S4E5: The Theology of Calling & Faithfulness

Billy Almaguer: All right, well, we are in for a treat for this next season of our cohort. And just for those who are listening, kind of the podcast and the video that we're creating here. And we're gonna be looking at over the next couple of sessions three theological lessons that I think that every pastor, every ministry leader, needs to wrestle with. And when I say needs to wrestle with, you're going to see as we continue to develop these themes. And so we're going to see over the next couple of sessions, we're going to wrestle some things. This very first session, we're going to begin to look, I think, where it all begins, which is the calling that as a ministry leader or pastor that that we should have. And really how do how do we wrestle that with faithfulness and really what's the theology? What is the what's the word say about that? And how can we kind of bring that up to the to the forefront of our minds? And so I am happy to end Introduce again, everybody knows your favorite co-host, Daniel. Daniel, why don't you say hi and let people know where you're at if they don't know? Daniel Williams: Hey everyone, I'm Daniel Williams. I had the joy of pastoring in South Florida at Redemption Church, a Calvary Chapel ⁓ church here in South Florida. And we've been able to see God do a lot of great work, especially in my family's heart and myself, as we have planted this church and God has moved us from ⁓ Washington State to South Florida to love people and make disciples. So we have the joy of doing that in this season. Billy Almaguer: Awesome. And it's my pleasure to introduce to you Dr. Gail Heidi, who is a professor of mine. You may or may not know, but I'm going to Western Seminary and he's been teaching the last couple of semesters, at least the classes that I've been in. And it's just ⁓ I find to be just an amazing person just because he's bivocational, he's a theologian, he's a believer ⁓ in the local church. And I have just learned so much. And so, Gail, I'd love for you to introduce yourself and let people know a little bit about you. Gale Heide: Thank you so much, Billy. It's just a pleasure really to be with you guys here today. It it's a lot of fun. I I have been accused on many occasions of of just being a builder. ⁓ you know, no matter how many degrees you have or or what you do for a living, it it always seems like we're looking for the ways to to take the foundation to the next level. And that's true of ministry, and it seems to fit really well with my by vocational aspect as well because I I'm building houses right now. I live in southwest Montana and ⁓ work as ⁓ construction manager for Habitat for Humanity. So I've got three houses and a remodel and an an addition going right now. So it ⁓ that I think that's what made Billy and my heart really resonate. I I love civils except for when I don't And and that so having a civil engineer in the class has always been a blast. But I've been a Bible college and seminary professor for now I guess over thirty years and just love ⁓ making disciples. That's what we do and and that's that's been my heart all along. So Billy Almaguer: Yeah, just so if those of you who are watching and are listening, I'm gonna put a link ⁓ to some information about Gilgs, you can look that up. But the reason why I got him on here, and especially for ⁓ this particular series that we're doing, is that he's got a lot of he's got a great way of communicating some real practical things ⁓ from the Word of God that I think from a theological standpoint, some of us can get kind of wrapped around the axle. But I I I'm highlighting this because you know, not only has Gail does have multiple degrees, and you can go look all that up. It's pretty amazing. ⁓ he has an extensive ⁓ background in teaching, but he's also part ⁓ and launching a seminary called Ascent Seminary, which again I'll put a link into the notes as well for you guys to check out because a lot of things that we're talking about are things that you can learn through kind of that continuing education, whether that's seminary, other places. But I would again point to something that is cohort-based, which Which this is going to be with the scent. And it's really designed to help pastors and ministry leaders, just like you and I, who are working, quote unquote, and maybe by vocational, to still have time to grow and equip ourselves in theology. Because I think that's something very practical, and I think that's something that's very helpful in the ministry. And so, with that said, I am excited to kick this off. And so, first thing again, as we're looking at, is we're looking at kind of the theology of calling and faithfulness, which I know sounds like a bunch of words that we just kind of put together, but I I wanna wrestle with something because I think sometimes in ministry, and I know Daniel and I, you know, we've been church planting, and and Gail, you've certainly been around a lot of churches and maybe have helped in a lot of different capacities, but when you think about getting into the church and defining success, that can take a lot of different looks. We can see it a lot of different ways. And I think, you know, the question I have kind of jumping into this, and Daniel, I want to ask you this, but you know, how do we define as pastors and leaders typically, how would we define, because I know you have a real heady answer, but now how would a a normal kind of pastor leader such as myself and maybe others who might be listening to this answer, how are we, you know, what does winning look like on a Sunday? What are things that we would say, you know, hey, this is typically in the winning bucket? What are things that you would think that'd be? Daniel Williams: Are you talking to me or are you talking to Gail? ⁓ you want me to get very practical? Here's here's the win. Obedience. When we talk about theology of calling, faithfulness, our job as Christians, let alone ministry leaders, are just to listen and to obey. And so when we think about faithfulness, we assume that there is a God who speaks, and when we hear him direct us through his word, through his spirit. Billy Almaguer: Yeah, Daniel, I'm talking to you, Daniel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm good. We're going practical. Gale Heide: Yeah. Billy Almaguer: Obedient. Daniel Williams: We are called to worship