church and I it was just so hard. So you just look for people who can just help you do this setup and teardown. And if you didn't care about those Folks, other than what they can do for you on a Sunday morning and Sunday afternoon, they will be f with you for maybe a few weeks or a few months and then and then they're gone because they saw that you really actually didn't care. But if you did life with them, if you poured into them, if you really cared about their family and and kind of led them in a direction of why what we do here today, why is it so important and develop them as just leaders in that ministry, they would stay with you for such a a longer amount of time. So, really just seeing that Kike: Yeah. Peter: importance is that I really want I can't do it on my own, but I want people to be here for the long the long haul. Billy Almaguer: Hmm. That's a good word. That's a good word. And I think again, the kind of the theme that I'm seeing is that pastors, we're not called to do everything in ministry, you know, and sometimes it may feel like that. There's a real tension, whether you're planting or you're just gonna that season where maybe there's aren't as many people there to help out. I we've all felt that tension. But again, our our Kike: Mm. Billy Almaguer: role and and function is to be able to equip the church for ministry. And I think that's one of the the pure joys that as you find that you're able to do that in pockets and seasons of ministry. It's just a real joy of of doing kingdom work. So I want to kind of you know shift gears a little bit and I want to look at another topic here, but I because sometimes it's like, yeah, we know we need help. Yes, we know we should be doing those things. But maybe the barrier is it's hard to identify and develop leaders. Maybe, maybe a lot of pastors and leaders who are watching this or listening are thinking, I I just have a hard time identifying. And so I think one of the biggest challenges that that sometimes in church leadership and and Ministry, you know, leadership that we have is identifying people who have leadership potential. Who are those? And it can't be, do they have a pulse, right? Because we as you said, Pastor Peter, if you do that, you don't take care of them, then they end up taking their heartbeat somewhere Peter: That's right. Billy Almaguer: else. Okay. so it can't necessarily be that, but sometimes we're looking for someone who is already equipped, experienced, and ready to lead. So maybe sometimes we have these standards like they should already be able to do A, B, and Kike: I feel like Billy Almaguer: C. But what if part of our responsibility is recognizing potential and investing in people before they're fully ready? And so my question, and Pastor B, why don't we start with you on this one? But what do you look for when identifying someone who has the potential to be a leader in ministry in some sort of way? Peter: Yeah, a thousand percent of the time I look if they have a servant's heart, right? Servant leadership is, what we preach and what we believe. And if I see someone who is willing to go the extra mile without being asked, then they're doing things because they want to honor the Lord. there's so much different things that you can teach someone who has a heart of a of a a servant. it's actually harder to do the opposite, I think, is to get someone who's very skilled in multiple different things in the professional setting and try to teach them how to be a servant and have a servant. So the first thing I'm always looking for is is it about them or is it about the Lord? do they need recognition or is that the last thing on their mind? They just want to be helpful and available. if I see the heart behind it, I'm so much willing to put the time in for all the other professional skills and traits that we can pour into someone, but it all starts with who they are and their heart and their character. Billy Almaguer: Good. Daniel Williams: Yeah, character character is key as far as, you know, I think when we talk about using people, we want to use them for their gift and get stuff done. But if we think about who someone is, the gospel, right, character and what God done in their life. And so you want to look for people that are faithful, that are available, continually showing a a servant's heart, showing a good attitude, being available. you know, just even look for people that are around. And I'm not saying yeah, but pulse, serve, but look at the people that are always around and leading and serving and faithful and relyingly showing up with their Bibles open, coming to the the prayer meetings. we could see the character by people's fruit. And so you look for that good fruit in people's lives, how a husband talks to his wife, how a mom treats their children, and look for those things and then the competency and the gifting. we God God gives gifts liberally. he can even just give give people gifts. So we want to make sure that we can ask God to give people gifts, but character is something we can decide in being faithful and trusting in God and looking for people that are just full of faith like that. Billy Almaguer: Pastor Kike, what any any thoughts here? Kike: this is not gonna be a popular