"How Do I Discuss the Holy Spirit with Non-Christians?"

[00:00:05] Hey and welcome to Basecamp. This is the podcast of All Things All People. It's specifically the ATAP Exploration Society, which is a community of believers who are seeking to go into the deepest and darkest places with the name of Jesus in His good news. And Basecamp

[00:00:24] is our debrief place, as our hub for whom we come back. What is it that we need to talk about? What is it that we need to brief? And so we're going to dive in here in a minute

[00:00:34] talk about outsiders and the Holy Spirit. But I want to invite you to become a part of the Exploration Society by subscribing to the Exploration Society Journal. It's our email magazine that goes out every two weeks full of articles, full of podcasts, information

[00:00:51] about live events. And we actually have a live event coming up October 29th with Dr. Joel Budumolle. He's going to be talking about the spiritual realm and cosmic geography. And he's going to be doing that at Hope House Coffee in Forest City, North Carolina, which is my home

[00:01:05] base. My office is actually in the same building as Hope House Coffee and it's an awesome environment. And Dr. Budumolle is a friend of mine who is going to be coming to talk to us

[00:01:15] about an area specialty of his, which is the spiritual world, which I know that just by the fact that you're listening to this episode, you're probably at least a little interested in that. And so information about tickets are going to be available. But the best way to find

[00:01:30] out about that type of stuff and everything else going on with the ATEP Exploration Society is through that society journal. And so follow the link in the show notes to go subscribe

[00:01:40] to that. And so I don't want to waste any more time, even though this is a very short intro. This is a super interesting episode. At least to me talking about how do we engage with

[00:01:52] non-believers on the topic of the Holy Spirit? And as you're going to find out, it really starts with the Christian evaluating. How do I even begin to understand the Holy Spirit myself

[00:02:03] and God in His Trinitarian Nature? And so yeah, this is going to be a good one. Let me know your thoughts on it. Let me know any other questions you have on this topic or others reach out

[00:02:13] to me through my email, Jeremy at allthingsallpeople.org. Or you can follow me on Instagram at allthings.allpeople. Let's get to it. The voice memo from Felicia started as most of her's do. She has an unmatched energy and her

[00:02:41] messages to me are always reflection of her own deep thinking. Simply put, if I see her name pop up on my phone, I know my day is about to change in some way. She went out to tell me about

[00:02:52] how her women's theology small group was discussing the Holy Spirit in the question of how to explain the Holy Spirit came up. Even more interesting, they began to discuss how they would explain the topic to someone from another religion. One of them said,

[00:03:08] you should ask your friend all things all people. Listening to Felicia laugh at the notion that my name was in fact all things all people, I paused for a moment to appreciate just how effective

[00:03:20] our branding has gotten. There are people in the world who don't know my name but they know ataps. Perfect. I told them I would ask you and see if you have any thoughts Felicia said.

[00:03:32] As a process the question, I began to realize just how much depth there was to formulating an answer. I immediately realized that I have never thought about how I would explain the Holy Spirit

[00:03:42] to someone from another faith in the world view. It seems that much of our explanation of the Holy Spirit is typically wrapped up in a apologetic argument, seeing seeking to offer proof for trinitarianism. Most of our efforts to explain God to non-believers has historically been

[00:03:58] focused on the Father in the Sun. After I responded Felicia that I would get to work on the question, I immediately began to scribble notes in my yellow legal pad that I usually have with me.

[00:04:10] At the top of the page, I unlearn a note to myself. One explanation does not fit all. This is an excerpt from an article that I sent out as part of the Exploration Society journal,

[00:04:26] titled Outiders in the Holy Spirit. I go through that article as I'm going to go through here and talk about different faith groups in their views of not just the Holy Spirit but spirit

[00:04:39] and spiritualism in general and how it would impact this conversation. I start in the article the same way that I want to start in this episode of the podcast and really any incident where

[00:04:52] I'm explaining the Holy Spirit to anybody is I want to start by just talking about what Christians actually believe about the Holy Spirit and we can't start anywhere other than scripture. And I would actually go ahead and start by saying that too many Christians think it's impossible

[00:05:08] to explain the Holy Spirit. Now, as you're going to find I am of the persuasion that we really can't explain everything about God in his genitarian nature and we really can't explain the whole

[00:05:24] of any one of the persons of the Trinity but that's not to say we shouldn't try and we'll start in Acts 5 which might be a weird place to start. But I like to talk about the time that Peter

[00:05:37] rebukes Ananias in Acts 5 after he and his wife were found to be deceptive in their dealings with the church. Peter says to Ananias why has Satan filled your heart to lie

[00:05:50] to the Holy Spirit? Later on at that same passage he says you have not lied to man but to God. Here we see one of the many instances in scripture where the mention of the Spirit of God

[00:06:03] is given the same way of every other mention of God. The Bible is full of illusion to the deity of the Holy Spirit. Just as important though is the Bible's constant witness to the fact that the Spirit has personality and interacts with humanity in an intimate way.

