"The Best Apologetic for a Changing Culture" with Brad Cooper

[00:00:04] Hey and welcome back to Basecamp. The podcast of all things, all people. This podcast serves as our Basecamp to debrief and discuss our venturing into the dark with the light of Christ in his good news. So glad that you're here. This week's episode is phenomenal one.

[00:00:24] This is a conversation that I recorded with Brad Cooper, one of the lead pastors at New Spring Church in South Carolina. Four team campuses spread out all over the state of South Carolina.

[00:00:36] And the reason why I had Brad on one is that he and I have a bunch of mutual connections with a lot of mutual friends. So we mentioned a couple in this episode. Actually Brad and I go way back and he didn't even know it.

[00:00:48] When I was a youth pastor, my first year as a youth pastor, I Brad spoke at the camp that I brought my students to and he and I had our first conversation in the bathroom of the Hotel Conference Center that the camp was taking place at.

[00:01:04] So this is our second conversation since then. This one was much less awkward and much more fruitful. So I had Brad on because he is one of the lead pastors at one of the biggest churches in the United States.

[00:01:21] And some of you have already lost some of you because Megatriaches sometimes have a bad name. Sometimes they get a bad name undeservedly and sometimes they earn it quite, quite deservedly. And Brad's not one of those guys. New Springs not one of those churches.

[00:01:36] They do a phenomenal job in the state of South Carolina ministering to what people don't really realize is a really varied group of cultures all over that state just like every other state in our country.

[00:01:51] And Brad and the New Springs team have made huge efforts to minister well. And as you're going to hear it in our conversation, we talk about topics like ministering to a multi-generational congregation.

[00:02:06] How do you have boomers in Gen Z in the same room and preach the same gospel without losing one group or without infuriating one group? Well the answer is you're going to find out from Brad is that at times you infuriate both.

[00:02:19] And so we talk about the changing sexual ethic here in Western, in the western world and even within Western Christianity. And how do we address that as ministers of the gospel? We talk about issues of race and multiculturalism that New Spring has faced head on.

[00:02:38] And so this episode is especially fruitful for not just for pastors but for anybody who is looking to be an agent of change in a culture that is dramatically and quickly moving away from being gospel centered.

[00:02:56] And so I do want to tell you, you should send this episode to your pastor because while I was listening back to it, this episode is actually, this interview is actually kind of old Brad and I recorded it in the spring, and I'm putting it out in September.

[00:03:15] And as I was listening back to it, it was mostly new to me because it's been such a long time since we had the conversation. And I was texting the team that I work with at my church and just like sending them quotes

[00:03:27] and being like you guys got to listen to this. And I don't really do that very often, even with the amazing guests and episodes that we've had. This one just meant so much to me because Brad drops some serious wisdom on how to be

[00:03:40] a Christian in this world. And honestly, I think Brad's going to continue to become somebody that the church in the West looks at as a leader, not because he's the loudest, not because he has the largest platform.

[00:03:56] In fact, he shares his platform at New Spring with other lead pastors and a teaching team, which I greatly admire, my church does the same thing. But because he patiently addresses the topics that so many other Christian leaders shoot

[00:04:12] from the hip on and you're going to really benefit from this conversation and I'm excited for you to hear it. I also want to invite you if you don't already get the Exploration Society Journal, the Exploration Society is essentially the mission's organization within all things all

[00:04:32] people, which is seeking to equip Christians to engage the darkest and most difficult places and groups of people with the gospel. And so the best way to be a part of that movement is the Exploration Society Journal.

[00:04:48] It goes out every other week on Wednesdays and it's going to be delivered into your email in box. We do our best to make it like the Christian National Geographic stories from the mission field, stories from engaging people from other worldviews and religions, articles that address

[00:05:11] difficult questions as well as featuring a tap content. And so make sure to sign up for that. There's a link in the show notes for that. And the one thing that we're going to be featuring quite a bit in the next few weeks is

[00:05:26] on October 29th here in my hometown of Forest City, North Carolina, not far from Brad's neck of the woods in the upstate of South Carolina. So if you're a new spring person, I would love to see you in Forest City, North Carolina

[00:05:42] on October 29th for our Exploration Society fall lecture, which is with Dr. Joel Moodamole. Joel is the director of Research in Theology for Proverbs 31. He's a brilliant scholar, brilliant theologian, and he's going to come and speak at our fall lecture on the spiritual realm and cosmic geography.

[00:06:04] And after he's done, he and I are going to have a conversation with Q&A from the attendees. And so there's a link to purchase tickets tickets only $10. We want to keep them cheap because we want people there.

[00:06:18] But they're going fast and we only have 100 tickets because it's that Hophouse coffee, which is an amazing coffee shop in Forest City, North Carolina. And it's limited on space. And so I'd love for you to be there.

[00:06:29] And like I said, if you are listening to this because Brad's your pastor or you are a new spring person or you love Brad, it's an all-like lid with in driving distance. And so come hang out with us that night and go get your tickets now.

[00:06:42] But without further ado, I can't wait for you to hear this. And you're going to see why I said that you need to send this to your pastor because this is

[00:06:49] going to be a great encouragement to anybody whose life is a raptor on the idea that I'm a heralder of the gospel, whether that's a pastor, a Sunday school leader, a small group leader, whatever you are, a missionary. This is going to minister to you.

