S4E6: The Theology of Evil & Suffering

Billy Almaguer: Well, welcome out to our next session. And as we've been journeying through really the topic of really theology for pastors and ministry leaders, we're on our second session in this kind of topic. And what we're gonna looking at today, I think, is something that is very applicable in ministry, but also very applicable personally. And we're gonna be looking at the theology of evil and suffering. And so we've got today a co-host, Daniel Williams, here, hailing from South. Florida and then Dr. Gail Heidi, who is up in beautiful, wonderful, cooler Montana. And so we're grateful for both of them and what we're going to be hearing from them a little bit later on. But I want to kind of start off with a little bit of attention. And I think a lot of times we think about, you know, the theology of evil and suffering and kind of those things that are happening in the world and maybe are happening to us or people that we know. A lot of times we kind of hear this thought, you know, if God is good and if God is powerful, why is there so much suffering in the world? And so to kind of frame that to reality, I want us to kind of think through this because everyone experiences suffering. Everyone on this earth experiences suffering at some level, right? Every worldview must have an answer for it, must kind of address it in some way. And if you think about the pastor and ministry leader, who I think most of us would kind of fall into that category, we have to deal with this not only in a personal way. But in a way that kind of helps us lead in the way in the context that we're leading. So there's evil and suffering that's happening to us, there's evil and suffering that's happening to the people that we minister to. And so when we kind of think about the the expectation, we're not gonna avoid the question, you know, why does it exist? And and we're gonna jump in and see not only kind of from a biblical framework why the the this this topic is is necessary for us to look at, but we're gonna see kind of I think on the application side. How we can, I think, strengthen ourselves from the Word of God and how we can have a better view of this. Because I think understanding this topic is critical and it can help us in ministry and from the personal level. So I want to jump into kind of a really a question here for our wonderful panel here. And I know they're gonna have some thoughts on this. And maybe I'll I'll ask Gail Heidi, maybe I'll ask you this one first. But when you think in terms of suffering, And do you think suffering is a modern problem, meaning that's something that we've just now come to to learn to to kind of name and identify, or do you think scripture has some clues for us? Do you think we see it in the Word of God? Gale Heide: Well, I'm I'm smiling to myself at least, just simply because there's a whole genre of scripture that that really points to the reality of suffering in people's lives, suffering in the biblical authors' lives. We we call it lamentations. The Book of Lamentations is is perhaps a a good illustration of that. There are Psalms of Lamentations and it's it's a fairly constant it seems throughout history that people have experienced disappointment, problems with their expectations, unmet expectations, pain, suffering, death. probably more so in previous generations than in our generation, although we point towards suffering and maybe they're they're all first world problems like the crowd at Costco or something like that. But but we yeah it just read through Hebrews chapter eleven. you know, I I keep marveling at the author of Hebrews saying, you know, there were people who were sawn in two. and and it's it's just a it's a phenomenal experience that I can not relate to because I don't live with the fear of death every day. I don't live with with the same kind of suffering, with the reality of a plague, or, you know, it it's so As a consequence, I think I'm kind of wandering around the question a little bit, Billy, but in reality it has always plagued our minds as well as our hearts and relationships when it comes to understanding God as well as being able to exist in a a sense of peace or contentment. Billy Almaguer: That's good. Daniel, what do you think? Daniel: I think it's always been and it's always applied to every Christian, every generation. So right now we're seeing a lot more suffering because how small our world has become through social media, through news, and it's all in our front, in our fore minds, right there in our screens. But God knew before the foundations of the earth that suffering would happen, sending his son. And he even tells us in his word to not forget about those that are going through persecution, to pray for the brethren that are going through it. He gives us examples of how to handle grief and suffering. Says you can grieve, but you'll have hope. And I think when you think about has it always been, you have to look at the meta-narrative of Scripture, meaning the whole Bible, the reason why suffering came, how we're to live in the midst of suffering, and how it's going to go away and ultimately how God's gonna conquer. And we'll probably go more in depth on that, but when I think about the practical side of suffering, Jesus said in Matthew five forty five, the f the the rainfalls on the just and