thought, but for me it's more about the leader. a thing that I'm discerning right now, even we have this vision or desire in a way to have three churches for 2030. so we are nine churches for to that mark. but I think is that I'm learning the hard way that many of the church planters are good. Bible teachers, but they're not leaders. And and for me, everything builds or falls on leadership. So the the best leadership principle that I know is monkey see, monkey do. So if if you are a good Bible teacher, that doesn't isn't at least in my experience, that's not enough to plan the church. Because you need the gift of leading or or being able to lead people that Allow people to see something in you that attracts them to follow you. So you and you're more able to develop this relationship that you model to them in real life what you will be asking for them to do later. So but I I I I've seen so many good Bible teachers, good servants, and sadly even faithful deacons that they got by pastors following or pro God's providence, they're promoted to pastoral positions that and they don't deliver because they're they're faithful. They do the extra mile, but they don't have the gift of leading. And that's kind of be a problem, if you are wanting to do real discipleship in long term. Billy Almaguer: No, that's good. And the themes there, characteristics that that I was kind of thinking about as I was kind of listening to you all was again faithfulness, character, humility, teachability, spiritual maturity, reliability, willingness to serve. And so sounds a lot like that, those are the things that we needed to have as well, as God was calling us to do ministry, and and and the people that poured into us. And so again, when we're thinking about Developing this leadership pipeline in the context of where God has called you to serve. Don't look for people who can just simply do a job. We look for people who are faithful, teachable, capable, and who are growing into greater responsibility. And it should be our heart, I think, as pastors and and ministry leaders to see people grow in their walk with the Lord. Because, that's that's how he's expanding the kingdom. He's calling people out. He's he's calling us into different seasons, into different things. And so look at the next thing I want I want to share or I want us to talk through is, you know, it's it's one thing to kind of think about multiplication. It's one thing to have kind of a system. I'm all about systems and things that are repeatable. However, when we think about a cultural multiplication, I think that takes it a a step further. And I think that's a lot of times where churches seem to struggle. You may have two or three people who are good at, you know, multiplying and growing leaders, but how do we develop a culture of discipleship? How do we develop a culture of like leadership so that the church can continue to thrive and to do ministry? And so in Mark chapter three, Jesus gives us a great example. I'm going to read verse 14 to you. He says, Then he appointed 12 that that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach. So we notice right off the back, Jesus appointed these 12 that they might first be with him, and then he sends them out. And so the order, I think, is important. Of course, we want to be with Jesus, be around him, and to be at his feet, but then also be ready to be sent out. And so here, Jesus didn't simply recruit people to accomplish tasks. He first invites us into a relationship, right? And I think that's important. So pastors with churches typically try to balance that out. How do we, you know, make sure People know that they're invited into a relationship with Jesus. How we how can we as a church help facilitate and to help that relationship flourish and grow? But we also saw Jesus invest in them, we saw Jesus taught them, and then eventually he sends them out. And so we see it's biblical. even for us to do the same thing. And leadership development requires more than assigning responsibilities. It requires for us to make that investment. And so I want to throw a question out there and Daniel, why don't we throw this one to you to kick it off? But how Daniel Williams: Yeah. Billy Almaguer: do you intentionally create a culture where developing other leaders becomes part of everyone's responsibility, not just yours, but everyone's responsibility. Daniel Williams: Well, I think as a leader, you set by example. So you obviously need to be intentional as a leader. You take people with you, and then you impart that vision or your heart to other people. So I'm giving an example, spending time intentionally going to speak at a conference. I'm taking three guys with me. I'm investing them right now. They're gonna see me do ministry, they're gonna help me do ministry, and then their challenge in post that is saying, now I want you to do the same thing with other people. Because if it just stays even in our tight little group, that's not creating a culture, that's creating a click. And so we need to make sure that we actually have other people that know the standards and what that looks like. And sadly, most pastors, most leaders have never actually been discipled. Because we disciple how we've been