him, give him worth, and obey. So it's a reasonable act of us to just listen to God, to worship him, and when he says goes, and we want to be faithful to that call. Billy Almaguer: And I and I agree with you. So you're gonna get a gold star for that. And I think that ⁓ I think we're all gonna give you gold stars for that. But I think sometimes if if we're if we're not if we're gonna be honest, I think sometimes there's Sundays where we might think you might be the church planner that's just starting and you put out 60 chairs and you're like, the the win is if I get twenty-five of those filled, or you might be Gale Heide: Yeah. Daniel Williams: Thank you. ⁓ thank you. Billy Almaguer: you know, in in a place where you're doing a a beach baptism and and and a church shows up, you're like, and the win is if X amount get baptized. Sometimes we can tie and begin to tie, I think, metrics. And and we might know, yes, we're called and we might think, yeah, that's the foundational piece. But it's easy for us, I think, as as a church ministry leaders and pastors to kind of drift over and to think, you know, the metric is the thing that defines success. And so I think the bigger question of today is, you know, what if we need to kind of rethink From a theological standpoint, and maybe kind of wrestle with this a little bit, which is why we have an expert on here to help us wrestle with this a little bit. But what if we've been defining that wrong? And if you think about again ministry, you know, with church plants and you know, Daniel, you're like a church planting machine. And so when you think about church plants and all the different things that people are doing, you know, numbers, growth, visibility, you know, your social media, your marketing, and and then comparison kind of all comes in there. It really introduces a lot of pressure. upon the ministry leader and and really the lead that you the folks kind of doing the ministry. And so Gil, I think for you, the kind of the question I have is, you know, while I can look at this and say, yeah, I think I've experienced this pressure. Maybe there's been others who are watching this and maybe who will listen to this later. I may say, yeah, I've experienced those pressures of numbers and growth and visibility and comparison. But I'm just want to know kind of your perspective. ⁓ is this something new? Or do you think that the church, the the organization of the church and what we've kind of seen in a biblical standpoint, is this something that we can see maybe has been wrestled with before? Gale Heide: ⁓ man. I I think we get pushed from so many directions to define our success according to what the world defines, ⁓ really, which would be numbers or budget or size of your staff or you know, how many baptisms have you had and so forth and and it it's and it's like Jesus seemed to face ⁓ a lot of those types of pressures all the time too. I mean, there were people telling him how he should be doing his ministry on a regular basis. You know, Jesus, why don't your disciples wash their hands? Jesus, why don't your disciples keep this particular celebration? And and Jesus would have to have to deal with that. I'm sure he smiled as he said, you know, you guys really don't know what you're talking about. But he ⁓ he was gracious, but at the same time Jesus stayed on mission. ⁓ I I'm I'm mindful of I Think it's in the Gospel of Luke when when Jesus had decided that it was time for him to go up to Jerusalem and he knew this was going to be his last time, he set his face to go to Jerusalem, it said. And knowing that the cross awaited him. And and it's like, boy, what a a wonderful image of someone who is dedicated to the mission, who is dedicated to ⁓ his task here on earth. Daniel Williams: Mm-hmm. Gale Heide: And and not going to get distracted by what other people are telling him to do. I mean, he explained to his d his own disciples, guys, I'm gonna go to Jerusalem. They're going to crucify me. And what does Peter do? He turns right around and says, Lord, no, nope, nope. Stop talking like that, Lord. This is not gonna happen to you. It and Jesus had pressure on him all the time. It's like, Lord, we saw these other guys who were. casting out demons. Do you want us to call fire down out of heaven to consume them? And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, wonderful guys to have on your staff, but at the at times you just gotta rein them in. And ⁓ so you asked the question, is it new, Billy? ⁓ I would say not at all. ⁓ in and I w the culture may shift, the culture may change, the questions may even change a little bit for us, but But I'm sure trying to define our ministry, trying to define our success ⁓ by world standards is not at all new. ⁓ and that's why I I really appreciate the the word that you used right at the beginning, ⁓ the word faithfulness. ⁓ I think that is so key. ⁓ because ⁓ and and Daniel you express this as well that that just being faithful to What the Lord has set before you. And and that may be just one day at a time. ⁓ I I'd get up and and regularly try to tell myself, okay, today I can be faithful. ⁓ and then that strings together into maybe this week. Okay, we've we've had seven straight days. Yeah, it's a good week. ⁓ but yes, just just continuing on that path of faithfulness, that's I I think so key. So thank you. Daniel Williams: Mm-hmm. Billy Almaguer: No, that's great. That's ⁓ good information. And I know this as a church, we've been journeying through the gospel of Matthew and just even seeing, you know, as the crowds were coming in in in chapter eight and Jesus is like, Yeah, we're going to the other side. And ⁓ you know, and and and this isn't picking on churches that are big or anything like that. No, I think there's that that's amazing what God is doing. But but I think again, not all are churches are gonna be the same. Not all leaders are going to do the same things. And it's that reminder just as the gold star winner a very very early on, Daniel said it's about obedience. So and I think that's ⁓ key. Daniel Williams: Yeah. Well, I I think what's hard for us as ministry leaders is this isn't an issue sometimes of right and wrong. If God just said do this, it'd be great. And I remember God speaking in my heart, hey, plan a church, plan churches. Great. That's the call. So I want to do that. But I could do that a thousand different ways. So