Dr. Jeff VanGoethem- Equipping Churches for Prayer and Revival

In this episode Dr. Jeff VanGoethem and I discuss the place of prayer in effecting revival in the local church.

[00:00.000 --> 00:20.820] Welcome to the Country Chapel Podcast, a show dedicated to bringing lessons in rural [00:20.820 --> 00:23.720] ministry to the Calvary Global Network. [00:23.720 --> 00:28.940] Within this show, I will be interviewing pastors, church planters, ministry leaders, and various [00:28.940 --> 00:34.860] rural network directors, all who have answered the call to minister in small and often overlooked [00:34.860 --> 00:35.860] places. [00:35.860 --> 00:41.020] The aim is to gain wisdom, guidance, and vision to help encourage and equip those already engaged [00:41.020 --> 00:46.140] in rural ministry and to make the need for a focus on rural ministry obvious to all. [00:46.140 --> 00:53.020] I am Pastor Jack Coultas, and thank you for joining me. [00:53.020 --> 00:58.380] Alright guys, well hey, welcome to another episode of the Country Chapel Podcast, and [00:58.380 --> 01:04.540] I'm really excited today because I have Dr. Jeff Van Gogham, did I say that right, Jeff? [01:04.540 --> 01:05.540] Van Gogham. [01:05.540 --> 01:06.540] Van Gogham. [01:06.540 --> 01:10.140] I got Dr. Jeff Van Gogham with us here from Dallas Seminary. [01:10.140 --> 01:13.580] Even before we started this show, I had actually asked him, how do you pronounce your last [01:13.580 --> 01:14.580] name? [01:14.580 --> 01:17.500] And then as soon as I started talking, I realized, oh, I'm going to get it wrong. [01:17.500 --> 01:22.180] But Jeff, I am so thankful that you are on the show with us today. [01:22.180 --> 01:29.260] Of course, we are a show that is dedicated to encouraging pastors and ministers in rural [01:29.260 --> 01:30.300] areas. [01:30.300 --> 01:35.220] And it was actually a friend of yours who you work with, Dr. Jeff Claussen, who said that [01:35.220 --> 01:40.020] I needed to talk to you because you were the guy to talk to about things like prayer and [01:40.020 --> 01:42.460] revival, especially in a rural context. [01:42.460 --> 01:45.960] So I'm really excited to get into that conversation here today. [01:45.960 --> 01:49.940] But before we do, why don't you go ahead and just share a little bit about yourself, [01:49.940 --> 01:54.580] your own testimony, family, education and what you are currently doing now for the Lord. [01:54.580 --> 01:55.580] Sure. [01:55.580 --> 01:56.580] Thanks, Jack. [01:56.580 --> 02:01.380] While I was raised in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, which is kind of off the beaten [02:01.380 --> 02:07.980] pathway, it grew up in a small town and the U.P. of Michigan is largely rural, so that's [02:07.980 --> 02:08.980] my background. [02:08.980 --> 02:12.860] I grew up in a devout Roman Catholic family. [02:12.860 --> 02:18.780] But suddenly, when I was about 18 or 19 in my first year of college, a little touch [02:18.860 --> 02:25.420] of revival came through our area and a lot of us young people were wonderfully saved. [02:25.420 --> 02:30.780] And I remember one summer in particular, we had a little Bible study on Thursday nights. [02:30.780 --> 02:35.460] We'd strum the guitar and sing some songs, play a little volleyball till everybody got [02:35.460 --> 02:40.580] there. Then we'd study the Bible and began to learn how to pray a little bit. [02:40.580 --> 02:46.060] And that Bible study went from 10 to 20 to 30 to 40 to 50 to 60, you know, just [02:46.060 --> 02:48.140] lots of young people being saved. [02:48.500 --> 02:54.220] It was in that same season, you know, of the old Jesus movement that was sort of localized [02:54.220 --> 02:56.860] in California, which, of course, you know a lot about that. [02:57.260 --> 03:02.100] And but it did sweep across the nation in many places. [03:02.100 --> 03:03.700] We didn't understand it at the time. [03:03.700 --> 03:07.980] I didn't know what it was, but looking back on it now, I realize it was a touch of [03:07.980 --> 03:10.900] revival. And so I had that background. [03:10.900 --> 03:14.020] And that really dramatically changed my life. [03:14.020 --> 03:21.140] I finished college eventually and made kind of a switch in career goals as I realized [03:21.140 --> 03:28.260] my passion had become to study the Bible and to get other people under the word of [03:28.260 --> 03:34.980] God. And so I went to Dallas Seminary and I didn't really think I had much of a good [03:34.980 --> 03:38.140] background to be a pastor in the years I was going through seminary. [03:38.140 --> 03:41.260] I didn't have a background in the evangelical church. [03:41.260 --> 03:45.140] And it felt like I'd be kind of a bull in a China shop, maybe. [03:45.620 --> 03:51.420] But so my wife, my wife was saved in the same touch of revival from the same [03:51.420 --> 03:54.020] hometown in the rural area of Upper Michigan. [03:54.020 --> 03:56.460] And we decided, well, we'll go into missions. [03:56.460 --> 03:58.340] So we got really interested in missions. [03:58.340 --> 04:02.260] We spent one whole summer overseas getting a taste of it. [04:02.260 --> 04:10.660] And yet, as seminary went on, we couldn't really settle on a place or a mission [04:10.660 --> 04:16.380] agency. And then all of a sudden, my last semester of seminary, I had a letter in [04:16.380 --> 04:20.620] my mailbox from a rural church in the UP of Michigan. [04:21.340 --> 04:25.740] A mutual friend had been preaching out there, a lay preacher, and he gave them my [04:25.740 --> 04:31.180] name. And a long story short, I made a visit there about 45 minutes from my [04:31.180 --> 04:34.500] hometown and they liked me and I liked them. [04:34.500 --> 04:36.460] And so I began pastoring there. [04:36.460 --> 04:42.820] Come to find out that that little church was a church that had almost died out in [04:42.820 --> 04:47.540] the 1970s, but that same touch of revival that came through our area filled that [04:47.540 --> 04:48.980] church up with young people. [04:49.500 --> 04:53.820] And so I was there with a lot of new converts and pastored there for about 10 [04:53.820 --> 04:56.700] years, wanted to go back to school. [04:56.700 --> 05:03.140] So I moved pastored down here to where I live now in Central Illinois to another [05:03.140 --> 05:08.700] kind of a rural church, had a rural history, a rural setting, but was fairly [05:08.700 --> 05:12.340] close to Bloomington normal, which is a nice Midwestern college town. [05:12.340 --> 05:18.900] So that was what Ron Klassen and I would call a urban church as a rural setting, [05:18.980 --> 05:20.780] but it's kind of closer to a town. [05:20.780 --> 05:25.460] So it's a little larger and we had staff there and went back to school, got a [05:25.460 --> 05:30.220] doctorate and was there about 20 years and had a good ministry there. [05:30.300 --> 05:38.940] Then my last 12 years I spent in Dallas trying to renew a historic inner city [05:38.940 --> 05:44.380] church, urban church, and kind of got a little bit older and started to slow [05:44.380 --> 05:45.020] down a little bit. [05:45.020 --> 05:48.700] So I came back to that same rural church where I've been senior pastor. [05:48.700 --> 05:50.180] I'm on the staff there now. [05:50.900 --> 05:56.060] I oversee the missions effort and I also lead the prayer ministries there. [05:56.260 --> 05:59.980] And then I teach at Dallas seminary and one of the faculty of another school. [06:00.060 --> 06:03.980] I do some prayer conferences, mostly in small towns and rural churches. [06:04.540 --> 06:08.260] And so, um, yeah, so that's kind of my story. [06:09.460 --> 06:09.860] Mm-hmm. [06:10.620 --> 06:15.460] And so let me ask you then, uh, so a lot of your work now really focuses [06:15.460 --> 06:17.420] on this whole topic of prayer. [06:17.420 --> 06:20.820] I mean, you talked about leading prayer conferences and such like that. [06:20.820 --> 06:25.140] And of course, so closely connected with prayer is revival. [06:25.140 --> 06:29.260] And as you shared, you know, you were like, uh, many of us who were [06:29.260 --> 06:31.420] affected from the G by the Jesus movement. [06:31.420 --> 06:32.900] Now, of course you were alive during that time. [06:32.900 --> 06:37.220] I wasn't alive yet, but I have been a beneficiary of, uh, the furthering [06:37.220 --> 06:39.700] results of that, especially, you know, with my connection with Calvary [06:39.700 --> 06:44.220] chapel and Chuck Smith and, uh, some of that group within the Jesus movement. [06:44.500 --> 06:49.620] But now what was it exactly though, that got you really interested in [06:49.620 --> 06:51.180] this topic of prayer and revival? [06:51.180 --> 06:54.660] Was it just the fact that you were, uh, that you kind of found the new [06:54.660 --> 06:58.820] birth experience, your salvation experience in the midst of a revival? [06:58.860 --> 07:02.300] Or was it something later on that really hit you and made you like, you know [07:02.300 --> 07:05.140] what, I want to dive into this and make it a focus on my ministry. [07:05.660 --> 07:08.740] It was something that happened in my first year of pastoring. [07:08.980 --> 07:14.540] Um, I came into this rural church, a sweet church, a lot of young people, [07:14.820 --> 07:21.020] but there was one older man who was the dominant personality in the church. [07:21.540 --> 07:26.780] Um, he was old enough to be my father. [07:26.940 --> 07:31.060] He was the wealthiest man in the church, chairman of the deacons, chairman [07:31.060 --> 07:32.780] of the search committee that brought me in. [07:33.140 --> 07:37.820] And I got at odds with him that first year of pastoring over doctrinal issues. [07:38.460 --> 07:42.100] He wanted to bring some things into the Sunday school and teach the kids [07:42.100 --> 07:43.660] and the young people and the adults. [07:43.660 --> 07:45.620] And some of it was false doctrine. [07:45.620 --> 07:49.800] He was actually, although an older man, a fairly young Christian and not [07:49.800 --> 07:51.420] well taught in the scriptures. [07:52.420 --> 07:58.300] So I patiently tried to work with him on this problem, but, uh, he became [07:58.300 --> 08:04.620] enraged at some point, tried to get me fired, really attacked me, uh, [08:04.660 --> 08:06.100] slandered me around the town. [08:06.620 --> 08:11.540] And it was then I realized that, you know, despite seminary education [08:11.540 --> 08:16.340] and whatever else I have going for me, I'm not going to succeed unless God helps me. [08:16.860 --> 08:19.940] And that's when I ordered my first book on prayer. [08:19.980 --> 08:23.980] I ordered, uh, the collected works of EM bounds, big fat book. [08:24.420 --> 08:28.460] And I just started asking, I need, I need to be in touch with God. [08:28.460 --> 08:29.700] I need God to help me. [08:30.100 --> 08:32.100] This is a serious work. [08:32.140 --> 08:36.060] I wasn't anticipating this kind of problem in my first year of ministry. [08:36.260 --> 08:39.300] And, you know, I really didn't know what I was doing, you know, just learning. [08:40.780 --> 08:46.420] I started to read that book and that was my gateway into the life of prayer. [08:47.060 --> 08:51.340] And then later on, I began to learn about revival through reading primarily. [08:51.780 --> 