S4E9 — MEASURE: The Ministry Dashboard

Billy Almaguer: Welcome to the Follow Jesus Cultivate People podcast. And in this month's podcast, we're gonna be looking at measuring in the ministry. And you might think, measure what? Well, there are things to measure when God has given you and I something to do and something to steward. And so there's always this healthy tension of how do we do that? What do we measure? And maybe even how do we practically do that in our day-to-day rhythm. And so the truth is that we can't actually faithfully steward. what we refuse to pay attention to. And so that's gonna be a little bit of the tension that we're gonna be jumping in today. I'm excited to have this conversation with a great panel. And so I'm gonna have our panel introduce themselves, tell you a little bit about who they are, where they're doing ministry, and then we're gonna jump into this topic. Take it away, panel. Adrian Tijerina: My name is Adrian Tijadina. I am here in Tennessee, where I have the great pleasure of shepherding. two sister churches, Central Chapel Church and Mount Pleasant Community Church. I've been here for three years here in Tennessee. And it's been a bit of a church revitalization as both these churches left the United Methodist denomination due to theological disagreements. And so just serving the Lord and growing leaders and helping people regain a passion and deep understanding of God's work. And I'm grateful for this podcast. So thank you, Billy, thank you, Daniel, for allowing me to be. To be on here. It's been a bless a blessing to me over the last few years, even, just as I've been ministering to these churches. So thank guys. I'm glad to be here. Daniel Williams: Yeah, I'm Daniel Williams and I live and serve in South Florida and recently just planted a church in Boynton Beach, Florida. Been doing ministry for a while, but in the season I'm in now, it's fun to be able to use some of that wisdom and knowledge to replant a church here in our community and to get the gospel out and make disciples. And so always blessed to be able to be here with my sidekick, Billy Almagier, and ask questions and learn from amazing people like the people on this panel. Manolo Matos: And I'm Manolo Matos and I live in the city of Lima in Peru. I've been a pastor here for 14 years. And over the last two years, became the president of Caiver Chapel Bible College Peru. So it's been really fun leading a team on campus to continue to train. nationals and even in international students as well. I'm currently at the campus right now teaching a class, but it's really fun to to be here with you guys. It's an honor to participate in this conversation. Billy Almaguer: Awesome. Well I'm excited to have just this wealth of knowledge and diversity and location and what everyone's calling is. And no doubt we're gonna learn a lot from our conversation today. And hopefully there'll be a lot of great application points for those of you who are listening and are watching. And so I want to kind kick off with the with a little bit of a question here. But really comes down to when we think about ministry, think about what God has called us to, how do we know if the church or ministry that you're leading is actually healthy? I mean, who who determines that? How do how do we do that? And I'm not saying not that, you know, we can't say, well, it's just growing, so we know that it's healthy. We can't say that we're just busy and and and equate that with health or even that we're just full of activity. Adrian Tijerina: Mm. Billy Almaguer: But really, what do we actually look at? And so, you know, the questions naturally come down to, and I think, you know, sometimes in the American Kind of church world, we want to count attendance, we want to count giving and baptisms and volunteers, but really, how do you count spiritual maturity? How do we how do we understand? What do we understand and how do we kind of discern what the health of our leaders or what discipleship looks like? And so today we're going to be talking about this whole process. Last time we got together last month was all about that that focus and what pastors and ministry leaders are focusing in on. And today is the measure of that focus. And so the very first kind. kind of question if you will kind of the focus that we're going to be jumping into here in a second is really around this idea well why should we measure something why do we need to measure anything in ministry can't we just go out and do it and so I want to just turn our attention to some scripture Acts chapter 20 verse 28 and it says therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock among you which the Holy Spirit has made you overseer so here in this scripture Paul tells us tells leaders that tells us to take heed he tells us to pay attention To watch over and to basically kind of know what's happening, right? We gotta know what's going on. And he's talking to shepherds. And when God has entrusted people and our resources to us, then we've got to be accountable for that. So I want to throw a couple of questions out there to our panel. I'm gonna start with you, Adrian. Adrian Tijerina: Okay. Billy Almaguer: But maybe looking at Acts chapter 20, verse 28, what does this teach us about the responsibility of a pastor to maybe consider paying attention to the condition of the church that they're leading or ministry that they're leading? Adrian Tijerina: Yeah, you know, Billy, that's a great question. I think one of the best ways that we can have a pulse on the health of a church is to really be aware of the spiritual condition of the flock that we're shepherding, but also just for us to see how the church responds to the mission and the call of God as a whole. I think that's really the the biggest question for a church. Do we know the mission? Do we know the purpose of the church? And how do we respond when God actually is moving in our midst, when God's doing something exciting and new? I think that call for us to be aware of the flock is is crucial. I also think of First Peter when he says, Shepherd the flock that's among you. So we're meant to be among the people, meant to be co-laborers and going alongside them to see what God is up to and how God is moving. And through that process, I think we can kind of see that the health of of the church. We can see how God will continue to bless his work and how we can strengthen the the the church around, you know, the the flock of God. And so that's really been my biggest desire as in a revitalization place, in a place of you know, facilitating