discipled. And most pastors have been discipled by like getting getting doing stuff, getting stuff done. okay. Well, I need this. Why don't you do it? And let's test your heart. But they actually aren't intentional. And if you're not intentional, you'll never fall into a good healthy culture because it's your job as the leader to actually get rid of stuff, say that's not okay, this is okay. And so that's a short example because I'm thinking of people of start. There's I'd love to hear from Kike about his school of ministry. Peter, I'd love to hear from you about how you got raised up. But I'm just thinking where does a smaller church even start? I'm taking three guys, three months, first Sunday of every month. Praying with them, having them read a book, talking about how we're gonna go apply it, go do ministry. They're gonna see it, we're gonna talk about it, engage, they're gonna be challenged to do that with other people. That's where the multiplication happens. But if I just told them go do this with other people, they would have no idea what to do. So I need I need them to see what does it look like to to wake up early to pray, to be led by the spirit, to when when something goes wrong, how does the leader handle it? I want them to see all that, and then After they get their guys, I'm going to meet with them and coach them and their problems and stuff like that. So you can start small because the beautiful thing about multiplication is it grows exponentially. You can have two, then four, then eight, and then boom, the curve just goes up. So don't be discouraged if you have to smart start small or even slow. God will use that as long as you're intentional growing that. But yeah, I'd I'd love to hear from from you, Kike, because you all obviously have multiplied a lot. you have multiple pastors. How do you train them? How do you build a culture when you're not even in the same church building city as all of these pastors? Give us some insight about how you train people for the school of ministry and maybe even like prayer culture and getting on these type of Zoom type of things. Like how do you how do you build a culture not being Kike: Hmm. for me it's in in many ways it's a lot about the conversation that you have and the identity that you implement into them. from the scratch, right now we're praying to plant a church in San Miguel de Allende, one hour north of Queretaro my city, there in Mexico. And we're kind of sending one of the like right now the young adults leader from one of the churches that we plant in the north of the city, and he's getting married in three weeks. And I've just finished our mo weekly praying meeting with pastors and deacons that he's part of that. And we are kind of laughing and like praying and like mentioning hey, when you go to the like just for him to be aware, like we are not seeing you as part of us forever. You are here to be sent. And and we have this kind of conversation like successful church is not based on the people that you can seat in your place, but the people that yours can send. Through your plates. So that's part of our DNA in a way that we always send the best that we have. And we not just send the people, we send money, like human resources, like even equipment. so like from but that's not kind of even that that's not even kind of like me in a way. I learned that from Jesus. Like Jesus was searched by many. and in the book of Mark says like no no like like the the apostle says like many are searching for you and he said like no we need to leave because we need to preach the kingdom of God in our cities. So cities has been in Christ's heart since the beginning. So but we when we all become about like make our building names church big where we are, I think like God go to a next church that has a heart for expanding and multiplication because God is not about making your kingdom bigger, but making his kingdom be known. So for me, from the DNA, from the vision and for the conversation we are praying about, like even kind of if you can pray for me, I'm I'm I'm I'm walking a pastoral residence of Champion Forest in Houston. They are producing ten pastors every year. We are producing one every 18 months. So for me, I want to learn the way and the pattern that they're doing because I dream for the more holistic in a way. System. I love the word that Billy used. I I'm not a big fan of the system word for people, but that's a way that it's reproducible for detecting, developing, sending, and caring for pastors in Latin America. So And that needs to be from the DNA, from the who we are, from we're we are a church with the eyes over there, not wanting the blessing to be just for us. So having that as part of our conversation, it becomes harder for a leader that we are detecting to dream about consolidating himself as part of us here, but he has success as being sent to reproduce and multiply. as part of their the I don't know, the vision in a way. Daniel Williams: Yeah. No, it sounds like you have the language, you're building that world and giving the vision for it. So even saying, Hey, you're not gonna be here forever, we'll want to send you out, you're building that culture through vision, not just a vision statement, but you're