08:55.740] And then I look back on my own experience and I realized what an extraordinary [08:55.740 --> 09:01.340] thing that was as God, uh, awakened so many people at the same time. [09:01.340 --> 09:02.820] So I began to long for that. [09:03.460 --> 09:07.180] And so that gave me really, uh, a lifelong interest in the [09:07.180 --> 09:09.220] topics of prayer and revival. [09:11.420 --> 09:14.540] Jeff, I, you know, just you talk about your story of your first year. [09:14.540 --> 09:17.660] That sounds very, uh, similar to what I went through. [09:17.660 --> 09:21.180] And cause we had a head of the Deacon board and within the first month, him and [09:21.180 --> 09:23.860] I had to go at it and same thing. [09:24.100 --> 09:27.580] Slander fights, horrible, horrible introduction to rural ministry. [09:27.580 --> 09:31.620] But like you said, it's those kinds of things that open us up to the fact that [09:31.860 --> 09:35.740] it doesn't matter how much education or how smart we are, we need to commune [09:35.740 --> 09:39.180] with God and nothing will push you into the arms of the Lord more than [09:39.180 --> 09:41.700] those kinds of trials and ministry, especially early on. [09:42.260 --> 09:42.540] No. [09:42.540 --> 09:43.740] So that makes, yeah. [09:43.740 --> 09:45.060] So I definitely understand. [09:45.060 --> 09:47.940] I can relate to that experience that you just, you know, today, when we're [09:47.940 --> 09:52.340] teaching our pastoral students, we call people like that power brokers in the church. [09:52.340 --> 09:57.380] And we usually counsel younger pastors, not to take them on, but to [09:58.180 --> 10:00.060] try your best to work with them. [10:00.620 --> 10:04.380] And I think I did that to an extent, but at some point, yeah. [10:04.620 --> 10:08.780] Um, I felt perhaps my ministry would be destroyed in the first [10:08.780 --> 10:10.540] year over, over something like that. [10:10.980 --> 10:12.260] So we need the Lord to help us. [10:12.260 --> 10:12.860] That's for sure. [10:13.220 --> 10:14.180] Oh yeah, for sure. [10:14.180 --> 10:16.940] And sometimes there does reach a point you can't just get along. [10:16.940 --> 10:20.100] I mean, like the guy I was dealing with, he was a not so ex Mormon. [10:20.340 --> 10:21.860] And so there was a lot of doctrinal stuff. [10:21.860 --> 10:25.420] And like you were saying, when there's serious doctrinal matters, there [10:25.420 --> 10:27.820] does reach a point where sometimes, you know, the shepherd has to pull out [10:27.820 --> 10:30.100] the stick and it's not a fun thing to do. [10:30.100 --> 10:34.420] It's nothing that if you, if anybody who glories in that as the complete [10:34.420 --> 10:37.300] wrong heart, it is one of the most trying things we can go through. [10:37.820 --> 10:42.580] But now getting into this topic, then of revival, would you help kind [10:42.580 --> 10:44.900] of define what exactly is revival? [10:44.900 --> 10:46.260] Cause let's just be honest. [10:46.300 --> 10:51.740] Um, one of the things I have found is it seems like every different group within [10:51.740 --> 10:56.820] Christendom has a different way of defining revival and what they expect [10:56.820 --> 11:00.340] revival to look like, you know, you look at like, uh, you know, some of our [11:00.340 --> 11:04.620] friends who are very staunchly, you know, reformed, you know, they got a very [11:04.620 --> 11:07.860] specific view of what it should look like going back to the great awakening. [11:07.860 --> 11:11.060] And you know, these different things that took place, uh, some of our more [11:11.060 --> 11:14.700] charismatic friends, they got a very specific view of what they think [11:14.700 --> 11:19.220] revival should be with lots of signs and wonders and miraculous things. [11:19.460 --> 11:23.300] And so, uh, revival can be a contentious issue as well. [11:23.300 --> 11:25.460] You know, when, once Christians start talking about it. [11:25.460 --> 11:30.540] So why don't you help us kind of, um, define what is revival truly? [11:31.100 --> 11:31.540] Yes. [11:31.580 --> 11:33.580] There's a lot that can be said about that. [11:33.580 --> 11:37.820] And you touched on some of the points of contention and so forth. [11:37.860 --> 11:43.780] Um, I think Ian Murray, uh, had one of the better definitions of revival when he [11:43.780 --> 11:48.860] talked about it being an extraordinary season of the work of the Holy Spirit, [11:49.260 --> 11:54.660] which is bringing renewal to the church and awakening to the lost. [11:55.220 --> 11:59.980] And this happens in, um, unusual numbers. [12:00.900 --> 12:07.420] And then, uh, it's usually an answer to a concerted season of prayer. [12:08.140 --> 12:13.500] And so it's an extraordinary season of ministry beyond ordinary church growth. [12:14.220 --> 12:17.820] It is something that is only explicable by the grace of God. [12:17.820 --> 12:22.540] But then I think in terms of revival, we also think of big R revival [12:22.540 --> 12:29.140] and small R revival, small R revival would be the personal renewal that [12:29.140 --> 12:34.020] any born again believer can have, or a family can experience renewal. [12:34.020 --> 12:37.620] A local church can experience renewal on a small scale. [12:38.220 --> 12:44.260] Where through fresh obedience, a fresh encounter with God, uh, making a wrong [12:44.260 --> 12:50.220] right, returning to the Lord and repentance, there can be a renewal on a small scale. [12:50.220 --> 12:51.660] And that's, that's ordinary. [12:51.660 --> 12:55.340] That should happen in the life of a believer in the life of the church. [12:56.180 --> 13:00.540] But then there are those occasions, especially during the great awakenings [13:00.540 --> 13:05.700] where you really see a sovereign move of God that goes beyond such things as [13:05.700 --> 13:09.540] that, and you begin to reap where you haven't sowed, you begin to [13:09.540 --> 13:16.140] see extraordinary results, you know, in American history, you have, uh, really [13:16.180 --> 13:19.260] maybe three or four great seasons of awakening. [13:19.260 --> 13:21.500] The first great awakening colonial days. [13:21.500 --> 13:25.340] And Jonathan Edwards wrote about that the second grade awakening from [13:25.340 --> 13:30.340] 1800 to about 1840, which ebbed and flowed, but brought the gospel into [13:30.340 --> 13:35.300] the South of our country, across the mountains to the West and the [13:35.300 --> 13:38.900] Methodists and the Baptists, particularly in the South experienced [13:38.900 --> 13:44.180] dramatic, uh, uh, growth and churches and the founding of churches. [13:44.500 --> 13:48.020] Then the layman's prayer revival of 1868, those first two moves were [13:48.020 --> 13:52.260] largely rural led by pastors in 1858. [13:52.260 --> 13:56.580] You had the layman's prayer revival and this began was an urban movement [13:56.580 --> 14:00.260] primarily began in New York city spread to the great cities of the country. [14:00.260 --> 14:06.740] It was really founded, uh, by lay people and really, uh, broke out of, uh, [14:06.780 --> 14:12.300] prayer meetings that were held during the noon day and go ahead in 1904, [14:12.300 --> 14:14.580] 1905, the Welsh revival occurred. [14:14.580 --> 14:18.740] There were, uh, touches of that in the U S and other countries. [14:19.340 --> 14:23.660] And then in the post-war war two days, many would comment that perhaps [14:23.660 --> 14:29.420] it wasn't awakening on the same scale, but there was a, a powerful [14:29.420 --> 14:34.460] movement of the Holy spirit in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, the Jesus movement, [14:34.740 --> 14:39.940] the founding of the campus ministries and so forth as a great era of evangelism. [14:40.460 --> 14:45.660] And so we see these occasions where there's something beyond personal [14:45.660 --> 14:51.500] renewal or church renewal or ordinary church growth, where the church is [14:51.700 --> 14:57.180] refreshed and revival happens to the church first, and then the lost are awaken. [14:57.740 --> 15:01.540] And then of course, you know, I've come to the point where I like to [15:01.540 --> 15:10.060] see word centered revival, not just experience, not just truth, but [15:10.060 --> 15:15.380] truth and experience, and I think Tim Keller puts his finger on something. [15:15.380 --> 15:20.180] We're not talking about, uh, revival meetings where you're working [15:20.180 --> 15:23.540] something up or having special meetings, not that I'm against special meetings. [15:23.540 --> 15:26.540] I've had a lot of success with special meetings as a pastor. [15:27.500 --> 15:29.460] But you can't schedule revival. [15:29.700 --> 15:35.620] It's not ordinary church growth methods and revival meetings and so forth. [15:35.980 --> 15:39.720] And on the other hand, there isn't an emphasis on signs and wonders in the [15:39.720 --> 15:41.660] history of revival in our country. [15:42.180 --> 15:46.220] What we're looking for is the, as Tim Keller says, the intensification of [15:46.220 --> 15:52.380] the ordinary work of the Holy spirit, the experience of the new birth, the [15:52.380 --> 15:58.380] conviction of sin, the massive experience of grace, uh, such that people [15:58.380 --> 16:00.220] find assurance of their salvation. [16:00.220 --> 16:02.900] Their lives are changed for time and eternity. [16:03.500 --> 16:09.900] And so you see the ordinary means of the spirit, conviction of sin, the new [16:09.900 --> 16:14.180] birth, the experience of grace, holiness of life, I think these are [16:14.180 --> 16:15.940] the characteristics of revival. [16:15.940 --> 16:21.420] I just, uh, get my Bible open here to, uh, acts chapter three, if we want to [16:21.420 --> 16:25.740] root this in scripture where Peter is preaching and he says, repent [16:25.740 --> 16:32.460] therefore and turn back that your sins be blotted out that times of refreshing [16:32.780 --> 16:34.700] may come from the presence of the Lord. [16:35.140 --> 16:38.300] That he may send Christ appointed for you, Jesus. [16:38.300 --> 16:40.820] So we see repentance and turning. [16:41.660 --> 16:46.740] We see sins blotted out, very powerful term, a massive experience of grace. [16:47.220 --> 16:52.260] It's a season of refreshing from the presence of the Lord. [16:52.820 --> 16:56.820] And so as we look at perhaps the old Testament, we see the cycle of [16:56.820 --> 17:02.180] revival and the era of the judges or the era of the Kings where God's [17:02.180 --> 17:05.700] people would drift, God would afflict them. [17:05.940 --> 17:07.140] They will repent. [17:07.740 --> 17:09.180] God would come to them again. [17:09.780 --> 17:12.900] And so this is, I think, uh, what we mean by revival. [17:12.980 --> 17:18.940] It's a fresh season of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in response to prayer [17:19.620 --> 17:25.140] that God brings to his people and then awakens the lost in the world. [17:25.140 --> 17:30.420] And they come in, in unusual numbers, the season usually, usually [17:30.420 --> 17:33.980] doesn't last forever, but it's a very important season. [17:34.180 --> 17:39.220] And I hate to think Jack in these days, as we pastor that we lose [17:39.220 --> 17:42.700] sight of this concept, you know, we're, we're laboring in our [17:42.700 --> 