[00:07:05] And so I need to cut to the chase because the whole reason that you're listening to this episode is to hear this with Brad Cooper. Let's do it. Well, awesome. One, this episode of Basecamp, we're honored and privileged to have the lead pastor

[00:07:27] of culture and direction at New Spring, which if you're not from my area in Brad's area, a new spring for the last 10, 15 years has been one of the largest churches in the United States, one of the fastest growing, certainly, and has really changed the face of my region,

[00:07:42] which is here in the southeast of the Carolina as in specifically South Carolina where since it's beginning, New Spring has had a heart to reach everybody in the state of South Carolina with the gospel.

[00:07:53] And so today's guest is Brad Cooper, which Brad, you and I just pre-show, we're talking about we have it seems like an endless list of connections and mutual friends, but this is an honor

[00:08:02] to have you on for our first real conversation other than like I mentioned, a brief conversation in a bathroom at a youth camp about 12 years ago. Yeah, man. I'm honored to be here, Jeremy. Thank you and it is pretty cool.

[00:08:15] God's been so kind and there are some great folks in the Carolina as it loves Jesus, and it seems like that you cut a bouncing to folks that know everybody. So thanks for what you do,

[00:08:24] too, man. I know it's a laboral love and you do a fantastic job. So I was honored to be invited to come and add value for this podcast. Well, I really appreciate that. You know, I mentioned

[00:08:35] pre-show and we'll talk just briefly about your background and history of how you've gotten here, you know, but for those who are listening, who aren't familiar and reasonably so I mean, I think for me and for Brad, mega churches, for pastors, for people who work in church ministry.

[00:08:51] A lot of times big churches, mega churches, whatever you want to call it, really do take up quite a bit of the conversation of like trend centers and all that. I know not a lot of people get wrapped

[00:09:00] up in that, but I just want to vouch for you for somebody who's not familiar with you. I was sitting and I think it was actually at Greg Wells's wedding who's a mutual friend of ours.

[00:09:12] He's one of the worship leaders at New Spring and this is Long Before Greg worked with you at New Spring and I remember sitting around talking with all of my friends who I'd gone through

[00:09:22] college and can't ministry with and we were all getting ready to take youth past your jobs. And I can remember multiple guys who were from the Clemson Anderson area who we're talking about you

[00:09:35] and talking about fused, which is a ministry that you used to lead in the context of of New Spring, which is their youth group and talking about like how you were the best they'd seen.

[00:09:47] And I know that that's probably not something that you take great pride in hearing or whatnot. But I remember that in my career in youth ministry, which was seven years, the first my first seven years in vocational ministry,

[00:09:59] the question was always kind of well how does a new Spring do it? I was always interested in what you were doing, what your team was doing. So so you've always been a good trend center and

[00:10:08] that's why I wanted to have you on this show because I wanted to just pick your brain and your heart about pastoring and whatnot. But before we do that I have to ask because

[00:10:16] I think for a lot of people when they see you now, they see you in the teaching team, people like Clayton King is a mutual friend of ours, Dan Lianne, Meredith Knox and yourself

[00:10:26] and then a whole just gosh army of amazing Bible teachers and worship leaders at New Spring. A lot of people would be surprised to find out you kind of a small-time boy from close to where I'm

[00:10:35] at Henderson County, North Carolina. How did you get from attending Furman on a baseball scholarship and thinking you were going to go home and take over the family construction business

[00:10:47] to be in one of the lead pastors of like one of the largest and fastest growing churches in the United States? Man, I don't know that there's a simple answer other than sovereignty, God's kindness

[00:10:58] and you know I look back over that section of your life and I'm 40 this year and I just say man God gave me great parents. A dad who was a deacon and a mom who was a Sunday school teacher

[00:11:11] if you grew up in the Baptist context my father was a RA leader which is like the Baptist Boy Scouts and I was in church all the time and a lot of folks you know have a different kind of church

[00:11:22] background experience and I look back over my and I was really fortunate. I had great leaders, great youth leaders, great small group leaders went to college to play ball and my FCA

[00:11:33] chaplain was the guy who actually passed through me in college and got me to consider a ministry career and so instead of pursuing the family business in law school and that whole deal my

[00:11:46] WNH had to be a chaplain and got to come to South Carolina worked for the fellowship of Christian athletes for Coach Tobi Bowden and the Clemson Tigers and care in a whole lot about athletes

[00:11:58] walking with the Lord got me into serving at the local church that I was attending and that was how I got to Newsprin church so that was kind of my entry into the world of ministry full time.

[00:12:09] Yeah well that's that's incredible and Tommy Bowden for people who don't know. I mean he he was he had granted quite a testimony too. I mean the whole the whole Bowden family I think really was

[00:12:23] really involved in SCI think I just remember that name those names are constantly popping up in that circle. That's right his dad was all about family and faith be the part of his whole approach

[00:12:35] to raising young men and Coach Tobi had that in his DNA and if you talk to Coach Davos Winnie he'll tell you that's where he got it from and so I was I was around the football team when Coach

[00:12:49] Winnie got hired into that role and you know had the privilege of being his boys youth pastor at the local church and matter of fact this weekend attending his middle sons of wedding so

[00:13:02] it's just been a really cool journey of just I've gotten the privilege to grow with our church and grow in my oversight pastorally and don't take any of it for granted and just try to

[00:13:11] be faithful in the midst of whatever's in front of him and so I want to be a bit farmer be faithful with what's in the hand and you've got that's how I've gotten to where I am. Any have awesome.