[00:06:20] Ephesians 4 says the Spirit can be grieved by humans and 1 Corinthians 12 teaches that the gifts of the Spirit are given as the Spirit wills. Christians have historically understood the Holy Spirit

[00:06:33] to be the third person of the Trinitarian nature of God and I should stop and say to I sometimes focus on saying it that way as opposed to just saying the Trinity because I find sometimes

[00:06:47] that when Christians say the Trinity they're sort of just nodding towards what ultimately ends up being colloquially as a group of three different gods and that's not it at all. This is one person of God among two others all three wrapped into one essence. It is a topic

[00:07:11] that is often misunderstood even in Christian circles and it's one of the most controversial ideas the world has ever seen. Let's stop and think about that the way Christians formulate their explanation

[00:07:22] of who God is what God is. Is one of the most controversial ideas the world has ever seen and it's often a theological catalyst for pseudo-Christian groups we'll talk about here in a little bit to break

[00:07:35] away from the rest of Christendom and it will usually be the first thing a muscleum will take issue with when discussing faith with a Christian. To the rest of the world, Trinitarianism and the

[00:07:45] Spirit's role in particular often seems to be at best impossible to understand and at worst. A contradiction is never helped though that even inside of Christianity there is little agreement

[00:07:58] over who and what the Spirit is. The end result is that the rest of the world has no idea who or what the Spirit is because most Christians don't know enough about it to explain it to them. Instead

[00:08:09] we offer salvation through Jesus. As if the Spirit plays no role in a person's regeneration if the theology of the early church is to be taken seriously the modern Christian must realize

[00:08:22] that the Holy Spirit plays just as much a role in their salvation and sanctification as the Father and the Son despite the fact that it is much more difficult to conceptualize the role and function

[00:08:35] of the Spirit, a biblical understanding of new mythology which is the study of the Holy Spirit may actually be the key to unlocking a more fruitful evangelism among other faiths and worldviews. This is even more important when one considers how different the conversation about the Spirit

[00:08:51] might be depending on who you're talking to and the preconceived notions various people might have depending on the religious ideas they subscribe to. I remember when I was an undergraduate student at Liberty University. I think part of the reason why I've been vaguely successful in podcasting,

[00:09:13] especially in the early days of what we call the ATAP podcast where all I would do is interview Christians. I was like obsessed with walking around the religion department at Liberty and going into every professor's office, even professors that I didn't know, even professors that I didn't have

[00:09:37] classes with and talking to them, I would literally just walk into their office and talk to them about what I knew was their specialty because I just learned so much more doing that than I did in class

[00:09:50] honestly and there was this professor. His name was Dr. John Morrison and he was like, he was he typically only taught grad students. I never had a class with them but I knew that he was

[00:10:03] at least really familiar with the Theologian named Carl Bart who I'm still fascinated with to this day and I would go into Dr. Morrison's office and he had this office where there was no room on the

[00:10:17] floor because he had stacks of books, waste high all along his floor and I would go in there and I would talk to him about Carl Bart because I knew that he knew a lot about him and and one thing

[00:10:31] that he said that I think changed me and changed the way I view God was that he said that one of the most revolutionary things about Bart was how Trinitarian his theology was and you know Bart's a really

[00:10:43] complex person and I'm not really sure I understand a lot of his theology even to this day. But Dr. Morrison was right, like when Bart talked about God he was talking about him in his Trinitarian nature first and foremost. He wasn't just separating out Jesus for some things

[00:11:05] and the spirit for other things and the father for other things. And honestly I think too many Christians do that and I can understand why and I'm not saying I haven't mastered by any means.

