153- Most Churches Need Revitalization (with Thom Rainer)

[00:00:00] Welcome to Strength for Todays Pastor, Conversations with Current Senior Pastors and Leaders which will strengthen and help you in your pastoral ministry. And now, here's your host Bill Holdridge of Pointing in Ministries. Welcome to Podcast 153. So today it's a blessing and a real honor to welcome Thom Rainer.

[00:00:30] Our subject will be Church revitalization, a subject that I believe Dr. Rainer is an expert on. Thom Rainer is a pastor, a president, former president and CEO of Lifeway Christian Resources, prior to that he served at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary for 12 years. And

[00:00:50] he became the founding dean of the Billy Graham School of Missions and Evangelism. Currently he's serving as the founder and CEO of Church Answers, a huge effective resource for training, equipping and revitalizing churches and ministers. So Thom I just want to thank

[00:01:07] you for joining us today and being willing to be part of this discussion. Well, thank you, Bill and thank you for the ministry that you have in those who are part of your team. I know y'all are doing a great job at the Kingdom in particular in

[00:01:19] the area of revitalization so it's good to be here. So a while back, I read an article you wrote called Three Types of Church revitalization. And I read that article really helped me and our team better understand what we do.

[00:01:35] We had previously had the mission statement, strengthening pastors to strengthen churches but since then we've realized that really our heart is for church revitalization and that's why we went directly to the senior pastor to help them. But in that article, you wrote

[00:01:50] that over 300,000 churches in America need significant revitalization. So starting off, what do you think that number is today is the church on an upswing as the church continuing to decline? You know, but I don't remember that article. I don't actually remember that article,

[00:02:06] but I hope it did a good job on it. But if that article was written pretty COVID, there would be significant changes if it's been written post-COVID. It would not be that significant changes. Let's look at the data each just a moment. Most of the statisticians will who

[00:02:21] look at churches say they're 350,000 in the U of S alone. We know that there are at least 400,000 because our number of churches without websites, telephone numbers and so the numbers were around 400,000. That's close enough. Of that 400,000 we are fairly confident in saying that 300 to 350,000

[00:02:41] needs some type of serious revitalization. And when we say serious revitalization, let me just give it an example. I am speaking to a church today tonight presenting them our consultation findings at a church in Louisiana. And we look at different ways that, okay, here's the health

[00:02:58] of your church and what do you need to do? One of the things that we do infrequently is we say close the doors. Even if you do close the doors, we say let's find another church

[00:03:10] that can use this for for the gospel purposes. We're not doing that with this church, but what we are doing is that we're seeing that this church is in serious need of revitalization.

[00:03:22] And once we start looking at how deep it is, what we're going to do with that church is we're going to focus on one area. And basically they haven't been reaching people with the gospel. We could focus on fellowship, discipleship, we could focus on worship, we could

[00:03:39] focus on facility. But this church will likely not be a church two years from now unless they really start reaching people. And we don't want to reach people for the gospel just for the survival of a church because they think every church would be reaching people for the

[00:03:55] gospel. We were a man, when Jesus started his earthly ministry he called his first disciples and he says come with me and what? I will make you fishers of men or I'll make you fish as a

[00:04:07] people. So his ministry began the call to follow him and to make fishers our evangelism. How did his earthly ministry end? Actually, when I you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem Judea, the Sumeric to the ends of the earth. In other words, it began with evangelism

[00:04:22] and ended with evangelism. We could do the same thing by looking at the example that early church in Acts 2. And we could see how the Jerusalem church emphasized reaching that does not diminish

[00:04:34] the importance of any other other elements of what a church does. But many of the revitalizations that are taking place are just simple and at least they're radically simple and that there's no

[00:04:45] outward focus, there's no attempt to reach people with the gospel. And we say that somewhere between 350,000 and 360,000 churches today. So in that article which you can't remember writing that's, I'm sorry. Well you're so, you know, you write so much but it uses the story that's

[00:05:05] written in the prophecy of Haggai as a reference point. And so in a real sense Israel was in great need of revitalization. The temple was still in relative ruins and they were living in their

[00:05:16] paneled houses and all of those kinds of things. Their priorities were messed up. So maybe you could review that story and how you see that is tying into the whole revitalization concept and what this church in Louisiana is going to need to do to be effective tonight.

[00:05:33] Well Haggai is one of the only two chapter book of Old Testament and it's a so phenomenal, minor prophet book and I'd like to put the adjective minor before it because that may indicate not just length but also insignificance. But this is an incredible story these two chapters

[00:05:52] and the full chapter one is about rebuilding the house of God and that is what happens in revitalization. Not temples, not at a specific location we know that God through your spirit is omnipresent

[00:06:06] but rebuilding the house of God, what happened to the temple? So God had given those who were the rag tag remnant, the opportunity to go back to Jerusalem. He used a pagan kings

[00:06:21] of Perjut to allow it to take place but they go back into Jerusalem and course the walls are down, the places in ruins and the house of God no longer exist. So they start building the foundation.