[00:13:23] Yeah well that's incredible and you know my I'm not from here but I'm a tar heal through morning the NCAA tournament but I love Davos Winnie and I think every believer should look

[00:13:35] look at what Davos done at Clemson as a great hallmark for being able to have a witness and in difficult places. So somebody who's listening especially if they are familiar with you they

[00:13:48] they might be confused like a lot of what A tap does is engaging with world religions and sort of you know our big thing is into the dark and so some people might be sort of like thrown

[00:13:59] off because they probably don't hear you as far as I know talk about world religions and things like that that much I know new springs I mean as big as you guys are you're you're all over everywhere

[00:14:08] especially in South Carolina but the reason I wanted to have you on is I've seen in you throughout the course of time that I've already referenced like watching you from afar but then just also in the last few years really helping to lead new spring in a direction

[00:14:23] of really continuing with that mission of reaching the entire state of South Carolina when you do that though you're going to come up against like everything and you're going to come up with against

[00:14:32] different world views you're going to come up against changing cultures you're going to come up against multiple generations and so I wanted to talk to you and just hear your heart on pastoring but specifically to the side of pastoring that I don't think enough lay people or even

[00:14:47] aware of which is really the idea that like to be a shepherd there is like some some warrior I mindset that we all have to have that there is like man when you stand up to speak to preach

[00:14:58] at new spring I don't care where you're at but especially a large enough gathering like new you might be talking to thousands of people over the course of the simultaneous recording

[00:15:07] you're going to be talking to Gen Z, Gen X, Millennials, Boomers you're going to be talking to people from various different ethnic backgrounds and nowadays you might even be talking to people who

[00:15:18] are confused about sexuality and things like that and you as the person on stage or the person in the counseling office or the person who's leading even a business meeting have to

[00:15:30] have a heart to reach all of those people and engaging all those people as big as new spring in is and is wide of experiences you've had going through youth ministry now to being on the lead team

[00:15:41] what has that been experience been like I'd imagine it has to sometimes be disorienting where you're thinking through like oh man we might have some people from this background in the room and the completely opposite background in the same room hearing the same message and I have to

[00:15:55] pastor both of them how is that experience been for you well I think it's a you're really right man I think more because of the internet there's no such thing any longer let me go a record no such

[00:16:05] thing is the Bible built anymore I think you can think out loud that okay I live in a context where everybody knows and you can assume everybody knows Christianity and kind of the classic pillars of

[00:16:18] Christian faith and doctrine and just as somebody who has done all of my ministry context has been in the Carolinas I want to say that's not the case the the presumptions or the Christian presuppositions

[00:16:32] are gone and if you've got any kind of general Bible knowledge you you're probably ahead of the curve and so you know when you're thinking about preaching or you think about ministry you know

[00:16:44] you see this in scripture of course you get Paul right in Athens and that's like one version of Paul and then you get Paul right in a letter to the Corinthian church and that's a whole

[00:16:53] other version of Paul and I think sometimes you can in your head think well every Sunday I'm standing up and I'm talking to either the Corinthian church so I need to be this way about my

[00:17:02] clarity or I'm talking to the area of the Gis and Athens and I just want to say that you you need to know that you got everything everything in front of you all the time and so you've almost got

[00:17:13] to qualify everything you're saying because of all the different worldviews and a phrase that I've been using a lot lately just internally and I actually don't think it's made it out on the platform

[00:17:23] you'll probably hear it more in the next year is I think we live in a Christianized context but I don't think we live in a Christian context and so while we have some habits and things

[00:17:33] that we do because we're in a Christianized America i.e. Christmas break that's Christianized in that kind of an idea but most most people even even a lot of people who think their Christians

[00:17:46] they are just Christianized and I think that's helpful for me and for me my sermons and for me my points and we talk about that a lot because we teach in team where big believers in team ministry

[00:17:57] here at the spring and that allows us to kind of speak with one voice while using a diversity of voices to kind of come at it from a lot of different angles through the course of our ministry time so

[00:18:06] that's probably the most helpful right now yeah thought I had about pastoring especially gently and and those that are coming up because they didn't grow up with the formation of Sunday school like I did because of the seeker movement a lot of people just kind of were

[00:18:23] they were really getting in spaces where they were here in the gospel they're here in the Billy Graham kind of simple gospel cross talk but they don't have the formation they've been found but not been formed I think that's the biggest gap on seeing right now in

[00:18:36] pastoral work in general is there's a lot of people that have been found but they've not been formed and so what does it look like to go through the process of forming as I shepherd and think

[00:18:47] yeah along those lines so I don't know if that gives you any handles you want to grab onto it roll with that's that's like my brain and now working right now well and and I I don't think

[00:18:57] most people understand even too like the fact that you've thought through all of that you know here's a reality like unfortunately most Christians and I guess fortunately because it's our jobs to think through this kind of stuff but but there is like this this

[00:19:11] this truth that you're saying and that we live in this Christianized part of the world now I've said like a hundred times which is in my preaching and teaching you know we still live