revitalization, really taking a look at the the flock and seeing their spiritual condition and then growing them to have a desire for the mission of God. That's been a big a big changer for us just to see God do something special and then keep walking in that direction with him. Billy Almaguer: Stuff. What do you guys think? Daniel, Manola, what do you guys think? Manolo Matos: yeah, I I think the call to to pastor a church is i within that responsibility. I think that we do have to keep an eye on the spiritual condition of of the people. Right? I think that there are obviously things that we can measure and numbers and all these things we could maybe talk about later, but I think that I think that are we accomplishing what God has called us to do, as pastors, as leaders, as a church, in in order to To lead forward in order to take people in that journey where God wants to impress his image upon us and transform us and take the gospel out to the world, I think that we do need to, as pastors, know where people are at. And so I definitely think paying attention to some of those things in the spiritual aspect and the spiritual health of the church is so important. Daniel Williams: I think too one area that you could measure or think about is what you don't want. So when I think about the anti- of just numbers like baptisms, how many people, budget, like the numbers aspect, I think of fruit. So I want to look for like the fruit of the spirit. do people are people full of joy? Are they disciplined? Do they have love? But I could also think look for things of the flesh. And I could say, wow, my whole congregation is backbiting, unforgiving. They're not generous and they're just unkind people. that's Adrian Tijerina: Mm. Daniel Williams: gonna be a trigger to me as well. And so I don't want to just look and measure the things that I I want, but I could actually measure and understand the health of the church by seeing unhealthy habits within our flock. do people stick around? Are they loving? and just think about how they even behave and interact. Are they applying the word of God? Are they going just living like the the pagans and people in the world, you know, that just don't ignore ignor the the people of God. So so Adrian Tijerina: Yeah. Daniel Williams: yeah, I I also look for the things that are not happening or maybe happening that are go against God's word to measure health and those type of things as well. Adrian Tijerina: You know, Daniel, I really like that a lot because the challenge we have as pastors is that those sorts of things, those indicators, come up when life happens, right? When situations arise. Maybe you have a an event that you're, you know, aiming your ministry toward, and then you sort of see what happens and you have a a moment of reflection. That's the challenge, is because these things don't just it's it's not just a snapshot that you can take. It's it's sort of a you have to kind of sense the whole flow and the whole health as a whole. And so I I agree. That's a it's a challenge to get to get a snapshot or a picture of that because it's kind of a moving target in some sense. Billy Almaguer: Yeah, and I think when you look at it, you know, we're in one way we're connecting the calling to what we're doing, and the stewarding of what God has called us to do. I that's shepherding, right? And and shepherding is an active thing. You don't just, hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna check out from shepherding for a period of time. I mean, it's you're you're kind of that that's just what you're doing. And when we're kind of connecting this paying attention to really faithfully shepherd what God has called us to do, I think there's wisdom in that. And in fact, Knowing the state of your flock is a wise thing. I mean, it says in Proverbs 27, 23, be diligent to know the state of your flocks and attend to your herds. So the command is pretty simple, right? To the shepherd to know the state of your flock, to not assume, to to not guess, to not hear about it from someone else, but to actually know, to do life Adrian Tijerina: Mm. Billy Almaguer: and to be integrated in a way. So I think there's a connection there. And so biblical measurement I think is more than just numbers. And I know churches. We have our spreadsheets perhaps, or we have ways that we kind of count, but but it really comes down to having really an an awareness. And so maybe let me throw this question out there, Daniel. I'll throw this one to you first and then the brothers others can jump in. But what does it actually mean for a pastor to know the state of his flock? What does that look like practically for you? What does that mean to you? Daniel Williams: I think I think to know the state of the flock is relational. Just said the sheep know the shepherd's voice. And so I needed to not only be around them, but I need to have a relationship. And part of this I would probably say as a pastor that we don't think about, we need to be vulnerable and let people know us as well. Obviously, we want to ask questions, we want to get to know them. But I think as I have mutual edification with the body and know their gifts, they know mine, and we minister and do stuff together, we can actually know each other in a relational way. And so for me, I'm always about building relationships. guy on our board at our church today, I just stopped by, his mom went to the hospital and just had coffee with him, talking, seeing how he's doing. you know, there's there's things that in relationships, it's there's nuance. my relationship with my daughter and my wife are totally different, although I love them both. And so I may take my my daughter on a daddy-daughter date, but it's gonna have different activities than if I take my wife on a date. And so you know, it's just a matter of when I think of relationally building, understanding who I'm ministering to, and and as I get to know them, minister them that would actually benefit and bless them. Adrian Tijerina: Yeah, Billy Almaguer: Good. Adrian Tijerina: I agree. I agree, Daniel. And I think, you know, when it comes to the intentional aspect of it, I think that's really crucial because we can sense the the health of a team of people, or we can sense that, or we can take time to get to know the individual as well. You know, so if if there's a particular person who maybe has a a a situation arise or a struggle, as a pastor, we need to take time to minister to the one as well as minister to the to the whole. So yeah, I agree I think that the intentional aspect of that relationship is super