S4E7: The Theology of the Church – Why Community Matters

Billy Almaguer: we are kicking off our next session where we're looking at some theology that I think should matter to pastors and just leaders and really just anyone who just does church. And so oddly enough, we're gonna be speaking about church today. And so we're looking at the theology of church and really why does it matter? Why why does it matter that we you know that we go to church or we are part of a church and you know there's a lot of different churches. that may be preaching the gospel, might be doing things differently, but we're gonna kind of explore this topic today. And I think what we're gonna see as we kind of go through this theme is that church really isn't optional, and we really see it as God's design context for formation, and we're gonna kind of see I think that pop up a little bit. And so today, like we've had over the past couple of sessions, we have Dr. Gail Heidi here with us, and we've also got Daniel, who they're gonna give us some great input, both Practitioners of this in a lot of different ways. And so we're going to going through this conversation, but I want to kind of get into kind of just a question. I want to just jump right in, guys, and just kind of explore this question. And Daniel, I'm going to start with you first. And I know Gail will have some thoughts on this as well, but can you actually follow Jesus without being deeply connected to his church? And I emphasize his church. Daniel Williams: Absolutely. But you can't make disciples without people and community. I tell people all the time, you could be a Christian by yourself and you receive the Lord. It's a personal commitment to the Lord and you receive that revelation, the gospel, and get saved, but you can't fulfill the law and the things that the Word of God says by yourself to actually make disciples and be in community. So we need one another. Gale Heide: That's so true, Daniel. It it's it I marvel sometimes at how people consider the church an option. it it's almost as though well, I mean, we are consumers and that's the culture in which we live. And as consumers, we're always asking the question about well, who what's what's in it for me? And and if it's going to cost me something, is it really something I want to do? Rather than looking at it from the the more basic question of who am I? and if I am saved To be a part of the church, because interestingly, Jesus only uses the singular in Matthew 16 when he says, I will build my church. You emphasized the word his there, Billy, and I so appreciate that. He says, I will build my church. He says, church singular. not churches and as a consequence w that what that makes me realize is that when I become a believer, I am part of the church. So the question is not can I be in or out. the question is how am I doing as part of the church? Am I really Daniel Williams: Yeah. Gale Heide: fulfilling my my place, my ultimately my created destiny, I would say. Daniel Williams: I like what you said, Gail, Billy Almaguer: That's good. Daniel Williams: about identity, because Peter says we've been snatched from darkness into light. But in that same passage, First Peter chapter two, it says we've also been called from something to something. That now we're a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people that are supposed to give praise to God in communal aspect, not only to God, but with one another. We've been adopted into the family of God. And so we are free from sin, but we actually become slaves of righteousness and actually are placed into the family of God to do great things and to do it together. And I love that that question, Billy, because it says, can you be deeply connected to can you be a follower of Jesus without being deeply connected? you can follow Jesus in your first step of salvation by yourself, but after that it's pretty clear if you love God, you'll obey his commands. And there's a lot of commands that he speaks about our new identity in him. as a creation and then what that means doing it with other people in our lives. Billy Almaguer: No, that's great. And I think when you kind of look at the modern trends, and again, there's a lot of could be a lot of reasons. It could be maybe first time parents having a child. maybe someone has moved, they've just got a lot of just stuff that they're trying to work on. And so the tendency is to maybe formulate some sort of reason why why you know why you can just be disconnected. So essentially someone can move from maybe being a a committed follower of Christ. l in the local body then once they move or they have some sort of disruption in their life, they get put in a place where they then kind of land where they're not going to church regularly and they could land in this very simple statement of, Well, I love Jesus, but just not really the church, because you don't really see it in the action. And, you know, others could maybe experience church hurt or some other form of disconnection. And really I think what what it tends to kind of lead to oftentimes is what we would title kind of that consumer mindset where I'm gonna go when it benefits me. I'm gonna go to my favorite restaurant when they have my favorite tacos or brisket sandwich on sale or whatever it is, right? We kind of get into that consumer mindset. And so I want to kind of toy around just diving a bit deeper because I think we've established like who the church belongs to. It's it's his church, it's the Lord's church. so really it comes down to is the church optional and essential to the Christian life? What are your thoughts on that? Gale Heide: Yeah, I'll I'll start out maybe with an just