[00:19:22] and probably the easiest time in place in the history of the world to be a Christian and that's a great thing but man it's done it's done bad things to us and you know you and I both pass during this context where everybody you said everybody thinks

[00:19:37] hey I'm Christian because I go to church or my dad's a decant or I grew up in R.A.'s but they have this lack of formation that you mentioned and you know you came up through

[00:19:49] through fuse you came up through student ministry and you were on really the front end of now what we like you mentioned Gen Z is how we typically classify it um how has it been formulating a message

[00:20:03] of spiritual formation and discipleship to this generation which has come out of this secret sensitive movement they were born out of it us millennials we were we were grown up in

[00:20:12] it as well but they're really the first ones who were teenagers in early 20s and really I've seen as I'm sure you probably have there's a great spiritual hunger amongst Gen Z but I feel like

[00:20:22] sometimes the church is almost ill equipped to really help them along the way and to discipleship how how have you and how have you been tackling that? Well I'm not going to act back we've got it all figured out because we don't we're always asking hard questions there

[00:20:35] but I think you're right to identify that there was a different way of doing church in the late boomer Gen X mindset then there is now and I think one of the pieces that I have seen a lot

[00:20:49] is whether you're looking at stats globally or you're looking at my context right in front of me is that Gen Z because of the disruption in culture over the last three years COVID over the last 15

[00:21:02] years just a lot of spin and what's real and what's not real there is a desire and a hunger for something that has staying power regardless of what's happening and swirling in the culture

[00:21:15] and so it's one of the reasons you see people running to things like high church and liturgy and you know the Anglican denomination for instance and so for us we've reckoned with the fact

[00:21:27] that there's a lot of young people that won't to see things that can stand the test to time to can stand the test of changing of presidency, a changing of economic structure, a changing

[00:21:39] whatever the huge swirl is and so things that maybe historically even when I was growing up would have been considered old traditions they're making a comeback because if you're explaining the why behind their traditions there's a desire and a hunger for show me the timeless practices

[00:21:58] and why these things made it through you know the enlightenment or this regime overthrow or this up swing and denominational change or a methodology change and so things like just the simplicity of taking communion where classically in a bad dislike is what I'll call new spring we might

[00:22:20] take communion once every quarter a couple times a year and now one of the things we do every single Sunday as we put communion in front of the people because one it shows folks that are watching

[00:22:32] online which we're not at war with that hey we're doing something in this room as a gathered called out group that you're not necessarily getting to do sitting on your couch or listening to the podcast because we're gathering of believers but we're also able to show something has

[00:22:45] been transcended that is lasted the test of time and so that would be one example there's a hunger for the transcended timeless practices of the fate they kind of are they're going again they can they can even get beyond denominations that are really the

[00:23:03] and the medical things that we all agree upon so that would be an example right now I see more active that's happening that when I'm talking to 20 year olds or young married couples

[00:23:13] that maybe you grew up in church or maybe they've been saved but not really been formed that these practices spiritual disciplines whether corporate or personal have a real buoyancy and balanced for the fate of a follow-up Jesus so that's the kind of stuff that I'm talking

[00:23:31] about in terms of formation right now yeah that's amazing and I think you're I think you're 100 percent right I've always thought it's funny how hard we work to make ourselves contemporary when

[00:23:42] our faith is ancient and it's like kind of that that's like one of the best things it has going for it and you you you you communicated it so beautifully one thing that I've I've heard recently

[00:23:54] and you know the church I pastor is no no not close in size to new spring close in style though we have lights we have very contemporary music we have a full band I've been to new springs

[00:24:06] many of new springs campuses and I've seen the same thing and I'm sure you've heard like I have people saying that younger people Gen Z are rejecting the lights in the fog and the in the show

[00:24:21] in favor of something that they deem more genuine have you guys found that to be true is this generation coming up are they seeing lights and you know the things that come with it as lacking

[00:24:34] you know a genuine motivation is there a way to do those two things in a healthy tension with each other in your opinion that's a great question I think the easy answer is to set

[00:24:45] lights in fog and high production over and against genuine authenticity yeah and you can make the straw man very quickly and win so I'll just say that works if you want to but I don't necessarily

[00:24:57] think that those two things are antithetical and I don't think you've got to put them in a false dichotomy to push them against one another but rather there's a way to be genuine and bring back

[00:25:08] authentic worship in amongst something that is actually framing it for our day we're not at war with technique technology tactics those things are beautiful when they're used with the right heart and motive but I think I think Gen Z is naturally skeptical naturally cynical and naturally

[00:25:25] jaded and rightfully so they've got zealions of reasons to be skeptical cynical and jaded for that's their default setting and if you don't acknowledge that and then you throw smoke and fog and lights on it then you're just dogpiled on their potential for being skeptical cynical and

[00:25:41] jaded right where you instead use lights to amplify the right thing the glory of God use use I'm ag in cameras to create opportunities for folks to consume it that are sitting 100 feet back

[00:25:55] I mean there's just some things you're just not going to be able to do with excellence in a way that folks can consume it if you don't use the technology but there is a flippancy maybe