the unjust, meaning we're all gonna go through it, every generation, every meaning, but God is so good and sovereign and above all that that he can overcome evil, suffering, and even use it for our glory to even see more of his character as we like live in the now. Billy Almaguer: No, that's great. And I think, you know, in terms of suffering, it has kind of a broad term, right? I mean, one one per like Daniel, you and I are in Florida, and we know that in summer, as we were talking right before we started this particular podcast, that if if we don't have the AC on in a facility, maybe as we're meeting as a church family, we might call that suffering, right? We it's uncomfortable, we don't like that. But then in the extreme and often categorized with the same word. There's persecution, there's real suffering, there are there are medical things, there are other things that people are going through that we can say that is truly suffering. So it is a broad term. And so, and kind of the heartbeat behind this is that there is a theology I think that kind of helps us understand this at a much deeper level. Because when you think about pastors and ministry leaders, and I want to kind of pause here for a second and maybe kind of toy around with this idea since we have these experts here to help us kind of navigate this. But you know, when you think about pastors and leaders. Are they immune from falling into some of the common reactions to maybe suffering, which is sometimes it could be anger at God, sometimes it could be doubt of God's goodness, and and sometimes they can it can even lead to disengagement from kind of that day-to-day walk with the Lord because they are going through some form of suffering. And so what are your thoughts there? I mean, pastors are supposed to know this, ministry leaders, right? I mean, this is the Bible, this is what we study, right? But do you think that we're immune from falling into some some of the common reactions, which are to be angry, to be upset, to doubt God's goodness? What what are your thoughts there? Gale Heide: No means, really. I mean, it it think of some of the leaders of not just the church, but the people of Israel. David, yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, he experienced suffering. Now, we could argue that certainly some of that was brought upon himself by his actions and his patterns that he tended to follow in his own life. But nonetheless, did he experience suffering? Definitely. And and perhaps the difference between the the shepherd and the sheep that that I think is important for us to highlight is the Not the blaming of God, but rather the ability of of shepherds to be honest with God, and transparent with God. That's that seems to be the insight of the psalmist and the insight of Jeremiah in Lamentations and and the Book of Jeremiah is that that these guys are are able to be honest with God and recognize the reality, Job especially. Job recognizes the reality that, you know, this isn't a result of what I've done. and he says to his wife, Shall we accept good things from the hand of God and not evil? He uses the word, the Hebrew word, Ra. and it's like, Wow, Job, that seems to be a a pretty strong statement. And yet, what I think we're we're seeing in Job is just that he's He's being as honest and transparent as he possibly can with both God and people. And I I think that's perhaps where the pastor and the shepherd needs to take leadership and and take some ownership of of the realities of life that that we need to be demonstrating for people really how to be true to true to the Lord, true to his word. And honest with him and honest with people. Not crossing over in into sin, certainly, and complaining or blaming God or being angry with God, but but being honest with God is is probably the best place to start when it comes to suffering. Billy Almaguer: Good. Daniel: Yeah, and I I think God has been honest to us. Jesus said, do not be surprised or to you could expect tribulation in this world, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world. Paul said Peter said in first Peter four twelve, do not be surprised by the fiery trials that come. And if we're called to be leaders, we should be lead servants or lo pe walking in the footsteps or paths of Jesus. And Jesus ultimately suffered and the wrath of God and our sin on the cross. And so when we become more like Jesus, we actually are gonna go into suffering. But I think it's really important that we understand oftentimes we talk about suffering, we talk about evil and suffering. And that's very important because not all suffering is bad, but some is. Sometimes when you go against God's law, his promises, the word, there's consequences, but oftentimes we suffer because of evil. Because many people have their own wills, Satan, demons, other human beings, and they sin against us. And even when people sin against us, stab us in the back, abandon us, slander us, we're actually given instruction by leaders on how to lead and love people through that. And we see ultimately Jesus loved us as we committed the most horrendous sin of killing him with our sin. And so we actually have an example of to walk through that and see Jesus in that and we can actually follow his way as we go through suffering. Billy Almaguer: That's good. And I guess kind of for me, kind of the thread