an analogy. we are part of creation and and just looking at other parts of creation, I'll I'll just use plants as an analogy. can you be a plant without being in the sunlight? Well, sure, you could be a plant. you're gonna be a mushroom, but you know, you can be, you can exist. Without the sunlight and without the Some of the things that are are sort of endemic to being a plant or to growing as a plant. But you're not going to be a very good one. You know, you're not going to blossom. You're not going to grow like you perhaps should or would want to. And that, you know, obviously analogies break down after a while. But I I think there's there are some similarities to how we need to be connected. connected to the sunlight, how we need to be connected to God's design for our growth, for our existence. And if we don't, yeah, we'll stay a a mushroom, I guess, for all too long. Billy Almaguer: It's good. Daniel Williams: Gail, you're so gracious because I was just gonna say no, no, you can't. But I'll give you an analogy. I'll give you Gale Heide: Ha ha ha. Billy Almaguer: No. Daniel Williams: more scripture and analogy too. I was thinking about this because this happens a lot when people come to the faith and be come get saved and are a part of the church. New believers. one of the first things the enemy does is he tries to isolate them. they get caught in their sin, they don't know about sanctification and they don't want to be around other Christians because they thought, God forgave me of all my sin. And now look, I I don't want to be around them and I feel so guilty and judged. And ultimately if they're not connected to the body, they fizzle out and and die and get caught up by condemnation rather than conviction and repentance. Where we get to learn in the church and with one another. And so the analogy that came to my mind is it's like a platoon. you could be a soldier, you could fight this battle. this is not a playground, it's a w it's a it's a warfare, man. It's a it's a battleground. but The statistics of a soldiers surviving when they get isolated from their platoon is slim to none. And so what ends up happening is we think that we could fight these battles on our own, but God lovingly gives us commands, like Hebrews 10, not to neglect fellowship with brethren or to be able to be a part of the body, or he gives us this covering of a church family to grow in our faith because he loves us. He wants us protected. That's why one of the first steps of a new believer is baptism to proclaim and let other people know so that other people can pray for them and disciple them and let other people know that I'm following Jesus and I need help and I need accountability. And so if you walk away from the church, even if you're hurt, you're still in warfare, you're still in the battleground and it's gonna be really hard to survive without other people to protect, to help, and just to be separated from what we were intended to be in community. Billy Almaguer: That's so good. And I when I when you guys were talking, it's kind of made me think through, you know, the church and the fact the church it's not a human invention. It you know, when if you're a non-believer and you are seeing the billboards, the social media, the whatever that, you know, churches use, and there's nothing wrong with that for promoting their services, which is ultimately promoting Christ in some way, It's not a human invention. And I think sometimes pastors and ministry leaders can fall into that. I've got to make a certain brand of church or I'm making a certain whatever and it's going to look a certain way. But in its basic form, the theology of church, it's it's the Lord's, it's necessary, it's not a human invention. And when you think about how it's connected to discipleship, I'd even go so far to say that it's absolutely essential for discipleship because. Disciples aren't formed individually, like just by themselves in a dark corner, like the mushroom, right? I that's kind of the whole idea. It's really the design. I mean, you think about the Lord as He sent people out. I mean, it's by design, He sent them out together. And so kind of looking at that more, shifting more a little bit more to kind of the theology side of it, the biblical foundation. I mean, what are some some Gale Heide: Mm-hmm. Billy Almaguer: some imagery? What are some things? And I know maybe First Corinthians 12 has got some imagery. For us, but when you think about biblical foundation of what is the church and why different people make up this beautiful thing that we call the church. It's not the building, we all know that. It's not the land. It's none of those things. It's not the programs or the organization, but it's the people. But let's just kind of toy around maybe with a little bit of the idea of just maybe some biblical foundation. What are what are some thoughts there, or some things that we see in scripture that really point to what Gale Heide: Yeah, I mean you know the the analogies well. That are used in scripture, the analogy of 1 Corinthians 12 of a body, the analogy of a building, the end of Ephesians 2, the analogy of a family. It it these are all things that are are very plural. And Daniel, you mentioned earlier that that there are a lot of commands that are given, especially in relationship to sanctification, that it's really interesting if we look at the original language, the commands are given to plural groups of. people. It's not and that's not just because Paul expects that he's writing to or Peter expects that he's writing to a large group. I think it really is by design they intend that this is going to happen collectively. in and the word that I I'm gonna