now it's not a right or wrong answer. It's a wisdom or wise or foolish thing. And God gives us free range. And we have to be comfortable with the wisdom God gives us. And I think sometimes He gives us that free will, our free range to listen to others, have advice, be situational, so we actually depend on Him more. ⁓ because we all we want the step by step, but we plan our ways, but the Lord directs our steps. And that's where it comes in, is like, okay, what what is the measure of excess success? I know I'm supposed to pastor people, but then it goes to, well, how do I do that? And we often compare one another, which Paul said this is not wise, in second Corinthians ten, we compare with one another because we know the goal, but we just don't know how to do that in a healthy way or a wise way. And that's where the friction and tension comes in. Cause if God just said do A, B, and C, man, that'd be awesome. But he also gives us capability to do things in multiple different ways. Gale Heide: Yeah. Billy Almaguer: Good, good stuff there. And I I would encourage that, you know, for those who may be listening and are watching, you might be coming out of a Sunday where you're you're thinking, man, I feel a little convicted. I've been measuring, you know, I've been looking at the numbers. And again, there's nothing wrong with with doing that, but I think to to the point and the heart behind all this is to really help us to just make sure that we're defining success, so to speak, as we're going to kind of journey through this a little bit more. on the basis of the calling. And I think to Daniel's point, not knowing what to do and maybe we're looking at other churches or church down the street does it this way. So maybe we can start this way. It's like there's a lot of practical ways to do that. And and ⁓ that's as the Lord leads. In all honesty, but again, this is comes to the bigger question and of theological significance to me, and I think for us today, just kind of thinking of this pressure isn't new, that even Jesus had to deal with br people bringing this pressure and expectations upon him. But the obedience is what is key here. And so as we kind of think through this again, faithfulness and fruitfulness, there's always that tension, like, hey, I'm being faithful. And you you might be listening to this and you may be ministering, and you might be in a ⁓ quote unquote small church, or or maybe you're in a large church and you're thinking, well, maybe you know, salvations are down, or or or or discipleship doesn't seem to be happening the way it was. And so we're we've all got these tensions that we deal with. of faithfulness and fruitfulness. That tension's always gonna be there. And and it should for good reason because you know, if there's things that need to change, obviously we need to be praying about But again, as I'm reminded and and you know You know, both maybe Gail and Daniel, you may have some words to say here, but you know, as far as I can think through, prophets often saw very little visible success, like right off the bat, right? I mean, it's they may not have ever seen it, you know, right off the bat. I mean, and so if you're doing the Lord's work, that's that's the win, being obedient and doing it. Gale Heide: Yeah. Billy Almaguer: And what we find is that the work that God has called us to often unfolds very slowly and can be invisible in a lot of sense. And it may not be like the megachurch or even the new term, the giga church. I heard there's a giga church now term being used. I'm like giga church. Okay. So it may not be like all that, which is great, people coming to faith, but that doesn't mean we need to be discouraged or anything like that. And so, Gil, kind of asking another question here. But maybe some thoughts on maybe how we, when I say we, anyone who's kind of listening to this, whether you are, you know, ministering in a small group capacity, or if you're a pastor or some sort, or you're just leading your family, whatever the call may be, but how should we frame, you know, calling and outcomes from a theological perspective? What are some thoughts there on how we should frame that? Gale Heide: Yeah, I I think I'd start with a friend of mine. ⁓ I actually have several friends, former students as well, who ⁓ ministered in Turkey for a number of years. And ⁓ just recently, I don't know if you guys are aware of this or not, in the last year to two years, Turkey has taken a a different turn, ⁓ where they used to be a little more open toward mission activity, Christian activity, ⁓ that has changed significantly. And ⁓ my ⁓ friends and former students were asked to leave Turkey and ⁓ were put on a list so that they could never return. And they had some significant things happening, really were ⁓ enjoying what the Lord was doing there. ⁓ and then all of a sudden nothing. Daniel Williams: Hm. Gale Heide: ⁓ they have to leave the country and and they were given a very short time in which to do so and and it's like okay so let's evaluate. Was your time there valuable? ⁓ was it worthwhile? If you had to do it over again, would you still go to Turkey? And to a person they all said, yes, we definitely would would do what we did because we felt like we invested well. Even though, you know, a couple of the churches maybe had two families that over the course of ten years really came to know the Lord. But but is it worth that one sheep? ⁓ you know, I'm mindful of of Jesus' story in Matthew ⁓ eighteen when he talks about the one lost lamb, ⁓ the one out of a hundred. And and it it obviously he went to great lengths to go after that one. And and that That's a wonderful prelude into church reconciliation, which is the rest of Matthew 18. But it's also ⁓ a good reminder that Jesus is mindful of the one lost sheep. Jesus is is we're told that the angels in heaven rejoice over one sinner who repents. So is it worth that one, going after that one? Definitely. And and I I y you keep coming back to it, Billy, because I think the the dichotomy is between success in numbers and success in ministry. And ⁓ and we usually Daniel Williams: Yeah. Gale Heide: We usually put the burden on those who have the small church, ⁓ those who who don't have a lot of conversions, those who don't have a lot of baptisms. I I have been, I've pastored three small churches. I'm part of a larger church, probably about 1,500 on any given