that I'm hearing from from both of y'all right now is kind of, you know, the fact that the Bible, the word of God, it doesn't give us a pain-free world to live in and it doesn't guarantee the pain-free world. But it gives us, and I like, you know, Gail, how you were talking about that we can talk to God, Shepherd, you know, just having a conversation and even if we're upset at things, not sinning against, but just being upset and having questions. But really, the Bible doesn't give us a pain-free world, but really what it gives us is a a present God. even during the a a painful world where where things seem to be counter and they seem to be difficult, which is I think critical when you think of of this idea of theology of evil and suffering and how do we handle it as ministry leaders, but then also how do we teach it and help teach others how to apply it. And so kind of one of the things I want to kind of look at is you know kind of developing a little bit of a biblical framework. Maybe some folks here who are listening to this or or or catching this at some other, you know, on some other kind of venue here, maybe they've not gone to a Bible college or or theology, which which is one of the reasons why we have Dr. Gail Hyde here. He he he's he's teaching at Western right now, but is starting a seminary here this coming fall where they will be talking through a lot of these different things. But I want to kind of jump into maybe a little bit of a biblical framework and maybe kind of this the idea of evil. Gale Heide: Mm-hmm. Billy Almaguer: You know, is you know, what is evil? Is it is it is it real? Is suffering just personal punishment? I mean, how do we kind of frame this from your perspective? And I know we only have a we don't have ours, you know. I know you'll get the full version of this if you if you decide to jump into a seminary or or some sort of training, which I would highly recommend, but maybe kind of at a high level, help us understand from a biblical perspective, frame that. Gale Heide: Okay. Yeah, gladly. Thank you very much, Billy. And I'll try to keep this short. Yeah. I w I wanna start with a little bit of the historical approach to the problem of evil, and and what I'm delineating is going to deal more so with the theoretical problem than with the practical problem. Because the practical problem I believe is a pastoral problem. And that's probably the primary area that that we need to deal with when it comes to the problem of evil and the problem of suffering. however, the theoretical still exists, and that's the question that we often get is, you know, why would a good God allow and so forth, or something like that. And usually the question I want to ask when someone says that is, what happened? Tell me a little bit about your history and why you're asking that question because usually you'll they'll start down a path of, well, I knew someone or I had someone close to me and and there's there's a lot of pain associated with it. and and that is a specific problem that I think we need to address, Billy, but it but you've asked me the theoretical question at this point it seems like. So I'll camp on that for a moment and and hopefully we can come back to the practical. the theoretical, and I'm reading from I won't show you who the author is. It's sufficient that I just show you how thick the book is and how many chapters it has. This this particular theologian, if I mentioned his name, you would know him. here's his response or his Billy Almaguer: Mm-hmm. Gale Heide: His summary of the problem of evil and the solutions. He says we should not set our expectations too high in our endeavor to deal with the problem of evil. Something less than complete resolution will have to suffice for us. It's important to recognize that this is a very severe problem, perhaps the most severe of all the intellectual problems facing theism. At one evangelical Christian college noted for the high intellectual level of the faculty and the student body, a sampling of seniors showed that the problem of evil headed their list of the most vexing intellectual problems facing them in connection with their faith. We are dealing here with a problem that has occupied the attention of some of the greatest minds of the Christian church, intellects of such stature as Augustine, Thomas Aquinas. None of them was able to put the problem to rest finally and completely. We should therefore not be unduly depressed if we cannot settle the issue in some final fashion. And I'd I the reason I read that is not to discourage us, but to point out that typically when we approach the problem of evil, and I I appreciate your question, Billy, because you asked about what is the scriptural consideration. You noticed in that in in that particular paragraph that I just read, he was discussing the problem of evil as an intellectual problem facing theism. So he was trying to answer the question from a generic or an abstract position or context in which we have a a belief in God. But there is nothing really specific about that God that that comes into play. maybe he's good. we've kind of reduced God down to the lowest common denominator, in other words. And and I'm I'm not convinced that that is the best approach. it's kind of the old adage that if you bump up against a question that you can't answer, then maybe you're asking