S4E2: Discipleship Pathways – How People Grow

speaker-1: Well yeah, I'm Daniel Williams in South Florida, the beautiful co-host of the Billy Almagir, and serving Jesus at Calvary Chapel of the Palm Beaches in Southeast Florida. speaker-2: I'm Keith Radke, pastor at River Community Church in South Jordan, Utah. We're just outside of Salt Lake City. Been here for ⁓ almost sixteen years now with my wife Angie. We've got seven kids, just had our ninth grandchild, and I'm only 35. speaker-1: Are you kidding me r are okay, I gonna say are you kidding me right now? Only thirty five with thirty grandkids? That's a ⁓ speaker-3: Amazing. That's awesome. My name is Adrian Tiharina. I am a pastor of two churches here in Tennessee, Central Chapel Church and Mount Pleasant Community Church. Two churches that are going through a big ⁓ church revitalization. And so I came here about two and a half years ago. ⁓ before that I've had you know fifteen plus years of ⁓ worship pastor experience. I finished my ⁓ Div from ⁓ Western Seminary in Portland and I had most of my life's all been on the West Coast. So out here in the south now just ministering and shepherding people to know Jesus more. So it's a blessing to be with you guys. Yeah, I think it would go down pretty well at the churches where I pastor because, you know, coming into a church revitalization, ⁓ really the first thing that I did was sort of a cultural anthropology. Where has the church come from and where where are we going? And so from the pulpit, I use that opportunity, every opportunity I can, to sort of explain the why. I think that's really one thing as pastors we have to do. Explain the why. Why do we do what we do? What is the church? Yes, and what does it mean to know Jesus, but One of the big questions that people have is why? Like why should I share my faith? Why should I serve others? You know, it reminds me of just ⁓ the first letter of John, you know, we love because God first loved us. And so I think the first step toward a pathway to discipleship is to explain why to to the folks in our churches. Why are we doing the things that we do? Whether that's opportunities, you know, to serve outside of the church or within the church, I think answering why will bring a lot of clarity to ⁓ to that new believer. And so I think a lot of the new believers in the churches where I pastor would know would already have an sort of a a ⁓ prime in their soul that says, Okay, for me to know Jesus and to to walk in his way is to love and serve others. So then the question comes and we'll get there, but the question then comes like sort of the how, you know, that's the next, you know, the the question. It's not really the the clarity as to why. Then the the question becomes how how may I serve and and how can I clarify the gifts that I have and all of those things that are great in the church. speaker-2: At River, one of the things that we say as a moniker is simply following Jesus. You know, we're looking to express Christian living in everyday life. So through church community, we use phrases like gather to worship, grow in community, and go on mission together, simply following Jesus together. A huge emphasis for us is who are you gonna connect with today? Who are you gonna connect with next week? We really try to push discipleship into everybody's. responsibility, not just the leadership or volunteers or those kind of things. I would say for us that clarity is better than it was before. And I remember when we first launched River about seven and a half years ago, I was really big on let's get into discipleship, multiply God's kingdom one heart at a time. And everybody's like, Yes, let's go to the festivals and ⁓ you know, do the big outreaches. It's like, no, no, no, let's disciple people and get people into, you know, small conversations, small groups, one on ones of those kind of things. So Now it's definitely more of a culture of who you take into lunch after church today, who you meeting for coffee, you know, the Bible studies, you know, they're there for people and homes and and those kind of places. But the biggest thing is we we need each other. Following Jesus is not meant to be a solo journey. Get into relationship with people in the church, find like interests, stages of life, those kind of things, and and be organic about it, right? I mean, who doesn't want to eat a meal? You know, who doesn't want a cup of coffee? And so I think a lot better than before, you know, people can say, Hey, discipleship is is getting into fellowship with another person and and growing in life together. speaker-1: That's great. Yeah, I think for me, I mean what you're saying, Keith, is so important. Like community. I tell people you could be a Christian in isolation, but you can't make disciples by yourself. And so the first thing is to be in commune with God. As we're explaining the why, we're also explaining the what as we faithfully just week in and week out teach the word of God, worship the word ⁓ worship through worship, ⁓ through singing, through giving, just practicing spiritual disciplines. Cause when we're