crucial too. So I like that a lot, Daniel. Manolo Matos: Yeah, and I also I I like that word as a as a key kind of A key concept for the question that you're asking about knowing the state of the state of the flock, right? In in the word being relationship. Because I think that we can easily look at attendance, participation, serving, all these metrics that we like to keep our eyes on. But I think that if we don't have those relationships, you know, we could also be blind to this the actual state of the people in our churches. And so I think there is a A kind of a dangerous disconnect between the numbers in our metrics and our spreadsheets and the actual lives that the people are leave living in our churches. And I think so. I just agree so much with just the aspect of intentionality and relationships. Creating, you know, pathways for people to give you feedback and to see, you know, to check on people and to help those who you lead to do that with others as well. Billy Almaguer: That's good, Manona. I want to ask another question for you. And I think for you and Adrian especially, you know, Adrian's got two churches. You've got a church, you've got a Bible college, and then you you know, you got a lot of things going on, a lot of people, a lot of different things happening. And one of the things that you kind of were diving into and kind of connecting there is like, you know, it's there's a process and there's the people, and and there's kind of this tension in between. But let me ask a question: how do you pay attention to people without reducing a person to a to a number on a spreadsheet. What are the practical things that maybe you do in the context that you're serving? And I love this part because I know this is the part we get to really share with other people, things that work for you, but how do you pay attention to people without reducing them to simply a number? Manolo Matos: Yeah, I I really I think it there's a tension there as well. because we do wanna make sure that what we are doing collectively in in the church as an organization, that we are actually doing what we're called to and that we are spending our efforts and our time and our energy and our resources in a way that is in accordance to our calling and to what we feel like the Lord's leading us to do. But I think that The the tension there is well We're investing all this time in leading all of these initiatives, but are we spending time with people? Are we hearing them out? Are we checking up on people? And so I I am fully aware that I am unable to be that person for everyone in our church. and that's just the configuration of our church. We have we all have different dynamics, different seasons of ministry, and that looks different for everyone. But that realization I think is important because I'm I am I be I think I would be doing a disservice to our community if I spend all of my time like say 90% plus of my time doing that for everyone I would just get burnt out I would and and it would not be enough right even if I did give 24 hours every day 24 seven to doing that checking up on people so so what I I I've learned to do is that we have to recognize where we can move the needle relationally. and that would be checking up with the people that are that are then that you have access to, but then also teaching those that you're leading and teaching those, maybe even in in the leadership of of your own church, to do that with others as well. And then kind of pushing that pushing that forward. And so we I'm not the only one that's doing this, right? So I'm I'm not the only one that's checking up on people. I'm leading others to do that as well and to connect with people. And I think it's so cool when like we can we've just speaking about relationship and and keeping tabs on where people are, maybe spiritually or relationally, when we can see some of those fruits outside of the normal metrics that we have of the things that we do and the events and and all of this where like w when really encouraging thing for me is when I get to see people that are catching up that are meeting up that are that are getting together for even just for fun you know like just to to be in each other's lives or when there's some some tragedy that unfolds or someone's going through a hard thing and then those you know around them in the church they get to you know, check up on them and pray with them and and help them out in the ways that they can. And so yeah, I think I I recognize my limitations and I try to move the needle forward by identifying some of those areas where we can help bring that kind of attitude and that culture of, hey, you know, how are you doing? You know, that it doesn't just come from me. Billy Almaguer: Good. Adrian Tijerina: Yeah, I think for me, and I love that, Manola. Thank you so much for that. I I feel like that's such a crucial aspect is to to kind of be able to have that that deeper connection with folks. You know, you had mentioned it earlier, but to just be approachable is is a big a big encouragement for many people that they know that they can come to you if something comes up, if something arises, if they just need prayer. You know, sometimes people naturally, I mean, I'm ministering here in the South, and naturally there's sort of a division between the pastor and the people. It's like, well, pastor doesn't take out the trash. Well, this pastor does, you know, I take out the trash. I'm helping out, cleaning the, you know, where where it's necessary. And I think to to let someone know that they're not just a number because I'm a number too, right? Like we're all a number in the church too. I mean, I happen to be only one, but I'm also part of the church. And so I think sometimes for us to to to cultivate that that understanding even among the congregation, help someone to not feel like they're merely a number. You know, one thing I love to do is to to bring aside one of our leaders and to really sort of like come with me and let's look at this objectively. Let's let's get out of the position and let's think of the church you know, as best as we can outside of the position that we're in and and and assess things like health and and str you know, the strength and all those things. But when you're able to sort of like bring someone out and and just make yourself part of the church, you know, we're just part of the, you know, the group together, I think that kind of helps someone feel like they're not just a number, but they're also contributing meaningfully toward toward the mission of God as a whole. You know, one place I'll