Sunday, and and an elder in that church and have been for now, I guess, 30 years. And and I feel almost like the pressure is more on us as a larger church. We have our our work cut out for us, you know. I mean, it's like I cannot know everybody in that church. I cannot care for or shepherd everyone in that church. And and I feel almost like I have a harder job with more people ⁓ than I would with fewer. And and I I kind of almost wish sometimes that the Lord would shrink us because it's like, ⁓ Lord, what do we do with all these people? ⁓ you know, the fields are white. Daniel Williams: Mm-hmm. Gale Heide: to harvest and and pray for laborers because ⁓ we got a lot of work to do but i was just reading this morning in matthew twenty five the parable of the talents and it it was interesting to me that the the Master gave to one five talents, to another two talents, and to the third one talent. And the y we know the story. The five-talent did well, ⁓ well done, my good and faithful servant. The two-talent guy did well, well done, my good and faithful servant. ⁓ but what's interesting to me is what the master says after that to both of those guys. ⁓ he says to them, You have been faithful over little. I will set you over much. So I wonder if we maybe have the wrong mindset, even about megachurches, or now this is a new word for me. Thank you, Billy, giga churches. I wonder if we have the wrong mindset. I I think maybe it's still being faithful over little. and and It's not a celebrity status that comes with a large church. It's not ⁓ necessarily greater success, but maybe greater work that we have, a greater burden that we have. I I I mindful of Martin Luther when he was told how much he had to do in a day, and ⁓ his helper who was telling him this said to him, You know, I don't think you're gonna have time ⁓ to pray for your normal two hours this morning because there's so much on your schedule. And and Luther said, you know, you're right. There is a lot on my schedule. I can't pray for two hours. I need to pray for three. and ⁓ we I I'm convinced we have it upside down. So that's why I so appreciate this topic because measuring success in terms of faithfulness Billy Almaguer: That's good. Gale Heide: is so key. Have we done well with what we've been given? Because really anything we're given is still, it seems like, in the Lord's eyes, still little. ⁓ so maybe we need to redefine the terms. I don't know. What do you think, Daniel? Are we we getting it wrong when we think in terms of numbers and and try to attach numbers to to growth or to success in what we're doing and In our churches. Daniel Williams: No, because the Bible says that God gives grace our gifts liberally, and in First Corinthians it talks about a capacity. So the the question is never a small or large number because God can give capacity, one liter a hundred people, another leader ten, another leader a thousand. That's all grace. We're just be stewards, and I think that's an important word, because when you think about calling or even what we received, everything is little to the Lord. I mean his church is a global church and there's millions upon millions of people. So he's just giving us a little amount of his church in a certain region to be faithful to. And ⁓ I think what gets discouraging is ⁓ people that are small wanna get big and people that are big want to get small. That's the system, that's the play. Because now you have a different burden. I think the burden of numbers comes really from our Our our effort of trying to be faithful to the Lord, of trying to plan a church, but we we got some of the business world perspective because businesses, they in order to give loans, they measure by nickels and noses, right? So if you want to build a building, which we know the church is the people, but if you want to build a building, they're gonna say, What are your finances? What are your numbers? And so they're gonna want to know, can you sustain this? And that's where this is crept in, where we think if there's a large amount of people, Then we can do more ministry, more buildings, more stuff. And God doesn't actually say that. In fact, He gives us when we think about theology, not just Jesus, but you go back to the Old Testament. You have Jeremiah, the weeping prophet, for the but the southern kingdom. But you also have Hosea as a great example. I mean, he was pretty much the northern Israel prophet that had really no fruit and did some hard things to show to show, hey, it's not about numbers, but God spoke. And Romans 15, 4 says, These things are written so that we may have. Gale Heide: Yeah. Daniel Williams: Hope and encouragement. So we can look and and not measure our success by the numbers, but then you flip it around. And what happens in Acts? First message, Peter, the birth, 3,000 get saved. And then what happens? ⁓ deacons have to be installed because there's such a burden and a weight and ministry and problems. More people, more problems. And so now it's not an either or, it's a both and whatever God's place you to do. Gale Heide: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Daniel Williams: ⁓ if you have a large amount of numbers, it's just a different measurement or a different way that you need to go about it. ⁓ rather than trying to continue to build and build and build, you need to break systems down so you can actually have time to shepherd. Like you're saying, you're longing actually for that conversation and wish you knew everyone. ⁓ and you should implement those strategies. If you're if you're smaller, you may need to implement certain strategies. So I don't think faithfulness is equated to fruit. ⁓ But I do think that God does want us to be fruitful because he asks no no matter what situation or season we're in, he asks us to abide in him. And when we do that, we will be fruitful with whatever he decides to give us. Gale Heide: Can I push on that for just a second? I I I'd not push back. I I really want to I want to ask a question because I think you've sparked something ⁓ really critical, Daniel. Is is then the problem a problem of measuring success, or is it a problem of joy? in other words, if if we have i it seems as though we go home a w way more content if we set up sixty chairs and a hundred people show up. Daniel Williams: Yeah. No. Gale Heide: ⁓ but what if we set up those sixty chairs Billy and and only, you