17:46.140] churches, we're preaching, we're praying, we're witnessing, we're [17:46.380 --> 17:49.620] discipling, we're, we're building our church. [17:49.620 --> 17:52.660] We're casting vision and that's all good. [17:53.540 --> 17:57.700] But, uh, a lot of times we're doing all that or just barely holding our own ground. [17:58.300 --> 18:02.620] But we want to see God breakthrough into new seasons of ministry. [18:02.820 --> 18:04.420] That's going to take prayer and revival. [18:05.380 --> 18:05.740] Yeah. [18:06.260 --> 18:10.220] So why don't we kind of press into that whole aspect of prayer? [18:10.220 --> 18:13.060] Because this is where I feel like sometimes there's a tension point. [18:13.060 --> 18:15.900] Like you kind of brought up, you know, we can't just schedule [18:15.900 --> 18:17.300] a revival to make it happen. [18:17.540 --> 18:20.300] And of course, in my neck of the woods, and I'm sure it's kind of similar [18:20.300 --> 18:23.540] up in your area too, there are still a lot of churches that do host, [18:23.580 --> 18:25.020] you know, revival meetings. [18:25.020 --> 18:28.540] And even my church down here, you know, we'll do once or twice a week, [18:28.540 --> 18:31.380] you know, what they traditionally call revivals. [18:31.420 --> 18:35.420] And, you know, we know down here is kind of like, you know, we can't [18:35.420 --> 18:41.060] just make a revival happen, but there is, you know, kind of dating back to Finney, [18:41.260 --> 18:43.820] you know, this whole idea that you could kind of manufacture [18:43.820 --> 18:47.900] revivals and such, you know, and so we recognize that you can't do that. [18:47.900 --> 18:50.420] You can't just be like, Hey, here's a revival this week. [18:50.420 --> 18:52.060] Revival is going to happen this week. [18:52.300 --> 18:54.500] You know, that has to be a sovereign act of the Lord. [18:54.780 --> 18:57.180] Yet there is an aspect where it seems like, and we see this all [18:57.180 --> 19:01.340] throughout history, where God does move through the actions of his [19:01.340 --> 19:06.060] people, specifically prayer, in order to bring out a revival. [19:06.180 --> 19:07.260] Now, how does that work? [19:07.260 --> 19:13.980] What part then does prayer and us pressing into prayer have then in bringing [19:13.980 --> 19:16.340] revival, especially in our local congregations? [19:16.660 --> 19:20.420] Yeah, yeah, I'm in sympathy with what you're saying there. [19:21.700 --> 19:26.460] And I'm not against revival meetings or special meetings. [19:26.460 --> 19:27.900] I have had them many times. [19:28.420 --> 19:32.660] My, my approach was to have weeks of concerted prayer. [19:33.180 --> 19:36.660] You'd have preaching and praying, because what you were doing when you [19:36.660 --> 19:38.620] do that, you're lavishing time on God. [19:39.540 --> 19:42.660] And, you know, you're never going to have revival unless you lavish time on God, [19:42.660 --> 19:44.620] unless you're willing to go to God. [19:44.620 --> 19:50.980] So in revival, we're not seeking an event or even a special season. [19:51.020 --> 19:52.580] We're really seeking God. [19:53.540 --> 20:01.540] So teaching people to seek the Lord for a fresh work of his grace in our [20:01.540 --> 20:05.660] lives and in the lives of the lost around us, that's really the kind of [20:05.660 --> 20:07.140] prayer we need to be making. [20:07.140 --> 20:12.420] So as pastors, hopefully we're teaching our people how to walk with God, [20:12.420 --> 20:14.980] how to pray, how to build faith. [20:15.100 --> 20:20.740] And if you look at the history of revival, you see for some extraordinary [20:20.740 --> 20:27.820] reason, people began to see a need for seeking the Lord afresh. [20:27.860 --> 20:29.580] And this led to prayer movements. [20:30.700 --> 20:35.020] You can go back to the Moravian movement preceding the first great awakening [20:35.020 --> 20:40.020] where Karl Zinzendorf gathered all these people in the various post [20:40.020 --> 20:44.380] reformation denominations and tried to get them to have unity. [20:44.380 --> 20:52.100] And if you look at John chapter 14, 15, 16, 17, where he says, I pray that [20:52.100 --> 20:55.980] you may be one that the world would know that you have sent me. [20:56.700 --> 21:00.540] So you see the church unifying in the book of Acts, you see Acts chapter [21:00.540 --> 21:05.780] one, verse 14, the people devoted to prayer and then the outpouring came. [21:06.260 --> 21:10.780] So unity, prayer, these are the conditions for revival. [21:10.780 --> 21:14.340] So as we have special meetings, hopefully we're creating those conditions. [21:14.940 --> 21:19.220] You know, there is a human side of it where, yeah, we need this God and [21:19.220 --> 21:22.740] we're going to set aside time to seek you and we're going to pray and we're [21:22.740 --> 21:24.580] going to wait and we're going to build our faith. [21:24.580 --> 21:28.380] We're going to get under the burden of God and what would God wants for our world? [21:29.020 --> 21:34.500] And so nurturing a congregation or the people of God into that kind of prayer [21:34.500 --> 21:36.700] experiences, I think very, very important. [21:37.300 --> 21:37.700] Mm hmm. [21:38.660 --> 21:44.340] And so, you know, you've touched on the need and the good, how good it is [21:44.340 --> 21:48.780] to have these times and these seasons of concerted prayer and on the [21:48.780 --> 21:50.380] word and pressing into the Lord. [21:50.660 --> 21:53.660] But like you brought up, you know, the church you're back at now, you're [21:53.660 --> 21:55.980] no longer the senior pastor, you're one of the associate pastors there. [21:55.980 --> 21:58.780] And you're in charge of the prayer ministry at the church. [21:59.060 --> 22:00.740] What does that look like then? [22:00.740 --> 22:04.900] You know, for the general day to day, Sunday to Sunday aspect of the church [22:04.900 --> 22:10.060] as well, beyond just those special, you know, week or two concerted seasons. [22:10.060 --> 22:12.180] What does it look like in the general life of the church? [22:12.300 --> 22:17.620] Okay, I think pastors have to teach rather relentlessly on prayer because [22:17.620 --> 22:23.500] we live in a time when people can be very prayer adverse, maybe some of [22:23.500 --> 22:27.340] the ways we've taught church about the right means and doing all the [22:27.340 --> 22:32.340] right things and the success model and the mega churches and all of this. [22:33.060 --> 22:36.020] Maybe we've given people the idea that if we just do things the [22:36.020 --> 22:37.660] right way, we'll see God work. [22:38.500 --> 22:45.460] So changing that whole concept and, you know, bringing in the teaching on [22:45.460 --> 22:47.580] prayer, so I think pastors need to teach on prayer. [22:48.100 --> 22:50.780] And then I think we need to teach people the quiet time. [22:51.340 --> 22:56.420] So they learn to get along with God and the two feet off of each other. [22:56.420 --> 22:59.980] Somebody praying at home is probably something going to turn up at a [22:59.980 --> 23:05.180] prayer meeting at church, but then the prayer meeting itself, I hope we [23:05.180 --> 23:07.220] still have prayer meetings in our churches. [23:07.260 --> 23:14.180] I mean, I'm a big believer in this, but not like some of the old prayer [23:14.180 --> 23:18.500] meetings that I went to back in the day, where you would begin to get a [23:18.500 --> 23:22.780] little chalkboard there and list everybody's ailments and who's traveling [23:22.780 --> 23:26.660] and who needs a job, and you take about a half an hour to do that. [23:26.660 --> 23:29.660] And you have a discussion about what doctor they should go to and [23:29.660 --> 23:32.580] who's hiring, and, you know, we try to do God's work for them. [23:32.580 --> 23:36.260] And then we talk all about that and we say, oh man, time's up. [23:36.260 --> 23:39.540] We got to pray five minutes left, you know, rather. [23:39.980 --> 23:46.780] I think we need God centered prayer meetings where we are worshiping the Lord. [23:46.780 --> 23:50.620] I encourage all the pastors to get Daniel Henderson's book on fresh [23:50.620 --> 23:56.020] encounters, where he lays out a concept of worship based prayer meetings. [23:56.020 --> 23:59.220] So what we do in our prayer meetings, we worship the Lord. [23:59.980 --> 24:04.060] With singing, response, spontaneous praying. [24:04.420 --> 24:09.460] We usually have a theme, a little bit of teaching, and then we seek the Lord [24:09.460 --> 24:16.860] and we stay focused on the bigger things, the need for conversions, the need [24:16.860 --> 24:19.900] for the church to fulfill the will of God. [24:20.500 --> 24:25.100] And we have a brief time when we can bring those personal needs to the Lord, [24:25.100 --> 24:28.860] because those are important and we don't want to totally abandon that, but [24:28.860 --> 24:30.020] there are ways to do that. [24:30.500 --> 24:40.220] So our prayer meeting resembles more of a prayerful worship service with [24:40.260 --> 24:43.300] a little shorter sermon and more praying. [24:44.060 --> 24:47.580] So hopefully people go home built up, filled up with God. [24:48.100 --> 24:51.940] And then something our senior pastor has been doing a lot more of lately, [24:52.660 --> 24:58.740] even in the worship service, to have people get in groups and seek the Lord. [24:59.180 --> 25:03.580] Our pastor this past year went through a series on revival. [25:03.580 --> 25:06.940] He taught on revival through the book of Ezra. [25:07.580 --> 25:11.100] And then while he was doing that, I was teaching on revival in the prayer [25:11.100 --> 25:15.220] meeting and we began to gather people in groups in the churches. [25:15.220 --> 25:17.220] And you know, we're a Midwestern church. [25:17.220 --> 25:22.780] People are not all that demonstrative and so forth, you know, and we have [25:22.780 --> 25:25.540] a larger church for rural setting. [25:25.540 --> 25:29.940] And, you know, you see hundreds of people gathered in prayer and even the visitors, [25:29.940 --> 25:33.780] you know, they probably feel a little funny about that, but we tell them, [25:33.780 --> 25:36.060] Hey, if you're not used to that, that's okay. [25:36.500 --> 25:38.540] Just join your heart with the prayer. [25:38.540 --> 25:42.940] We don't want to shame or blame anybody who want you to experience God. [25:42.940 --> 25:48.340] And so I think we need to bring prayer back into the body of Christ [25:48.340 --> 25:54.300] in any way we can, not only with the special seasons of prayer, we usually [25:54.300 --> 25:57.300] have a week of prayer here at the beginning of the year, where we have [25:57.300 --> 26:00.860] some cottage prayer meetings, some special prayer meetings in the church. [26:01.860 --> 26:07.140] So, and as a pastor for your pastoring, a church that is not a praying church. [26:07.700 --> 26:12.780] It's going to take time and nurture and teaching to bring them back to this [26:12.780 --> 26:16.300] understanding of how desperately we need God in these days. [26:16.900 --> 26:21.820] So we don't want to clobber people with this stuff, but, you know, [26:21.820 --> 26:26.100] bring them along, nurture them along and you, you can make progress in this. [26:26.100 --> 26:30.300] I've