Symphonic Preaching, Bad Sermons & Consistent Improvement with Heath Hardesty

[00:00:00] Somebody once told me that when people are coming to church what they're asking the preacher to do is say tell me the story I need to hear again tell me that great story I need to hear again about who Jesus is. Hey welcome to the Expositors Collective Podcast episode 323. I'm your host Mike Neglia and our guest this week is Heath Hardest Heath is the pastor of Valley Community Church in Pleasanton, California

[00:00:30] and you know there is no better person to tell us the story we need to hear again than Heath. He is a lover of poetry and literature and has a phenomenal grasp of the human heart and the English language to excavate and to show and tell with his words what's going on in our lives and the story of life.

[00:00:59] It's the story of the Bible and the world around us so I love talking with Heath and I guarantee you're going to enjoy listening to him.

[00:01:11] As we'll speak about in the end of the interview Heath and the team at Valley Community Church are hosting Expositors Collective in the wonderful town of Pleasanton in the wonderful church of VCC May 24th and 25th.

[00:01:30] You can register for a reduced early bird sign-up of $79 for a very limited time only. The price is going to increase in just about a week's time so make sure that you sign up early and save yourself about 20 bucks.

[00:01:49] And that's a lot if you're bringing a whole team it does add up. Well I do hope that you make the investment, that you make the commitment for yourself and your growth and also for your team somebody that you are mentoring, somebody that you are helping to follow Jesus or raise up to ministry.

[00:02:10] I know that this can be an important step in their own personal growth and their handling of God's words. So once again hope to see you May 24th and 25th in Pleasanton, California.

[00:02:24] So now I'd love for you get a chance to listen and learn from Pastor Heath Artisteep.

[00:02:30] Alright, hey welcome to the Expositors Collective Podcast. Thrilled to have as a second time guest my friend my colleague Heath Hardesteep. Heath welcome back.

[00:02:48] Thanks my good to be here.

[00:02:51] You know last time we were together we were recording in person and the backseat of a moving van and now I'm in my office and you're in yours.

[00:03:00] So the sound quality is better but the camaraderie might be a little bit different.

[00:03:06] Yes, absolutely that was a blast recording about the wild situation.

[00:03:12] Well, so actually yeah I actually really listened to that last night just to make sure that I didn't repeat any of the same questions and you know what most of my usual questions I actually already used up.

[00:03:25] So if people want to hear about your first sermon they could go back it'll be a link in the description and so I actually want to change things up a bit and I want to ask about your worst sermon so not your first but your worst.

[00:03:39] Yes, well thank you for that question.

[00:03:44] It's actually a little bit hard to answer because it's been about 15 years of preaching a few times each week so that means I've had a lot of stinkers out there so.

[00:03:56] It's kind of hard to remember which one is my worst one.

[00:03:59] So that's what I would say is that there's certainly a season where I think I had some worst ones and that's because it was a season of deep fatigue and emotional unhealth and so I was preaching out of that fatigue and emotional unhealth.

[00:04:17] So there's a lot going on structurally at the church so there was some unsoundness in the structure and then there was also unsoundness in my own soul as I was working through things so that had me actually preaching out of some some fatigue and unhealth and so there's probably a lot of.

[00:04:37] And I was reading it and I read it energy or anxiety that was bleeding through those there's that but there is one story that that comes to mind.

[00:04:47] To one one Sunday after the first service a woman came up who hadn't seen in a little bit and she, she gave me a compliment on that that morning sermon and said hey that was that was a great sermon very unlike your Christmas sermon the worst sermon I ever heard in my life.

[00:05:06] And it ruined Christmas for me and my family.

[00:05:09] Oh yeah, I mean boom it was very very blunt and so she was unabashed in saying worst sermon I ever heard multiple times in the conversation and so it took me a back you know and some trying to process it there and I asked her what why was it the worst sermon how did it ruin your Christmas and

[00:05:33] the law in short of it was it was a sermon where I used this idea of the curse Jesus breaking the curse you know as far as the curses found from joy to the world that layer of course far as the

[00:05:45] and I was.