[00:06:35] They, the gods had rebuilt my house, they started building foundation, a decade lapses and they have done nothing beyond that. They've gone an entire 10 years without doing anything to rebuild the house of God. What does he tell them and how God won't ate? Therefore, go. It's just

[00:06:53] like it's like Acts 1-8. Haggown 1-8 says go, this time go we'll get going up into the mountains, get the lumber, get the timber and rebuild my house. So the command to rebuild the house of God

[00:07:04] and how God won't eat is very similar to the Haggown, the Acts 1-8 command for us that we are to go, we're to be going and build that's quite frankly it sounds oversimplified but this

[00:07:17] the reality, many churches are not thriving and growing because they are not trying to grow. They're not trying to reach people with the gospel. That number is for numbers say but people for the gospel

[00:07:31] say and that's what we're seeing quite often in many of these churches and so the church tonight I'll be telling them there's so many things we can look at but I want to work with you for the

[00:07:42] next six maybe 12 months. Focus again, plan reaching those where God has placed you in this community and an extra light fashion for such a time as this. So that's a long answer to a short question

[00:07:55] but you got me into Haggown 1. I ended up doing a little bit more than I should have. No, no, that's perfect because what you're talking about is the great commission. I mean,

[00:08:05] that is the vision of the church as I understand it is the great commission and if we fail at that then you know, that's the bottom line. So in that article you wrote like the rebuilding of the

[00:08:17] temple there are two foundational issues that must be addressed in church revitalization first. The church much have the right leaders on board second the behavioral patterns of the church members must change. No infusion of methodologies or innovations can take place until these two

[00:08:32] issues are addressed such as the reason most revitalizations fail and only a few succeed. Let's look at reapproaches and then you go into three approaches but so those two things really struck

[00:08:45] me they were key points that was obvious in the text but I hadn't thought of it in terms of church revitalization maybe could come in. Well in Haggown 1, the first thing that we see is God addressing three leaders he's addressing a political leader, a praise leader and a

[00:09:08] prophetic leader. Those three leaders are not there coincidentally. God is saying if we're going to rebuild our house, my house, if we're going to rebuild my house we must begin with those who will be

[00:09:23] leaving the people and so the first thing God does and Haggown 1 is he says, he says address this too and then he gives the three in the three offices which means his comprehensive leadership

[00:09:36] prophetic, cracely political leaders and then he goes to the people and he says, these people say it is not time to build my house. You have to take that at an incredulous tone. God is saying

[00:09:52] are they really saying that rhetorical question? Do they really mean that? They don't think it's a good time to build the house of God. Now is the time to rebuild the house of God? Well I

[00:10:04] weren't they rebuilding the house because they were dwelling in their own panel houses which means they were comfortable. They were taking that which should have been used for God's house, used it for comfort in their house and quite frankly in many of our churches our churches are

[00:10:20] not driven by a purpose of a great commission they're driven by a preference of church members and so it has to change that the leaders have to lead and the people have to start putting

[00:10:33] guide and others and the world before themselves. It makes me think of this trend of growing churches so much of it has to do with transfer growth, some of which is healthy growth which is needed,

[00:10:48] some of which is, and if it's not somehow connected to evangelism then it's not going to have any sustainability I think that's what I'm hearing you say. I love the fact the political leader, the prophetic leader and the priestly leader, that's our Jesus, prophet, priest and king

[00:11:06] and what a beautiful picture that is. Absolutely. So it seems to me, Tom that and less leaders are honest about their current condition. Seriously honest and have the ability to do some some healthy introspection and they're willing to take a deep and honest dive into their own

[00:11:29] hearts into their own practices. Revitalization isn't going to happen. You're talking about addressing reality and making certain that we understand what the real situation is. I know that you did largely with one group of churches. Historically, I have dealt a

[00:11:49] good bit of my ministry with Southern Baptist Church. His church answers has far more denominations and non-denominations than Southern Baptist but you introduce me as being the former president of the lifeway which is a Southern Baptist organization. So I feel very comfortable

[00:12:05] talking about them as an example. Now there's not just the totality of the church in any one place but as an example Southern Baptist at its peak had 16 million members are now below 14

[00:12:16] million. At its peak they were headed for a half a million conversions or baptisms a year. Now they were way below 200,000 and one thing that I see missing in a lot of Southern Baptist life today

[00:12:28] and again I'm not trying to make Southern Baptist the focus I'm going to use in his example. One of the things that I see missing is an awareness that we are not reaching people with the gospel now.