seen a lot of progress made just through a patient, caring, pastoral [26:30.300 --> 26:33.700] approach to bringing prayer back to the life of the people. [26:34.780 --> 26:39.900] You know, that reminds me of something that I learned when I was co-pastoring [26:39.900 --> 26:43.060] a church in Seattle as part of a Calvert chapel church plant in the [26:43.060 --> 26:44.300] Wallingford area of Seattle. [26:44.300 --> 26:47.380] And, you know, a couple of times a year, you know, we do weeks of prayer [26:47.540 --> 26:50.460] where we would have, you know, we'd meet at somebody's house, you know, from [26:50.460 --> 26:51.980] like, you know, six to eight or something like that. [26:51.980 --> 26:53.180] You know, it's supposed to be a prayer time. [26:53.180 --> 26:56.460] And one of the things I found was, you know, you generally kind of get the [26:56.460 --> 27:00.220] same people would come to it and trying to get the whole church to really [27:00.220 --> 27:02.900] get excited about this was a difficult thing. [27:02.900 --> 27:06.140] And, and I just remember the Lord kind of laying it on my heart. [27:06.140 --> 27:08.420] Hey, you know, if the people aren't going to come to the prayer meeting, [27:08.420 --> 27:10.060] bring the prayer meeting to the people. [27:10.540 --> 27:13.820] If they're not going to show up for these special prayer times, hey, that's [27:13.820 --> 27:17.660] fine, they're going to be there on Sundays, incorporate a lot of prayer. [27:17.660 --> 27:20.260] And so I really like what you're talking about, like what your head [27:20.260 --> 27:23.940] pastor there is doing at your guys's church about getting the people in [27:23.940 --> 27:27.940] the church gathering to circle around one another, to be praying for one [27:27.940 --> 27:33.540] another and to really take advantage of that time when the most people [27:33.540 --> 27:36.540] will be there, because of course, how else are we going to train people [27:36.700 --> 27:41.860] in what prayer is and the need of prayer and how good prayer is if we [27:41.860 --> 27:47.500] are not facilitating in our biggest gathering places opportunities [27:47.500 --> 27:50.620] for prayer, you know, it just seems like unfortunately, and I'm a [27:50.620 --> 27:53.340] word guy, I'm all about preaching the scriptures and preaching it [27:53.340 --> 27:55.420] well and preaching it clearly preaching it long. [27:55.620 --> 27:58.740] But we have to remember as well, we are not just word people. [27:58.980 --> 28:02.020] We're also supposed to be communing with the Lord, speaking with [28:02.020 --> 28:03.380] the Lord, talking with the Lord. [28:03.500 --> 28:05.420] And that is something we need to model on our Sundays. [28:05.420 --> 28:08.220] And so I think that's a that's an awesome exhortation you have [28:08.780 --> 28:09.300] given there. [28:09.300 --> 28:12.860] And you guys have brought into your church there as well. [28:13.860 --> 28:20.220] But now kind of with that idea, do you guys do prayer teams at your [28:20.220 --> 28:22.460] church also like to pray for people? [28:22.460 --> 28:24.860] Like how does that kind of work in your guys's congregation? [28:25.700 --> 28:29.620] Yeah, we had a thing years ago when I was a senior pastor here, [28:29.620 --> 28:32.380] we called the Prayer Corps, it was like a prayer team. [28:32.420 --> 28:34.660] And these people had a number of duties. [28:34.700 --> 28:40.860] One was a one Sunday a month, they would pray through all of the [28:40.860 --> 28:42.540] services on Sunday morning. [28:43.260 --> 28:46.780] And they would be given, you can turn in a prayer request to the [28:46.780 --> 28:49.500] church office and they would be given a sheet and they would pray [28:49.500 --> 28:50.500] through that and so forth. [28:50.500 --> 28:51.460] We still do that. [28:51.940 --> 28:57.420] And these people would go on a retreat a couple times a year and [28:57.420 --> 29:00.300] would kind of be the prayer champions, the prayer leaders. [29:01.380 --> 29:05.180] When I came back to the church after being gone for 12 years, [29:05.180 --> 29:07.100] that thing had kind of fossilized. [29:07.500 --> 29:10.780] And so I thought I met with all of them and I said, let's [29:10.780 --> 29:12.140] kind of redo this. [29:12.620 --> 29:15.580] So what we're really doing now is we're really focused on [29:15.660 --> 29:17.820] getting the people out to the prayer meeting. [29:18.220 --> 29:22.460] We produce a list of needs every week that comes out of our [29:22.460 --> 29:26.460] church office that's disseminated through the people who want to [29:26.460 --> 29:26.980] pray. [29:27.740 --> 29:31.260] And so we make sure that everybody in church can feel that [29:31.260 --> 29:33.580] someone's going to pray for them if they have a need. [29:34.140 --> 29:37.060] We do have a lot of small groups, we have 33 small groups [29:37.060 --> 29:41.900] in our church and they are taught to pray for one another [29:41.900 --> 29:43.220] and take their needs to God. [29:43.220 --> 29:48.260] So I think this idea of praying for one another's needs is [29:48.460 --> 29:52.260] pretty well taken care of in our church that way. [29:52.420 --> 29:55.580] That gives us the liberty then in our prayer meetings and [29:55.580 --> 29:58.140] our prayer gatherings to really focus on God. [29:58.940 --> 30:00.540] What is God saying to us? [30:01.340 --> 30:03.020] What is he burdening us with? [30:03.380 --> 30:04.540] How can we worship him? [30:04.540 --> 30:05.460] How can we serve him? [30:05.460 --> 30:07.220] How can we grow our faith? [30:08.220 --> 30:12.060] The importance, as we live our lives through these barren [30:12.060 --> 30:15.940] times we are in, we don't want to wait on God with just [30:15.940 --> 30:19.940] the passivity, but we want to grow in our faith, deepen [30:19.940 --> 30:22.020] our commitment, deepen our seeking. [30:22.220 --> 30:24.860] And so we focus our prayer gatherings on those kinds of [30:24.860 --> 30:25.260] things. [30:26.860 --> 30:27.460] That's good. [30:27.500 --> 30:28.100] That's good. [30:28.740 --> 30:32.260] And so when you're focusing your prayer gathering on these [30:32.260 --> 30:35.300] kinds of things, so you had brought up, you do some time [30:35.340 --> 30:37.940] of worship, you do a little bit of teaching, and then you [30:37.940 --> 30:38.820] go into prayer. [30:38.940 --> 30:40.860] How do you organize that prayer time? [30:41.060 --> 30:43.620] Like, is everybody grouped up into small groups? [30:43.620 --> 30:44.980] Is it just, they're all sitting in the pews and [30:44.980 --> 30:45.860] people stand up and pray? [30:45.860 --> 30:47.140] Well, what does that look like for you guys? [30:47.660 --> 30:48.980] A lot of variety. [30:49.260 --> 30:51.700] I try to change it up a lot. [30:51.700 --> 30:58.140] So yes, sometimes usually after the end of the time [30:58.140 --> 31:02.260] of worship, we're going to spend some time in praise. [31:03.260 --> 31:06.020] That can be as the whole group together, and people [31:06.020 --> 31:09.420] just call out short prayers, or we gather in groups of [31:09.420 --> 31:12.180] three or four or five or six and pray together. [31:13.380 --> 31:14.900] We have a little teaching then. [31:15.660 --> 31:20.820] We could have some seasons of prayer over different [31:21.060 --> 31:22.500] kind of big requests. [31:22.980 --> 31:25.500] Sometimes we get the people in groups, they stand [31:25.500 --> 31:26.940] together or sit together. [31:27.540 --> 31:30.500] Sometimes we stay all together and call it out. [31:33.100 --> 31:37.300] Sometimes I come on a prayer meeting and I just say [31:37.660 --> 31:39.780] tonight, we're just going to pray. [31:39.900 --> 31:44.180] And everybody's in a big giant group and you can [31:44.180 --> 31:46.860] pray, you can read scripture, you can lead in a song. [31:46.860 --> 31:49.020] We're just going to see how the Spirit leads us. [31:50.220 --> 31:53.180] Sometimes I do it layman's prayer revival style. [31:53.180 --> 31:55.540] If you go back and study what they did in the [31:55.540 --> 31:59.380] Third Great Awakening, they would have a song or [31:59.380 --> 32:01.020] time of worship briefly. [32:01.340 --> 32:05.100] And then they would just take requests and then two [32:05.100 --> 32:07.260] or three people would pray for each request and we [32:07.260 --> 32:10.380] move on through the whole hour and whatever's on [32:10.380 --> 32:14.260] the hearts of the people is prayed for. [32:14.980 --> 32:17.500] And so you can have a lot of variety, a lot of [32:17.500 --> 32:18.060] variety. [32:18.540 --> 32:21.820] Again, I'm encouraging everybody to get Daniel [32:21.820 --> 32:25.100] Henderson's book, Fresh Encounters, where he [32:25.100 --> 32:28.660] spells out a lot of these methods. [32:28.740 --> 32:32.020] He has this kind of standard method of it's sort [32:32.020 --> 32:39.220] of a cross, it's sort of like praise, humility and [32:39.220 --> 32:42.620] repentance, praying for one another, praying for [32:42.620 --> 32:45.500] the world, kind of a sequence of four. [32:45.620 --> 32:48.460] I mean, you can do this in an hour and have a [32:48.460 --> 32:49.420] really great time. [32:49.460 --> 32:52.020] You know, the time goes by fast. [32:52.060 --> 32:54.100] People are praying together. [32:54.420 --> 32:56.220] So just a lot of variety. [32:56.780 --> 32:57.220] Mm hmm. [32:57.700 --> 32:59.620] You know, and you mentioned, you know, you can [32:59.620 --> 33:00.300] do this in an hour. [33:00.300 --> 33:02.500] Is that normally your guys' scheduled prayer [33:02.500 --> 33:02.820] meeting? [33:02.860 --> 33:04.820] Is it an hour or how much time do you guys have [33:04.820 --> 33:06.180] blocked out for your prayer? [33:06.180 --> 33:11.260] Yeah, we, it coincides with an Awana program we [33:11.260 --> 33:11.860] have here. [33:12.340 --> 33:12.580] Okay. [33:12.620 --> 33:14.700] People bring their kids to Awana, they come into [33:14.700 --> 33:15.580] the prayer meeting. [33:17.100 --> 33:22.060] So Awana goes for about an hour and a half or [33:22.060 --> 33:22.660] so. [33:23.060 --> 33:26.380] So we generally, we generally probably go an [33:26.380 --> 33:27.740] hour and 15 minutes. [33:28.060 --> 33:28.380] Yeah. [33:28.460 --> 33:30.300] That's usually the length of it, just for the [33:30.300 --> 33:32.620] sake of the practicalities of what we're facing. [33:33.260 --> 33:37.900] Now, we just kind of repainted and redid our [33:37.900 --> 33:40.260] worship center last fall. [33:40.300 --> 33:43.700] And one thing we did is on the Sunday, we were [33:43.700 --> 33:44.940] going to go back in there. [33:44.940 --> 33:46.380] We had been meeting in a gym. [33:46.900 --> 33:48.060] We're going to go back in there. [33:48.060 --> 33:50.620] We had a Friday night watch night prayer from [33:50.620 --> 33:51.780] six to midnight. [33:52.660 --> 33:56.460] Where on the half hours, one of our elders would [33:56.460 --> 33:57.860] read scripture and pray. [33:58.220 --> 34:00.380] We give the people a little prayer guide. [34:00.380 --> 34:02.140] They could come and go if they wanted. [34:02.740 --> 34:06.260] And so all night long from six to 12, we had [34:07.060 --> 34:10.580] people coming and going and with a little [34:10.580 --> 