the wrong question. And and I think we need to ask the question more biblically if we possibly can. And when it comes to the question of evil and the question of suffering, I'm convinced that it's more so a question of time. and and what I mean by that is much the same as as our problem with the continuation of sin. it's I've I've encountered so many people who who wish that they could be absent from this life. you know, it's like, why doesn't God just take me to heaven the moment that he saves me? Wouldn't that be so much better? And and instead of of this escapist mindset that we sh we often have, or Or even the perception that that suddenly because I've become a Christian everything's gonna be rose-colored glasses. why does God leave us in this world? which is, I think, a question about the philosophy of time. And I'm convinced that the answer about why God is continuing the process of Daniel: Mm-hmm. Gale Heide: Us living in this life and us enduring suffering and why he wants our faith to grow is precisely because he wants his glory to be public. In Colossians chapter 2, interesting passage on the cross, Colossians 2 13, Paul writes, and when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh. He made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, and which was hostile to us, and he has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When he had disarmed the rulers and authorities, he made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through him, through Christ. again in Ephesians chapter three, it's perhaps something that we often blow over, but the manifold wisdom of God being revealed in Christ and ultimately the the unfathomable riches of Christ being brought to light in the progress of God's work with his people and God's revelation. and Paul tells us the reason for this in Ephesians 3 10. He says, in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. In other words, what's happening in our lives, what's happening in the church, is meant to be a spectacle of glory for the sake of the angels, that they might see. And marvel or glorify God as a result because of what they see in the church. So I'm convinced that God's glory is meant to be public. He wants it to be public, which is why then he leaves us in this state of the in-between times. We're still we're saved from you know the punishment of sin, but we're not yet saved from the presence of sin. And living in that in-between time means that we are going to experience hardship, suffering, growth of our faith. But that's precisely why we're here. Daniel's point earlier that it all points ultimately to Jesus. I totally agree that that it's because we are being conformed to his image and in the process, Glorifying Christ because of the good works that we do, therefore, God's glory is magnified. God's glory is expanded, and God's glory is becoming public as people see our good works and give glory to our Father who's in heaven. So it it ultimately, I think, comes down to the question of for whom are we trying to solve the problem? If we're trying to solve the problem for the world or for everyone, we won't be able to solve the problem. If we're trying to solve the problem for believers, then we have the solution right before us. It's the cross. The cross defeated sin, defeated death, and it allows us to participate in this process of glory which God has so graciously gifted us in this life in the between times. So I don't know if that quite answers the question or not, Billy. What what are you thinking? Billy Almaguer: Yeah, I mean, Dan, you got some thoughts before I throw throw mine in there? Daniel: I I was just thinking about what Gell said about mystery. you even thought to the image of Christ, become like Christ. Romans eight, twenty-eight and twenty-nine. God could use the evil, what sin mean for evil, he could use for good. And it's a great mystery in the gospel and how God works, to actually conform us, to bring glory. there's a great truth about that, and I think it's okay when people go through suffering. The practical side is just to say, I don't know. I think it's actually Satan wants you to question why, why, why. And the Lord wants us to know who, who, who. Who do we look to? What do we know? What can we know about God in the midst of something that we don't know? God does give us enough that we can know salvation and have hope. And when I think of like a a theology or a framework of suffering in a thirty second way to let people know, I think of creation, fall, redemption, renewal. I like to tell people anytime they go through suffering, this isn't the way it's supposed to be. And I want to remind them about the goodness of God, that God actually made us for fellowship, made us things perfect in the garden, but it was sin that entered in him. Too many people have a little low view of sin. But remember, sin brought death. It brought corruption. And we still deal with sin. so we know why evil exists and why suffering is here. It's sin, but we also know that God's gonna take care of that renewal, the help of heaven, and we can grieve with hope. And I think it's that in-between the redemption part. The way that we're working out our salvation right now. you know, looking to the promises of God and the covenant of God and what Jesus did. And the best thing that I think you could remind people is in