[00:11:17] But I think the reason why Christians drift so much into heresy when it comes to the Trinity and I'm talking like heresy's like modalism which is the idea that God takes different forms in the different persons of the Trinity or heresy's like erianism which is the idea that

[00:11:35] God the Father is actually God and then the spirit and the Son are created beings. Is that the real moment we drift so easily into that is because that's actually how we think about God

[00:11:48] and we often attribute true Godhood to the Father and actually I can prove this to you in a sense because if you really think about the way that you talk about God I bet you that when you say God

[00:12:04] you usually mean the Father and an ultimately while that might be an innocent mistake that a lot of us kind of trip into is that's inherently wrong right our God is Trinitarian. God is one God

[00:12:22] in three persons and we kind of have to start there and I would even invite you like maybe you need to pause this podcast and really think about that like really think about how you talk

[00:12:35] about God and it's not a review it's not like a a a a a charge that we should all be ashamed of but I think it's just an invitation to really begin to reflect on is my personal relationship with God

[00:12:52] functioning in the same fashion as the heresies that we preach against like modalism because before we get to other groups I think we need to really reflect on that The the interesting thing those when we talk about talking to other people's other groups about the Holy Spirit

[00:13:13] is that I've broken it down into these categories who we think we're talking to who we are probably talking to who's at our door who we think isn't here and who thinks we're probably the

[00:13:25] ists and so the first group that I want to talk about is who we think we're talking to and that's atheist and materialists. I'm though same undergraduate years I mentioned before were filled with

[00:13:37] instruction that made it seem as if most non-Christians I would come across were atheists in the same fashion as Richard Dawkins in Christopher Hitchens Sam Harris in that group and these new atheists that we we call them still to this day were militantly anti-theist

[00:13:54] and they approached spirituality with a materialist world view many of them suggested that the whole of reality was purely material. Therefore any truth claims stemming from a spiritual point of view were seen as laughable and antiquated and if you were around during those

[00:14:10] those days like the early 2000s the late 90s or early 2000s you probably remember this group and in the attitude that a Hitchens and still to this day Dawkins while even though his influence is waned considerably that they would and they were vicious

[00:14:28] and they were proud of it too I mean they had no shame in saying that they thought theism and specifically Christianity had been so damaging to the world that the required attitude was one of

[00:14:43] ridicule and one of just a perpetual antagonism and so my first years in ministries were spent looking for these types of atheists it's only to find that they were not as prevalent as I and many

[00:14:56] other Christians thought they would be. They were not as prevalent as some of my professors even said they would be that being said there are still some who suggest that the immaterial and spiritual

[00:15:06] components of Christianity are solely matters of faith and even fairy tale so to people with this point of view the Holy Spirit will certainly be a stumbling block and not only a stumbling

[00:15:16] block but actually a viewpoint in which you'll find very little to no common ground with someone who claims to be a materialist somebody who believes that reality is only physical only material and

[00:15:32] I've found that in conversing with people like this it's important to explain clearly why I have the beliefs that I have and ask questions to find out if they are actually as materialist as they

[00:15:43] suggest. Questions like do you believe in ghosts? Questions like do you believe in the afterlife? Do you believe in any form of spiritual power? Do you believe in fate? Do you believe in the universe? Questions like this can uncover that some atheists are not in fact materialists.

[00:16:01] There's a big difference between atheism and materialism if someone who claims to be an atheist has room in their world view for some form of spirit even if it's not anything that resembles

[00:16:14] the Christian view of spirit then they have room for the Holy Spirit and I would seek to explain that if the God I believe to be real actually exists then it would be logical to believe that

[00:16:27] he is present in some fashion in the spiritual world of ghosts in the spiritual world of a universe that dictates things even something like karma you know an impersonal cosmic law however impersonal it might be it still isn't purely material so the conversation might not

[00:16:47] be geared necessarily at trying to win an atheist over to share my belief instead focusing on showing that the Christian belief in the Holy Spirit is not as foolish as they might believe

[00:16:58] and it's important to remember though that at least in my experience most atheists are not Richard Dawkins in Christopher Hitchin's most atheists are genuinely convinced that there is no God but recent statistics show that most are not as militantly in favor of materialism as many Christians

[00:17:17] believe them to be so this should be encouraging as it leaves room for most conversation that we think there isn't room for so my key advice in discussing the Holy Spirit and really any matters

[00:17:28] of faith with this group that we think we are surrounded by is that we should ask questions to determine if the atheist is as materialist as you think they are if not seek to explain why God