34:12.900] prayer guide, a little direction from the elders [34:12.900 --> 34:15.180] and the pulpit, we had a very wonderful prayer [34:15.180 --> 34:18.500] time just to thank God for the refreshing of [34:18.500 --> 34:21.580] that room and asking him to refresh our lives [34:21.580 --> 34:23.340] as well as refreshing the room. [34:23.380 --> 34:25.900] So, you know, you can do things that are [34:25.940 --> 34:28.260] creative and there's, you know, if you're not [34:28.260 --> 34:30.300] a creative person like me, I mean, I've never [34:30.300 --> 34:31.340] had an original thought. [34:31.540 --> 34:35.340] So, you know, I read stuff and I learn from it [34:35.340 --> 34:37.260] and then I try to put it into practice. [34:38.540 --> 34:40.460] You know, I really appreciate that, that [34:40.460 --> 34:43.140] little encouragement there because I feel like [34:43.140 --> 34:45.020] too many people when it comes to prayer, [34:45.260 --> 34:47.180] sometimes they feel like it all has to be [34:47.180 --> 34:48.540] some sort of spontaneous thing. [34:48.540 --> 34:49.820] The Holy Spirit lays on your heart. [34:49.820 --> 34:51.060] Oh, we're going to do this now. [34:51.220 --> 34:54.060] And they think if they take somebody else's [34:54.060 --> 34:57.020] idea or way of doing things that somehow [34:57.020 --> 34:58.260] it's not the same. [34:58.260 --> 34:59.380] And it's like, no, that's not, that's not [34:59.380 --> 35:00.220] how it is at all. [35:00.220 --> 35:02.140] I mean, we need to learn from each other on [35:02.140 --> 35:03.460] how to do these kinds of things and get [35:03.460 --> 35:04.820] inspiration from each other. [35:04.820 --> 35:06.540] And I think the main thing the Lord is after [35:06.540 --> 35:08.700] is he just wants us to come and seek his [35:08.700 --> 35:12.340] place and whatever we need to encourage that, [35:12.420 --> 35:13.700] we need to be going after that. [35:13.740 --> 35:14.620] That's exactly right. [35:14.660 --> 35:16.980] You know, just whatever we can do to [35:16.980 --> 35:20.100] encourage freshness, you know, because doing [35:20.100 --> 35:21.980] the same thing over and over and over and [35:21.980 --> 35:25.700] over again can tend to incline us towards [35:25.740 --> 35:27.180] just going through the motions. [35:27.260 --> 35:30.660] So yeah, so we have, we have some music [35:30.660 --> 35:35.340] at our prayer meeting and, and, and some [35:35.340 --> 35:38.020] teaching, but then who knows what might [35:38.020 --> 35:40.020] happen, you know, whatever I feel like I [35:40.020 --> 35:42.140] should do that the next week I do. [35:42.140 --> 35:44.220] And I don't normally plan it out in a [35:44.220 --> 35:45.260] long way in advance. [35:45.260 --> 35:46.660] Sometimes I'm just bringing in there, [35:46.660 --> 35:48.380] what's going on in my own life, you know, [35:49.020 --> 35:52.060] and trying to help the people learn to [35:52.060 --> 35:53.740] pray and grow in their prayer life. [35:54.460 --> 35:54.780] Yeah. [35:55.140 --> 35:56.620] You know that, you know, you, you [35:56.620 --> 35:57.860] already touched on something that I [35:57.860 --> 35:59.300] was definitely wanting us to dive into. [35:59.300 --> 36:00.780] And it's this whole idea of keeping the [36:00.780 --> 36:02.580] prayer ministry from fizzling out in [36:02.580 --> 36:03.140] the church. [36:03.460 --> 36:04.700] So like you said, you know, there, [36:04.700 --> 36:05.900] there has to be freshness. [36:05.900 --> 36:07.260] It can't just be the same old thing. [36:07.260 --> 36:08.780] And, and this is something right now, [36:08.780 --> 36:10.860] actually, I'm really happy we're having [36:10.860 --> 36:12.420] this conversation when we are, because [36:12.420 --> 36:14.500] we started a prayer meeting or we got [36:14.500 --> 36:15.860] two prayer meetings going on at our [36:15.860 --> 36:18.580] church now that we started almost [36:18.580 --> 36:21.300] exactly one year ago, we have a Monday [36:21.300 --> 36:23.140] evening one and we have a Friday [36:23.140 --> 36:26.100] morning one and the fruit of it has [36:26.100 --> 36:26.700] been great. [36:26.740 --> 36:29.060] I mean, we have seen more people come [36:29.100 --> 36:31.500] in during this year than we had in, [36:31.540 --> 36:33.060] you know, quite, quite a few recent [36:33.060 --> 36:34.300] years, I've been pastoring the church [36:34.300 --> 36:35.860] now for 10 years and just in this [36:35.860 --> 36:36.900] last year, we've seen a lot of new [36:36.900 --> 36:38.540] people come in, you know, number of [36:38.540 --> 36:41.140] baptisms, new people becoming official [36:41.140 --> 36:42.740] members, you know, we got some of [36:42.740 --> 36:44.260] those people who they've started [36:44.260 --> 36:45.300] coming to the church. [36:45.300 --> 36:46.900] They still got some life stuff. [36:46.900 --> 36:48.420] They're trying to work out, but [36:48.420 --> 36:49.660] they're there consistently. [36:49.660 --> 36:51.580] And, and I'm not a guy who pulls [36:51.580 --> 36:52.580] back on preaching. [36:52.580 --> 36:53.460] It's like, I'm going to talk about [36:53.460 --> 36:55.500] this stuff and the people are still [36:55.500 --> 36:56.580] there, they're listening, they're [36:56.580 --> 36:57.500] hearing, and you see the Holy [36:57.500 --> 36:58.700] Spirit working, which is a great [36:58.700 --> 36:59.260] thing to see. [36:59.580 --> 37:01.260] And like me and one of my elders, [37:01.260 --> 37:02.340] we've said this over and over [37:02.340 --> 37:04.420] again, we can tell that this is [37:04.660 --> 37:06.700] an exact result of these prayer [37:06.700 --> 37:08.220] meetings we've been having, you [37:08.220 --> 37:09.460] know, but we're at the one year [37:09.460 --> 37:11.980] mark and things are, we're kind [37:11.980 --> 37:12.780] of at that point, it's like [37:13.060 --> 37:14.380] things need to get freshened up [37:14.380 --> 37:16.220] here, because if not, it is just [37:16.220 --> 37:17.820] going to become rote. [37:17.980 --> 37:19.940] And so, you know, with some of [37:19.940 --> 37:20.820] these things you've mentioned, [37:20.820 --> 37:22.180] what else are things that you [37:22.180 --> 37:25.180] would recommend to keep [37:25.180 --> 37:26.900] incorporating and keep changing [37:26.900 --> 37:28.900] up so that, you know, things [37:28.900 --> 37:30.180] like this don't fizzle out? [37:30.740 --> 37:32.300] Mm hmm. Yeah. [37:32.620 --> 37:34.820] You know, prayer retreat, you [37:34.820 --> 37:35.940] know, we're going to go away on [37:35.940 --> 37:39.140] a Saturday and you do a minimal [37:39.140 --> 37:40.060] amount of planning and [37:40.060 --> 37:41.540] organizing, break up the day a [37:41.540 --> 37:42.220] little bit. [37:42.220 --> 37:44.740] Maybe have some worship in the [37:44.740 --> 37:46.860] morning, maybe give people a [37:48.460 --> 37:49.700] hour to spend with God [37:49.700 --> 37:51.020] themselves, give them a little [37:51.020 --> 37:52.340] direction on that, come back [37:52.340 --> 37:54.020] together, do some things [37:54.020 --> 37:56.700] corporately, a week of prayer [37:56.700 --> 37:57.700] where you have some whole [37:57.700 --> 38:00.260] meetings, you know, one other [38:00.260 --> 38:01.620] thing that can work really [38:01.620 --> 38:03.540] good, Jack, have a special [38:03.540 --> 38:06.460] speaker in. Sometimes us old [38:06.460 --> 38:08.260] pastors, we can say the same [38:08.260 --> 38:09.700] thing to our people when we [38:09.700 --> 38:12.020] bring in a guy from an expert, [38:12.020 --> 38:13.260] you know, an expert's divine [38:13.260 --> 38:14.460] to somebody who lives at least [38:14.460 --> 38:15.860] an hour away, you know, you [38:15.860 --> 38:18.260] bring them in and they do some [38:18.260 --> 38:19.900] teaching, some guidance on [38:19.900 --> 38:21.060] prayer, and maybe they [38:21.060 --> 38:22.420] receive that better than they [38:22.420 --> 38:25.340] do from us. So special speakers, [38:25.340 --> 38:29.300] special seasons or a week of [38:29.300 --> 38:32.100] prayer, something like that. In [38:32.100 --> 38:34.860] my pastorate in Dallas for the [38:34.860 --> 38:36.540] 12 years I was there the first [38:36.540 --> 38:39.220] Sunday of the year. And the [38:39.300 --> 38:41.260] Sunday around July 4th was [38:41.260 --> 38:42.380] always, we're going to have a [38:42.380 --> 38:44.140] prayer service in the worship [38:44.140 --> 38:46.260] service. We're going to pray [38:46.260 --> 38:47.580] for our country right around [38:47.580 --> 38:49.780] July 4th, beginning of the [38:49.780 --> 38:50.660] year, we're going to pray for [38:50.660 --> 38:52.740] the new year. And we don't [38:52.780 --> 38:54.060] necessarily have a long [38:54.060 --> 38:56.420] sermon. We have some [38:56.420 --> 38:57.620] scripture, we read some [38:57.620 --> 38:59.260] scripture, we pray together, [38:59.300 --> 39:01.420] we interspersed with worship [39:01.420 --> 39:02.820] times and so forth. So we [39:02.820 --> 39:04.980] just schedule a special prayer [39:04.980 --> 39:06.220] service. So those are good [39:06.220 --> 39:09.900] too. On occasions when you [39:09.900 --> 39:11.740] have special things that [39:11.740 --> 39:14.220] happen, maybe it's a cultural [39:14.220 --> 39:15.620] thing, maybe it's a national [39:15.620 --> 39:17.140] thing, you can call the [39:17.140 --> 39:19.780] people for prayer. And you [39:19.780 --> 39:21.700] know, I would just say, you [39:21.700 --> 39:24.140] know, whatever might work in [39:24.140 --> 39:25.500] your context, everybody's [39:25.500 --> 39:27.180] context is a little different. [39:27.180 --> 39:27.980] You got to know, you know, [39:27.980 --> 39:28.980] your people, you know, your [39:28.980 --> 39:32.500] community. What works for us [39:32.500 --> 39:33.740] may not work for you that [39:33.740 --> 39:36.140] great. But whatever you can [39:36.140 --> 39:39.620] do to stimulate prayer, teach [39:39.620 --> 39:41.900] on prayer, give examples of [39:41.900 --> 39:43.860] prayer sermon illustrations [39:43.860 --> 39:45.460] that talk about praying [39:45.460 --> 39:46.740] movements, challenging the [39:46.740 --> 39:48.820] people, not shaming and [39:48.820 --> 39:51.140] blaming, but nurturing, [39:51.180 --> 39:53.820] bringing them along. And I [39:53.820 --> 39:55.180] think this thing of prayer, [39:55.220 --> 39:56.380] you know, none of us has it [39:56.380 --> 39:57.580] all together. We're all in [39:57.580 --> 39:59.500] the school of prayer. And [39:59.500 --> 40:00.860] sometimes I think most of [40:00.860 --> 40:01.940] us feel we're in this first [40:01.940 --> 40:03.380] grade yet, you know, so you [40:03.380 --> 40:04.740] just encourage people that [40:04.740 --> 40:05.860] know, I don't expect you to [40:05.860 --> 40:07.300] be a spiritual giant, can't [40:07.300 --> 40:08.460] but can we grow in our [40:08.460 --> 40:11.860] prayer lives? You know, can [40:11.860 --> 40:14.980] we, can we learn? Can we [40:15.020 --> 40:17.260] become more fervent? Can we [40:17.260 --> 40:19.460] become more prayerful? Can [40:19.460 --> 40:21.940] we become more devoted? You [40:21.940 --> 40:22.860] know, we don't have it all [40:22.860 --> 40:24.060] together. We never will, [40:24.060 --> 40:26.580] but