talking about making disciples, it's actually discipline in that word. We have to have some intentionality. And so we have to tell people, hey, your next step is like to be intentional with the Lord. How do you need to grow? What do you need to do? And who can you do this with? So can you connect with community? And for us, we're always the first step and every step is get with other people. Love God, love people. Like you said, Keith, just like simply follow Jesus, do this in community, and you'll find some next steps. The Spirit will teach you and explain these things. As you seek him through these disciplines. speaker-2: I would say the probably the biggest stall point is when people come into church, it's an event. You leave the event. What do you do next? So that next step communication is really in helpful to that. But there are some people who love just kind of going back to their regular routines, you know? And I think I think the challenge that we're facing and trying to work through is how to how to help people, maybe even with a little bit of disruption, reframe the routines they came in with. What does it look like for me to drop that Thursday night thing to now spend time in fellowship, discipleship, building community with another brother, another sister, or a small group? You know, a lot of times there's a call, or maybe not so much a call, there's an invite to a next step opportunity, but the challenge isn't there. We we become a little bit more accustomed in our culture to just kind of letting people keep doing their thing, you know? And ⁓ and so I I know for me the challenge is how do I balance, you know, people doing what they do and taking Jesus where they go, but also recognizing that in the book of Acts, people were doing things together daily. They were continuing daily in these things. So is it a phone call? Is it a text message? Is it some way to disrupt and say, hey, what are you doing? You got a moment for a phone call? You know, I I think I'm just being vulnerable here. You know, that that's like a that's a stall point for me as a pastor. Like, how do I get people to that next step? You know? I've I've had conversations with people on a Sunday as they're leaving the church and you know that's like no more than three minutes. I'll text people on a Monday and follow up and say, How's it going? And really try to challenge people, like check in on the people that you connect with. Otherwise we just all go back to what we've been doing all week long and church is an event. And so maybe the challenge, maybe maybe one of you guys could speak to that, like How could we be in a healthy way without controlling people disrupt that routine a little bit and say, hey, what about some new things? speaker-1: Keith, I think for me, I tell people all the time, we grow through loving accountability. And so ⁓ when we're in community and not, hey, this is the rule, you do it, but what is Jesus teaching you? What is the Spirit guiding you in? How can I help you? So one ⁓ one part I see the stall in a lot of Christians and in our discipleship pathways is just practically applying God's word and and walking through. You know, we get inspired because we worship God with our hearts and we get inspired on a Sunday morning. Emotions are flowing and we're worshiping, raising our hands. ⁓ we even get intellectually worshiping God with our minds, our head. But I think that stall point for a lot of people is just with their hands, worshiping God by applying it. Jesus said, You're blessed if you apply these words. And what we could think is discipleship is is worship, is singing, is raising our hands, or studying the word, which is worship, but we also worship primarily growing with our hands, putting it to action into our life. And for us to be able to do that, we gotta say, hey. How can I help you with that? What is the spirit teaching you? And what does that look like? And then just coming alongside through that accountability could really help people grow. I think groups are so important because they help you apply the word of God to love one another. And so many people think gifts and fruit are different, are the same thing, but they're actually different. So when I think of a group and think about exercising gifts and doing stuff, that's a result, that's a thing of faith, that's great. But what I'm specifically looking for as the pastor is are these people loving one another? Are they forgiving one another? Are they showing patience? Love covers a multitude of sin. Are people just getting offended and leaving or are they sticking it out? And so I'm I'm specifically trying to look for the fruit of the fruit of the spirit in these groups and have the leaders sort of encourage the groups to not just think about what they can get out of it or even give to the group, but how can they spur one another on to love the Lord more and love one another more? I don't know if that answered your question, but that's just what I was. speaker-3: Yeah, I I just love that so much, Daniel. I think it's a great approach to groups, you know. I remember really early