[00:05:47] Yeah exact his blessings will flow as far as the curses found and and the theme that big lead idea that was running through it was was Jesus breaks the curse he pushes back that curse in his coming you know the curses being pushed back so

[00:06:01] so I use the phrase a Mary uncursing instead of Mary Christmas and she took quite exception to it and for some reason it that ruined her their Christmas but in that moment hearing that was the worst sermon I ever heard blatantly off as somebody's lips was was a very visceral experience you know very bodily experience reacting to that and is sitting in the gut so

[00:06:27] yeah I had to process that and works through a ruining somebody's Christmas yeah sure I hope for her sake in her family say there's a bit of hyperbole in that I can't imagine

[00:06:43] yeah slicing into the Christmas turkey the next day and passing it around and like do you want some speed heart like it's

[00:06:51] a lot of tears shadow that's the joy out of this event okay well so okay so so again you kind of learned retroactively about one from even even months back

[00:07:03] yeah in those times when you have yeah preach to dead like what's kind of the recovery process for you like like from what I know you're pretty like dialed in like to yourself and to like your inner life

[00:07:19] and your like emotional health I bet you've like gone through some some journeys and this could help the heroes not that I ever preached about sermon but maybe other people have

[00:07:29] how do you kind of like recover what's like a Sunday afternoon that was a stinker how do I move on yeah well usually I drive away from the church deep in prayer or complaint going what did I just do you know what happens

[00:07:45] and and then trying to get quickly to the well Lord would you do something with that you know because he can work he does work through terrible sermons an articulate sermons you know so so yeah I offer that back and say what would you do something wonderful

[00:08:07] with that something I could never do myself so there's that aspect but but I really do have to work through it like physically for for me is the way I'm wired I'm pretty tired after I preach it's this full full body endeavor and so I need I need to get into my body I need to take a walk

[00:08:27] you know I need to move and not just sit there and brood and contemplate so so taking a walk going going hiking with with my wife the kids the family

[00:08:39] and it's the same for me the next day Monday is my recovery day I don't go into the office and have a bunch of meetings I don't have much to offer people that next day so I spend a lot of day a lot of that next day reading writing praying taking an early morning long long walk go

[00:09:00] go rocking with my backpack put some weight in it and think and pray that that helps my body recover and I've realized that if I just sit and go internal and don't get much movement after that sermon that day or the next I feel yeah I just feel too internal to too heavy

[00:09:22] okay well yeah thank you thank you for that yeah it interesting yeah because again it's your like I said like I think if you have somebody who's very in tune with like your inner your inner self and

[00:09:35] you use your outer self you make your outer self move around to get that physical exercise to move I have to link the two yeah I have to link the two I feel like I think best when I'm walking so yeah I'll take a long walk and I'll think and I'll pray and I'll process I like to do processing of what happened that week but then I also like to start thinking forward and start praying through the next day

[00:10:05] Sunday as well so I don't spend too long just rehashing everything there was a season where I did I'd rehash everything almost obsessively and then I found that that wasn't I'd had diminishing returns it wasn't as healthy as once that it was okay yeah well thanks for that and again just so the listeners know like I'm asking about your worst sermon because like you are also like insufferably good

[00:10:29] I think like you are incredibly precise and good preacher so I'm not trying to make you feel bad I'm just confidence that you've got the the depths because here's thing guess what I was doing this morning I was going for a walk this morning

[00:10:43] morning and I was listening I was like being listening to Heath Hardest East Armenians this morning and and they were all they were just all good they're all so precise in fact I have my notebook here there's kind of a quote that you said that I'd like so much yeah you were just talking about how there is just so much buried treasure that you want to excavate together

[00:11:07] and I think that was a great way kind of glimpse into what went on behind the scenes in your sermon preprotein but then actually you really you're really meant to you were just like enjoying the text in front of people you were enjoying Jesus in front of people

[00:11:24] and just kind of like showing again and again like here's some more treasure that I found and it was presented not in a haphazard way but very thoughtful way anyway all to say is I think you're good preacher mate and so thanks for talking to us about you know the sermons aren't as good as as the other ones well you're welcome it's very humbling

[00:11:46] and then yeah so the current series and I listen to some of this the current series you've been going through the the feasts of Israel which is it's actually not something that I have seen many contemporary churches devote a Sunday serious to

[00:12:04] I'm wondering if you can kind of like talk us to the process of like picking that serious and then what does that preparation and delivery look like for you.