[00:26:06] perhaps it was a little bit just you know too polished you know 10 years ago there maybe folks weren't thinking about making bigger brighter and louder and that was the win bigger brighter and louder is not the win amplifying your genuineness of motive and spirit and the timeless truth

[00:26:24] in the gospel that's the win put it on the internet using podcasts and technology to make it go further that's the win and I think they're they've got a good sniffer and they'll see that if they're looking for it

[00:26:36] so yeah yeah but sure exactly right there's no revival spirit in the earth and you know we're recording this podcast around the back of some pretty cool revival moments in our country

[00:26:46] and it would seem that there's a revival spirit that says give me an acoustic guitar and just give me authentic prayer but I don't think you gotta put those things in in dichotomy necessarily

[00:26:58] yeah yeah I agree I think it is so interesting to me and I've always kind of wondered what the the large church mindset because it would be it'd be tough for you guys to you know walk away from

[00:27:11] that style because there's so it's so much a part of what you guys do and who you are and I've always thought there's no reason for this to you know not be genuine I can be I can be false in misleading

[00:27:23] with an acoustic guitar and fluorescent lights just as easy as I can be with an LED screen and so yeah I've always kind of felt the same way I think one thing that new spring has

[00:27:34] going for it and then actually my my church is as well we for quite a few years we've we've utilized the teaching team method we've we've we've contended in fault for a very long time

[00:27:46] even at a small church I mean we have like 300 people you know what I mean and I've always thought when I see pastors fall and we know that we know that so much a part of what the world thinks

[00:27:57] of us has largely been decided because of these moral failings of of pastors and whatnot when I've seen this I've always thought man I'm glad that I only preach every third week

[00:28:06] or but even that Brad like I still struggle with ego and I preach every third week I serve with two other lead pastors do you feel like the teaching team or the lead team that you guys

[00:28:17] you know helped it pioneer in new spring or just really any shared leadership has helped as a witness to the community as a whole that hey it's not just about one guy has that helped you guys at all and your witness and your testimony to your community and

[00:28:32] South Carolina. Well time will tell I think I would like to tell you that that's our intent and so the motive behind it is to try to love will through transitions whether positive or

[00:28:46] negative it does ever happen so you know a man serves faithfully for 30 years and then retirees you know praise God if they're all by themselves then that's going to always be

[00:28:59] reset in a really hard way for a church versus if there is a little bit of a diversity of voices of plurality of leaders then you can celebrate well when the transition happens but it

[00:29:11] doesn't feel like you're catching quite as much of a reset now there are some difficulties two multiple voices it's a lot harder to snap people into you know direction and vision

[00:29:22] and here's what we're doing it's a lot harder to lean on you know social media even or personality gives cares about it gifts even but I think in our moment in history at least our effort is

[00:29:34] that we're guarding the hearts of as Luther said the idle factories of all of us from creating these little mini celebrity Christian weird idols that really do hurt when people either move on or fall so you know we also want to help people understand that there's only one

[00:29:52] hero capital H hero in this thing and his name is Jesus Christ and the Bible does a fantastic job of distributing every human other than Christ and so we want to make sure we're doing our best

[00:30:05] to hold up the name of Jesus as well that's why we've done what we've done you know really mean 15 years ago Jeremy this idea of multi site wasn't even a thing you know so we've got this

[00:30:17] multi site reality and with that comes the potential of one individual to really help or really hurt and so we just want to try to spread that load don't feel like it's good for any salt

[00:30:31] to have to carry over the course of time in the long run yeah yeah well and you know and you guys having credible leadership obviously you're part of that but as I mentioned so many other

[00:30:42] names and you guys have a great crew there one thing that I saw you guys handle pretty well in my opinion and I think a lot of people as we talk about the more touchy subjects that the

[00:30:52] that the church is having to learn unfortunately I feel like the man in any sense well Western even jokers were always like five years behind sometimes and how we learn to deal with things

[00:31:04] it's sometimes we learn from necessity and really the last few years on issues as far as like diversity and at like conversations about multicultural issues things like that and then as well as you know a rising swell of LGBTQ issues as I mentioned earlier the pastor

[00:31:23] you know we are at the center of that like we are like you've already mentioned it's not we're not bearing the entire burden for our church but we are in a sense expected to help them

[00:31:36] figure this kind of stuff out and I remember seeing mutual friend of ours who works at new spring Charlie Batrago who we were mentioning pre-show is a wonderful man extremely gifted worship leader preacher teacher a songwriter and he's he's really pioneered this Spanish night of worship that

[00:31:56] new spring does it seems like statewide has that been something you know that has become part of the heartbeat of new spring is if hey I've owned reached this entire state there's more than just

[00:32:05] white evangelicals in this state or or people who you know look like me and you Brad like what was the thought process there and deciding to make this huge church movement at least a little bit

[00:32:17] more multicultural yeah well if you want the real story the real real the backstory on that in my heart personally was I came to new spring church as a white kid hello not surprised it but it

[00:32:31] was actually a bunch of African-American football players that brought me to new spring this was the place that they felt comfortable and so I was trying to I was hired as a chaplain to try to

[00:32:44] pastor them and I was just trying to get them into church and where were you excited to go guys they were excited to go to new spring so that was my introduction is I got invited by minority

[00:32:55] dudes that I was in the Cypalship relationship with to come to new spring that was 18 years ago and one of our values is a church in terms of when we're looking at what we hope to impart

[00:33:09] to our kids and our grandkids one of the five values for our church that we want to see we see in scripture is that they would pursue uncommon unity and believe that's a biblical construct that's not a not a CRT construct that's not an American 2021 2021 2022 etc.