say this, one place I've seen that the most effective has been as I've been raising up leaders to to for preaching and teaching. as I've been cultivating more of a leadership team, teaching team. to kind of allow people to have more of a voice into the the teaching of the church. that that team was just me. And then that became it's just been growing over the over the years. And that's been great to kind of see that continue to be cultivated to help someone contribute to the overall health of the church and stuff. Billy Almaguer: That's good stuff. Daniel Williams: Yeah, it seems like you have to understand when I say build relationally, you can't have relationship with everyone. So the goal is not in a church, especially when it gets larger, to know everyone, but to be known by someone. And so what you really want to do is create a culture of care. And so one practical tool is we have community groups. And so I sort of oversee all the community groups. So in in a few simple texts, I can get the pulse of a hundred people. You know, I can I can get a pulse of these many people and I can send out a message and ask those community groups like, hey, how's the flock in your group? How's the flock in your group? And stuff like that. and then, you know, Adrian, like you said, the practical side of being with the people are there. I always make myself available. I'm the first one there, usually the last one to leave. just because I want to be with people. I may not be able to have conversations with everyone. there may be a line sometimes for prayer, but I'm gonna be available. And I wanna make myself available as much as I can and then from there train people so I'm leading by example and they can see I now I want you to be available to people. And so now you shepherd that little small group, you shepherd that group, you shepherd this group, and then I'll shepherd you guys and we'll do this all together. So making yourself available is great. And then also just creating that culture, leading by example and saying, Hey, here's a practical tool. Be with people, be available and Let's spread the load together. Billy Almaguer: And I would kind of just add a layer just for at least in the way that my mind thinks, just when you when you think about how how God has wired us, around 73% of the population is is present focused, leaving the difference obviously being future focused. And so when you think about people coming into the congregation, they'll have questions like 73% are gonna be saying, What how can this help me here and now? My today, my tomorrow. and tomorrow doesn't extend maybe past today, then you have the the difference. That will be focused on how does this help me, you know, a year from now or five years from now. And I think layering that in sometimes kind of helps, at least as we kind of start thinking about some practical ways of how we measure this. But if we're gonna be thinking about how do we treat people not as a number, we've got to understand how they're wired and how God has made them to know them at some level. And to each and everyone's point, it isn't something that every pastor, you we're not saying you have to know everyone. And in fact, I think some studies would show around 70 relationships is what a normal person would maintain. Unless you're Daniel Williams and you can do like 170. but it's but for most people it's gonna be 70. And but with that said though, I what I'm hearing is is that there are some maybe systems, some ways and some things that people have already started building that fit your personality, that fit your congregation. And that kind of jumps into the next area where I want to go, which is, you know, well, what goes on. A ministry dashboard. And I know when we think of that, there's a love-hate relationship. When I say that word dashboard, some of us probably think I've got that car that the check engine light is the first light that goes on and it's the last light that goes off. Right. We we think of the dashboard as a in its negative context. Like it tells me things I don't want to know, things I can't fix. And it's just always in my face. But I want to kind of rethink a little bit. Yeah, sure, it it gives you some useful information, especially we're talking about a car. It tells you when there's times to check the engine, it tells you your speed, how much fuel you got, temperature warnings, other things like that. There's nothing wrong with that. But we want to think about what does a ministry dashboard look like. And again, the the point isn't to replace shepherding or you know support. With just some sort of thing that we drop people into. You know what? We still have to do the shepherding, but I want to kind of look and maybe ask some questions here on our panel that kind of help us. But I wanna I'm gonna ask Manola, I'm gonna ask you this first because again, I think in your context within doing church and a you know Bible college, you've got a couple different things that are that you're tackling. But what should you, what do you normally look at when it comes to measuring leaders? Now again, leaders in church, leaders in the Bible college, the next generation, what are things that you're looking at? Because in a way that is a dashboard that you're you're using to kind of negotiate where people are going. But maybe t talk us through some of those things that you're using for leaders. Manolo Matos: Yeah, so in the context of of church, well actually both in Bible college and church in in my case, when when I think of our leaders, when I yeah, think about the way that we're working together and moving forward, I think I I like to look at just the leadership culture that we are building. So there are there are details that we like to pay attention to, you know, our KPIs, our goals, our things that we're working towards, or things that we are yeah, basically trying things that we're trying to accomplish. But I think that beyond that, beyond the the list of goals that we may have and that we're working together towards, I think I like to look at just what is a leadership culture that we're promoting, right? and that starts with the leaders, starts with us. You know, how how do we relate to them and how do we, you know, how do we help them bring out to the ministry to the people the the gifts and the talents and the perspectives and the ideas that that they have as well and and and what are what are what are we leading together towards and and what are they leading towards and so I like to I like to keep an eye on like what what is the culture that we are reproducing