get technical for a moment, just the word that comes to mind is synergism. the way the way things that we see in nature or in science depend on each other. like for instance, just a simple analogy. I don't know if I've used this here, so forgive me if I'm repeating myself. But the the anemone and the clownfish. you know the clownfish, Nemo. And the clownfish like to hide amongst the tentacles of the anemone anemone because the anemone stingers will keep the the fish that prey on clownfish away and the the clownfish will keep certain like butterfly fish away from the anemone who eat its tentacles. And so as a consequence this synergistic relationship is set up between the two where for their very existence they almost depend upon one another. Now that's that to me is Romans 12 that we are Daniel Williams: Mm-hmm. Gale Heide: quite literally members of one another. that it it it once you become a follower of Jesus you are a member of the family. You are a part of the building. And we that might lead us to the conversation of responsibility, I suppose. You know, you gotta keep up your end of the building, or you've got to keep up your part in the family, or something like that. But I think maybe a better direction for us to go is is that that brings up a level of dependence that it seems like Paul is is concerned about. That we we do quite literally. Depend on each other. We have to have one another, which is the whole reason that he brings up 1 Corinthians 12 that you know the ear should not say to the nose or the hand to the eye or something, I have no need of you. But indeed we do need each other. The amazing value of the human toe. Yeah, if if you've ever known someone who doesn't have a toe, you know that they have to learn how to walk all over again and they will never walk like they did before. Billy Almaguer: Mm-hmm. Daniel Williams: Mm. Gale Heide: every part of the body is critical for its existence. And I think the singularity that that Christ says his church, his body, is indicative of that, that we are all members of one another. Daniel Williams: Yeah, and think when Billy Almaguer: So good. Daniel Williams: we talk about like the theology of what is church, you said collectively, but I think even taking a step back and thinking of communal, because we're in such a culture now where we think individually, but the church is not a building. We know that it's the people, and it's the people of God, the elect people of God, a gathering of saints, sinners saved by grace. And so if you think about even who we worship, a triune God, three and one, the Bible says that we were made in his image. And so Back to being saved and in this new creation, we actually are saved by grace, separated, sins separate us, we get to go back to God, forgiveness of sin, and joined in relationship with him, but also with others. And so when we think about the theology of the church, we're human. The church are people, and people thrive in community because we're made in the image of God and God is communal, and he calls us in relationship, not religion. So there's a lot of theology and a lot of sort of frameworks and have to actually go take a step back because we could just assume we're all on the same page talking about church. But a lot of people don't even know and can't even define what the church is and why its purpose even exists. Gale Heide: Yeah, I I like the language of purpose, Daniel. Thank you for for bringing that up because that that to me causes the question, furpose for whom? you know, it i if if we're because oftentimes we're just talking about about the church at a very human level. in other words, it it for us the church has existential value. In other words, it it can make us better people, it can cause us to flourish, it can we can have more peace or more fellowship and things like that. All the human needs that we have can be fulfilled in church, which is Very true, but that's not the only purpose. it does seem as though there's certainly a purpose for the world. one of my Professors previously, Stanley Howard always used to say that the the church exists in the world to let the world know that it is in it is in need of redemption. in other words, the church needs to exist in such a way that the world knows it's the world and that it needs a savior. So for the world, the church has a certain value, a certain place as well. But then ultimately, and and you went right here too, Daniel, what is the purpose of the church? For God. And in particular, thinking of the triune element, how the spirit indwells the church, ultimately to transform them into the image of Christ. There's our discipleship element again, Billy, for the glory of God. You guys, I think I did bring this one up last time in Ephesians 3, talking about what God is doing in the midst of the Ephesians. Ephesians and Paul says, in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. Ultimately, God is doing things to display his wisdom in the church so that the angels can worship, the angels can Billy Almaguer: Yeah. Gale Heide: glorify him, the angels ultimately can magnify God because of what he's doing in the church. So it it's a a a wonderful model of of glory ultimately that we get to participate in. You're exactly right, Daniel. And and and that participation is our privilege, and it is our best, really. Daniel Williams: Yeah, I know that we're going long on a question, but it just it made me spur and think about the wisdom of God and the purpose of the church. I often look at people in our small groups, our community groups, our church service. I'm like, I would never know you or even be in the same room with you if it wasn't for Jesus. He's that