can we grow? And so [40:26.580 --> 40:28.100] people then are not [40:28.100 --> 40:29.900] necessarily intimidated by [40:29.900 --> 40:31.060] prayer and prayer meetings, [40:31.060 --> 40:33.780] but are encouraged that if [40:33.780 --> 40:35.180] they take these steps, [40:35.180 --> 40:38.020] they'll grow. So I think it [40:38.020 --> 40:39.700] takes some skillful pass [40:39.740 --> 40:41.260] pastoral work to bring [40:41.260 --> 40:42.660] people along in the life of [40:42.660 --> 40:45.100] prayer, both privately and [40:45.460 --> 40:46.780] private worship, and then [40:47.020 --> 40:48.220] corporately in corporate [40:48.220 --> 40:49.740] prayer. You know, there are [40:49.740 --> 40:50.980] a lot of challenges there. [40:51.220 --> 40:53.140] And I'm not saying I've got [40:53.140 --> 40:56.020] it all waxed, but, you [40:56.020 --> 40:57.380] know, we just see if we [40:57.380 --> 40:58.740] can, if I can see a few [40:58.740 --> 40:59.860] more people come and offer [40:59.860 --> 41:00.860] prayer, and I can see [41:00.860 --> 41:01.900] people deepening their [41:01.900 --> 41:03.060] lives. I know we're making [41:03.060 --> 41:05.260] progress. And that may be [41:05.260 --> 41:06.620] God will bless us with a [41:06.620 --> 41:09.140] unity and a great season [41:09.140 --> 41:10.580] of prayer. And we'll see [41:10.580 --> 41:12.340] the power of God again, in [41:12.340 --> 41:13.420] our churches and our [41:13.420 --> 41:14.140] communities. [41:16.620 --> 41:17.620] You know, you just touched [41:17.620 --> 41:18.780] on something I was wanting [41:18.780 --> 41:20.220] us to also talk about as [41:20.220 --> 41:21.820] well. What should be our [41:21.820 --> 41:23.060] expectations? You know, [41:23.100 --> 41:24.380] you just mentioned a few [41:24.380 --> 41:25.260] of those things, you know, [41:25.260 --> 41:26.140] that you have seen, you [41:26.140 --> 41:28.140] know, people going deeper [41:28.140 --> 41:29.900] and such. But, you know, [41:29.900 --> 41:31.180] for anybody who is [41:31.180 --> 41:32.980] entering into and moving [41:32.980 --> 41:35.100] their church into, you [41:35.100 --> 41:36.580] know, really focusing on [41:36.700 --> 41:39.380] prayer, it's good for us, I [41:39.380 --> 41:40.740] think, to have a realistic [41:40.740 --> 41:41.820] expectation of what we're [41:41.820 --> 41:42.940] getting ourselves in for, [41:42.940 --> 41:43.700] you know, because some [41:43.700 --> 41:44.540] people, they think, hey, [41:44.540 --> 41:45.340] you know, if we just get [41:45.340 --> 41:46.340] everybody together to pray [41:46.340 --> 41:47.580] for an hour, all the [41:47.580 --> 41:48.420] problems in church will [41:48.420 --> 41:49.580] be instantly fixed. You [41:49.580 --> 41:50.220] know, the Holy Spirit [41:50.220 --> 41:51.460] come pouring down, you [41:51.460 --> 41:52.340] know, and all that stuff. [41:52.580 --> 41:53.460] But for any of us who [41:53.460 --> 41:54.140] have been in prayer [41:54.140 --> 41:56.180] ministries, we know, um, [41:56.540 --> 41:58.580] God will do stuff, but [41:58.660 --> 41:59.420] we have to have the [41:59.420 --> 42:00.060] kind of right [42:00.060 --> 42:01.540] expectation. What would [42:01.540 --> 42:02.500] you kind of encourage [42:02.500 --> 42:03.220] people in in [42:03.220 --> 42:04.380] expectations as they're [42:04.380 --> 42:05.900] going into really putting [42:05.900 --> 42:06.900] an emphasis on prayer? [42:07.420 --> 42:08.620] Yeah, well, I think any [42:08.620 --> 42:09.780] pastor, first of all, has [42:09.780 --> 42:11.140] to start with himself, [42:11.340 --> 42:13.340] you know, one time I had [42:13.340 --> 42:14.420] a prayer teacher into [42:14.420 --> 42:15.620] our church. Oh, this is [42:15.620 --> 42:16.420] probably back in the [42:16.420 --> 42:18.020] nineties way back. And, [42:18.740 --> 42:20.780] um, you know, I said to [42:20.780 --> 42:22.260] him one day after he was [42:22.260 --> 42:23.100] here for a week of [42:23.100 --> 42:24.980] special meetings, um, you [42:24.980 --> 42:26.100] know, I really love to [42:26.100 --> 42:28.700] see my people go deeper [42:28.860 --> 42:30.020] in the life of prayer. [42:30.100 --> 42:31.020] What do I need to do? [42:31.020 --> 42:32.780] And he said, you have to [42:32.780 --> 42:35.260] go deeper yourself. So, [42:35.420 --> 42:36.900] you know, where am I in [42:36.900 --> 42:38.620] my life? You know, am I [42:38.860 --> 42:41.180] walking the walk and not [42:41.180 --> 42:42.380] just talking the talk. So [42:42.380 --> 42:44.740] it starts with me. What [42:44.740 --> 42:45.940] is my prayer life? What [42:45.940 --> 42:48.100] am I learning? How can I [42:48.100 --> 42:50.060] convey that to others? [42:50.180 --> 42:54.860] And, uh, um, and then the [42:54.860 --> 42:58.420] expectation is growth. And [42:58.460 --> 42:59.860] there has to be teaching, [43:00.700 --> 43:03.260] um, learning, I'm learning [43:03.260 --> 43:04.260] from some of the great [43:04.260 --> 43:05.700] teachers, reading the old [43:05.700 --> 43:08.300] books on prayer, uh, [43:08.340 --> 43:10.140] complying material, having [43:10.140 --> 43:11.820] occasions to teach and [43:11.820 --> 43:13.380] guide the people in the [43:13.380 --> 43:15.620] life of prayer, stressing [43:15.620 --> 43:17.900] the importance of it. Uh, [43:17.900 --> 43:19.620] even my pastoral prayer, [43:19.620 --> 43:21.220] is it perfunctory or is [43:21.220 --> 43:23.540] it sincere? You know, does [43:23.540 --> 43:25.180] it make people just tune [43:25.180 --> 43:26.180] out or does it make [43:26.180 --> 43:27.580] people want to drop [43:27.580 --> 43:28.380] through their knees and [43:28.380 --> 43:30.260] join me in prayer, having [43:30.260 --> 43:31.660] the people kneel, you [43:31.660 --> 43:32.900] know, at times if they're [43:32.900 --> 43:35.740] able, uh, to, you know, [43:35.740 --> 43:37.380] just adopt the posture of [43:37.380 --> 43:40.020] humility, um, anything I [43:40.020 --> 43:43.660] can do to teach people, uh, [43:43.660 --> 43:45.660] and then my expectation is, [43:46.460 --> 43:49.300] um, of course I always [43:49.300 --> 43:50.860] have higher expectations and [43:50.860 --> 43:51.700] what seems to be the [43:51.700 --> 43:53.340] reality, which I think is [43:53.900 --> 43:55.900] but, uh, you know, I want [43:55.900 --> 43:58.220] to see more people engage [43:58.220 --> 44:00.060] the life of prayer. I [44:00.060 --> 44:01.580] want to have more people [44:01.580 --> 44:04.060] with a God to focus in [44:04.060 --> 44:06.700] their prayer lives. I want [44:06.700 --> 44:09.380] to see people growing and [44:09.380 --> 44:11.860] learning the life of prayer. [44:12.420 --> 44:13.660] And then I'm always [44:13.660 --> 44:15.340] holding out hope that, you [44:15.340 --> 44:16.500] know, God will send a [44:16.500 --> 44:18.820] spark and there'll be a [44:18.820 --> 44:20.460] fire in our prayer meeting [44:20.460 --> 44:21.420] and a fire in our [44:21.420 --> 44:24.340] pulpit. And then the fire [44:24.340 --> 44:25.500] will come from heaven and [44:25.500 --> 44:26.660] we'll see an awakening. [44:26.740 --> 44:28.900] That's, uh, I have that [44:28.900 --> 44:30.460] expectation. I don't know [44:30.460 --> 44:31.620] if it's realistic, God [44:31.620 --> 44:34.340] knows, but I, I, I hold out [44:34.340 --> 44:35.940] hope for that. Even while [44:35.940 --> 44:36.900] we're trying to hold the [44:36.900 --> 44:38.300] ground we have, which is [44:38.300 --> 44:39.220] what we do a lot of the [44:39.220 --> 44:42.140] time, but, um, you know, [44:42.140 --> 44:43.460] that's all good. All that, [44:43.500 --> 44:44.260] you know, the nurturing, [44:44.260 --> 44:45.100] the discipling, the [44:45.100 --> 44:46.340] teaching, the preaching, [44:46.340 --> 44:47.140] the worship is all [44:47.140 --> 44:49.580] necessary just to hold the [44:49.580 --> 44:51.780] ground. But then holding [44:51.780 --> 44:52.900] out that hope and that [44:52.900 --> 44:54.100] prayer that God will do [44:54.100 --> 44:55.420] something in a mighty way [44:55.660 --> 44:56.540] at some point for a [44:56.540 --> 45:00.420] season. Amen. Amen. Now, [45:00.420 --> 45:01.500] let me ask you, you know, [45:01.500 --> 45:02.380] because you've been, [45:02.660 --> 45:03.380] you've had such an [45:03.380 --> 45:04.780] emphasis on this in your [45:04.780 --> 45:05.780] life and your Christian [45:05.780 --> 45:06.700] walk personally and [45:06.700 --> 45:07.700] within your ministry for [45:07.700 --> 45:09.540] so many years, uh, what [45:09.540 --> 45:10.820] would you say have been [45:10.820 --> 45:11.780] just a couple of real [45:11.780 --> 45:12.940] highlights that you've [45:12.940 --> 45:14.740] personally witnessed, you [45:14.740 --> 45:17.020] know, from the Lord as [45:17.020 --> 45:17.860] you've been pressing into [45:17.860 --> 45:18.500] this, you know, cause I [45:18.500 --> 45:19.060] think some of our [45:19.060 --> 45:19.860] listeners here, you know, [45:19.860 --> 45:20.260] they're, they're [45:20.260 --> 45:21.020] hearing about all this [45:21.020 --> 45:21.900] stuff and some of these [45:22.140 --> 45:22.820] kind of vague [45:22.820 --> 45:24.020] expectations and things [45:24.020 --> 45:24.820] we should have. But [45:24.820 --> 45:25.540] what would you say are [45:25.540 --> 45:26.700] some real testimonies [45:26.700 --> 45:27.340] that you've personally [45:27.340 --> 45:28.140] seen of the power of [45:28.140 --> 45:28.980] prayer and the lives of [45:28.980 --> 45:29.500] people and even [45:29.500 --> 45:31.020] yourself? Yeah, let me, [45:31.020 --> 45:31.900] let me give you two [45:31.900 --> 45:33.900] examples if I can. Okay. [45:34.220 --> 45:35.860] Uh, when I was a young [45:35.860 --> 45:37.140] pastor and just learning [45:37.140 --> 45:38.860] about all of this, I [45:39.700 --> 45:41.100] took a week assignment [45:41.140 --> 45:43.420] for five summers as they [45:43.420 --> 45:45.380] called it the Dean, the [45:45.380 --> 45:47.220] leader of a youth, uh, [45:47.460 --> 45:50.060] summer camp. And the [45:50.060 --> 45:50.860] first couple of years I [45:50.860 --> 45:52.060] did that, it was kind [45:52.060 --> 45:53.180] of a hard job. You had [45:53.180 --> 45:55.820] 150, 200 kids at the [45:55.820 --> 45:57.740] camp. You had to recruit [45:57.740 --> 45:58.900] a lot of staff to [45:58.900 --> 46:00.060] counsel them and [46:00.460 --> 46:01.860] preachers and worship [46:01.860 --> 46:03.380] leaders and activity [46:03.380 --> 46:04.860] leaders. And it's all [46:04.860 --> 46:07.900] volunteer. And after the [46:07.900 --> 46:08.980] first couple of years, I [46:08.980 --> 46:09.820] kind of got it under [46:09.820 --> 46:10.940] control and kind of been [46:10.940 --> 46:12.260] out of control. The camp [46:12.260 --> 46:13.180] director told me you need [46:13.180 --> 46:13.980] to get this thing under [46:13.980 --> 46:14.980] control. So he got it [46:14.980 --> 46:15.900] under control. It got a [46:15.900 --> 46:16.980] pretty good system, [46:16.980 --> 46:18.300] pretty good organization. [46:18.860 --> 46:19.780] And then one year it [46:19.780 --> 46:22.540] rained. Oh man, summer [46:22.540 --> 46:24.100] camp when it forced [46:24.100 --> 46:25.100] down rain every