on in my ministry I was overseeing groups for Calvary Church in Aurora, Colorado, under Ed Taylor. And one thing that really really stirred a passion for me for small groups was a great book. I'm sure you guys have read it, A Sticky Church by Larry Osborne. Great book. And in that he he makes up his general thesis is that all ministry can happen on the small group level. And if you really think about it, it can happen that way. Worship, ministry, preaching of the word, you know, shepherding, even things like hospitality or generosity and giving, all those things can happen in a small group as long as we allow them to sort of come organically. But the second part I'd say to that is that we have to instill in our group leaders or in those who are sort of shepherding those small groups to sort of have eyes to see, right? They have to have a discernment about them that kind of sees where people are growing. And also to have a sensitivity to not necessarily elevate someone too fast. You know, if somebody does show a aptitude toward preaching or teaching or whatever it happens to be, we don't want to necessarily just just move them up the pipeline just to do that. But we want to be sensitive, I think, as shepherds, as leaders, to to really see the folks that we're ministering to as they're growing in Christ. And I think that can happen in small groups as long as we're careful and and considerate about somebody's spiritual maturity. So so when we do that, we're just focusing so much more on ⁓ the development of the sheep and not just the numbers of the sheep. speaker-2: Good. I think consistency is one of the fruits that I look for both in whether the community group, the life group, those things are working or not, but also in leaders. I think, you know, a lot of times, you know, we're kind of looking for, you know, maybe an all star, you know, right below the passer kind of level small group leader. Really what we're looking for is people who are gonna be consistent, who are gonna show up. whether they open their home or they're facilitating it at the church or at another place, that people in your church can count on that group being there, even if you don't show up. And ⁓ one one of our small group leaders who leads a Bible study midweek, ⁓ you know, we've had some challenges where he's shown up and nobody else did. And, you know, it's like, hey, a at what point do we call it? And I just like just keep being consistent for a period of time and then we'll reevaluate it. And it's paid off, you know, because people are showing up People know that he's gonna be there. You know, if he can't be there, it's usually an emergency. And I think that that example set by someone that you place in that responsibility of leadership and discipleship, others are gonna catch on to that. So more than like the format, although I think, you know, having some spiritual elements to it so it doesn't just become a social club is really important, you know, consistency, because then I know that if I call my group leader when I'm in the middle of a crisis, most likely they're gonna answer the phone. Most likely they're gonna call the other people in the group and and they're gonna come together and they're gonna visit at the hospital to bring a meal or step in when those kind of things. So we really look for consistent people to facilitate you know whatever organized ⁓ you know, groups, but we also ⁓ you know, encourage people to be consistent, to show up if the group is there. If Tuesday nights tonight that you can be at a group, here's the one on Tuesday, go and and Keep going, you know, be consistent because over time that comes back down to the routines and the rhythms of your life. It just becomes ingrained into what what you consider to be normal as a Christian. Like I've gotta be at my group, I've gotta be in my Bible study or or whatever. Yeah, thanks Billy. I've I've shifted from trying to build crowds to disciple leaders. I think every leader gets to a point in their life where you realize you can't do everything. You can't be in the nitty gritty of every system and process. So what is the most effective use of your time and your energy, especially a lot of pastors now are bi vocational and so your bandwidth is really limited to what you can invest in the church. And I have found over the last I I would put it down to about two years now in the life of our church, I have intentionally set up opportunities to meet with people who have either demonstrated leadership potential by the way that they show up consistently and serve people consistently. Man, you just you you know you kind of pick it up, right? Like this person or maybe they say, Hey, you I used to serve and run a ministry in another church and and so you've got to find ways to say, well let's get together and let's talk and let's go through this. I took all of our men through systematic theology, but I didn't do it with all, you know, twenty five, thirty men at once. I broke them down into small cohorts and I enc I encouraged these guys, hey, we're gonna we're gonna be done and I'm not gonna spend a whole