[00:33:28] Constra that's the reality of opening up our Bible and seeing Jews and Greeks and that's the reality of looking forward through John's revelation of the new heavens and new earth and he says in John 799 and 599 actually that I saw every language tribe tongue and that they're standing

[00:33:48] before the throne worshiping so there's a unity their worshiping Jesus the covered in white but there's a diversity I'm hearing different languages and so if that's their trajectory that we're on there should be something in the reborn heart of Christians to pursue folks that

[00:34:03] speak look at different than me and so that's really what the seed of this has come from and we want to be on that trend line now we don't want to be a caltao into culture

[00:34:16] what we want to do is we're bringing the culture of heaven and you got to work hard in a cultural moment narrative like we've been in over the last couple years but it's worth it

[00:34:25] to help folks that we're going to be English is going to be the minority language in eternity yeah and Charlie is of course a Spanish speaker of Venezuela and by birth and in our context

[00:34:40] in South Carolina we have a massive Spanish speaking population so we just want to lean into that when we can to pursue that demographic with the the good news of Jesus and Charlie self does do

[00:34:51] them and so of course we also want to pursue relationships with with the African American community in South Carolina I feel like that's a massive opportunity we have in our state and we feel like that when we put on display on Sunday morning a multi-ethnic multicultural church

[00:35:10] that we are actually showing a little glimpse of the new heaven and new earth and that a polygenic speaks to everybody that what you guys have here is different than what I feel in

[00:35:21] my school what I feel in my timeline what I feel in political ideology this is the real deal and it's apologetic to the community we live in and so we desire to be a multi-ethnic multicultural

[00:35:33] church, multi-generational church because that's a natural apologetic to a world that's not any of those things so yeah that's where the feet of that comes from and it's grown and we don't get it

[00:35:42] perfect but man we sweat it we work really hard and we're intentional about it as best we came when I think you guys are doing a great job I see it I see Charlie promoting it and you mentioned

[00:35:56] honestly I hope it takes people to surprise that the idea that that would be an apologetic because what's funny is you mentioned you don't want to count out to the culture I'm sure

[00:36:05] it's been a struggle to disciple your your staff your people to say hey we aren't like sometimes we're we are gonna act it's gonna seem like we're acquiescing but really we're just being obedient

[00:36:16] and there's do you ever feel like you're constantly riding a line as a leader between like these two opposites of the spectrum where you say the culture wants us to bow down and do this

[00:36:26] but then you know our hardcore more you know we call it conservative you will branch of Christianity is saying no we're not gonna do any of that and then here you are as a leader saying no we're gonna try our best to reach our our culture and sometimes

[00:36:41] sometimes we're not gonna make either camp happy has that been difficult and stressful and burden some for your leadership to try and navigate those waters absolutely and I think it's important we're considering right but you know what's really cool is that when you look at the

[00:36:57] amago day on the lost person there's something in culture right now that says we should celebrate people that aren't like me and there's a natural thing is going on the culture so you

[00:37:10] open up Disney or your Amazon and depending on what month it is this can be right there at the you know what you want okay so there's something in a person that desires to celebrate and

[00:37:20] lift that up so the way I describe that is there's a desire for the kingdom with no knowledge of a king and so they want the kingdom they don't want the king so my job is to take and subvert that

[00:37:35] and say okay I'll give you an example that there's a celebration of this thing in America called Juneteenth all right well we celebrate Juneteenth we celebrate Memorial Day we celebrate Thanksgiving we celebrate Fourth of July those are four American holidays contextually they don't celebrate those

[00:37:52] in any other country but as I'm trying to both exagy culture and exagy scripture so in each one of those our staff is gonna figure out a way here's Memorial Day you're gonna see it all over social media

[00:38:05] every church no greater love is any man than this that he lays down his life for his friend well that's fantastic the great way to talk about Jesus my job is a pastor though it's to not

[00:38:15] get people to finish by throwing their crowns at the red-white and blue flag rather see the sacrifice of many men and women throughout history in America they lay down their life and let that point

[00:38:26] to a higher throne the king of kings in the same way Juneteenth is another beautiful opportunity for us to do the same there was freedom and there was freedom that was purchased and bought

[00:38:37] and established and the good news of freedom got to Galveston Texas and so now just like God's heart everyone who's been created the image of God has been given dignity in our nation and it took

[00:38:51] years for that to happen but it did happen so we can take Juneteenth and celebrate that not because I'm celebrating an ideology and culture but it was in that ideology to open a door to a higher culture

[00:39:02] so I'll take the best suggestion I've got for pastors out there that are trying to crawl straightness is take the weekends that are back to back and I saw Dr. Piper do this for years

[00:39:14] and celebrate both the sanctity of life which is a should be a kingdom value for a Christ follower because of the doctrine of a logo day right that's easy it's typically a conservative

[00:39:25] leaning value in American politics and put it right up against Dr. King weekend the very next weekend celebrating the dignity of everyone creating the image of God it's the same doctrine expressed in two different ways to classically two different ends of the political spectrum