when they're going through suffering, is the Holy Spirit is with him. He's a God of comfort. He knows every hair on our head. Christ came down, he's Emmanuel. So he didn't just theorize and walk away. He came into our suffering to love us, and ultimately we experience suffering because of love, because of free will, because of sin, because of all these things to display God's glory and the manifold wisdom that He gets to do. And in this sovereignty display, I'm going to display this love and purpose, perfect person to you, Jesus, and you can experience him in such a rich, deep way that you would never be able to experience him otherwise. So just thinking and reminding people, this isn't the way it's supposed to be. This isn't the way it will be in Christ. But he's right now in the midst of it and you can know him in a real way. Billy Almaguer: Yeah, I like that. And I think for me, I I was just kind of pondering really the tension. And and I think for many of us when we think of suffering, we think of our own. Obviously first, we think of things that are are maybe going on in our lives or things that maybe we've experienced in the past. But I kinda like the framework that we've kind of talked about here. because it really, you know, when when God walks and when he when he does what he does because there's a public portion, there's something he's doing for the greater good of what he's doing within the kingdom. for others to see. And at first it may feel off-putting because you're thinking, no, but that's coming at my expense. But it really shows the difference in in in why we have a relationship with the Lord. And and really who's the focus of that? Not me and my suffering, but God and his glory. And that's really the the tension. And and again, these aren't things we like to talk about. It's like, well, I'm sorry these things are happening to you or I'm sorry they're happening to me. But God, may God have the glory. May he may all the glory go to him. In whatever public way he wants, I may not like it, I may not appreciate it, I can still have a conversation with him because we're in relationship, but it's his will. Through his sovereignty, he is has redeemed me, but I might experience difficulty and suffering. So I think we kind of answered, I think, a little bit of my question, because I think it helps me and I think others understand kind of God's greater purpose. And I think it it helps hopefully counter Perhaps some some bad theology out there that, you know, once I get saved, everything is up and to the right. I'm, you know, I'm always feeling good. I'm always getting the right jobs. I'm always, it's like, well, that's no one can promise you that. And we don't see that in scripture. and so this is kind of a good, I think, kind of way to look at it. But I want to kind of dive into a little bit more of a of a personal level. And I'm gonna ask you guys this question, and I'll let whoever wants to jump in. But as we're thinking about maybe someone who's listening to this or watching this, they might be thinking, I might know someone that I need to have a conversation with because maybe they're struggling. Or again, it might be the person listening to this, the pastor or leader who might be struggling with this. But what do you say to someone, whether they're a pastor, they're in ministry, or someone who's in your small group or whatever, what do you say to them when it feels like to them God has felled them? in some way. And for whatever reason, the result of that is now brought on suffering into their life. What are some things that we think we could maybe say to them? Maybe it's a loss, illness, injustice, personal unanswered prayer. We can go on list, you know, list a lot of things, but how would you kind of address that? Daniel: Yeah. I think the first thing that comes to my mind is saying, I'm sorry. You know, the Bible says, Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep and not trying to over explain the theory or giving a whole bunch of Bible verses, especially ministry leaders, they know God, they know scripture. but there is an aspect of praying for people that they would genosco and experience something. And sometimes when you have to go through some hardship and that God allows it, You know, we can go all theory and good and God's good and glory, but it's it does hurt sometimes. The cross and dying does hurt. And so just being able to say, I'm sorry, I'm praying for you. How can I help? What can I do? And showing care and empathy is probably gonna be way better on their end to receive something. because the verse is in the th the the mind and the theology will come later. We are actually very emotional beings. And I think that that emotion we're not to sin in our anger. We're not to sin in our emotion. but it's okay to have emotion and just to let people process the pain is a very important thing. Gale Heide: greatest reasons I think that Jesus temptation was the model of temptation and perhaps the the heightened temptation that it was is that he was alone. He had the spirit with him but he didn't have a crowd around him and I think he was he was ultra tempted precisely because he was alone with Satan peppering him with these questions, these problems, these temptations. And and that would be the first thing I guess I would say to someone who was was experiencing and