[00:17:41] is present in active in the immaterial world and I would I would encourage you with this statistics show that of the group called the religious nuns n o n e s meaning that there's this demographic especially amongst millennials and jenzy of people who claim no religious affiliation

[00:18:03] in the west because of how persuasive and how impactful people like Hitchins and Dawkins were we we mistakenly believe that most of the religious nuns are materialists and they actually aren't they're actually the slowest growing group within that camp the religious nuns

[00:18:24] the the group of who we are probably talking to is who I call spiritual agnostics and they are actually who we are likely surrounded by because exploring the religious landscape in the 21st century western world has led me to believe that most non believers are

[00:18:40] really spiritual agnostics um this entails a hesitant to make truth claims as to the existence or nature of a god but leaves room for spirituality many religious nuns as they are called maintain belief in an afterlife of some kind in material forces ghosts other tenants that might

[00:18:58] have previously only been found within the ranks of the religious so around my area of North Carolina an entire day can be spent wandering metaphysical and occult shops and places like Asheville filled with crystals filled with charms and other tools to engage with the spiritual world yet

[00:19:16] there are few in those shops that would claim an allegiance to any one particular set of religious dogma so while the notion of engaging those found in this world on the top of Gilles Holy Spirit

[00:19:26] might seem intimidating it is potentially the most fruitful way to approach the subject of the Christian faith and message um because we have to keep in mind that between a Christian and someone within the metaphysical movement there are actually quite a few shared beliefs both

[00:19:43] agree that there is a spiritual component to reality that is just as real as the physical we disagree though on who is over and above that spiritual world um and so these people might

[00:19:55] entertain the use of crystals and charms um and this is not even go that far some of these people might not fit into a new age camp at all but statistics and inexperienced shows that many of the

[00:20:06] people were surrounded by who are slow to claim religion are not quick to discard all of the things found in religion and so the advice for this group is that for the person who readily believes

[00:20:19] in spirituality yet reject Christianity we can seek to show that the Christian world view has more to say about this unseen realm as a Michael Heizer the late Michael Heizer taught us then they

[00:20:32] might realize the Holy Spirit is the hallmark component of that discussion and might actually make more sense to the spiritual agnostic than we might expect simply put if you know somebody who disavowes religion but still kind of nods towards some religious beliefs I actually think the best

[00:20:53] thing you might be able to do is to talk about the Holy Spirit because they probably have negative thoughts about what the church has taught about God the Father or God remember that unfortunately the church has attached that title God to the God of the Old Testament alone

[00:21:15] who many of these people in this camp might reject because of how they perceive the God of the Old Testament. They might even have negative or conflicted thoughts about Jesus but many of them

[00:21:26] because of the church's historic inadequacy and engaging people on the topic of the Holy Spirit many of them might actually be really intrigued to find out that this spiritual world that they are at

[00:21:38] least curious about is governed by God in spiritual form and so I would encourage you don't be scared to discuss the Holy Spirit with people in this camp. So then who's at our door? Well you know

[00:21:54] who's at our door because literally they're probably at your door maybe even today you're going to get a knock on the door from a later day saying or Jehovah's Witness. These folks believe in the Holy Spirit too they just have completely different beliefs than the rest of Christianity.

[00:22:09] Later days saints believe that the three persons of the Trinity are actually three separate entities entirely and that both the Father and Jesus are actually made up of physical bodies.

[00:22:20] They believe the Spirit is not equal with God at all. You can look at the past episode of this podcast which is titled is God actually a human to learn more about the LDS view of God the Father.

[00:22:34] Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Holy Spirit is God's active force they do not believe that the Spirit is a personal entity at all and is instead simply a projection of God's will and action. So these beliefs set these groups apart completely from the rest of Christendom and make conversation

[00:22:50] on the topic of the Holy Spirit extremely difficult and actually I would say it's probably more difficult than it is even with a spiritual diagnostic. So that's why biblical references that show personality in the will of the Spirit should remain front and center in these discussions.