[00:12:14] Yeah yeah thank you for asking you thank you for for listening to those as as well so each each year if you talk about the diet of the pulp it sort of speak we we really want an interwee of old testament and new testament and the reason behind that is I really want people to do that

[00:12:34] and I really want people to see the deep integration of Scripture that unify narratives how it how it does point us to Jesus. So that plus the fact that this year we were thinking thematically for the whole year about about joy we're heading into political season we're in political season polarize season a broken difficult season

[00:12:56] we wanted to look at our joy in the Lord and in Isaiah chapter 12 says with joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation with joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation and so linking these together the idea for this feast series was to look at these sacred rhythms that that God has given us that that were to shape the imagination

[00:13:19] and the inhabitation of the way people inhabited this world in order to reveal who he was and and the upshot in game of it all was was joy was rejoicing the last feast is the feast of tabernacles or Sukkot which is a week long feast and celebration enjoy rejoicing.

[00:13:38] So that's that's where the series came from was linking old testament linking new testament pointing towards joy and basically it's all Leviticus 23 so when I introduced a series hey we're going to be in Leviticus 23 you know you can imagine there was a cheer you know yeah of course and people kind of looked concerned at me and but it's been a wonderful wonderful journey I do believe it surprised a lot of people.

[00:14:08] Yeah and you mentioned before we hit records about like the various like books or resources that you found on on the feast of a visual what's the kind of a common motif of the cover art of many of the ones that you found.

[00:14:23] Oh there's a lot of cringe worthy cover art there's a lot of good material out there when it comes to content but there's also a lot of.

[00:14:35] I don't know material that that doesn't expose it the scripture well and and so it just does a lot of guessing a random thinking about what's going to happen in the future all those kind of things but in the cover art is just like you have some terrible 80s you know cover art.

[00:14:53] You got the Rams horns in this apocalyptic like hand drawn stuff that just looks really really bad so you know it's easy to do a series like this in a kind of cheesy way yeah and so my hope was that it would just point us to Jesus and I really profound and beautiful way.

[00:15:13] Yeah and it seems that you've been yet shepherding and leading valley community church into a joy filled understanding of yeah those inter connectivities and how it all is leading towards towards Jesus we're recording this right up to Easter and so you've organized it so that we're going to go right up until Passover on what what what what yeah on Palm Sunday really Passover and then Resurrection Sunday following yeah.

[00:15:43] Yeah exactly yeah the sermon was the series was so timed that it would end on Palm Sunday so the C cycle it's it's one plus seven in other words there's the Sabbath and then the seven feasts and the the seven feasts begin with with Passover so we started it and then what basically the Sabbath and then Passover right and now we're ending it by going into Passover week when Jesus comes into Jerusalem by way the triangle entrance.

[00:16:13] So it's a very interesting story and then comes in and fulfills the feasts starts to fulfill that annual cycle of feasts yeah yeah yeah and then that's awesome would you would you recommend this like you know there's got to be and you mentioned this kind of earlier on like that you you love to interweave the Old Testament and the New Testament I guess like could you have done this maybe 14 years ago is this sort of thing that you kind of need a bit of experience or

[00:16:42] a huge familiarity with Old Testament and New Testament in order to do this should this be somebody's first sermon series.

[00:16:49] Well I'm glad it wasn't my first sermon series because it does take a lot of back and forth and yet integrating right so you're just not all over the map it's it's finding a way to bring together these these various pieces so for instance this fast week with the feast of tabernacles we were in

[00:17:08] the end of the year but it is 23 but then we moved to john seven and eight to show how Jesus fulfills that how he flushes that out how he's a substance of those feasts and that I think I wouldn't have been able to do that 14 years ago I mean 14 years ago I would have thought I would have been able to do it but looking back now I think I just need a more time meditating on a scripture and seeing the organic connection between the so didn't feel artificial or or forest yeah.