know, twenty sh or twenty five show up? ⁓ is the problem that that we are dissatisfied, that we don't have joy in the people that God has entrusted to us, ⁓ and really not a problem of numbers at all. Daniel Williams: I think so, because when w we're talking about ⁓ fruit and measurements and outcomes. Like most of the world defines people and their giftedness and their leadership and their capacity. That's outcome. But the Lord you're talking about, He measures ⁓ and He wants to give us fruit. That's joy, that's love, that's peace. When a hundred we we want a hundred people and only fifty come, he can give us peace. So I think it's really motivation and in why we do things. Just like a a large mega church, you can have a great godly man of God and great pastor there, but you could also have someone where his motivation is he finds his identity in being a public figure. And how did only the Lord knows sometimes those things. But I do think it is an eternal thing. I think the the attitude or the question we need to ask Billy, and you can give insight 'cause we we've been talking a lot, but w why do you do what you do? Billy Almaguer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Daniel Williams: How important is motivation when it comes to doing the things of the Lord? Because if we're talking about faithfulness and I I'm I'm referring to like, hey, we're doing it for worship and God's value, what happens when you do things for the wrong motivation and even get the right outcome? 'Cause that happens a lot. Billy Almaguer: Yeah, I'll use a term that I just made up in my head, but I think goes along with this, and I'm calling it grounded motivation. I think we all have some form of motivation, ministry leaders, like something inspires us. It could have been our own story of coming to faith and how the local church or people minister to us and we've came to know the Lord. I mean, a lot of different things can motivate us. But in terms of like calling, I think there's something a little bit more. I'm I'm I'm not saying get rid of the spreadsheets of counting how many chairs you set up set up versus how many you feel. Like keep all your spreadsheets. Keep please keep your spreadsheets. Okay. That's gonna make someone's heart very full. So please keep your spreadsheets. But I think what we're wrestling with is something a little bit different. I want to share it through ⁓ a short story, like a one minute story, but there was ⁓ at the church I was on staff at before we had planted, ⁓ there was a pastor there their name, Pastor Kevin. He's one of our overseers ⁓ at our church now. I'm just a great, godly man. ⁓ and just just as a good mentor. But anytime, you know, we would share a message, or whoever was sharing a message that day, he would be, you know, within the you know, first couple of minutes, would be alongside that pastor or so. And and say wouldn't say, hey, that was a great message, or wow, that was good. He would just say, Did did you do what God called you to do with that with that with your time? And you know, hopefully you would say yes, the answer is yes, because you had been praying and you know, you yes, you know, maybe you could have said something different, but no, I felt like I was faithful. And then he turned around, it's like, well, then that was a good message, because the point wasn't what you said and and the delivery of it. Yes, you want to be correct in the things you say. But it was more of were you responding to how God was moving your spirit? And I think that's that's key for me, having been part of larger churches, have been part of smaller churches and church plants. It's like, are you doing what God has called you to do? Because you're a piece of the puzzle. You're you're in a ⁓ a point of time in redemptive history where God has allowed you to have a space in the kingdom that he's that he's ushering in and and he and he's growing. And and at some point we're gonna cease to exist and Gale Heide: Mm-hmm. Billy Almaguer: Some other people are going to be doing that right. But I so to me when I think of that, it's a it's a ⁓ a motivation that's needs to be reconnected back to the calling for me. ⁓ because success, we as I think we've hit this horse several times now, isn't measured in the traditional ways of the business or the the counts. Or something like that. You know, I I do count every weekend. We just had weekend number 544 at church and ⁓ of our church plant. And I count them all. And you know, and I and I and I can graph the numbers. And I'm like, yeah, it's summer, man. There's a lot of people traveling. But I just still, even when I came off ⁓ the platform this weekend, I just remembered, you know, did did you say, just as Kevin would always say, and he was, he's not with us. He's at he's still up in North Carolina. But I just remember, you know, were you faithful to what God has called you to do with that time, with that block of scripture? Yes. Then that's the win. Okay. Then we move forward. So Daniel Williams: Yeah. Let let me ask you let me ask you guys this because any ministry leader knows it takes a while to be released of this. Okay? So you're you're gonna get you're gonna go after that hundred and eventually you get that hundred and you're like and then it doesn't satisfy. How long did it take you to realize numbers don't satisfy and even your own goals? I want to have three points or teach within 30 minutes or or disciple these many people. And eventually, if you don't have God as your ultimate goal, you can make a good thing a God thing and it disappoints. So I from my ministry experience, it's taken me years to just finally be like, I count numbers, but they don't they don't motivate me anymore. Right. So how long did it take you guys with that struggle? And do you even still struggle with that today? Gale Heide: Hmm. Billy Almaguer: Yeah, I would say I think y you always have goals. And I and I'll say, you know, as a real practical human, ⁓ as as a as a human, you you you struggle with kind of things you put in front of you, but it again it's it's regrounding yourself. You don't wanna you don't wanna dabble and stay in that headspace And think, ⁓ I wish A, B, and C or whatever. But I think for me, when I planted a church, ⁓ there was a tension of, you know, A, Lord, are you sure you called us here? And then you you see people come. It's like, well, I'm just kind of running