[00:39:42] and what we're telling folks when we highlight both of them is we're not about writer left we're about a vertical kingdom that we can bring from heaven to earth and we can show it as an apologetic

[00:39:54] in the way we do culture and it doesn't let somebody do all I'm a Republican Christian or somebody say I'm a won't justice warrior but rather no I'm an inanimate God ambassador here

[00:40:08] and I can subvert any side of this thing and yeah Dr. Piper Evans is the good standard of this if you want to look to somebody who does this for well pastor Evans has been doing it fantastically

[00:40:19] a clist Bible from a long time yeah he's the man and that's there's there's so much wisdom and what you just said but honestly I think the number one question

[00:40:30] and I think I would I think this is what I would ask even if we weren't sitting in front of computers is it what what was the turning point for you were you stopped worrying about what man thinks of you

[00:40:42] you know because like what you just said and I know you're gonna say well I still struggle with that and obviously we all do but like what you just said is one of those things where you lay down at night

[00:40:54] some nights and you go oh everybody's gonna be mad just I mean I'm gonna make everybody mad you know like and it what was the turning point for you and there's probably more than one but like

[00:41:03] where you just decided hey I'm gonna make somebody mad with this decision or my staff's gonna be I'm gonna have to disable some of my staff through this decision I'm gonna have to disable all my staff

[00:41:14] through this decision or and you just said I'm gonna do it you know what was the turning point in saying I'm gonna leave this way because I feel like this is the most God honoring way to do it

[00:41:22] and I don't care what man thinks and I really believe that it's because it's not my opinion we have a phrase around here that we want the word to do the work so if you're going to argue

[00:41:38] you're going to argue with an open Bible and I think that there is you know beautiful doctrine in the Diddica talking about the the reason the Christians reject abortion in the second century this is not an American deal this is not a Republican deal alright that same doctrine

[00:41:59] or or listening into several of the patriarchy the patriarchy the church fathers that I mean are going in the the cat daddy's the cap edition fathers they're leaning in on slavery in the

[00:42:10] third and fourth century I mean they're coming as hard as you can come in a Roman context and preaching good news and so the word does the work so I'm not arguing this because on this kind

[00:42:23] of a person or that kind of a person or this is my opinion I'm lifting it because I think the word of God requires it of a of a of a declare and a harrel that's what I think I don't think this is

[00:42:34] if it was my opinion man I would be so much louder about some other stuff because I've got opinions all day long and care greatly about them this is not a this is not a Brad Cooper opinion I believe

[00:42:46] this is a biblical conviction that every minister's got a lift and I just think it's our time to be courageous with it so that's really the way I justify it as I can go home and go to bed at night

[00:42:57] because I may rest with the Holy Spirit on on that one I think it's in the way yeah I love it and I would even so go so far as to say too for those in Christian ministry listening

[00:43:09] I personally Brad think that also the idea that you're not bearing the burden by yourself as the lead as the one pastor of a church I do think that helps at least a little bit that you can

[00:43:20] look at those co-laborers you know the fact that you're not saying hey at least at least they're not just gonna hate me right you know it's like um and not that we are worried about opinions

[00:43:30] of man but let's be honest it's easier when we can look at a brother or sister and say hey having you here with me and so I think you know even even for for those of us who are serving

[00:43:38] outside of the context of a mega church is trying to develop leaders that can help you make those tough decisions you know and and therefore make your ministry's more fruitful and better

[00:43:49] yeah I think like I said I think you guys have done a great job at exemplifying that one of the greatest issues right now on on at least especially a question that I think

[00:44:00] everybody in our part of the world is having to answer is you know what is the gospel to say about this changing sexual ethic issues within the LGBTQ movement we have every time

[00:44:11] we turn on the news right now there's questions of trans rights and things like that how how do you think you mentioned earlier I loved how you called the the effort that a church goes to to exemplify what Heaven's gonna look like whether that's multicultural in that could

[00:44:32] be expressing everything they do that's an apologetic and and I know that you know the apologetic is changed we can't just go out and make logical arguments anymore as important as this are

[00:44:42] really jensee and this changing world around us is it's questioning the church and why we think our morality is the only morality why we think the Bible or you know the the one way to crisis

[00:44:55] the one way of salvation how do you think a pastor a Christian should be engaging in this this conversation now not just around the sexual ethic but the idea that it sometimes it feels like

[00:45:09] the the ground is crumbling around us that there is no truth to hold on to anymore and you know you mentioned the enlightened men earlier that I mean this has been going on for a long time before

[00:45:18] now but I think it's really getting to everybody's doorstep right now um that hey I got to I got my my kids are having questions about this now so a friend of theirs at school is confused

[00:45:29] on their sexuality and my kid wants me to help them understand it so as a pastor how are you leading your people through these types of questions and conversations well I think it is the question

[00:45:38] you know and this is the one there's a zillion questions that get to this one about to say so it could come up anyway and I'm a dad too you know I've got a nine year old uh I've got a first

[00:45:49] creator as well and they're gonna a young man in the house you know um in public school uh now my wife is the pTO president and we've got a lot of uh genius followers at the school

[00:46:00] and we're up and we're always one semester away from being doing something else but that's where they are here's the conversation right um where does truth come from and I think one of the things that