struggling with the reality of suffering is that you are not alone. it may feel like we are alone, but we're not alone. The psalmist in Psalm 13 wrote, how long, O Lord? Will you forget me forever? How long will you hide your face from me? How long shall I take counsel in my own soul, having sorrow in my heart all the day? How long will my enemy be exalted over me? And of course the psalmist goes on to answer, David goes on to answer that it won't be forever. God is near. and that's the The case that I would start with, I guess, is is I would say, you know, the Lord is really near. The Lord is right here with you and in you to walk with you through this suffering. And indeed, so are we. I appreciated that Daniel earlier was in in in talking about suffering, he kept using the pronoun we, which I think is so critical. Because it's something that we do experience together, or at least we should experience together. in Galatians six it tells us to bear one another's burdens and thus fulfill the law of Christ. I think it's critical that we walk through suffering together. So just as as we were I think it was Daniel earlier was referencing that we rejoice with those who rejoice, but we mourn. we feel the pain. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Gale Heide: with those who feel the pain. So that's where I would start too is you're you're not alone. you're not the first, you won't be the last. And not only is the Lord here with you, but but I am as well. We are as well. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. And I I think presence is powerful. I mean, we know this from the Emmanuel, God being with us. You think about Job and his suffering, his friends actually got it right before they opened their mouths. They they actually comforted him while they were just mourning, weeping, and being with him. And many of you guys know as pastors, as leaders, when you talk with someone, often the best counsel is you just listening. Be slow to speak, quick to listen. I was just with someone today, I'm doing a dear sister in our church. her brother passed away. I'm doing his funeral on Friday. My wife and I were over there and talking over things. I didn't say much. We were just hanging out, sharing stories, laughed. she was upset. There were certain things, planning, organizing. But by the end of it, just gotten a gotten a text right before I got in the phone call. Thank you so much for saying blah, blah, blah, for being here, for doing this. And I'm thinking, I I was just there. And that that makes a huge difference being there. I think we put too much pressure on trying to have an answer when When we can just be with them and and empathize with them. So I I love that we can be community and we we can say we suffer. You're not alone in this. And that's a great way to display love and actually give give a great answer. Cause Jesus, he said, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father. We could not see the Father who is spirit, but yet he came down so we can actually see it. And oftentimes the way we manifest our love is just our presence and showing physically. That were there for people. Gale Heide: The theological term for that I think is incarnational ministry, where we become quite literally the hands, the feet, the shoulder to cry on of Jesus Himself. yeah, if if you know, Jesus is not here, in physical human flesh right now. but we are. And we are the next best thing, I guess you could say, through his spirit to be the hands and feet of Jesus. Yeah. So fabulous. Thank you, Daniel. Billy Almaguer: Yeah. And I think kind of what I'm hearing is maybe as ministry leaders, pastors, when we think about this topic and how we engage congregations and people, people in our lives, family, maybe the question isn't so much the why of suffering, but maybe to Daniel's point and Gail to your point as well, maybe the question is well, who who's going to be with this person as they are suffering? Who's going to be with me in it? And I think there's something to be said there. I think that is something that we can step into. again, we kind of saw, you know, I think Gil, you were kind of jumping when you started speaking earlier, you know, Jesus going into temptation alone basically through it, just him and the spirit. And when we kind of think about Christ, I think it's fair and we think about this topic, we need to think about, you know, w the the Christ kind of factor, the resurrection-shaped hope, and how does that factor in? To our suffering because we can have hope, we can have hope during suffering, but it isn't a naive thing. I mean, there's a baseline for it, there's a basis for having that hope. And I think, you know, you know, when you think about believers, sometimes we think, you know, well, things will just kind of work out, even though I don't like what's happening or it's difficult. And that can be kind of a false optimism. But as believers, as followers of Christ, we do have what I like to say as a resurrection-shaped hope. And so maybe kind of. Diving just a little bit further into this because I think we talked about the temptation, but now as we kind of pair that with the cross, you know, Jesus experienced suffering. I mean, when when suffering was in the world, he he didn't like sidestep it, you know, it wasn't like a matador, right? Like if you think about a