setting expectation, you're using language, you're giving focus for that. and people are buying into the Kike: And even in the guys that we are hiring, because after 18 months, we allow the kind of the candidate to decide if he wants to be sent or he wants to remain with us. Right now we are in desperate need of developing pastors for a local church because we are right now like around 1600 people. And without me there in person, they're just right now three pastors. So we need to develop for the local church. But I always like invite people to our pastoral residence in order for them To walk the path, be be Casa, be home, be love, love, be known, know. And when if God allows you to be sent, we will be you will be missed here. But right now, I always have in in the Calvary conversation, spirit led, like knowing that probably because we are in the spirit of local elders or pastors, we are equipping you to be remaining for us. And we the last two. there's like I I I want to be here. One of them was he he's a he's an all-around. He he has the he can he can pastor plan a church anywhere. He has the preaching, the leading, the the equipping, the but he's in his four he's forty eight right now. So when I invite him, I was planning for him to be sent after the 18 months, but he says like, you know, if you will ask me this question 10 years ago, I will tell you like, please send me to plan a church in Merida or in one of the cities in Mexico. But right now, I I have never been cared for my for my soul, for my family, for my marriage. My kid is happy here. I'm 48. I'm not kind of in this, you know, trailblazing anymore. I would love to belong to a team that cares for me and bless that team with my gift that rather to be sent. And for was a blessing because in that time we was just two pastors. So so that's kind of but Even having them know that he's not for to be hired as a pastor, but to be assigned to an area of the church that we want multiplication to happen. That it was in that case our discipleship program for the newcomers, that was like I received, I don't know, 150 people in thirty small groups. Right now we he has around 800 people in I don't I don't know I don't rem even remember how many small groups. So for for him, I'm sent for the local church to that area to multiply and really be a kingdom expander in that area. So I try to avoid the the the conversation like I'm a manager or I'm a pastor or I'm a coordinator or no no you I will they are developing their own report for the end of the year and planning for the next year. And I always told them if you present me a project that you don't desperate you're not desperating seeking God for that to happen. I can hire an unbeliever to do that. for just administration and managing, I don't need a believer. I can I can hire someone to do that. I need, faithful and bi holy ambition guys to to want to multiply. So yeah that that's the way I lead from from not getting happy of where we are but really wanting more in more places and for more people. Daniel Williams: That's amazing. Pete Pete, what what about you? you've you in the last couple of years have come from setting up tearing down chairs to now your role of whatever it is now. So what's the what's the latest? just growing and getting this position and now that position and now this it seems like you're just filling in needs. What does that look like for you and how has it been for you been raised up in a church? Peter: Yeah, it was, you know, awesome to see the different ways the Lord can use you in ministry. I think that's why it's so important from what I've seen when God calls you to just just do different things that the church needs and he empowers you to do it. I think w like we're talking about they were with him and they were sent out by him, but they were also Called by him, right? They were called to himself. And I think that's really a big starting point for empowering leaders is that you gotta tap them on the shoulder. You have to believe in them. You gotta say, hey, I see something in you. and you called them from where they're at to you. And I and I think a lot of what I've experienced in my journey in ministry is that people saw things in me, maybe that I didn't see in myself. people took risks on me that I wouldn't take on myself, like Kike: Yeah. Peter: people just. just gave me opportunity and spoke life into me and he says hey come over here you'll be great at this the lord has a a calling on your life on this and that is such a big starting point for really empowering leaders and daniel even for the the three guys that you're going with on this trip you had to invite them and that invitation had to do something to their heart you're like they're like me you you want me to come with you and that there that that starting point that spark of belief in someone I think it goes a long long way so that's kind of what I experienced I experience people taking risks people saying you can do more people saying I believe in you people saying that God's doing something in your life and once you start to edify the body in that way and say God has something greater for you I think that's really the beginning of the journey to be to be called out by him then to