big. He's that good, meaning. So like when people see like multi generational, multi ethnic, different languages, the church, the global church, even the world, it just brings so much wisdom and glory. I know a lot of people right now are dealing with church hurting. We want to love Jesus, but not the church. Well, the church is a whole bunch of people that are being sanctified. And I actually think it's amazing that God works with that there is church hurt because it actually shows God's wisdom and his mercy and grace that he loves us even after we know the goodness of God, we can fall away and fall short, and yet we can be cleansed of our sins. And he still works with us and we and it's just a it's just a beautiful picture when we see sinners sin and God's love cover that sin. And so, you know, we are we are naturally imitators. this is how we learn as human beings. And so we are actually able to learn forgiveness and love and patience. And these things that the spirit moves and works in our lives as fruit individually, but also collectively. We get to see how to be good parents in the church and raise kids or a spouse or live single and content or learn how to suffer. Paul said, Follow me as I follow Christ. And so we are following Christ, but Christ actually gives us the great job of saying, Now I want people to follow you as well. Go make some disciples and point them to me. And I love how the wisdom of God is he uses imperfect people like you and I to point others to himself through the church. It's just incredible when you think about the wisdom and the beauty of God of how he uses this communal. aspect in the church for his glory. Billy Almaguer: All good stuff. And I think for me, one of the things that we've been as a church, local expression of the church, we've been going through Matthew and so obviously kingdom language and to me the loftiness of just you know, the way we think of church is really kind of been a a shift for us. It's not just the place where we were gathering or the group of Bible preaching churches, you know, gospel centric churches, but it's it's a It's a much bigger piece of the kingdom, right? Like we can we think of the kingdom movement of what God is is doing. So then it kind of begins to shift to thinking of, you know, the church is not just where we go. even if I go down to Daniel's church for a weekend, or or if I go up to Montana to to your church, go. I mean, it's not where we go, but it but it's who we are, and we're kingdom men and women. We're we're citizens of of this kingdom. And it just for me has just been kind of Daniel Williams: Mm-hmm. Billy Almaguer: a nice, refreshing kind of retake on some things. But Daniel, you did mention something I want to kind of dive into, but you know, you talk about church hurts and we we kind of talked about that just briefly in the first part. And you know, for pastors and leaders, I think oftentimes people can, that's their excuse. I'm not going to church because this church, that pastor did whatever. and we can come up with all kinds of excuses, imperfect people being part of this movement of God and how God uses that. But sometimes when we think about the realistic side of church, people can drift, and even pastors and ministry leaders and just g in general congregations, people can drift into isolation. people can can have unhealed wounds that they're trying to that maybe they haven't dealt with. but what we know is that in isolation, when people aren't connected in the local body, and in the imperfect local body, I'm gonna call it that. just it's not, it's not perfect. It's but it's They're leaning into what God's called them to do with imperfect leaders and imperfect people. But when people choose not to connect in the local church for whatever reason, you know, I'm I'm saved. I I'm I'm, you know, I I have salvation. I've, you know, I have forgiveness of my sins, but for whatever reason, I am not going to go be a part of the local church. I want to kind of talk about maybe what happens and maybe the path. You know, I think we talk about being on a a good, righteous path or a destructive path. isolation can feel easy because it's easy to do and not to engage, but it can end up being very, very destructive. And so I want to kind of lean into formation side of church and why we think that there's a connection there. And so maybe Gail, we can kind of start with you and some thoughts Gale Heide: Yeah. Billy Almaguer: there, but kind of exploring kind of maybe that connection, if you will. Gale Heide: Yeah. Sure. And and I'm gonna add one to it, Billy. I I think Billy Almaguer: Yeah. Gale Heide: COVID kind of cultivated an additional way to isolate ourselves and that's to go to church in my PJs. in other Daniel Williams: Mm-hmm. Gale Heide: words, sit on my couch and do church online and and never connect with anybody. It and it might not be because it's of pain that I don't go back to church or don't fellowship with the body, but rather it's just inconvenient for me. I don't want to get out of my PJs on a Sunday morning. And and if either of those are the case, and and this isn't to belittle the pain that can be caused in a church or the pain that that can come from broken relationships or things like that. I don't miss to belittle that. Those are real pains that people feel but I fear that going back to something Daniel said earlier, that the enemy has us at that point exactly where he wants us. That isolation, that kind of stiff arming or or denial of fellowship, denial of other people, that's exactly where the enemy wants us. I you mentioned earlier I live in Montana, and I'm not far from Yellowstone National Park. And in the park there