together. and that is where I can in over the last couple of years I've had a a couple of situations where I where I see the fruit right of a certain leader and I see someone, you know, coming up and they're saying, we were talking to this person and they said, you know, something like this, and it just kinda comes back to me. And it's like, you know, that's when I know, like, hey, like maybe there's a shift that happened, maybe there's something that needs a little bit of instruction or correction, you know, and and so I try to get to know like what what is going on, what is the culture that we are reproducing again, and then having those conversations with our our leaders, right? So it's not just a matter of like are we staying busy? Are we reaching our goals? Are we growing our numbers? I think that it's it's that is the the product a lot of times and and not always but it's it's usually the product of of staying aligned, staying you know, together and doing life together. And so I like to look at, you know, are they overburned, over or overburdened? are they burned out? Are they, you know, are they doing too much? Have I given them too much? You know, and so I just like to make changes according to kind of like, you know, what what I what I see when when I see their leadership as well. Daniel Williams: Nolo, it sounds like you're measuring on your dashboard values. Because when we think about culture, right? You're saying a leader leads. So are you leading with generosity what we value? Are you leading with loving kindness? Are you leading with this? Or, are you leading with this and this? This is we don't want to value this. We want to value this and correcting. And I think that's a really important thing because I think as as the leader of an organization, of a church, the lead pastor should. be in charge of the culture and saying this is what we uphold, this is their value, this is what is accepted, this is what's celebrated, but this is what's not accepted and this is what needs to be corrected. And so having values on on your dashboard is a great, great thing. Billy Almaguer: Good. Adrian Tijerina: You know, I think when you're cultivating leaders, especially, we've talked about this before, but getting to know your sheep, I think also can be getting to know their spiritual giftings or helping them discover their spiritual giftings. You know, for us, I've done a a whole teaching on spiritual gifts. I had assessment that I had everyone take. where they sort of make the best estimate of what they believe. And then part of that is that, you know, and you know, to inquire of somebody close to them to say, hey, tell me what my spiritual gifts are and sort of allow that to tease that out in as far as in the context of church. But you know, having those ideas or sorry, having those facts about somebody can be helpful, but even more important is is seeing how we as pastors can facilitate someone to actually grow in those giftings, to have If they have a gift of hospitality, how are they using it? If they have a gift of service, how are they using it? And so having a a bit in my mind, what I think of is that it can be tricky to have a sort of a a catch-all as far as a pathway for leadership because there's sort of different avenues where someone might ha be intentionally leaning or guided into leadership specifically. So you know, it it it's it can be a little complicated, I think, that I think, but at least in in in my framework. But I think to know somebody's spiritual gifts and then to help them to to use those gifts, I think can be a really big help, you know, just to know know your flock and to help them to to minister. Billy Almaguer: It's good stuff. And I know, Adrian, you you went to Western and when you mentioned the word spiritual gifts, I know that Dr. Gary Bashirs has a love-hate relationship with spiritual gift test. So anyway, just kind of so but to the point Adrian Tijerina: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Billy Almaguer: is is that there are spiritual gifts and we, you know, whether you use the test or not, it it's it's on the pastor there and it's I think it's on leadership to kind of figure out where people can grow and how we're helping them. So I want to kind of look at one thing here. because I know, you know, again. We have a lot of spreadsheets. We we use them and there's nothing wrong with them. But I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you guys here in a second, I'm gonna have you get a little vulnerable and you're gonna think back to the early years of ministry, whether you were a church planner or whatever that is, you were you felt like you were in in in charge of something that God has called you to lead. You know, you were kind of shepherding that. And I want to talk a little bit about some guardrails. Because I think sometimes we can use numbers in an incorrect manner. We can measure the wrong things, certainly. But I want kind of think back, maybe in our lives, and maybe was there something that if you could go back and tell yourself, which you can't, obviously, but if you could just go back and say, like, hey, I'm gonna give you some advice to my younger self, and maybe the thing that you were trying to measure, you know, look at, what would that be? and how would you what would you kind of I guess Say to yourself if you could go back and say, hey, don't don't measure that. Maybe measure this other thing. What would that be? And Daniel, let's start with you. Daniel Williams: For myself personally or for people in the flock? Billy Almaguer: I think it's for for you, for you. What would you stop measuring? What would you look at differently now with your experience? And what would you tell the younger version of you? Like, hey, this is an important thing to measure, not that. Daniel Williams: I would say not that, the output. So I would say measure the inputs more than the outputs. Oftentimes as leaders, we want to correct, we want to think about did the service go well? How was the flow? What about this? How many people came to the event? Did we hit ahead? All this different. I would focus and tell myself, do what's right, focus on the input, let God give the output. So hey, study as hard as you can. Don't put down put put yourself down for how if people receive that. make do as best as you can to prepare and plan, but ultimately trust God, He's the one in charge of that out stuff. So I think sometimes and especially when we start ministry, we think so much of output and our identity, our value based off of if people show up to event, if