day, [46:25.100 --> 46:28.100] that's miserable. So I [46:28.820 --> 46:30.020] started a file in [46:30.020 --> 46:32.460] January, the camp coming [46:32.460 --> 46:35.620] up in July. And, uh, I [46:35.620 --> 46:36.860] would make phone calls [46:36.860 --> 46:37.700] back in those days. [46:37.700 --> 46:39.180] There's no email, I'm [46:39.180 --> 46:40.300] making phone calls, [46:40.300 --> 46:41.180] recruiting people. And [46:41.180 --> 46:41.940] every time I opened that [46:41.940 --> 46:43.540] file, I had a big list, [46:43.580 --> 46:46.060] big prayer list on the [46:46.060 --> 46:47.780] inside cover of that file [46:47.820 --> 46:48.620] of the things I was [46:48.620 --> 46:49.660] praying for camp. And [46:49.660 --> 46:50.460] what, right at the top [46:50.460 --> 46:51.340] of the list was no [46:51.340 --> 46:55.300] rain. So, uh, I got in [46:55.300 --> 46:56.300] the habit of really [46:56.300 --> 46:57.380] praying. And there was [46:57.380 --> 46:58.580] a year when I had [46:58.580 --> 47:01.980] unusual, uh, sense of the [47:01.980 --> 47:03.340] burden of God for this [47:03.340 --> 47:05.380] camp. And I was praying [47:05.380 --> 47:06.540] and praying and praying [47:06.540 --> 47:07.900] and getting liberty and [47:08.060 --> 47:09.460] putting the great staff [47:09.460 --> 47:10.500] was coming together for [47:10.500 --> 47:12.300] the summer. And that [47:12.300 --> 47:14.140] summer, I remember we [47:14.140 --> 47:15.380] had a speaker come in [47:15.380 --> 47:16.620] from one of the junior, [47:16.620 --> 47:18.580] uh, uh, uh, uh, let's [47:18.580 --> 47:20.340] see a youth pastor from [47:20.340 --> 47:23.540] the city came in and I [47:23.540 --> 47:25.060] remember something [47:25.060 --> 47:26.340] happened on a Thursday [47:26.340 --> 47:29.900] morning when we walked [47:29.900 --> 47:31.140] into the chapel and they [47:31.140 --> 47:32.100] were all in there. It [47:32.100 --> 47:34.620] was dead quiet. Now, [47:34.620 --> 47:36.980] usually to get the kids [47:36.980 --> 47:38.220] quiet for a chapel [47:38.220 --> 47:39.460] service, you had to kill [47:39.460 --> 47:40.220] a couple of them, you [47:40.220 --> 47:41.580] know, and strangle a [47:41.580 --> 47:42.180] couple of them [47:42.180 --> 47:43.100] publicly. And then they [47:43.100 --> 47:43.820] would finally calm [47:43.820 --> 47:45.220] down, but it was dead [47:45.220 --> 47:47.860] quiet. So I'm saying to [47:47.860 --> 47:49.060] myself, what's going on [47:49.060 --> 47:50.300] here? You know, and [47:50.300 --> 47:51.060] then that night, [47:51.100 --> 47:51.900] Thursday night, I [47:51.900 --> 47:53.260] remember it was the same [47:53.260 --> 47:55.340] thing, dead quiet. And [47:55.340 --> 47:57.460] the speaker was, you [47:57.460 --> 47:58.180] know, speaking some [47:58.180 --> 48:00.300] good, some good Bible [48:00.300 --> 48:01.540] messages and so forth. [48:01.540 --> 48:04.540] And that night, um, when [48:04.540 --> 48:05.820] he got done speaking, [48:05.820 --> 48:07.020] the kids didn't move. [48:07.500 --> 48:08.580] They didn't leave. They [48:08.580 --> 48:10.620] didn't move. And so I [48:10.620 --> 48:11.980] got up to close the [48:11.980 --> 48:14.340] meeting and I just said, [48:15.220 --> 48:16.340] you know, if you want [48:16.340 --> 48:17.740] to accept the Lord [48:17.740 --> 48:18.820] Jesus Christ as your [48:18.820 --> 48:21.460] savior, if you want some [48:21.460 --> 48:22.580] counseling on that, if [48:22.580 --> 48:25.060] you want some counsel on [48:25.100 --> 48:26.500] rededicating your life, [48:27.060 --> 48:28.020] just go out the back [48:28.020 --> 48:29.020] doors of the chapel. I [48:29.020 --> 48:30.020] told all the counselors [48:30.020 --> 48:30.740] to go out there and [48:30.740 --> 48:32.460] meet them. And we had [48:32.460 --> 48:34.060] about 75 kids that [48:34.060 --> 48:35.700] night. And it was just [48:35.700 --> 48:36.980] a tremendous outpouring. [48:36.980 --> 48:37.820] I mean, the counseling [48:37.820 --> 48:38.660] broke down. We had to [48:38.660 --> 48:39.540] do it in groups. I had [48:39.540 --> 48:41.180] to go get the director's [48:41.180 --> 48:42.180] wife out of her house [48:42.180 --> 48:43.060] to help. You know, it [48:43.060 --> 48:43.580] was really an [48:43.580 --> 48:46.980] extraordinary, um, I [48:46.980 --> 48:47.540] had never seen [48:47.540 --> 48:48.420] something like that at [48:48.420 --> 48:49.380] a camp, you know, back [48:49.380 --> 48:50.540] in those days, you'd [48:50.540 --> 48:51.740] see touches of this, [48:51.860 --> 48:53.060] maybe more than we see [48:53.060 --> 48:54.780] it today. But I'm [48:54.780 --> 48:55.620] thankful for something [48:55.620 --> 48:56.420] like what happened at [48:56.420 --> 48:59.260] Asbury last year, where [48:59.260 --> 49:00.300] you had a little touch, [49:00.300 --> 49:02.540] you know, it didn't seem [49:02.540 --> 49:04.180] to explode, like maybe [49:04.180 --> 49:05.820] we hope, but at least it [49:05.820 --> 49:06.900] was a touch. So that [49:06.900 --> 49:08.900] happened. And then in [49:08.900 --> 49:09.900] the church, I'm a [49:09.900 --> 49:11.540] pastor, associate [49:11.540 --> 49:12.380] pastor of now when I [49:12.380 --> 49:13.420] was a senior pastor [49:13.420 --> 49:14.380] around about the year [49:14.420 --> 49:17.180] 2000 or so, we had [49:17.180 --> 49:20.100] special meetings for two [49:20.140 --> 49:23.540] weeks. And at the end, [49:23.700 --> 49:24.500] toward the end of those [49:24.500 --> 49:25.220] meetings, we had a [49:25.220 --> 49:26.820] similar thing happen. [49:26.820 --> 49:27.980] The revivalist who was [49:27.980 --> 49:30.340] here, he preached on, uh, [49:30.340 --> 49:31.340] sort of authentic [49:31.340 --> 49:33.260] Christianity and, and [49:33.260 --> 49:35.620] reconciling wrongs. And [49:35.620 --> 49:38.500] so, um, we had this [49:38.500 --> 49:40.820] thing where he, uh, he [49:40.820 --> 49:41.580] said, you know, you [49:41.580 --> 49:42.540] have to go to people [49:42.540 --> 49:43.340] that you're at odds [49:43.340 --> 49:45.500] with and reconcile. And [49:45.500 --> 49:46.140] he got done with his [49:46.140 --> 49:47.460] message and he said, how [49:47.460 --> 49:48.460] many agree with what I [49:48.460 --> 49:49.340] said? And everybody said, [49:49.340 --> 49:51.180] oh yeah, we agree. And [49:51.180 --> 49:51.740] he said, all right, [49:51.740 --> 49:52.780] everybody stand up. We're [49:52.780 --> 49:53.820] going to do it right now. [49:53.860 --> 49:54.700] You've got a problem with [49:54.700 --> 49:55.940] some of your family [49:58.940 --> 50:01.900] pastors, somebody in the [50:01.900 --> 50:03.420] church, not going to [50:03.420 --> 50:04.500] blame them, but going [50:04.500 --> 50:05.820] to confess your own [50:05.820 --> 50:07.700] wrong and make things [50:07.700 --> 50:08.620] right. We're going to [50:08.620 --> 50:09.860] do that right now. Let's [50:09.860 --> 50:11.020] go, let's go. And I was [50:11.020 --> 50:11.780] sitting in the front [50:11.780 --> 50:12.460] where I was kind of [50:12.460 --> 50:14.300] thinking, okay, this is [50:14.300 --> 50:15.100] different. What's going [50:15.100 --> 50:16.300] to happen? And I [50:16.300 --> 50:17.100] started to hear the [50:17.100 --> 50:18.700] people move behind me [50:19.100 --> 50:22.460] and I started to look and [50:22.460 --> 50:23.380] people were going to [50:23.380 --> 50:25.020] each other, you know, and [50:25.020 --> 50:25.740] then all of a sudden [50:25.740 --> 50:27.300] there was a line in front [50:27.300 --> 50:29.620] of me. And I had about [50:29.620 --> 50:30.980] seven or 10 people in a [50:30.980 --> 50:32.420] line waiting to talk to [50:32.420 --> 50:35.700] me. And most of the [50:35.700 --> 50:36.820] people were confessing [50:36.820 --> 50:37.860] that they had lied to me [50:37.860 --> 50:38.660] during counseling [50:38.660 --> 50:40.660] sessions. And they were, [50:40.700 --> 50:41.860] I saw, and I also saw [50:41.860 --> 50:44.780] one man was kneeled [50:44.780 --> 50:45.980] down in front of his [50:45.980 --> 50:46.900] wife clutching her [50:46.900 --> 50:48.900] ankles. And he was [50:48.900 --> 50:50.260] confessing an adulterous [50:50.260 --> 50:53.580] relationship. And just [50:53.580 --> 50:54.900] God broke into that [50:54.900 --> 50:55.700] meeting. Listen, that [50:55.700 --> 50:56.740] guy got done preaching [50:56.740 --> 50:57.820] at eight o'clock at 10 [50:57.820 --> 50:59.140] 30, we were still there. [50:59.740 --> 51:00.540] You know, we had [51:00.540 --> 51:01.740] revival in the church. [51:01.740 --> 51:04.020] We had a revolt in the [51:04.020 --> 51:05.140] nursery, you know, I [51:05.140 --> 51:05.700] had to go down and [51:05.700 --> 51:07.020] apologize to the nursery [51:07.020 --> 51:07.660] workers who [51:08.020 --> 51:09.220] patiently stayed in there [51:09.220 --> 51:11.300] all the time. But that [51:11.300 --> 51:13.300] led to a season of [51:13.300 --> 51:15.100] cleansing in our church. [51:15.980 --> 51:19.340] That lasted quite a long [51:19.340 --> 51:22.220] time. And I did more [51:22.220 --> 51:23.500] pastoral work in that [51:23.500 --> 51:24.740] next year than I did in [51:24.740 --> 51:25.900] the previous 10 years [51:25.900 --> 51:27.300] that I'd been there. I [51:27.300 --> 51:28.420] got further with people [51:28.420 --> 51:30.460] and we had an influx of [51:30.460 --> 51:31.180] people. We had [51:31.180 --> 51:32.300] tremendous growth [51:32.300 --> 51:33.340] during that season, [51:34.300 --> 51:35.740] people being brought in. [51:35.780 --> 51:37.180] So God broke into our [51:37.180 --> 51:40.700] church in those days. And [51:40.700 --> 51:42.220] so as we pray and as we [51:42.220 --> 51:45.940] seek this, we're more [51:45.940 --> 51:47.740] thankful when God answers [51:47.740 --> 51:48.740] our prayers and we see [51:48.740 --> 51:49.540] people's lives are [51:49.540 --> 51:53.140] changed. Amen. That's an [51:53.140 --> 51:55.180] awesome, awesome story. [51:55.180 --> 51:57.820] And, you know, I was just [51:57.820 --> 51:59.060] thinking about that too. [51:59.060 --> 52:02.700] And it touches on when God [52:02.700 --> 52:03.940] moves, things can be [52:03.940 --> 52:05.220] messy, because you got [52:05.220 --> 52:06.620] to, you know, because [52:06.660 --> 52:07.740] you can't schedule it. [52:07.940 --> 52:09.260] Like you said, he's done [52:09.260 --> 52:10.020] at eight, you're still [52:10.020 --> 52:12.180] going at 10 30 nursery [52:12.180 --> 52:13.180] workers are there, [52:13.300 --> 52:14.100] they're going to need [52:14.100 --> 52:15.100] some encouragement [52:15.100 --> 52:16.020] because, you know, [52:16.500 --> 52:17.300] unfortunately for them, [52:17.340 --> 52:18.340] they're missing out on a [52:18.340 --> 52:19.220] lot of the taste of [52:19.220 --> 52:20.180] what's going on because [52:20.180 --> 52:20.580] they're down there [52:20.580 --> 52:21.460] taking care of the kids. [52:21.700 --> 52:22.500] But we know how [52:22.500 --> 52:23.620] important their work is. [52:23.620 --> 52:24.420] So they need to be [52:24.420 --> 52:25.500] encouraged and we need [52:25.500 --> 52:26.420] to keep pouring into [52:26.420 --> 52:27.380] them and thanking them [52:27.380 --> 52:29.900] for their sacrifices. And [52:29.900 --> 52:32.260] as well, how we can't [52:32.260 --> 52:33.860] just make that happen. [52:33.900 --> 52:34.780] I mean, I think every [52:34.780 --> 52:36.380] pastor would love to [52:36.380 --> 52:37.500] see that happen every [52:37.500 --> 52:38.780] Sunday and you can't [52:38.780 --> 52:40.260] just make it happen. But [52:40.260 --> 52:42.140] the only thing we can [52:42.180 --> 52:44.020] do is we can create an [52:44.020 --> 52:46.100] atmosphere through prayer, [52:46.300 --> 52:47.780] through seeking the Lord, [52:47.780 --> 52:49.220] through being consistent [52:49.220 --> 52:50.460] and going after the heart [52:50.460 --> 52:51.540] of God and asking him to [52:51.540 --> 52:53.380] move in our churches so [52:53.380 --> 52:55.540] that when, you know, the [52:55.540 --> 52:56.980] time comes, it's like [52:57.020 --> 52:57.980] things are primed and [52:57.980 --> 52:58.980] ready. And we don't know [52:58.980 --> 53:00.540] when that'll happen, but [53:00.540 --> 53:01.740] the Lord does. And he [53:01.740 --> 53:03.300] has that and he asked us [53:03.300 --> 53:03.980] though, to just be in [53:03.980 --> 53:04.900] that place of inviting [53:04.900 --> 53:06.100] him in to do that work. [53:06.100 --> 53:07.940] And man, what a, what [53:07.940 --> 53:08.940] a beautiful thing that I [53:08.940 --> 53:11.020] hope all pastors will be [53:11.020 --> 53:11.860] able to experience these [53:11.860 --> 53:12.700] kinds of things in [53:12.700 --> 53:13.900] numerous times in the [53:13.900 --> 53:14.700] lives in their bodies. [53:14.700 --> 53:15.540] You know, the interesting [53:15.540 --> 53:16.180] thing about that [53:16.180 --> 53:17.500] occasion is, you know, we [53:17.500 --> 53:18.860] had a set schedule for [53:18.860 --> 53:20.300] those weeks, so many [53:20.300 --> 53:22.260] days, many Sundays, but [53:22.260 --> 53:23.540] the revivalist was willing [53:23.540 --> 53:25.140] to stay and we extended [53:25.140 --> 53:27.500] it more days, you know, [53:27.580 --> 53:28.660] continue to come out in [53:28.660 --> 53:29.500] the evenings and have [53:29.500 --> 53:30.300] meetings. But then we [53:30.300 --> 53:31.500] bumped into the [53:31.900 --> 53:33.100] Thanksgiving holiday. I [53:33.100 --> 53:34.380] remember, and we finally [53:34.380 --> 53:35.140] had to close those [53:35.140 --> 53:38.220] meetings down. But yeah, [53:38.220 --> 53:40.180] when God works, the [53:40.180 --> 53:40.980] first thing that goes [53:40.980 --> 53:41.780] out the window is your [53:41.780 --> 53:45.780] schedule. Yup. Yeah. You [53:45.780 --> 53:46.740] know, I don't know about [53:46.740 --> 53:47.900] you. I'm a typical guy. I [53:47.900 --> 53:48.940] like schedules. I like [53:48.940 --> 53:49.940] things to start on time. [53:50.140 --> 53:51.140] I like things to end on [53:51.140 --> 53:52.380] time. And I think for [53:52.380 --> 53:53.340] general principle and [53:53.340 --> 53:54.540] practice, you have to [53:54.540 --> 53:56.540] have that, you have, but [53:56.540 --> 53:57.660] you have to have that [53:57.660 --> 53:59.620] heart of Lord thy will be [53:59.620 --> 54:00.420] done. So that when he [54:00.420 --> 54:01.980] decides, Hey, we're going [54:01.980 --> 54:03.340] off script. Now you're [54:03.340 --> 54:04.660] following me that we [54:04.660 --> 54:05.540] just let go of the [54:05.540 --> 54:06.180] range. We're like, all [54:06.180 --> 54:06.900] right, Lord, you just [54:06.900 --> 54:07.900] take this thing and go [54:08.060 --> 54:08.740] because we want to see [54:08.740 --> 54:10.300] you move. Yeah, very [54:10.300 --> 54:11.420] much agree with that. And [54:11.420 --> 54:12.380] I remember that in the [54:12.380 --> 54:14.020] season that followed that [54:14.620 --> 54:15.620] that cleansing we [54:15.620 --> 54:17.900] experienced here, there [54:17.900 --> 54:19.220] were Sundays when we [54:19.220 --> 54:20.540] concluded the meetings and [54:20.540 --> 54:21.300] the people wouldn't [54:21.300 --> 54:23.580] leave. It would sit in [54:23.580 --> 54:24.460] their pew and dead [54:24.460 --> 54:26.140] silence. And so I said, [54:26.140 --> 54:27.220] all right, why don't we [54:27.220 --> 54:28.700] just have a season of [54:28.700 --> 54:29.500] prayer and the people [54:29.500 --> 54:30.340] would get together and [54:30.340 --> 54:31.740] they would pray. And [54:31.740 --> 54:32.900] that's nothing I had on [54:32.900 --> 54:34.860] my plan. You know, I'm [54:34.860 --> 54:36.140] like you, I like to [54:36.300 --> 54:37.300] plan a good meeting, [54:37.300 --> 54:38.540] start on time, finish [54:38.540 --> 54:39.420] on time, meet the [54:39.420 --> 54:41.220] expectations. But there [54:41.220 --> 54:43.380] are those times when God [54:43.380 --> 54:45.420] overrules. And I hope we [54:45.540 --> 54:47.180] as pastors hold out hope [54:47.180 --> 54:47.980] for those kinds of [54:47.980 --> 54:49.700] seasons, because that's [54:49.700 --> 54:50.620] when people really meet [54:50.620 --> 54:52.380] with God. And people [54:52.380 --> 54:53.220] don't need me. They [54:53.220 --> 54:54.140] don't need you, Jack, [54:54.140 --> 54:55.340] they need God. People [54:55.340 --> 54:56.860] need God. I'm just as I [54:56.860 --> 54:57.820] get older now and I [54:57.820 --> 54:58.460] look around their [54:58.460 --> 55:00.420] country, I just, I just [55:00.420 --> 55:01.500] say to myself, look what [55:01.500 --> 55:02.140] we're doing to [55:02.140 --> 55:03.660] ourselves, because we [55:03.660 --> 55:05.380] no longer worship God. [55:06.140 --> 55:07.660] And look at how badly [55:07.660 --> 55:08.780] people need God. How [55:08.780 --> 55:09.660] can they go through the [55:09.660 --> 55:10.540] things they go through [55:10.540 --> 55:12.740] without God. And so, [55:14.340 --> 55:15.300] yeah, we're in the, [55:15.300 --> 55:16.100] we're in the God [55:16.100 --> 55:17.500] business. And so that's [55:17.500 --> 55:18.420] going to take prayer. [55:19.460 --> 55:20.420] Amen. Amen. [55:21.500 --> 55:22.300] You know, Jeff, I'm [55:22.300 --> 55:22.980] looking at the time [55:22.980 --> 55:23.580] here and I said, I'd [55:23.580 --> 55:24.580] like to, you know, [55:24.620 --> 55:25.180] here, we're talking [55:25.180 --> 55:25.820] about schedules. I'd [55:25.820 --> 55:26.500] like to try to keep [55:26.500 --> 55:27.580] things to an hour here. [55:28.380 --> 55:29.860] But I do want to honor [55:29.860 --> 55:31.020] your time. And I [55:31.020 --> 55:32.140] appreciate you so much [55:32.140 --> 55:33.140] for coming in to have [55:33.140 --> 55:34.780] this conversation. Are [55:34.780 --> 55:35.900] there any other final [55:35.900 --> 55:36.780] thoughts that you want [55:36.780 --> 55:38.420] to make sure people [55:38.420 --> 55:39.940] hear, you know, before [55:39.980 --> 55:40.900] we end this show? [55:41.780 --> 55:43.100] I'll just say pastors, [55:43.100 --> 55:44.420] you have a lot of people [55:44.420 --> 55:45.580] who come to your church. [55:45.580 --> 55:46.540] They may be wonderful [55:46.540 --> 55:47.940] people. They may have [55:47.940 --> 55:49.220] been coming a long time, [55:50.260 --> 55:51.900] but they're, they're not [55:51.900 --> 55:52.820] where they should be. [55:53.260 --> 55:55.820] Some have drifted. Some [55:55.820 --> 55:57.140] love the world too much. [55:58.060 --> 55:59.660] Some are having discord [55:59.660 --> 56:00.900] in their family and [56:00.900 --> 56:02.980] their relationships. So [56:02.980 --> 56:03.860] when you're preaching, [56:04.500 --> 56:05.980] think about preaching [56:06.020 --> 56:07.900] through the defenses that [56:07.900 --> 56:09.700] people have erected. I [56:09.700 --> 56:10.940] think that's so critical [56:11.500 --> 56:13.340] that we not be afraid, [56:13.980 --> 56:16.380] you know, touch the nerves [56:16.980 --> 56:18.140] in a loving way. [56:19.820 --> 56:21.180] Because I think we had [56:21.180 --> 56:22.180] so much Bible teaching, [56:22.180 --> 56:23.500] so many resources were [56:23.500 --> 56:25.260] inundated with so much. [56:25.300 --> 56:26.180] But are we getting to [56:26.180 --> 56:27.420] the heart, you know? [56:28.300 --> 56:29.580] And so trying your [56:29.580 --> 56:30.660] preaching to [56:33.380 --> 56:34.220] get past the [56:34.220 --> 56:35.340] defenses of people, [56:35.340 --> 56:36.660] because if you do not, [56:36.700 --> 56:37.340] they're going to get [56:37.340 --> 56:39.660] inculturated and [56:39.820 --> 56:40.900] they're going to get worldly [56:40.900 --> 56:41.740] and they're going to have [56:42.620 --> 56:44.300] ideas and practices that [56:44.300 --> 56:45.580] are not pleasing to God. [56:45.700 --> 56:47.100] And sometimes maybe [56:47.100 --> 56:48.420] even bringing in a special [56:48.420 --> 56:50.380] speaker who, you know, [56:50.380 --> 56:51.500] doesn't know your people [56:51.500 --> 56:52.900] and he will say the things [56:52.900 --> 56:53.940] that step on the toes [56:53.940 --> 56:55.580] that need to be said. [56:56.140 --> 56:57.740] And so preach [56:57.740 --> 56:58.860] through the defenses of [56:58.860 --> 56:59.900] people as we see in [56:59.900 --> 57:00.820] the Old Testament, [57:00.820 --> 57:02.540] you know, the prophets [57:02.540 --> 57:03.380] would come and boy, [57:03.380 --> 57:04.580] they would just put [57:04.580 --> 57:05.380] their finger on the [57:05.380 --> 57:07.140] problem. And somehow [57:07.180 --> 57:08.540] we as pastors, we have [57:08.540 --> 57:09.460] to have a loving [57:09.460 --> 57:10.660] but also a prophetic [57:10.660 --> 57:12.340] ministry if we're [57:12.340 --> 57:13.340] going to see people [57:13.340 --> 57:14.580] respond spiritually. [57:16.980 --> 57:18.020] Amen. Amen. [57:18.060 --> 57:19.060] Yep, that's where there [57:19.060 --> 57:20.380] has to be that emphasis [57:20.380 --> 57:21.380] on the word in preaching. [57:21.940 --> 57:23.220] Well, Jeff, thank you [57:23.220 --> 57:24.540] so much for coming on [57:24.540 --> 57:25.500] here and having this [57:25.500 --> 57:26.460] conversation with me [57:26.460 --> 57:27.620] and for everybody who's listening. [57:28.100 --> 57:29.780] I know for them it had to be [57:29.980 --> 57:31.220] had to have been an encouragement [57:31.220 --> 57:32.500] to them as it was for me. [57:32.500 --> 57:33.860] So once again, brother, [57:34.220 --> 57:35.420] thank you for joining us here. [57:35.540 --> 57:36.380] Thank you, Jack. [57:36.380 --> 57:37.220] It was my pleasure. [57:37.220 --> 57:37.740] Believe me. [57:39.020 --> 57:40.300] This has been an episode [57:40.300 --> 57:41.980] of the Country Chapel podcast, [57:41.980 --> 57:43.300] a ministry of Calvary [57:43.300 --> 57:44.020] Global Network. [57:44.340 --> 57:45.380] Please like and share [57:45.380 --> 57:46.340] this with your friends [57:46.340 --> 57:47.780] in ministry and subscribe [57:47.780 --> 57:48.900] so that you can be notified [57:48.900 --> 57:49.900] whenever we release [57:49.900 --> 57:51.060] any future content. Transcription results written to '/home/forge/transcribe2.sonicengage.com/releases/20240202210301' directory

Dr. Jeff VanGoethem- Equipping Churches for Prayer and Revival

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