bullfight. I mean, he, you know, God stepped into it and and kind of took it head on. And so let's kind of talk about maybe toy around with this idea a little bit. you know, but how does Jesus, kind of our Savior, factor into this as as kind of an example for us to constantly look to? Gale Heide: think probably one of the questions I wrestle with the most when I experience suffering in whatever form it might be, it is the question that sort of lingers, well do I really do I deserve this? you know, and I I may feel like I don't deserve it, but there's that haunting question of maybe I did something. Maybe I don't even know what I did, you know, and and maybe it's It's I don't know what, but maybe i this is all coming upon me because I really do deserve it. and that that's a a struggle that I I don't think Jesus had in the same sense, because he knew who he was. he did not have sin. he knew pleased the Father, John chapter twelve, you know, where he says, Father, glorify your John chapter twelve, he's struggling with the thought of of what's coming in the near future. The cross awaits him. And he says, now my soul has become troubled, and what shall I say then? Father, save me from this hour, but for this reason I came to this hour, Father, glorify your name. And a voice comes from heaven and says, I have glorified it and I will glorify it. And and it's like, boy, if only I had that voice from heaven. you know. it's that that's what I think haunts me the most. Pain, I can take some pain. That that doesn't bother me as much as as the haunting question. so how do I answer that when it comes to Jesus as the model, Jesus as the example? Well, I think it's found precisely in the difference. Jesus didn't deserve it, and yet for the joy set before him he endured the cross. how could he find joy in suffering when he didn't deserve it, when he knew it wasn't his fault? and I think the joy stems from precisely the knowledge that he was walking with the Father, for the Father, in the path that had been laid out for him by the Father. So even if I don't know why and I don't have all the answers, I can still find joy in suffering because the one who most didn't deserve it, Jesus himself, still found joy in heading to the cross, still set his face to go to the cross and and still endured Paul says to the point of death, even death on a cross, because there was something better that awaited. So that model of Jesus who he didn't deserve it, but nonetheless he embraced it. Wow, that seems to be the epitome of enduring suffering. Billy Almaguer: Yeah, and I would just add just as a tie for me, because I liked what you said earlier too, but I would even throw one other word in there called public. I mean, that was public suffering, right? And so, and for the glory of the Father. So that was a just thinking through that whole tie in, and you think of what all Christ went through, very publicly recorded. Many people saw this humiliating, terrible suffering, all these things, but it was for a purpose. Daniel, what are your thoughts? Gale Heide: Yeah. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Well, I think when we look to the cross and purpose, it's real easy to say, Well, of course, Jesus went to the cross so he could save humanity. I'm suffering. I don't think my suffering's gonna save humanity. Just not I mean it's just that it's way. But one thing I like you s what you said, Gail, is this Jesus though was perfect. So he never had a question we don't we look at Jesus, we don't have to question, well, did did he deserve that? Or what happened here? And if you think about Jesus' life, he's known as a man of sorrows. Billy Almaguer: Huh. Gale Heide: Yeah. Billy Almaguer: Good point. Daniel: And so I think about Jesus wept over Jerusalem. God made a covenant promise with his people. They turned. We forget the power of sin and haven't dealing with it. John the Baptist, when he got beheaded, where did he go? He go, he he cried, he grieved, he left the disciples to go pray. Lazarus and in John, you know, he passed away. And Jesus wept. We know that verse. and so there was a lot of grief and suffering that Jesus didn't have Because of what he did. It was just the world he lived in. And the we have to understand when you talk about your question, Billy, about being naive. we don't ignore pain. We go through pain, even when we don't deserve it. But we also Jesus knew without suffering or without death there is no resurrection. And he would always bring hope into the situation. he would always encourage Jerusalem to repent. He would say, N you know, Lazarus come out of the grave because he knew. One day he would call us all out from the grave. There were certain things that he saw to help him. And I think giving people perspective in their suffering is so important. And that's what the cross does. First John says, We never have to question the love of God because God manifested his love on the cross. That word manifest means to show or display. So again, when you go through life and you go through suffering, even when it's not yours. we can still look to God and who he is to get that right perspective and healthy perspective. So just thinking about those things because it is, it is hard because we're not God and our suffering sometimes could be in vain. But we could trust God that He can use that suffering and He