they don't show up to event, and we measure those things feeling good or great. And I feel better if I can go into the pulpit prepared, prayed up, and let the Spirit of God use me. more than if there was a hundred people or five people there. I'm I'm I'm happier now that I know that I did what I could do and if five people show up, it doesn't matter how many people are gonna be there. I'm really happy with that. So that that sort of difference of input and output. Billy Almaguer: Stuff. Yeah, I think for me, I'll share one for myself and then we'll let Adriana Manolo jump in. But I think for myself, I would say, I think early on, you know, we we would measure how many visitors we had. not necessarily a bad thing. Like you want to kind of capture that. But what that became to me early on was I would measure how many visitors we had, which would then turn into the following week, which would be how many came back or didn't come back. And then you would start to think, okay. Did I do something wrong? Did I, you know, was it something I said? You know, what was that? And I think that that wasn't the intention of counting it, but it certainly was in a more immature version of myself. you know, because I was doing what God had called me to do, but when you start looking at numbers, numbers can lie. And I think for me that was something that I learned pretty early on. Like now I'm like, Okay, cool, we had some visitors, I'm I'm gonna call and email them like we normally do, but It's not up to me, to have them get planted here. We would love to have planted here and to grow in this fellowship, but God has to put in the place that he wants So Manolo Matos: Mm. That's so good. if you're saying, you know, if we could hop on a time machine and go back and just talk to our younger versions, I think, you know, I I would kind of take the question to like in a different direction because I think, you know, when I when we started Adrian Tijerina: Okay. Manolo Matos: pastoring, I was you know, by the grace of God. Yeah, by the grace of God we are where we are. But I think that I just didn't measure anything, you know. I I was just flying Adrian Tijerina: you Manolo Matos: blind and just doing whatever, you know, whatever worked, whatever we were already doing. and and so I think I I would if I could speak to my younger version as a leader, I would say, hey, you know, you need to start start paying attention to, you know, is this actually, you know, is this actually working? Are you you what impact is this having on people? And and just pay attention, you know, because I think I was just so Adrian Tijerina: . Manolo Matos: I yeah, I guess I was so young and experienced, new to ministry, just in love with the idea of Adrian Tijerina: . Manolo Matos: of sharing the gospel with people and teaching the scriptures to people and walking with people. It's just measuring just wasn't a part of my of my mind frame. I just I would encourage me to pay attention. because I think it's important, you know, as as we pay attention to those things. And I think it's maybe bringing it back to what we were talking about, having a dashboard and stuff like that. I think that it it is why why do we do that? You know, why would we have a pulse on the church? And I think it's to me, I think it's so that we can make better decisions. I think it's so that we can pray for people well. I think that it's so that we can pastor people well. And so I not that I wasn't doing that well before, but there's a difference between like effort and intention and effectiveness. And and so I think that early on I just wasn't super clear up on that. Billy Almaguer: Well, I'll add in there too, and this is this might sound very shallow and it's not very spiritual, but I'm gonna tell you the practical reality is that every year when it's our our anniversary as you know of our launch Adrian Tijerina: So. Billy Almaguer: date as a church, we're coming up on 11 in January. I'll always look and I'll see how many adults do we have? Because every time we have our our birthday celebration as a church, we have cupcakes. And I love cupcakes and I want to make sure there's one or two left over so I can take those things home. So I think it's good to count things sometimes. Adrian Tijerina: Mm-hmm. Billy Almaguer: And it doesn't have to be overly spiritual. It could even be for a less than spiritual reason, which is make sure you got enough cupcakes, make sure you got enough coffee. I mean, well, that's that's terrible if you run out of coffee. or just whatever the case, but make sure you have enough Bibles. I mean, just whatever the thing may be. And I think that's Again, it it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's just something we have to wrestle with. And again, I don't want to throw everything in one box or the other, say it's good to count or not good to count. Like you have to kind of figure that out. but I want to jump into a question here and I want to throw this one at Adrian, because I know Adrian he's he just told us he's he's gonna go for his PhD and and and he's jumping in here and he's gonna go in at a at a much deeper level. And I think this question is certainly made for him. but Adrian, here's here's the question. Adrian Tijerina: Hmm. Billy Almaguer: What is the difference between trusting God? Okay, so we're trusting him in faithfulness and also ignoring reality. What's the what's the difference here if we if if we're going to be trusting God versus ignoring the reality, which I think numbers can provide? Now I'm not asking Adrian Tijerina: Mm-hmm. Billy Almaguer: you to pull out 20 scriptures, but I would love to hear that perspective on that. Adrian Tijerina: Yeah. So one more time, I just want to make sure I get it. The difference between trusting God and ignoring reality. Yeah. Great question. Billy Almaguer: And ignoring reality. Yeah. I mean some one case, like you could say like yeah, hey, I feel called to do A, B, and C. You feel like God has called you to do that. But the reality is you don't have the money, the people, and that might be Adrian Tijerina: Sure. Billy Almaguer: a ten year p dream or whatever that may be. Just just as an example. Adrian Tijerina: Yeah, Billy Almaguer: But yeah. Adrian Tijerina: yeah, I think the key as in my time in ministry, the key is to understand that God's thoughts are above our hearts, his ways are above our ways, and the vision that God has given you, like you just mentioned, that might take a longer time than you might have imagined. I think for many people, unfortunately, we sort of want the