be with him and then to be sent out Daniel Williams: That's good. Dave Ferguson says those are the four most important letters you can speak in the alphabet. I see in you. I see in you great things and to call that out to people. So Peter: Men. Billy Almaguer: Good stuff. And the the thing I want to land on, because I think Daniel kind of started, he led in there with a little bit of this, but the thought is that if leadership development stops with with us, then multiplication stops with us. And so it really is, you know, I think sometimes as pastors, church planners, leaders, we have we're fixated on, you know, whether it's the teaching of the word, which is absolutely important, but in terms of development and discipleship and leadership. if it's stopping or it's it's at a crawl. then the multiplication will be there too. And Daniel said something again, this as a my hobby horse for a second is that, you know, oftentimes pastors, you know, they do leadership development the way that it was done to them. And so they're really emulating what what they already know. And so if you're finding a gap there, I I just want to encourage you to to find a cohort, find other leaders, pastors that you can be around that will help you grow in those areas that maybe you didn't grow well in or maybe finished growing in. So that you can look at leadership development, so that you can look at multiplication and see what how God might use that in your life. And so want to kind of look at some practical things here. And I want to actually look at what a leadership pipeline could look like. Now, for some of you listening, you probably have some different things that are working. Well, continue doing those. Don't don't necessarily change those. We're just throwing a framework out there for you to consider if you don't have somewhere to start. I'm gonna give you five things to think about. Number one is to identify, recognize faithful people who have some leadership potential. So just kind of identify number one. The second thing is invite, bring them into a relationship and then give them an opportunity to grow. Don't just bring them into a job or a job description or volunteer job description, Kike: Yeah. Billy Almaguer: whatever. Bring them into an opportunity to grow. Number three, invest in them, spend time with them, teach them, model and and encourage and equip. Show them What it looks like to be a servant leader was the term that we just heard a minute ago. The fourth thing is to empower them. While it's good to come alongside people, at some point we need to empower them, give them responsibility, give them authority, give them room to be able to lead in whatever context it might be. It might be for me, it was getting the keys to a truck so that I can drive the truck full of all of our stuff at church over to where we had church. That was the responsibility I was given. But it was the point that I need. needed in my life. And then finally being able to release. And sometimes that's hard to do because we automatically think, well, who's going to do the job if so-and-so leaves? They're they're like a great person, but we need to send them out to be able to lead to serve. and to develop others. And so I want to just throw it out to our panel real quick. But maybe what are some things that you've seen work just briefly, kind of some things that maybe have worked in the church that you're currently at or maybe in some another place where you had served before. And I'll just kind of throw it out there for anyone who wants to grab it. Peter: Yeah, I'll I'll say a few things. right now, We are this is the largest church I've worked with and it's important to be relational but it's also very important as you grow to be structured well. Right. So you do need a ministry or leadership pipeline. You need some things that you cannot that's tangible and untangible. You need you need a way to measure if we're doing this effectively. Kike: Mm. Peter: so w what I did with my team is that we started doing on our one-on-one meetings, we started doing a what's called a ministry snap. Shot so we take a a sheet and we say where we are, how we're doing, kind of the health of the ministers, and where do we need to go? And usually those can be quantified with numbers. We start measuring, okay. We have this many volunteers or we call them ministry partners, but we should be here to be more healthier, or we have these many leaders, but to create sustainability, we will need to double that amount to make sure that if someone's out or someone's missing, we can get to so we start making these numbers and these tracks when it's easy. Each ministry has their snapshot of where they're at currently and where we need to be. And that gives us something to really work towards. so we've been really developing that. That's it, that's really been a helpful guide for us to see how well we're doing in this leadership pipeline that we're developing. so much so that we we've made it our own little app. And if you go to ministry snapshot.com you you'll see that and It's something that we do for churches. Billy Almaguer: That sounds like gold. I think we're all gonna go there now. Check that out. We'll Peter: Ha ha ha ha. Billy