[00:23:06] The ATAP website and I'll link it in the notes for this episode we have a scripture reference guide for you that it's free to download and and it lists a lot of these verses. You shouldn't

[00:23:20] offer them up as proof texts you should offer them up as conversation points because many Latter-day Saints and Jehovah's Witnesses especially at Latter-day Saints. Likely are not familiar with some of these scriptural references for Jehovah's Witnesses because they

[00:23:37] deal with a translation of the Bible, a faulty and very flawed translation the Bible called the new world translation every single one of those references is different in their Bible but it should

[00:23:48] still be mentioned to them because the advice for the key advice for the group that's at your door is to not allow them in the ablation of the scriptures to stand as truth. Great length have been

[00:24:00] taken by these groups especially the Jehovah's Witnesses to reinterpret the meaning of the scriptures regarding the personality and Godhood of the Spirit. So you need to familiarize yourself with what the scriptures say about the Spirit in such a way that you won't be thrown off by their

[00:24:14] claims. So who we think isn't here? Well this is Hindus and Buddhists in other South Asian groups and Asian groups in general. I'd say the group that most Western Christians are least equipped to

[00:24:26] evangelize are those that come from South Asian backgrounds and if you know anything about me, you know this is a group that's near and dear to my heart. Over the last century, groups coming from South Asia and East Asia and Southeast Asia have migrated to the Western world

[00:24:40] and droves and have become important parts of our culture but they're neglected and ignored by the Western Church. And I believe that that's due to the fact most Christians have no idea how to engage in conversation with them on matters of faith. This is understandable though,

[00:24:54] because we don't really know what they believe a lot of times. This can be addressed though, you know, not just through a tap content but just learning the basic beliefs of Buddhists,

[00:25:05] the basic beliefs of Hindus. We have resources on the A-Tab website for this. Go check out our religions database and you can learn the basics of these faiths. Most though who belong to South Asian religious traditions, profess belief in things like karma and reincarnation. And despite

[00:25:22] the fact that even the historic teachings of the Buddha seem non-theistic Buddha really didn't talk about God and as far as we can tell, much of his teaching taught that there was no supreme being,

[00:25:34] most Buddhists do in fact believe in spiritual figures who play a role in bringing about nervana in the lives of those in this present age. So the same common ground found within the the the

[00:25:45] the spiritual agnostics are present in this group as well, along with this though and I think this can't be missed and appeal to the Holy Spirit being the Christians' comfortor should be highlighted. Simply put karma and reincarnation or some sara as it's called in Sanskrit can be an

[00:26:03] intimidating in dismal lens to view the world through. Many Hindus and Buddhists are living lives looking towards a seemingly endless stream of future lives all aimed at one goal to be released

[00:26:15] from the cycle of rebirth they believe all of us are bound to, the belief then that God is present in the spiritual world he's near to us and that one of his primary goals is to comfort us.

[00:26:27] Well this might prove appealing to those who feel as if the spiritual world has little comfort and instead calls for sacrifice in resignation. So the key advice for those who we think aren't

[00:26:40] around us but actually are is to be sure to highlight who exactly the spirit is and what exactly the spirit does God is especially loving and cares deeply for us is very personal and this is not

[00:26:54] found in all religious worldviews. Let's pause for a moment and recognize that the Christian worldview is unique, God is near to us, God loves us, God cares for us, grace is an immensely powerful

[00:27:08] thing and I think we probably need to start most if not all of our days just recognizing that and then lastly the group who thinks we're polytheists which is probably more than just one

[00:27:18] group certainly but the key group that thinks we're polytheists are Muslims. The Quran is full of references to the spirit of the Holy I'm going to butcher the Arabic but it's Ru al Qudus,

[00:27:31] most Muslim interpreters this mention of the Holy Spirit or the spirit of the Holy in the Quran most interpreters have insisted that these are actually referring to the angel Gabriel. Gabriel dictated on behalf of Allah to Muhammad the words of the Quran and so in much of Islamic

[00:27:51] tradition every time the Quran mentions the spirit of the Holy many interpreters have attributed this to Gabriel and so this is due to the Islamic doctrine called Dalhid which is the belief that

[00:28:04] Allah is one this is actually the most central belief in Islam and so the Quran which came through these supposed revelation by Gabriel to Muhammad in the 6th century refers to Christians and Jews often and insists that trinitarianism is flawed it's not uncommon for Muslims to accuse

[00:28:26] Christians of polytheism it should be mentioned though and I think this is hugely interesting that the Quran's charges against trinitarianism include Mary as the third member of the Christian Trinity not the Holy Spirit. The Quran's full of references actually there's one instance in

[00:28:42] the Quran where Allah is interrogating Isa or Jesus and asking Jesus if he claimed to be equal with his mother to God and Jesus in the Quran denies this charge and so this would demonstrate that Muhammad actually misunderstood the Christian teaching on trinitarianism entirely