immediate, we want the immediate reward of our our labors. And I think when we're using our spiritual gifts, we expect God to immediately respond the way that we want him to respond. You mentioned ignoring reality. I think for unfortunately for many people, you know, you feel called to go forward in a particular area of ministry and you begin to use your spiritual gifts. You have to have trusted, you know, mentors or co-laborers that can speak into your life and say, know, pastor, I'm not sure if this is really your gift. I'm not really sure if this is the direction we should be going. You know, for someone to have that relationship with someone else, to have them speak into your life, especially if you've known them for a long time, can really help you avoid ignoring reality. I've known many great brothers who are excellent teachers, but they were not pastors. And so they believe that the the ministry of the pastor was simply teaching and that was wrong. You know, like they were missing the mark. But I've also known so many pastors that are great shepherds, but they weren't invested into the long, deep development of the sheep and that in itself was misguided too. And so I think we have to have a good balance between how God is using us today and also how God is growing us as ministers. but then also to have people to speak into our life to tell us, maybe when we're falling short than what we're expecting and not ignoring the truth of the situations we find ourselves. Billy Almaguer: It's good. Daniel Williams: Yeah, when I when I think about that phrase like trust God, don't ignore reality. I just think include God in reality, in your reality, right? And Billy Almaguer: Hm. Yeah, it's good. Adrian Tijerina: Mm-hmm, that's good. Manolo Matos: Yeah. Daniel Williams: so, you know, obviously there's everything we do is basically impossible without God. I mean, we're Adrian Tijerina: Mm-hmm. Daniel Williams: trying to transform people's lives and give Bible studies and pray and I I mean, but when I look at an impossible situation, even to move into a building or Don't have funds to do this ministry and have these hopes and dreams. I want to include God in that reality because He could walk me and tell me, no, don't go forward. No, despite that mountain, keep on moving forward, whatever it may be. And that's what builds my trust. So I want to have mentors and stuff for blind spots, things I don't see. But oftentimes it's the things I do see that I just think that I have to do my own strength and don't include God in that that really gets me in a lot of trouble. I just want to include him, and that's why I think. Even when we think about shepherding people, prayer is such an important thing to pray and include God and give me wisdom or Lord, you have to do this, speak to them, whatever it may be. But just yeah, we don't we don't want to ignore reality. It's hard to face, but God is greater than any situation we can have. And so we Adrian Tijerina: Mm-hmm. Daniel Williams: just want to include him in that. Manolo Matos: That's so good, Daniel. I like your one-liners. They're awesome. Daniel Williams: Thank Billy Almaguer: Mm-hmm. Manolo Matos: but I I'll share a quick story about that. I was just thinking back maybe 10 years ago, we used to have a a Sunday night Bible study that was different from our Sunday morning, and it was more of like a believers night. it was a it was a it was a cool service, but We we got together with a small pastoral team that we had back then and we decided that we were gonna teach through the through the minor prophets on Sunday nights. For twelve weeks we were gonna take one Sunday night and we were gonna teach through one of the books of the minor prophets just in order. Adrian Tijerina: Mm-hmm. Manolo Matos: and and we thought, you know, this is You know, we're trusting the Lord. This is a super cool project because we're sharing you know, we're teaching together as a team and we're teach teaching the scriptures to people and and and it basically over the over the next twelve weeks, we basically killed that service. we you know, it was it went from being like vivacious and like r people being excited being there to just dead and and we killed it in twelve weeks. and so I think that we had to just kinda sit there and and just think, you know, what did we just you know what did we just do? And so, you know, it was it was good hearted. We had a good intention, you know, we wanted to teach people and everything, but we was just ignoring completely the reality of Is this actually helping anybody? Not that we can't teach the minor prophets. I mean, I did it again a year ago and it was awesome. but but it was just you know not paying attention to what actually, you know, how that is landing, I guess, with people and the reality of that. Billy Almaguer: Good stuff. I appreciate y'all sharing that wisdom and the stories here. I think there's certainly things that we can all identify with. I want to kind of begin landing in and I want to ask a question. And this may be a story Adrian Tijerina: you Billy Almaguer: from each of you. Maybe it's something you've seen, maybe it was something that you personally kind of went through. But I think this is kind of where some of that gold for people who are listening, because a lot of us as pastors, ministry leaders, we begin to struggle. And we start listening to podcasts, we start reaching out to others when it becomes a crisis with whatever we're going through. And so maybe let me throw this question out there and we'll start with Daniel here first. Daniel, here's a question for you. What are pastors most likely to overlook until it becomes a crisis? And this is something that maybe could have been on a dashboard, and that's kind of the whole point, like seeing it before it gets here to understand it's coming. But what are pastors most likely to overlook, in your opinion, and maybe what you've seen until it becomes a crisis? Daniel Williams: I think a lot of people have a problem with correction and conflict. And so when we ignore conflict and correction, which is our job as shepherds, to rebuke and to teach and to counsel people, we don't want to face the problem. we may be afraid of what's going to happen. And eventually when we ignore the problem, we become the problem. Because now all people around us start saying, Well, don't they see that? They need to correct that. They need to do this, and all of a sudden Adrian Tijerina: Okay. Daniel Williams: it actually turns into a bigger crisis than just saying, hey, stop, you know, having your child run