are packs of wolves that roam around, much like the lion in First Peter 5, where Peter says, be on your guard for your adversary, the devil, prowls about like a roaring lion. And and these wolves, how they hunt, is to me, it it really just fits the scenario so well. Because wolves will isolate their prey and then they will take turns chasing that prey until it wears down and finally gives up. And that's how a pack will hunt. It's prey. And Satan is really no different when it comes to people in the church because he isolates us and then he wears us out until we finally are willing to give in, to give up, to just say, you know, resisting sin is just not worth it anymore. You know, it it's just not really worth the trouble that it's been to follow Jesus or to fellowship with people. people are too much. Too much trouble, too painful for me. And and it's like, man, that is exactly where the enemy wants us. Now, I'm not sure I've asked your answered your question, Billy, so can you ask it again? Billy Almaguer: No, I I think that's kind of, you know, when we're talking about isolation, I think you you you painted a good analogy of what it looks like to live life on your own. But as we think about kind of the connection between, you know, if you're if you're going to go live an isolated life, then you can probably guess at some level you're not going to grow at all, potentially, or very minimally, in your faith, in your walk, which then I think is a setback for maybe what for what God had for you potentially in the kingdom. And so again, when we start thinking about spiritual formation and how people are are are, Daniel Williams: Mm-hmm. Billy Almaguer: you know, saying, hey, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna check in online, catch maybe a song or two, you know, maybe, maybe get a couple of of of quotes that are gonna get me through, it's like that's that's not that's not church. And as much as I, you know, I I'll say it like I really dislike live streams. Like we have to do it. I get it. and I think it is beneficial because I think there are people's lives who get changed by that. There I'm not opposed to it, but I dislike it because I think it's also given people the opportunity to use that as an excuse. but likewise too, so has air conditioning in Florida, so has maybe heat in the winter, you know, in other places of the world. Gale Heide: Yeah. Billy Almaguer: So conveniences are are kind of part of it. But I mean, I think that's it I think what you're driving home in my mind is that formation. If we think about how God uses the church, his church for formation, it's through his truth, through the word of God, it's through relationships, imperfect relationships, but it's through a unified common mission. a mission that the, you know, that we that we have, that Jesus has given us. So I think you did kind of, I think, answer that in my opinion, especially with the analogy of showing, like, hey, if you're you've wanna go be the Lone Ranger and get isolated, this is a real world scenario. And at some point you'll probably say, Hey, I'm tapping out. I'm just gonna live my life and just kinda do my own thing and just all that could have been is for not. Like you're you're unable kind of move forward because you've you just don't have the ability anymore. So Gale Heide: Daniel, I'm gonna jump in here again because of something Billy said. It it it the idea of formation necessitates contact, connection. and the reason I say that is because of of Mark three thirteen. When Jesus chose the twelve it it says there that he sent them out, you know, and and to do ministry, to to cast out demons and and so forth. But but there's something that he did before that. The main reason that he chose them in Mark 313 is so that they might be with him. And it and it's I think it's so critical that they lived life with Jesus for three years. Now, some of them may have known him beforehand and so forth, but but for those three years of Jesus' ministry, they they dwelt together. And and that kind of imprinting I think is critical for us to fulfill our calling. If if indeed the Lord wishes us to become like Jesus, and that is what sanctify. Is all about, then I I think it's essential. it is necessary for our Christian existence as followers of Jesus that we be with him, or in our context, as Daniel was saying earlier, be with other followers of him, since he is is here through his spirit, ultimately through them. Daniel Williams: Yeah, and I I think going back to your wolf analogy, the formation side of church, thinking about Ecclesia Ecclesiastes four, if one falls, man, where's the other guy to pick him up? Two? Well, it's a good thing. And it's better than Gale Heide: Mm-hmm. Daniel Williams: one, and three is a strong tight chord. I think then we think about formation and the church, it's so important to understand that there will be times in our life when we are weak. and the Bible says, those that are strong carry the weak. And there will be times when we're strong and we're to carry other people. And so we need to put things in place in our normal rhythms. That's what formation is, right? I like to call spiritual formations rhythms of grace, because they're means of grace that we can access God and know God, like reading the word or prayer, fasting, giving, serving. And so going to church is a form of a rhythm of grace that God set up. Many people do the Sabbath. a communal day to worship God. Yes, we stop work, but it's also to contemplate God and be with God's people and enjoy the grace of God's given. And so when I think about that analogy of being isolated and how important the formation of church is, I often tell