[00:29:06] so while many Muslims believe that Christian scripture has been corrupted it might be helpful to remember that most Muslims have never actually read the Bible seemingly Muhammad himself only had a

[00:29:17] loose grasp on what the church taught on the nature of God so it might be enlightening to a Muslim if they were to explore the scriptures themselves to see what the Bible actually teaches

[00:29:27] regarding the spirit so my key advice for discussing the Holy Spirit and God's nature in general with the Muslim is this even the suggestion of the existence of the Holy Spirit is hugely offensive

[00:29:39] to a Muslim who believes Allah is one and that the Quran's mentions of the spirit of the Holy are referring to Gabriel despite this and offer to walk through the Christian scriptures with the

[00:29:49] Muslim who is unfamiliar with them may actually prove fruitful and I've talked to many missionaries both overseas in an Arab states or in Southeast Asia where Islam is hugely prevalent this is a really fruitful idea that many Muslims are curious to what the Bible says

[00:30:10] they've never picked it up and so offer to walk through the New Testament with a Muslim friend comparing the Quran's words on the Christian trinity with what the Bible actually says might demonstrate too that the Quran is a flawed document that what it says about the trinity

[00:30:28] is not actually what Christians claim to believe about the trinity so this would of course necessitate you being somewhat familiar once again with what the Bible says about the trinity

[00:30:40] and lastly when when I talk about God when I talk about the trinity when I talk about the Holy Spirit I actually believe that Christians are too quick to explain everything as if everything can be perfectly understood overwhelmingly I find great comfort in the fact

[00:30:58] then that I cannot figure God out I am a I am a questioner I am an asker I am somebody who wants to understand everything and I actually take great comfort that I can't figure God out that I

[00:31:10] can't understand everything no more do I feel this than when I ponder his trinity in nature I fully believe it to be a mystery and one that I may never truly understand even any

[00:31:22] eternity I believe that an appeal to mystery needs to be more often utilized in our evangelism and apologetics as we communicate about our God and what he has done in human history why

[00:31:35] would we ever suggest that I could neatly explain everything about him why do we think that this would make him more appealing to an outsider the God of our evangelism should be one that is as deep

[00:31:48] as the ocean in vast as space he should be a God we never grow tired of exploring because that is who he is as we communicate to people of other faith whether about the Father the Son or the Spirit

[00:32:00] we must tell them of a God who cannot be figured out if our God could be figured out and neatly packaged into an apologetic argument and evangelistic method would he even be worth worshiping

[00:32:13] and so this is by no means an all inclusive approach a neatly packaged argument or explanation of who the Spirit is but just the invitation for Christians to at least try at least try and

[00:32:26] engage not just the topic of the Spirit but the the Trinitarian nature of God in a way that can be understood by outsiders inviting them to become insiders and to join in your journey your exploration

[00:32:40] of this God who is as deep as the ocean and who is as vast as space somebody who could never be truly completely figured out and so I invite you embark upon one I bet you you know somebody

[00:32:54] in one of these groups and like I said I hope one of them knocks on your door today and just ask them you know hey can we sit down and look at the scriptures and actually see what the Bible says

[00:33:03] about God and not just God the Father but the entirety of God and so I invite you to do that today and let me know how it goes respond back Jeremy at all things all people dot org or go to goto

[00:33:17] instagram all things dot all people and let me know how that conversation goes and let me know your own thoughts on you know who exactly is God and let me know too if maybe you might realize that

[00:33:29] maybe even our own devotional aspects of relating to God have been sure aside and that we maybe have dove too far into viewing God as God the Father and Jesus in the Spirit as you know these other

[00:33:44] other lesser gods functionally because I think I think we've gone too far down that path and so thank you for joining in on this conversation this episode of base camp as we go out

[00:33:55] as members of the Exploration Society base camp service as our hub is our conversation point for coming back in in debriefing about what we've learned and so until next time see you. Thank you for listening to this episode of base camp. If you want more health engaging the

[00:34:21] least reach people in the darkest places with the gospel I want to invite you to join the all things all people engage network by joining the engage network you will receive training in worldview and world religions leadership discipleship evangelism and apologetics. You'll also receive

[00:34:39] demographic analysis and outreach strategy that will help you to accurately target your city with the gospel and access to all of ATAP's educational materials. If you want to learn more just go to

[00:34:53] all thingsallpeople.org and click on Engage Network. Thanks for listening I hope you love the show.