[00:12:39] We have to admit reality before we can seek a solution. You don't go to a physician, unless you admit that you are sick or that you need help and so that is one of the big things

[00:12:51] that is missing in revitalization today but let me say this COVID accelerated and exacerbated trends or already going on and so that has created a new awareness that did not exist because it was

[00:13:05] sudden instead of gradual which can be a blessing because if it's gradual you don't notice it week by week. Wow so lack of evangelism lack of great commission vision that's that's

[00:13:18] a pandemic in and of itself really but so just thinking about that what are you going to recommend to this church tonight I mean it's going to unfold over six to 12 months but I know you got

[00:13:32] a webinar coming up on this subject of you know from church answers maybe you could bug that a little bit because I just think we need some ideas I mean we need to be shaken out of our present

[00:13:44] state of lethargy and into a whole new way of approaching being Christians. I use the phrase that I often have to explain is too word since outward focus but outward focus I mean that you're looking

[00:13:59] beyond the walls of the church and I always am clear we need to take care of the ministry to our members we need to disciple our members that is not an exclusion of that but it is a new focus

[00:14:11] beyond the walls of the church so we call it outward focus and this particular church which you're right it kind of lands with the webinar that we'll have at the time of this recording

[00:14:21] the next week so I'm not sure exactly how I'll land up in your calendar but but it's it's the whole situation of we have got to do with this church basically triage we could do a lot of things

[00:14:37] they've got some facility considerations they've got some leadership issues particularly among the lay level there a lot of paths we could go they don't have any type of intentional discipleship taking place but here's the reality all of those are going to be a move point in 18 to 24 months

[00:14:59] unless the triage of an outward focus is done which is basically we're going to point them into an evangelistic renewal now when you work with the church you you can I just say okay have an outward

[00:15:11] focus you have to have specificity and concrete examples and when I do that bill I'm always hesitant to do so because I don't want to suggest that a plan or a program or a resource is the answer

[00:15:27] I simply want to say this is an answer so you'll get an idea what to do so what are we going to do with this church we are going to recommend that they go through a 30 day process immediately

[00:15:39] that we call the help initiative the help initiative is a 30 day kick start to get our culture thinking beyond the walls every day for 30 days you are praying for our opportunity to share the gospel you are one of the days you're actually going to your neighborhood and walk

[00:15:55] about homes and pray for them everything that you do for 30 days is about reaching people beyond the walls of the church we've been doing this for several months now we're churches and we're seeing

[00:16:06] phenomenal results I mean phenomenal results and what that means is guys spirit isn't this and why is guys spirit in it I don't want to presume a plan but I will just simply say these 30 days are

[00:16:20] infused with prayer and evangelism prayer and evangelism often separated they're just so we're going to jump start them for 30 days to do that then we bring in another idea and then what else we're

[00:16:35] going to do with that we're going to say all right for that's days one through 30 days 30 through 60 we have some other plans but they're 63 and then we're going to take you through it again

[00:16:45] and maybe there will be some new people that are in here my point is this we're taking the on through a 12 month plan where for nine of those months they are specifically doing something evangelistic for another pragmatic example again resources not panistly it's not an answer

[00:17:05] to everything but we take them through another resource called invite your one and we say okay with Easter coming up in 2024 we want you to invite as many people as possible and we'll tell you how to

[00:17:17] do it and church members have never invited someone to church specifically they may have had a general invitation but they've never done that and that becomes revolutionary even as simple

[00:17:30] as it may sounds my point on this is that for nine of the 12 months we are doing something to reengage them through their mind their hearts and their actions on reaching beyond the walls

[00:17:44] of the church that to me has had been much more effective than saying here's I checklist the things to do to make your building nicer whatever we will get into that by the way but only

[00:17:55] in the context of the great commission when we talk about it so and just just give you one more example for their facility this particular church has one guest parking spot that means

[00:18:07] to not expecting anyone wow yes far so you know we say look guest parking is not going to make your church healthy but what you've made a statement that you don't expect people to come when

[00:18:18] you only have one guest parking so though it's all about this triage of moving the church to an outward focus so the 30 days it basically awakens them to the need in their community and maybe

[00:18:32] give them ideas on what they can do and I love the fact that you're not trying to get specific with them you're engaging them they have to be part of the process of deciding how they're

[00:18:42] going to reach their community but you're providing the impetus you're pushing them because they want to be pushed in that direction and exactly it just seems like that's what's going on I mean

[00:18:52] Jesus told the disciples lift up your eyes look on the fields they're white into harvest you know there it's Samaria and they saw something that had been seen before that there was a harvest

[00:19:02] of Samaritans coming in their direction so let's go for it let's do it and remember Jesus said in more than one gospel I'm thinking specifically Matthew that he didn't say that we got a prey

[00:19:15] that there will be some people that we can reach he said the fields are wide into harvest therefore prey for laborers to go into the fields the fields there we have this idea that in this