[00:17:37] Yeah yeah okay well kind of yeah thank you kind of moving on from there when I come back to something that you said a few moments ago as you were describing that you know horrendous Christmas sermon that ruins as you as the Grinch you just stole Christmas from that poor family that's right that's right you you mentioned you said that the lead idea of that message was you know far as the curses found.

[00:18:06] And he comes to make his blessings for the part of the curse you know and so you you talked about kind of summarized your whole sermon which would have been you know 30 40 minutes but you summarized it with like a lead idea.

[00:18:18] Yeah could you kind of explain like what do you mean when you say lead idea?

[00:18:25] Yeah the lead idea is that it's that refrain it's that chorus that is kind of sung throughout the sermon I guess you could call it the big idea.

[00:18:39] You know when you're preaching and it's this auditory format you can't throw out all these different things and expect you know a listener just to grab onto it all and so the idea of having a lead lead theme or lead idea is simply saying here's something that I really want for for you to take into your head and your heart.

[00:19:04] So so it is like the course it's it's the refrain it's what you're hoping people would walk away remembering thinking upon dwelling upon so that's that's simply the lead ideas what someone would call a big idea.

[00:19:18] The way I think of sermons there there's what you could call a through line and an arc and that through line would be the main idea it's the thing that you're repeating hitting on over and over again maybe in different ways but it's the cohesive core to that sermon and that comes from the text right that's why it's.

[00:19:37] It's it's this is an expositional art it come it's bounded by it's framed by it's born out of that text and so that key idea comes from the text but then that runs through the sermon that's a through line but then there's also what I would call the arc so the arc in the through line and the arc would be.

[00:19:55] The the overall story of redemption right the grand story of redemption that God is writing what we read in the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation and it's linking those two see the through line running through and then the arc going up and around.

[00:20:10] And it's connecting that through line or whatever that message is to this grand story of.

[00:20:16] Of redemption that that God has been writing and then linking that through line and arc kind of like you call those hyper links or just just lines of connection and that to me what that does is it creates a consistency in the sermon and it links that portion of scripture that bit of context into the larger context and.

[00:20:38] And by nature creates more a narrative sermon where you're telling again the great story and somebody once told me.

[00:20:46] That when people are coming to church what they're asking the preacher to do is say tell me the story I need to hear again tell me that great story I need to hear again about who Jesus is yeah so it's a way of linking all of that in an integrated fashion that's not overwhelming that's not distracted that's not too much for the here to bear.

[00:21:06] Yeah and so this even this like I've heard people describe it as a melodic line that's a phrase that's our friends proclamation trust they use that language and.

[00:21:19] So is this a certain a summary statement that you would come back to again and again in a Sunday sermon would you would you have a phrase that you say more than one time is that what you're talking about.

[00:21:32] It can be absolutely it doesn't always have to be the same exact phrasing okay sometimes it's saying it very similar but with a slight twist but it's around the same core.

[00:21:46] But yeah that often you're repeating that and you might repeat it in just a subtly different way but yeah it is a refrain that carries to where they go oh there it is again right there it is again by the third or fourth time they're realizing like oh he's coming back to this thing.

[00:22:01] Yes and you mentioned a few minutes ago that that preaching is a it's an auditory exercise is like I know that you also you you dabble in writing we'll talk about that later on but when you are preaching to a bunch of listeners does that change where you communicate then when you're writing to a bunch of readers.

[00:22:22] Yes yeah I think the medium really really matters I think there you know there's a danger but also beauty in in manuscripting because I write differently.

[00:22:35] Because I write differently then I speak they are similar but there's some differences and so I manuscript but that's to get it in me and to help me along I don't read it.

[00:22:48] So I've been trying to write those manuscripts in what I would consider more of my preaching voice than just my writing voice you know writing generally is a more long form art and you can be a little more nuanced and certain things.

[00:23:02] Yeah but when it's the auditory form you just have to be aware that that is a different formats and yeah so absolutely it's a different format and so when I preach it's going to sound a little bit different than my first draft of writing because I have to translate from the written page to flesh and blood people who are in the room.