people the choices you make become the habits you have, which become the character, and that's who you are. And so as you're living life, you need to make the habit or the choice To go to church regularly to have that habit to be who you are around God's people. So when you are weak, you're already with God's people. And that's why a Sabbath rhythm or doing things in rhythms are small choices, they add up a lot exponentially. And so we should be thinking about being the church, but also gathering eclipsia with the church to form us, to shape us, to not only see how the Spirit of God is moving and what it would he would say to his people. But also so we can get strength from his people, because the Spirit God lives in them. And so when we fall down, it's already in our rhythm of grace to be with God's people in community, to build relationship, to be a part of a small group. When two or three are gathered in his name, he is there. And so we want to make space for us in our formation to allow God to be there. So that's why we have a rhythm of going to God's word, and only the spirit of God can give revelation. We have a rhythm of going to worship God. and sing songs and praise God and gathering with his people, but God's spirit does the work there. And so this is this mutual partnership and spiritual formation that we can go and be a part of the church. And I just think we need to prepare for that because ultimately if we don't, it's a act it's just a thing of pride, thinking that we'll never be weak. We don't need anyone and it's just us. And then, you know, th there's where we fall right there and then. Billy Almaguer: So good. And kind of what what I'm thinking of here, then it sounds like if we're looking at obviously the formation side through the truth, through relationships, through mission, formation is, I don't want to call it the ultimate goal, but it is part of the goal. God is is reforming it. He's changing us. We're being changed through through the Holy Spirit, through interaction with God's people, the church, through the mission and calling of Christ. And I think sometimes if I could, you know, be a little bit more blunt than I was earlier with when I kind of started the question, I think sometimes people will use brokenness. The church is broken and this, that, and the other. And we might pick things that we don't like about churches. But the fact is true is that even though there's brokenness and there's imperfections in the church, it doesn't cancel God's design for what he was wanting, the mission and and really his kingdom people coming together. to be information and to grow and to worship him and to bring him glory. I mean, so to me, that's kind of when I've had conversations with people of why this is why I don't go to church and they've listed off the 25 reasons that we've all heard before. It's like, but but that doesn't cancel God's design and and usually people don't have an answer to that. Well I guess, yeah, maybe it doesn't. Okay, then what do I do? Well then go to church. Pick pick one. Gale Heide: Mm-hmm. Billy Almaguer: Pick the one that that that works for you and and kind of go there. so okay, so want to kind of start landing some things here on maybe some some thoughts here. So if you imagine if we will, we're trying to encourage, because hopefully the idea here is to be able to encourage some ministry leaders, to you know, some pastors, maybe some church planters, people who are in the thick of it, maybe in the mission field, and they may, you know, be trying to be a representation of the church, or they're leading in a local expression of the church. But maybe what are some thoughts that we could pass along as far as encouragement to them to keep really keep after it? I mean, my heart is that, you know, men and women who are called to do ministry would do it as long as the Lord has called them and to not give up earlier. and so part of the heartbeat behind this conversation is to be able to kind of openly talk about it, talk about the theology, the formation side and wrestle with it, but then obviously would like to end with a little bit of Just encouragement for for folks who have done this. And so maybe Gail, we'll start with you and some thoughts because I know you are not only are a a a teacher of this, you've been a part of church plants, you've served in the local church. And I I imagine you're at some level, I'd say a fan of the church. But maybe we could start there and then we'll head on down to Daniel. Gale Heide: Yeah, it it's been interesting over the years. I've pastored three different churches and each one of them primarily because they were going through some sort of struggle. and and they either lost their pastor or had just recently gone through a church split. and and the question that often came up, in fact I remember sitting with a group of about a half a dozen core leaders from one of the churches on a given Sunday morning before the service start, we'd get together and pray. And and one of them finally articulated the elephant in the room, should we keep doing this? you know, maybe we should just close our doors because there's not that many people coming compared to what it was previously. And and you know, it feels like there's there's no real reason to continue. and and I think it's important that we egg acknowledge exhaustion. I think it's important that we acknowledge the the difficulties That come with with being in leadership, with being you know, the one who seems to always be running the anchor leg or or carrying the weight, so to speak, the heavy end of the the chair. But I I I think it goes back to something that that you said in one of our past