the numbers. And if, you know, X amount of the church gives X amount, like we're gonna need a lot more people to pay the bills around here because I don't know how we're gonna pay rent. And and so then then you kind of start in the back of your mind, you kind of know what those numbers are probably gonna be. ⁓ but I would say for me, it was probably year two. ⁓ you know, I think the the church planning graveyard year, ⁓ typically that year two or three where you're thinking, man, it's gonna I think it's gonna work. Like all of our support had dried up. Which was fine because we were s we were self supporting and self standing at that point. And it's like, okay, okay, Lord, I guess this is what you want us to do. And it's almost like one of those moments for me as we were meeting in a movie theater with the wonderful smell of popcorn every week. And it was like, okay, God is enough and he he's given us enough and he's sustaining us. And it may not be like the church down the street, or it may not have been a certain way, but it but it's his way. And I think that's a good thing. And so I think for me it took me a couple of years of getting into it. ⁓ and and really kind of letting go of not perfectionism, but expectations that were mine and not his. Gale Heide: Hmm. I'm gonna change your question a little bit, Daniel, ⁓ and ⁓ it it you'll get the point immediately. how long will the Lord require us to have faith ⁓ in order to do ministry? ⁓ because and I don't know, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but but that's kind of the way I think about it, because ⁓ it's like Man, if everything ⁓ went the way I liked and and I was able to you know, I I'm bivocational, Billy's bivocational. It it's like if we were able to quit our jobs and just do ministry, boy, that would be so nice. That would be the goal. And then but what's the next horizon? And and it's like I almost feel like being at this point, ⁓ starting a school again and and ⁓ wrestling with with those things again it's it's like okay I still have to have faith and that's really really a good thing ⁓ because if I if I start to get content or or ⁓ fat or ⁓ if I start to get fat you know it's like get lazy and and just rest on what the Lord has already done ⁓ then obviously there's something wrong. ⁓ And and chances are good that the Lord will will not be able to use that. Obviously he can use it, but but if I start yeah, just resting on my laurels, ⁓ it's it's not gonna not gonna work. So yeah, I don't I don't know if that's a fair assessment of your question or not, Daniel, but that's what I Daniel Williams: Yeah. What No, it's a it's a good assessment because that's what I was trying to get to is yes, we may have gotten to it or acknowledged it, being self-aware, right? We're talking about this, but I want to make sure people know that we're not experts. The Bible says it's from faith to faith. And, you know, godly ambition is a good thing, but you know, you can have goals and you're it's always going to require faith. And ⁓ it seems to me there's more seasons. I'm very content in certain seasons, but then it's like, ⁓ with this goal, I'm really not. I mean, I've been bi vocational for over ten years as well. And so, ⁓ you know, I think all of us would want more time to do more work. And then we realize, ⁓ the work is actually worshiping God through my job and look at that opportunity he gave me. And then we're like, Nope, never mind. I want to paycheck and do something else, you know? And so it g there's it goes back and forth sometimes. Sometimes I feel great after a message, other times I beat myself and say, ⁓ I wish I would have said it better. And it's always this, I think, continual thing that we have to go back and bring to the Lord. Gale Heide: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel Williams: ⁓ with this ambition that we have and with the goals and just like I love what you said. It's just it's a matter of faith and we're talking about faithfulness. Praise God that He is faithful even when we're faithless 'cause he cannot deny Himself. So you know, it's good to continue to remain in God and trust, Okay, Lord, this is what you're telling me to do in this season and to remain faithful in that. So yeah, I don't know. Gale Heide: Amen. Billy Almaguer: Good stuff there. And I that was encouraging to me because, you know, I think I I kind of walk down the church planning trap where, you know, you just kind of focus on yourself for a second. And ⁓ go, I love the way you have how you frame that because you if we step back and look at the bigger picture, I mean, you're doing godly work. You've been doing godly work. I mean, all of us have been, but I kind of look at just even you know, even it with your statement of saying, I still have to be faithful in this next season. Well, the season doesn't end until it's over, right? Until it's all over. So that I think to me that was the great reminder. So for everyone who's listening, just whatever that season looks like, it's this is a short-lived thing because it's like we got to finish the game and we're always gonna going to deal with that. And so kind of reminded me, you know, as we're kind of thinking through some of these things again, that our natural human desire, which we have to just realize and and call it for what it is, but there's this desire for control and predictive outcomes. If I pull this lever or do this and ⁓ these things will happen, which isn't necessarily bad, but it that's not necessarily always the answer. And I think sometimes we, you know, have highlighted, you know, we we can even through this conversation highlight that there's kind of even a visible need ⁓ for for validation in in the things that we're seeing in ministry and what we call growth. ⁓ but that's not may may not always be visible. And then I think sometimes, you know, as ministry leaders, it may feel like it's absent. We may not be able to count anything. We just don't see the growth. And oftentimes we we think of that silence, so to speak, as an absence or a disinterest from God. And that's not true. That's not part, that's why he he's called us to something. He's not called us to kind of the outcome. He's called us to faithfulness and he produces the fruit and the fruitfulness. And we get to count that if we want. But the most important thing is just kind of being faithful there. And so kind