can even overcome our suffering, our sin and even death for His glory and to actually work these things out for our good. Billy Almaguer: Hmm. That's good stuff. Good stuff. Well, gentlemen, I want to start landing the plane here. And so I want to give you a minute or so each of kind of like some maybe some some kind of land the plane kind of thoughts before I close our session out. And I know like only spending a little bit of time on a topic that you could really sit down and talk hours upon is hard to do. So I appreciate y'all's time jumping into this and hitting a lot of different areas that I think most of us will enjoy. Gale Heide: Amen. Yeah. Billy Almaguer: just because this stuff is very applicable and also something we can focus on for ourselves and in our ministry. But I'd love to maybe have just a minute or so, give you a little bit of time to kind of final thoughts before we wrap things up. Gail, I'll let you go first and then we'll head over to Daniel. Gale Heide: Yeah, thank you, Billy. And thanks for picking this subject because this is one that's often avoided, but I think everyone experiences, so it's really good for us to talk about. And I guess what I would wanna leave us with is suffering is a burden, but it's also a gift. God allows suffering in our lives so that we might be more like Jesus and look more like Jesus. And in that sense, treasure the suffering that comes into your life, whatever that might be. Value it appropriately, in other words, because there's probably no better opportunity for us to become like Jesus or to experience the presence of Jesus than when we experience suffering. Mm-hmm. Billy Almaguer: Stuff. Daniel: I guess the last thought that comes to my mind is Lamentations. And it's right in the middle of the book. If you know the Lamentations, it's sort of a up and down thing and the the climax or the middle of the book, it reminds us a very familiar verse. Great is thy faithfulness. the God's mercies are new every morning. And I think when I think about suffering, the enemy tries to use that To get our eyes off the Lord, but God wants to prove to Himself His faithfulness and His goodness. and so we need mercy. And the Bible says we can have mercy every day in Christ, in Jesus, and who he is, and he will prove himself to be who he says he is. And our suffering is temporal, but our God and his word is eternal, and so we can look to these eternal things and have hope, not ignoring the pain. Not s but looking to actually something greater than our pain, who is Christ and Savior. And so I just think about it's okay to grieve, it's okay to lament, but in the midst even of the greatest book talking about that and sharing that we should do this, it points us to Christ. And no matter what you're going through, no matter what suffering, no matter what pain, disappointment, God is in the midst of us, in the midst of it. He is near the brokenhearted and he comforts us, and we are blessed to have the Holy Spirit who's the great comforter and To walk us through all of it and even point us to Christ. So just remember your God's mercy is for you, even in the situation, even when you are faithless, he is faithful for he cannot deny himself. And that is so important to understand because as leaders, we try our best to serve the Lord with all of our might. But it's not by might nor by power, but by God's spirit that he does great work. He builds the church. And when you're at the end of yourself, it is such a joy to rely fully on Christ and you know. Him lift us up with his faithfulness and his goodness. So just keep looking to God and he'll continue to comfort us and he'll continue to give us wisdom. So we can therefore, Ephesians or Colossians one says, not Colossians, first Corinthians one says, the afflictions and stuff that we go through, when we get comforted by the Lord, we then can comfort others with those same wounds, scars, afflictions that we've gone through as well. So just continue to look to the Lord and all of your Endeavors and sufferings and doubts and pains, he is faithful and he is with us. Billy Almaguer: That's good stuff. And I appreciate both of y'all, y'all's time today. And for for those who are watching and are listening, I know many of you know that Daniel and I are both kind of doing continuing education as well. We're in different places, but I think Gail gave us a new term, Daniel. So when, like for me, my professor who will go unmentioned at the moment, we're writing papers, we're reading all these things and you know, coming up with all this stuff. And so instead of thinking that as suffering, I'm gonna treasure those moments. And I think I'm gonna look at I'm reframing how I'm thinking through you know, some of the stuff that maybe I'm going through. But all that to say is that I hope this has been a blessing to you. This is only the tip of the iceberg. There's so much more to cover on this topic, which is again why we point people to seminary and some other options that are out there as far as continuing it. But hopefully this blesses you and your ministry, and hopefully it helps us understand more about Christ and the promise of redemption and just the public. suffering that we may endure, but really we get to endure it for the joy of the Lord. So thank you all for for catching us on this one and we'll catch you on our next session.