sessions, Billy, that it's really not about performance. It's about faithfulness. And and it's about what has the Lord called me to today? can I be successful in what I'm called to do today? And tomorrow will take care of itself. Because really it's it's it all comes back to an audience of one. That if I'm working to please the Lord, it will it will He will guide my steps, he will be my strength, and he will be the one that that helps me to carry out what he's called me to do. Not more than that, but not less. And and I can do that. today I can do that. and that that's Telling that to the church that that had just lost their pastor and felt like they should close their doors, it was like, okay, well, we can do another Sunday. We can do our Bible studies during the week. We can continue to read our Bibles and pray and and love the Lord and worship Him and focus on Him and and not lose sight just because of circumstance. not that circumstances are always easy. that we should disregard them because circumstances can be very difficult. But trying to see beyond the circumstance to what does the Lord call me to today? And and that's work worth doing. Daniel Williams: I guess the encouragement I would have for just church leaders and people that are struggling and leading the church, because it's hard and you're dealing with a lot of people and you know they say leadership shines in the church because you can't pay anyone. The motivation can't be money. You can't yeah, they're all volunteers. What do you do? How do you build it? But I I would just say this, my life changed because people a group of people on a mission trip were loving one another. And Jesus said they'll you'll they'll know your love they'll know your disciples by your love for one another. And when people get together and love God and love one another, it reflects the heart of God. And the church reflects God. It reflects God's gospel, the grace of God, the mercy of God, his goodness. what we do matters as we lead the church. And it's mattered in my life when a group of people were actually reading their Bible and praying and Trying to evangelize and serving. And it may have been a short term mission trip, but it was the church that was activated and living out the commands of God. And I think every pastor, every church planner, every leader, every elder, they want people to be equipped to do the work that God's called them to do. And so I would just tell you as a church leader, be encouraged because what you do actually matters. And how you build communion, how you don't give up is you stay on mission. Because there is a great purpose for your life, but there's a great purpose and calling. Because if you think about the fivefold ministry in Ephesians, I think the apostle, the prophet, the evangelist, the pastor, teacher, it says they are gifts to the church. The leaders of the church are a gift to people because they get a magnify live for Jesus and be examples to those that are following him. And so it really does make a difference. It really does matter how we lead the church in a loving way. and it changes and transforms life. And if you want to build the church and think about it, the a brother is built in adversity. Don't don't just think about your own calling. Give people in the church not just a past, challenge them to know that they should be devoted to good works, that they should respond to the gospel, that as we gather together as the saints, we're glorifying God and we're being equipped to be sent people. And so the spirit of God dwells in them and they need to know their gifts. They need to develop them. They need to be deployed by you. And man, just keep going because the power of the church will always be because it was God, it's God's church. He started this thing, Gale Heide: Mm-hmm. Daniel Williams: he's gonna finish this thing, and he's gonna return for his church. And so I want to be a part of his return, his coming, his preparation, his community, because it's just a privilege to be able to see his spirit move within his people. And so we get to be a part of that. And I know that we can want to quit at times. I know that we think sometimes it doesn't matter, but it's God's plan, the church. He is the hope of the world, and he gives that hope to his people as a living hope that we get to emulate and be salt and light and magnify him, and it's just a beautiful thing to be a part of. Gale Heide: Amen. Billy Almaguer: So good, so good guys. I appreciate just all the wisdom and information that that you share today because I think that was kinda a great primer for a lot of us. And hopefully if if you're watching this video and you felt discouraged, I'd go back to the very vivid analogy of the wolf. the wolf pack there. I mean, our job and really what we're doing, because we see the church as not optional, we know it's essential to Christian life. You as leaders, we know this, and we know that isolation hinders spiritual formation. And so part of our mission and what you're doing is so vital, and whether that's one person a year or hundreds of people a year coming to faith, we have the opportunity to lead a local expression of the church to be able to find what the wolves are after. And help point them to the one and only thing that can rescue them, which is Jesus. And so that is a huge privilege and and a calling that I know that's on our lives. And so that's kind of what my encouragement would be. And so, Daniel Gill, thank you so much for just your your words during this during this special topic. And I pray that our time together hopefully encourages you for those who are listening to continue doing the work that the Lord has called you to do.