lot more time with you, you know, this particular thing. Now take it to another group of people. Start getting involved in helping people understand systematic theologies. I think the leader's best investment in the local church is to go from trying to run everything to now trying to multiply leadership and work yourself out of a job in ways that may surprise you. You know, we've got a guy who shows up every Sunday and for a while he was doing sound. Now he just oversees sound. He doesn't even touch sound. And give him a microphone and have him do our call to worship on Sunday morning. And it's just, you know, putting him in a position of Of encouragement and influence in the church. And as he demonstrates consistency with that, I can see him being more involved in the leadership of our church. And so just really like for me, the challenge for me at some point was I was burnt out, couldn't couldn't figure out, you know, how to run everything by myself, which you're not supposed to. But and so it's like, Lord, show me people who have a potential and then give me the long term view for it too, because you know, the thirty thousand foot view says it's gonna take five years to develop another pastor in your church. It's gonna take, you know, ten years to see people go from From unbeliever seeker to, you know, mature Christian in the church. So the best use of time and energy I think for pastors is to get those leadership people consistently meeting with them monthly, every other week, and focus on developing leaders who are then going to do the work of the ministry in your church. That's good. speaker-3: Keith, I just want to say I I appreciate that so much. I think, you know, you really hit the nail on the head. You know, identifying leaders really comes from a place of active shepherding. We've got to be active. We've got to involve be involved in people's lives, whether that's inviting yourself in or just inviting someone into your life. But having that connection, having that closeness can give us a a greater understanding of somebody's inclinations, somebody's passions, ⁓ just how they feel like they are gifted. You know, I always tell tell the folks where I where I minister, it's like, you know, spiritual gifts are something that the Holy Spirit gives to us. But I think the clarity of our spiritual gifts comes from community. That's really what it is. It's other people also affirming in you the things you really are are driven to by by the Holy Spirit and empowered by the Holy Spirit. And so I think having that active shepherding role is so important to develop ⁓ to identify leaders and then to develop them moving forward. You know what I love For us as Calvary is, you know, I came from ⁓ just that that culture of you know, I tell folks it's like a taste and see ministry. We wanna invite people to just do it. And then afterward we can reflect, we can talk, we can, you know, talk about ⁓ what it was like and and sort of how the Lord was moving, how did we sense the Lord and and how you know, where do we want to take this moving forward. Now I think as pastors we can invite folks to taste and see how good God is. And and the the giftings that you know were given by the Holy Spirit and how we can use that ⁓ just to develop leaders in that sense. I certainly think that, you know, one of the my biggest burdens I always feel, especially maybe like I said, ministering here in the South in a church revitalization, I want people to move beyond performing for God and really moving into serving with with passion and power by the Holy Spirit. Because that that we can make a distinction there, I think sometimes as Christians. We're not doing this just to check off a box and to do it. But rather we need to be really seeking the Holy Spirit in that. And so sometimes I think that also comes with having those maybe harder conversations where someone really feels like this is the direction in their life, but you sort of have to talk with them and say, you know, brother or sister, I really feel like, you know, perhaps this could be a a another area that you might really thrive and flourish in. So I think as a pastor, like I I'm just coming back to that. I just love it. We have to be so active in our shepherding to really identify leaders and then to really guide them along the way so they can continue to to continue the work of the Lord. speaker-2: Good, Adrian. I think one of the things that that you're addressing, and I'm I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, it is the issue of maturity because there's assumed maturity, there's assumed markers that we have as pastors, like, ⁓ they're here every week, maybe they came from another church, they found us intentionally, those kind of things. So I'm gonna put them in charge. But doing what you call active shepherding is getting beyond some of the assumptions and starting to really get into Where is this person really at? Because volunteering is not a metric of maturity per se. Ready to lead, ready to shepherd, ready to care for souls in the same way that we're seeking to grow and be mature ourselves