[00:19:27] pulse Christian culture that we can't reach anybody that's quite the country got that spirit is still working mildly like he did in first century Greek or Roman culture he is doing and so even

[00:19:38] an our culture today the opportunities are abundant we just have to be obedient and totally agree so you know there's so much that could be said about this Tom what what kind you've got

[00:19:52] so many resources if somebody wanted to plug into your resources and maybe this doesn't get published until after the webinar but where would you point them to get started with getting some

[00:20:03] of this kind of input is going in their church I am excited about our resource called the Hopenesative and you can go to church answers.com and you'll see it there are you can go

[00:20:15] Hopenesative.com we did not create the Hopenesative we found out from churches what they were doing to turn their culture around and we then got the best of it and are sharing it with other

[00:20:28] churches right now so we take no credit for it we found out what God was doing and we were trying to get that message out there are a lot of resources at church answers.com I don't want to plug

[00:20:39] the company and I'm a resources too much but right now we currently have 377 churches as up to date that her have told us that they have engaged the Hopenesative and it is positively changing their church. There are a lot of others but 377 right now where it's just positively

[00:21:00] changing their church. That's exciting that's really good. Well we're kind of moving into running out of time here so I want to give you a chance to do what we call the two minute drill and that's

[00:21:15] just you're speaking to the hearts of pastors and significant leaders in churches right now and you're going to just share them with them what's important about church revitalization whatever is on your heart. So go for it. I would say these pastors and other church leaders

[00:21:31] that do not look to the left or the right only look up for the answers that you need. Let it begin in your heart in other words you'll have church members who are frustrated you'll have

[00:21:42] peers who are frustrated you look to your heart be an example remember how I went one God I began with the leaders and God I'd want to begin with you. Secondly, not only let it

[00:21:53] begin with you but have great hope the God of all hope God of all possibilities is not done with you He is not done with your church. We are seeing it happen even in the dearest to circumstances

[00:22:06] have hope and then the third thing I would say is just be obedient I don't want to Nike it and say just do it but just be obedient and find out what God does when he rewards that when he

[00:22:19] rewards his obedience to his commands. The great commission is for everyone today and revitalization is taking place in many churches but it's not taking place until we are obedient to his command

[00:22:34] to go and that's where it needs to begin. So those three words to just be the leader be the example. Secondly, have hope, third do it yourself. Yeah I've seen kind of what you're talking

[00:22:48] about happen with some of the churches not that we have worked with them and they've come to this conclusion it's not because we've worked with them they just came up with it by the spirit but working in very leftist leaning communities for example that are extremely post-modern

[00:23:06] in their their worldview and then working in other situations that are rural where there's a bunch of farmers and you know I mean all these things but the key component is the leader decided

[00:23:17] something's got to change and he became part of they became part of this hope initiative without using you know the open initiative. What a great what a great phrase though. Yeah it is.

[00:23:35] So our uga is book is a book forthcoming on the open initiative. It sounds like all the the book is out. It's the tool. It is the primary we have an instruction resource and then the book

[00:23:46] is the primary tool for the participants. His call praying go pray and go okay good. I didn't have that in my list for the show. That's all include that. I appreciate it. Thanks so much Tom for joining us.

[00:24:00] I really appreciate and love what you're doing and keep it up. I mean we're probably around the same age and you know you have a passion to finish well and so do I but you're finishing well on a grand

[00:24:11] scale and I appreciate it really do. Thanks be on my joy to be with you. Okay go bless you. Well like we said there is going to be included in the show notes a lot of resources that

[00:24:23] are connected to Tom Rainer. His podcast he's a prolific podcaster as well as author 40 plus books and counting and then of course there's church answers.com. And the hope initiative I love it

[00:24:38] pray and go the name of the new book. Boy you know may the Lord use this to encourage and strengthen pastors and their leadership teams to go for it and let's become the church that

[00:24:50] obeys the commands of Jesus to go and tell the world and make disciples. Thank you so much Tom. It's great being with you. Thanks well you've been listening to strength for today's pastor

[00:25:01] and we are an outreach of poimin ministries. Poimin ministries is a group of retired pastors who are interested very much in this idea of church revitalization and we are indebted to Tom Rainer for

[00:25:17] joining us today and also all of the resources that God has made available to us to be able to do what we do well. So if we can help you, if we can strengthen you so that your church would

[00:25:29] become vital or revitalized then please reach out to us and the announcer will give you all the details right away and God bless you. Strength for today's pastor is sponsored by Poimin ministries. You can find us at pointminindustries.com that spelled P-O-I-M-E-N

[00:25:48] ministries.com. If something in today's program prompts a question or comment or if you have a topic idea for a future episode just shoot us an email at strongerpastors at gmail.com that's

[00:26:01] strongerpastors at gmail.com. May the Lord bless you as you serve him his pastors and his church.