around in the sanctuary. Now everyone's looking to the example of you. And so I think what we tend to overlook is we're very slow to confront things and be proactive on things. And when we let problems just sort of marinate in the fellowship, it becomes very stinky very quick and a lot more people know about that. Billy Almaguer: Good. Adrian Tijerina: Yeah, if I could jump in, think just when you asked that question, one thing that came to my mind was the spiritual condition of the pastor, of you. I think unfortunately many people We are so focused on loving and serving others, and rightfully so, that if we're not careful, things get pushed into a crisis mode when you find yourself falling short on many different levels. And so it's important to have other pastors, other ministers, whether it's within your church, if that's possible. I know a lot of pastors aren't able to do that. Just with ecclesiology, maybe they don't feel comfortable. with those really frank and open conversations. I mean, that's just the truth of the matter. But you need to have someone. You got to have someone to talk to, your spouse. You've got to have faithful brothers that can come alongside you. But unfortunately, I think for many pastors, they put themselves aside for so long that that becomes the crisis. And that's not a great place to be. Billy Almaguer: That's a good word. Manolo Matos: Mm-hmm, that's so good. I I would just add one quick thing. I think it's talk about you know crisis in the ministry and I I think that was something that's happened to us over the years is that we kind of get accustomed to the way that we're doing things, whether it be our events, our ministries. And we kind of like marry into those programs and those traditions that sometimes we started at at one point or we inherited. and I think that sometimes if we're not careful and we kind of overlook is is how those things can consume our resources and our energy. And it just kind of You know, we kind of drift from our mission because we are so focused on the things, the activities that we're doing. And so I think that that's one of the things that we also can let become a crisis sometimes when we're busy but we're not being effective at all. Billy Almaguer: Yeah, I certainly love the the soul care aspect of that because I think, you know, again, if pastors typically overlook their own spiritual health and will go fall on their face, they'll sacrifice family, they'll sacrifice all these things because they want the numbers to look better, they want things to be better. And the desire in the heart isn't necessarily wrong, but what it's doing is it's destroying the first aspect of being a follower of Christ, right? Being a kingdom citizen is is having that relationship with our Heavenly Father and just That is the source, that is the life. And and it's through that that the empowerment and the spirit and all those things, he just works in that way. And it's through that relationship. And so I love the aspect there that you guys were sharing on the soul care side of things. I would say, you know, a scripture again, you know, the whole point, and and notice that we didn't tell you these are the eight things you need to do that you need to measure. I mean, you can measure a lot of different things, and and it really comes down to how you're wired, how God has wired you, and what he's called. Adrian Tijerina: . Billy Almaguer: You to do specifically. But hopefully hearing from different leaders and maybe in the context of how they look at this stuff has been a blessing to you. But we know it says in First Corinthians 4 2, it says, moreover, it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. And so before we get too crazy on the numbers, I mean the faithfulness and the and the calling to obedience is certainly there. And so as we wrestle with that, maybe the question that we need to think about for some of us, maybe some practical steps. Again, we don't want to tell you exactly what to measure, but maybe you need to ask yourself the question, you know, what has God entrusted you with to maybe pay more more attention to, closer attention to? Is it is it your people? Is it your leaders? Is it your finances? Is it maybe your discipleship process? Is it your own health as a leader? We hit on all those different topics and they're all yeses. We need we need to certainly look at them. But maybe a couple of questions. You can ask yourself as maybe kind of a little bit of homework, I would encourage with is maybe first one would be, you know, what has God entrusted to you? What has he called you to do? And remember that because that's your calling. Number two, what does health look like? And again, that's something that could change over time as things grow and evolve. You know, Monolo shared that, you they they started a service, they were going to go through the minor prophets, but then that that call to no longer, you know, wasn't going to continue on. So it could be something that could start, but what does he call what does that health look like? And then number three would be how would we know if we're becoming healthier? And again, the idea is that we're able to look back, take a snapshot and be able to kind of discern, is this something that God is doing? Is that is that a healthier thing? Number four, what are we currently not paying attention to? Because certainly there's things in your own church, maybe in your own heart, maybe in your own life that needs attention that you're not paying attention to. Number five is what do we need to start reviewing regularly? And again, some of us might do that by calendar. I'm not telling you you've all got to become task-oriented people because some people aren't wired that way. But whatever way you need to work through looking at things in a regular way would would be smart. But ultimately it comes down to the question of what belongs on your ministry dashboard because again we can't faithfully steward what we refuse to pay attention to. And so hopefully this has been a blessing to you and that's a whole heartbeat behind this podcast is the to hopefully address some topics in a way that it Gets you to dive deeper into what God is calling you to do and how He's calling you to lean. So to the panel, I thank you so much for being on here today, share your wisdom. And to the rest of you, just continue to follow Jesus, cultivate people, and to begin to maybe look at some of these things this month and see what God may have you put on your ministry dashboard. You guys have a great one and may God continue to bless you.