Almaguer: go check that out. Yeah. What are some other thoughts here, guys? Daniel Williams: What what about you what about you, KK? Kike: For me, you know, I I have this I have challenged I had challenged twenty twenty from a culture that we developed for the l for the first nine years of in church of being performance oriented. And even our pastors and deacons meeting was all about business and things that we need to solve. And when a kind of division that we suffer in that year, and providentially A year before I was invited to a Six for Fellowship, the event that we had in Houston for pastors who pray and preach, that was really a game changing for me in my approach to God, intimacy with him, and leading a church based on God dependence, not performance oriented. So we transition right now we are if we have our meetings like two hours every Tuesday, if we dedicate like An hour to 90 minutes just to seek the face of God together in prayer and has become one of the best times or more dynamic times that we can share one to each other. And then we dedicate 30 minutes just to what we need to know of what is happening in the ministries because we everyone is hired and is there because they are doing their job. So we're assuming that they are already kind of performing. I'm as a leader. want to just make sure for them that in my table I lead from what I preach that our first call is to intimacy, not to activity. Activity needs to be the overflow of what we have with God with nobody sees us. So that kind of part of the our DNA it is implemented in our meetings as leaders that they're kind of they're blessed for that time just to have a point of contact with me and with the other leaders seeking God together, not performing together. And that has been a blessing for the last six years. Daniel Williams: Hmm. You know, you know what I'm hearing from both of you guys, which we can steal both ideas. Pete, you had a great system ministry sna snapshot, asking three simple questions. It's a repeatable process. They can do that with other people. Kike, you're like, I don't do a ministry snapshot. What I do is I pray. But you said every Mondays we pray, and it's two hours, and this is what we do. The bottom line is both of you guys are intentional to have a system, and I think if we want to be led by the spirit and reproduce, we need to stop seeing systems, conflict with the spirit. And to be able to actually say, what do I value and how do I want to repeat this over and over and over again until it becomes who I am? Because the habits you have become the character, the you know, the character and that's who you are. And so when we talk about building a pipeline culture, you actually have to make decisions to form some habits in your in your church. To build that character and become who you want to be. And so whether it be from just circling back the beginning of, we don't have any time, we don't have any time, we all have the same amount of time. We just need to prioritize how do we want to spend that time? And what does that look like and how do we really value it? And so what is the best system in this season for our church to get to where we want to be? For you, Kike, you were all up you didn't need to worry about the performance side and practice. You were either that was done. You were doing that. You needed to. Flip that system and go this way. For you, Pete, you're ex you're expanding ministries to the largest church, and you have all these new people, they need some skills. Great. Let's do this system. And I think Peter: Mm-hmm. Daniel Williams: where we need to lean on the spirit is w we need discernment and wisdom. We we we can get all the knowledge we want, but where do we apply that knowledge in what season? What does that look like? Because the goal, if the goal is, if the goal is multiplication, I just think about that verse in in Second Timothy. Paul told Timothy before he said, Pass all this stuff on, he said, be strong in the grace that is in you. And we need to be men Peter: Wait. Daniel Williams: that are strong in our identity of who God is, his spirit leading us, and really being sensitive to him. So when he tells us to set that pattern, set that system, do this, that, and the other, we can say, Yeah, this is the favor, this is the grace, this is the wisdom God gave us. So, I like how there's two different approaches, or there's multiple things. I know people they're like, You gotta do this, and there's a school of ministry and People You gotta do this and there's this. I just think you gotta do something. So ask God ask God for wisdom. Kike: Yeah. No, I I and I I want to be clear. I want to be clear, Daniel, that we it we do like what Peter does there. Every church needs that in their church environment or system. I do that for with the killiers every four months. But because we need to know where we are and based on Peter: That's Kike: so so like it is not yo, you know, just be spirit led and avoid any numeric measuring. No, no, no. We like the way i the way i told this year to my team is like hey let's count what christ count so in the bible god counts people blessed people rich people send people served so if that's numbers that we have in the new testament