[00:46:12] Paul writes to Timothy and he speaks very candidly is that the church is the pillar and buttress of the truth and so if the church does not articulate the truth will not speak the truth

[00:46:23] then the culture won't be able to see it and it'll you know there's no pillar there's no buttress so where it's our job in kindness to hold the truth up and I think what we see in the

[00:46:32] culture is a completely different approach to truth and you guys all know this you see it too and it's the postmodern post secular humanism reality, more therapeutic, deism that truth is

[00:46:45] somehow go down in here deep deep in here and find it and bring it out and then now live your truth this is the truth versus I was born into a world with a truth external

[00:46:58] absolute and fixed and that that truth's gonna go on when I stop existing in this kind of a construct and I'm born in submission to realities that are outside of me those are the two world views

[00:47:12] and the Bible is the one that talks about the external absolute capital T truth this is the conversation around scripture this is why a trajectory hermeneutic is so dangerous but you I think if I'm

[00:47:24] talking about sexuality in general right now learn a little bit from your late millenials in Gen Z folks I actually think that the boomers and gen Xers are scared here more than most generally speaking sorry of that offense but they're so worried to say clearly what the Bible

[00:47:41] states clearly and they try to do more gradient and be more nuanced and win some nothing wrong with new Austin with some but there is some things the Bible is black and white about and I think the

[00:47:55] Christian's sexual ethic is one of those and as a matter of fact in the first 300 years pre-chissantum the church won the Mediterranean because the Mediterranean was a sexually weary Roman pagan world and I think that can describe our context right now as good as anything sexually weary

[00:48:19] postmodernic in the world and there is a sexual ethic that we have to offer in Christianity that is not boring I mean the stats on this are out the ears Christians who in marriage

[00:48:37] have more sex are happier in the marriage I mean the stats on this are everywhere you just got to go look it's not you know taking the pill so to speak but the reality in when you offer up a

[00:48:51] it's an ontological argument right the sexual ethic of the Christ follower who gives them cells to their spouse for life in the construct of marriage it's more fruitful and it's actual ability to reproduce and it's more fruitful in the joy and happiness and lack of

[00:49:10] anxiety there's all kinds of stats on this I think we can stand on that and I think our Gen Z little brothers and sisters that are out there they're way quicker to be clear on this

[00:49:20] and call this out than the Gen Xers and the leg boomers that are so nervous to be clear here and so I just would make to a professor a communicator and say with confidence with love show that

[00:49:32] there's a way and Rodney Stark is one of the guys that records this beautifully he talks about the Roman world he's a historian that talks about the Roman world here and says Rome was filled up with

[00:49:43] people who were greedy with their stuff and they were generous with their sex and the christian ethic put that on his head Christians were generous with their stuff and they were greedy with their sex

[00:49:54] and they gave themselves only to their spouses and it changed the world and I think that we're in the same kind of moment now where our genocity and our sexuality are natural ethics that we can

[00:50:06] preach the gospel with we can be scared to be clear about it yeah yeah I think you're you're so you're so right there because I do think we have to do a better job helping the world on a

[00:50:18] shendow what we're supposing is the good life like this is the best way to live your life it's not just this is what God's told us to do so we do it no this is the best way it's not just the only way

[00:50:30] it's the best way and yeah and I think and I think you and your team or a good example of how to do that in the context of of a church culture I know you'd quickly say as you have multiple times

[00:50:44] in this in this talk that you know you guys aren't perfect and obviously nobody is but I think you're doing a tremendous job and so for for listeners who are in and around South Carolina I

[00:50:53] mean like how many how many campuses do you guys have now I lose count every time I try yeah we've got 14 right now and you know South Carolina's not one big metropolitan x it's just a bunch of you know generally okay size places like Charleston Columbia and Greenville

[00:51:09] and then everything else is kind of in that rural context so that's what we've got right now yeah well and and if somebody you know is in and around South Carolina though understand this to is that culturally speaking there's a big difference between Columbia and Greenville

[00:51:26] and Murdoch and Hilton Head and so new spring is kind of a living breathing example of contextualization of hey how we do it in Hilton Head might be different than how we do in Columbia so you guys

[00:51:36] are doing a great job with that so if somebody's in and around the South Carolina area please check out new spring whatever campuses close to you they have a really active and amazing online ministry and and and and and Brad's on on Instagram and and his account new

[00:51:51] Sprint will be tagged in it there is a while want to feature Brad and just new spring in general is in the world of mega churches I think new spring's doing a good job of showing us shown us how

[00:52:01] to do this type of stuff effectively so so I appreciate you whether you're a thinker you're you're certainly a scholar pastor which I can really appreciate and and you've made a huge impact

[00:52:11] on the kingdom you made a huge impact on my life and this is really the most substantial interaction we've had and so I appreciate you and I hope listeners have been blessed I'm sure they've been

[00:52:20] so I hope you guys keep being blessed on a new spring it's tremendous to see what God's doing with you guys. Thank you brother keep up the good work and again I'm here to serve so if I can

[00:52:30] help anybody or our church can out there let us know we'd love to shepherd well in our moments so thank you so much for having me on. Thank you for listening to this episode of Basecamp.

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[00:53:22] and click on engage network. Thanks for listening I hope you love the show.