of looking at this next little piece here, Gail, I got a question for you. But I'm kind of just thinking, like, you know, when you think about scripture and you think about the word of God, and maybe there might come something to your mind here as as we kind of play around with this idea. But success, I want to say, is, you know, is it measured by scale or is it measured by submission? Gale Heide: Okay. Billy Almaguer: You know, I think that's kind of a question we can look at. And again, it doesn't mean that scale is bad, but I'm just reframing, I think, in in terms of how we as ministry leaders and pastors and leaders really measure success. Is it really defined by a scale of something, or is it defined by submission? Gale Heide: Yeah, I and and it it I'm gonna go back to Jesus again where el where else could we go? But ⁓ but Jesus had so many opportunities ⁓ and if you mean by scale, ⁓ I'm thinking of John chapter six where Jesus has a crowd and and he whittled that crowd down to just the the twelve, it seems like by the end of the chapter they've all wandered away or walked away saying, This is a hard teaching, who can accept it? And ⁓ even the disciples, you know, ⁓ Jesus has to ask them, ⁓ are you too going to walk away? And and they say, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. And and Jesus Just didn't get fascinated with the crowds. ⁓ he knew that his role, his goal, was really to submit to the Father's will. ⁓ to such an extent that in Philippians two, I mean he endured death on and not just any death, but death on a cross, Paul tells us in Philippians two. So the the most shameful kind of death that could be imagined in that culture and that time, Jesus endured it for the sake of submitting to the Father. ⁓ ⁓ so I guess in answer to your question, Billy, I I I can do no no better than to think of of how did Jesus handle this kind of of problem or or demand on his schedule or his time or his goals and aspirations. It was it was constantly submission. And and submission maybe it ⁓ coming off of that I could ask another question ⁓ something like well is is sub Submission necessarily passive ⁓ or can we actively submit ⁓ when it comes to following the will of God and and where does ambition lie ⁓ within that? Is it fair to have ambition, or should we ⁓ just sit and wait and and expect the Lord to somehow drop something from heaven? Billy Almaguer: That's that's a great one. Daniel Williams: I I I want to answer that because I think the proactive of Jesus, Luke five sixteen, says he often withdrew to be with the Father and to pray when going to desolate places. We know in John a lot he said, I only do what my father tells me. And I think we need to have a different framework. There's nothing wrong with ambition. It says godly ambition. There's nothing wrong with scale. We should want as many people as possible to come into the kingdom of God. We should want if we have a Bible study, we should want Gale Heide: Yeah. Daniel Williams: thousands of millions of people to hear the word of God and and as many people as possible. But I think that how we get scale and how we get fruit matters and it's through submission because what Jesus did is he submitted to the Father's will and he had greater impact because through that he died for the whole world. So it's it it it looked it looked reverse because he was just investing in the twelve men and then even had a few handful of people. But listen, let me just tell you if you're a ministry leader, you know this. Gale Heide: Amen. Yeah. Daniel Williams: Because what happens if you invest in all these people, but you don't invest in your family and or your your marriage, it all goes away. You can have greater impact if you actually do the things God's called you to and and start with your family and then the people that He's given you that responsibility with, you are making a big difference. You may not just see it now. Because the kingdom of God is something different. It goes into the ground, dies, and then it bears fruit. So if you want great scale, think you get great scale through submission. Gale Heide: Amen. Daniel Williams: Because often we want a whole bunch of fruit, but what happens if our branch isn't strong enough with character and the fruit comes and it breaks us? Then that's not healthy either. So ⁓ I love that, Billy, that scale or submission and just that that attitude of measurement of going to get scale you need submission. Gale Heide: Yeah. Yeah. Billy Almaguer: Hmm. Yeah, and that's kind of the the point of kind of wrestling with this is that again, my hope and prayer is that as people are listening to this, I mean, some of you may have had a great weekend, some of you may not have had a good weekend in in the ways that we would normally define it. You know, of course, maybe you were obedient to the call, but maybe it was just still a hard weekend. And you may have come out of the weekend feel like, man, I feel like I'm failing. I feel like I'm not hitting the mark. But again, hopefully the encouragement has been. know are you doing what God's called you to do? Is there an obedience there? Is there submitting to his will, which is again why we wanted to bring out kind of the theological elements to this, you know, look in at the word and see what we can glean from the word of God. ⁓ because I think the question, you know, that many of us answer or that or struggle to answer is like, well if I'm doing what God's called me to do, why is it so hard? Gale Heide: Mm-hmm. Billy Almaguer: Why is it so difficult? Why, why, you know, if I could just, you know, be full-time, or if I could just have that land, or if I could just, you know, whatever it may be. But I think, you know, in terms of ⁓ of kind of a quote that sticks out in my mind, it's a quote by a gentleman by the name of Crawford La Ritz, ⁓ in one of his books, ⁓ Leadership as an identity, but he's talking about Moses and he's talking about, you know, the life of Moses and And he had this quote in there, and I'm paraphrasing it, but it was, you know, on the way to doing something for God, you become someone that God can use as well. I mean, he's he's working in us, he's he's changing us and growing us in so many ways. And so, pastor, ministry leader, whoever's listening or and or watching, like if you feel like, man, this things are failing, I just wanna encourage you to kind of reframe