let's Peter: Amen, yeah. Kike: consider count what god counts and because if the the the measure that god allow us to have is numbers so it is not like i i'm not numbers because that's corporation oriented no no no no no don don don't don't don't don't get confused. God give us numbers to count. Just make sure that we're counting what he's counting because if not, probably we'll be investing in systems and protocols like corporations and not kind of as churches. Daniel Williams: That's good. I'm just I I'm writing some stuff down. Peter: Amen. No, and I agree. I agree to that completely because it's it's both. It's definitely a both. You got to be led by the spirit. You got to be praying with these people. You got to be in proximity with them. And you also have to have the have a vision to make it plain and let them know where we're going together and how we're going to accomplish that. So there's prayer and there's a plan and they go together. Kike: And even for for it's gonna be hard this, but right now that I I planned this church three years ago and I I was helping them for eight months, like here in America, bro, like America it's all about numbers. Like that's the way you measure success. And and it is not as it is not kind of toxic if you're kind of spirit led and again wanting to count what God counts, but if you're putting money into something. You are and you putting kind of time and you're putting kind of resources, you're expecting for that thing to multiply. Like I I I'm I'm kind of really tired of these missionaries asking for money to churches just to invite an unbeliever a coffee once every two months. Like for me, it's like, dude, I have sixteen hundred people that do that for free. so for me it's like I want like if you're challenged, like cool. You're doing ministry and people are getting saved through your ministry. show me the no show me the money. Like show me the numbers. So I can be like, okay, the best advice that I have for one of my mentors is like put your money where God is already doing something. That's the best roy that you can have. So so and for that roy, you need to have like, hey, I start with three people, three more, three years after I have like at least four. like it God is in business of growing, like a a Peter: That's right. Kike: a a living organism grows. There will be pouring seasons, but grows. Billy Almaguer: Yeah, and I would say if you're listening to this and you're missionary, if you want to send information, getting some support from Pastor Kike, just make sure you have your numbers. That's what I got from that. I think that's good. Well, hey, Peter: Hahaha Daniel Williams: Yeah. Billy Almaguer: gentlemen, I I know kind of, you know, again, bigger picture, a lot of good discussion here. but again, I think, you know, what we're hammering in on is that as pastors and leaders, Sometimes the biggest mistake we can make is believing that success in our ministry is dependent on how much we can personally do, which I know there's a lot of high capacity. and sometimes that's overly celebrated in the American church. But again, as we saw, scripture gives us a little bit different picture, seeing Paul invest in Timothy, Timothy invested faithfully in others, and then those faithful people began to invest in others. And so again, what we're seeing there is multiplication. And so, you know, to me, the the the challenge I think I want to give as we get ready to close things out. Mm-hmm. Is that if you're listening to and hopefully there was a lot of good content and some some nuggets you could take away, especially between systems and Holy Spirit, yes to both, right? We want to we want to both those things are needed. But I want to challenge those who are listening andor watching to three things maybe this week. Maybe identify, you know, three people this week in your church or in your ministry around you who are Christ's followers. maybe and and you know, someone need to identify as having leadership potentials. That's one category. The second category could be someone need to invest more time in, maybe someone you need to, carve out more time with, be intentional, even what what Daniel was saying, taking three people and meeting together and kind of getting a little bit of schedule. And then the third one is someone you need to empower with greater responsibility, even if that means they can do it better than you. Ask yourself you know, who am I developing? who is developing others, and what would happen if I stepped away from my current responsibility? So I think. Again, those are some great, great questions we can have. And again, I think you know, at the end of the day, the whole point is that you, you know, again, being being led by the Lord would be developing people, that you would be empowering leaders in the context of your ministry so that you can see multiplication occur. And so I want to again thank you for joining us on this podcast for follow Jesus cultivate people. And we just want to just say that if this is been encouraging to you to maybe share it with another pastor who would maybe benefit from understanding what multiplication looks like. And so until next time, follow Jesus, cultivate people, and go multiply.