as pastors. So I really like what you say there, Adrian. Like active shepherding requires us to get past some assumptions and and what Daniel was saying earlier, just to start asking more questions of accountability, right? Deeper insight and looking for some ⁓ transparency in the people that we're wanting to raise up and empower for leadership. Yeah. speaker-1: I I think when it comes to anything in life, if you have no intentionality, you can't do anything great. And I think you have to be intentional as a pastor, like what Adrian, what you're saying, is being, you know, actively amongst the sheep. So you're knowing the gifts, you're seeing that. But when we talk about a pipeline, y we want to proactively pursue intentionality with people's lives. And so like the culture in our church is we tell people who we ask people who's your apprentice? Who are you looking for? Who are you seeing? So they are proactively seeing potential, but they're also saying, now come along with me as I follow Christ. Sort of that, hey, taste and see. And so as they're in relationship, they can test character, they can develop character, and ⁓ they can process what the path is for discipleship and for leadership. Why do I do this? Why don't you come 15 minutes early before a community group and let's pray and stay 15 minutes late so let's talk about some of the mistakes or some things we need to develop on. And and those type of things. And so I think with developing leaders you have to be intentional. Like Peter said, exercise the gifts that God's given you. We need to be able to be proactively teaching people, look for those gifts and specifically try to develop people in ways that you see the spirit leading you to develop them. Yeah. Yeah, like I think for us in the pathway, the thing that I'm thinking of is just that a first initial what is our church and what are we all about? Many people have put a ⁓ newcomers class or ⁓ meet the pastors and elders, what's the vision, mission, vision ⁓ values of the church? Just something where we can for us personally have a once a month, once a quarter. Hey, if you're new here. We just want to explain things to you. Because oftentimes we're really good with getting people in community and then one on one and having a culture of discipleship. But some people just like they really need that picture. And we tend to give people the picture with a person, connect people with the person. But sometimes people want a pamphlet. And then they just want want things written down and saying, This is these are the five different ministries you have. Great. Thank you so much. So having classes, having structure in those ways are very, very helpful. And ⁓ for us, I think this year we're planning on trying to have some type of thing like that once a quarter for newcomers just to meet who's the leaders, what we believe, where we came from our history, and then where we're going. speaker-3: Yeah, Daniel, I I really like that a lot. I think that's ⁓ I think you hit on a lot of things, just the tendencies of some folks, different personalities. And ⁓ I really like this question. I've been thinking about it for a while now because, you know, it's just a a bit of vulnerability, I guess, just to to see where there might be a hole in our in our armor. I think for me, one place that feels unclear right now, if I can be candid with my own ministry experience, and this might also be because I'm juggling really two churches as they have this revitalization. is really opportunities. As of right now, the the biggest pathway toward discipleship in the churches where I minister is in serving. And so I understand and recognize that that can be there can be some bottlenecks there. And maybe somebody's not able to volunteer their time or you know whatever it happens to be. And so if I'm just candid with myself, I think I think having a a variety of options or, you know, avenues by which somebody can serve, I think that would be a really thing that could help me flourish in that invitation. So people don't see only particular avenues of serving and having that open invitation to say, you know, we'd like you to you know, if you feel led to lead in in this particular, you know, Bible study or something like that, you know, having those open invitations, I think maybe more regularly to the congregation might stir someone up to to see where they might fit in as a whole. But certainly I think it's ⁓ a vulnerable question because You know, all of us are ministering in different I'm sure just as as I'm talking, as you're talking, you're thinking of particular people or situations and stuff like that. I think there's just a lot of considerations we have to have as as pastors. And sometimes I'll land on this, I promise. Sometimes I think that l that actually lends us into a an area where we might want to ask other people to provide input because we're not gonna know all the answers. I'm not gonna know all the ways that folks can come in and and serve. We can invite those opinions or invite those, you know Where other people have have eyes to see things that maybe we don't.