perhaps what your what your what what the mark is. Which is why we have, you know, this discussion going on with Gail, who who's able to kind of give us some theological insight into this. And so getting ready to kind of land the plane on this topic, I just want to ask you guys, maybe there's some encouragement that you would want to share with those who are watching and or listening. But if someone is feeling like, man, I'm not, if I'm I'm not hitting the mark or I feel like I'm doing all these things wrong and I'm I'm failing right now. ⁓ what are some things that you can kind of maybe encourage them with to maybe just some words and some things you might want to share? And I'll Daniel or or if you want to go first and then we'll kind of wrap it up with Gil. Gale Heide: Yeah. Daniel Williams: Sure. I I would just say this the reason why we're talking about this is to renew our mind, to shape our actions and attitude and heart towards what God has said. And so, make sure that you're you're in God's word, hearing from the spirit of even what the measure of success is and talking and being real with your emotions, with your goals, ⁓ those type of things. And I would even give two recommendations of books. You had mentioned Crawford Laritz, it's a great book. ⁓ There's a old school book, Liberating Ministry from the Success Syndrome by R. Kent and Barbara Hughes. ⁓ it's a really great book, especially the first half of defining like, well, what what is success and why is this pressure on me? There's another modern book by Sean Lovejoy called The Measure of Success to help us and reframe what what is success? Why what do I have to have faith? Does it ever do? And you'll see that you're not alone in this struggle. ⁓ the reason why the Bible says do not give up is because we are gonna feel like we're gonna give up. So therefore, my beloved brethren, ⁓ be steadfast, immovable, abound always abounding in the work of the Lord, for you know that you do not labor in vain. And this struggle is real. We all struggle with it. And so continue to be wrap your mind around ⁓ the prophets and Jesus and these these people of faith, because we're surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses that we can actually understand the struggles we deal with is real. Gale Heide: Okay. Daniel Williams: And God's spirit is powerful enough to help us get through this thing ⁓ and the things he's called us to. It's for our good and his glory. So just keep going, keep pressing in and ⁓ yeah, I would just say continue to look to God's word in these real things that ministry leaders like us, we deal with. Gale Heide: I'm just gonna remind us of something that we all know, and I'm sure if you're a pastor today, if you're a missionary today, if you are in ministry today as a ministry leader, ⁓ I'm not going to tell you something new, but if we find our satisfaction in ministry, we will always be disappointed. ⁓ our ultimate satisfaction has to be in the Lord. And I that's why I appreciate where where Daniel took us because it it it's the only thing that is going to really satisfy is the Lord himself. ⁓ taste and see that the Lord is good. This almost tells us. It it's the the great cloud of witnesses that Daniel mentioned. That that's right after Hebrews eleven, which is a a whole chapter of people who ⁓ technically on the the discussion of scale failed. ⁓ you know, I mean I mean, guys who time after time didn't have the great crowds following them or were ultimately killed for the sake of their faith, sawn in two. ⁓ it's like, wow, that that kind of faithfulness, that kind of of commitment really only stems from ⁓ following after the Lord with our whole heart. ⁓ it if if we're if we're so enamored with ministry that that is our our standard of success, you will you will always be disappointed and failure will be at your doorstep. ⁓ It's it's gotta be so yeah, thank you Daniel for the book recommendations. I ⁓ the recommendation that I would have, I've just been reading recently again, ⁓ is a story that that from the world's eyes would be a story of failure. It's Dietrich Bonhoeffer's cost of discipleship. ⁓ it cost him his life. And he didn't see ⁓ the the the multiple fruits of his labor. He only saw the end of a hangman's news. Daniel Williams: Mm. Gale Heide: And that that because he was so committed to Christ. ⁓ so what I pray for for you and for myself is that my commitment will be first and foremost to the Lord Jesus at that level, because then ⁓ all the rest is gravy. Daniel Williams: Yeah. Billy Almaguer: that's that's great. And I well just want to thank you guys both for being on. Daniel and Gail. Just it's it's it's a pleasure to kind of wrestle through this. And no doubt I know we all gain something from this and especially those who ⁓ you know if you weren't if you're catching this later on hopefully this ⁓ brought value to you. But I'll leave you with this kind of thought as ⁓ as we get ready to close things out. But at the end of the day, you know, when we're standing before the Lord, I I I can't imagine that he's gonna have an express line for people who have certain ministry sizes or you know, you hit all the check boxes. It comes down to just faithfulness. And that's really the question that that's the accountability piece. That's what we're gonna really answer to. Were you faithful to what I've given to you? What are you faithful to what I've called you to? And so gentlemen, I do appreciate you wrestling with this. And again, as a reminder, ⁓ I, you know, I I can't advocate enough for ministry leaders, pastors and leaders to to continue their education. And Ascent Seminary has a great program. It's going to be a cohort based program that's starting this fall. And you can find out more information on their website. And it works really well with a busy schedule. And you want to ask how I know that because I'm currently doing that by vocational and doing Doing the seminary as well. And know Daniel's kind of doing the same thing, but it is worthwhile because it helps you wrestle with these things. And we're going to continue in the next couple of sessions looking at some other things. But gentlemen, I appreciate your time here covering this topic. And we pray that this blesses you immensely and it helps you, along with us, keep our ministry really goals and objectives focused on what God has called us to do. Gale Heide: Mm-hmm.