[00:23:24] Yeah yeah and with the written page you can even have like a tightly woven layers of arguments in one paragraph and if someone doesn't get it they can just look at it a little bit longer they could go back and read it again and then kind of untangle it.

[00:23:41] With preaching it's like if you lose somebody you lose them you know and so for me I think that's why it's important to come back to this lead idea or to repeat yourself not to the point of patronizing but to kind of realize people can check out for a second or a minute or five minutes

[00:24:00] and you want to give on ramps to like oh yeah remember we're talking about this today or you know John chapter eight is about this here's the big idea of John chapter eight here's why we're talking about this and then a few minutes later and this is why and then you lead back to that mean idea.

[00:24:15] Yeah yeah you come back to a tonal grounding or a sense of familiarity to them but then it's you tweak it just a little bit each time and there's something different so that there's that the lean in it's like oh there it is again but there's a different facet of it right it's like turning the same diamond just a little bit to catch another facet.

[00:24:35] Yeah yeah you know I've heard you you reference like symphonic preaching what what what is symphonic preaching have to have to do with this.

[00:24:45] Yeah yeah well thanks I'd love to nerd out on this for a little bit well so you've come literally this is the right audience please don't hold anything back you're talking to one nerd right now.

[00:24:57] I love this idea so obviously a symphony is composed of many layers of many many instruments a lot of different timbers a lot of different sounds it's not just one instrument singing one doing one line over and over and over again so there is a complexity but there's a unity to something that's symphonic about that word symphonic you means you know these sounds are in agreement with one another.

[00:25:24] And so you can you have a motif right you have a theme for for the song of the piece that is being played yet there's all these different instruments that that work in accord that work in harmony and that gives it.

[00:25:37] That gives it a three dimensionality or because there's time involved you know like a four dimensionality and a depth.

[00:25:43] And so people can hear the same piece and hear the same melody and catch the same themes but but the various components can catch people in their differences in different ways so somebody might tune into the double bass somebody might tune into the tempo or the strings yet there's a unity to it.

[00:26:04] And so it creates this beautiful depth that's not flat it's multi-dimensional and I think you can have stermans that have a lead line or that that through lines there's a unity to it yet there is this depth it doesn't have to be flat right yeah another way I like to describe this to change the metaphor is iridescence.

[00:26:27] Because iridescence so if you look at something that's iridescent like a hummingbird for instance right it flashes with fire when it changes angle.

[00:26:35] And that's because and I'm not a scientist but i'll do my best that's because iridescence is born out of what's called structural color rather than pigment color most things are pigment color in other words it absorbs the colors of the spectrum and reflects one one color right so.

[00:26:55] Structural colors different structural color is born out of the the structure or multiple layers within hummingbirds wing or the back of a beetle or layers in an oil slick or in an opal there's layers in there and what happens is light comes in and hits these different layers they're called micro layers or nano layers.

[00:27:19] And then the angle of incidents of light bounces off and so the color changes based upon.

[00:27:27] The viewers position and the angle of light that's why we have a lot of hummingbirds in our backyard as soon as the other day and there was this hummingbird at the theater and he look you know almost grayish just kind of this dark dark bird and then in an instance.

[00:27:44] It turned the bird turned and he flashed fire like it was now suddenly it was ruby-throated and the wings were turquoise and emerald and just like flash like the spectral fire fire and then he was off flew away right why because of the structural color.

[00:28:02] The point is that there's layers that there's layers that creates this this color so i'm not talking about some kind of subjective truth or anything what i'm talking about is layers that that reveal the beauty of this living lights and I think sermons can have a similar unity.

[00:28:22] Yet structural complexity that the spirit can catch light with with different people and I think i'm fascinated with that idea the danger is it could become too overloaded and distracted and muddied and so you really got to keep that through line while you have that that arc of the story and and the complex pieces pieces working together.

[00:28:44] Yeah hey hey think that's in in thrawling and lean back to be like wow I understand many of those words but i've never put them in such a way so yeah so there's a danger in that like yeah like i can think of a danger of a preacher like yourself just like being in raptured with this type of you know these spectral layers.

[00:29:10] Yeah one one danger is that you know how is this going to help the the gym coach who gets invited to church and hasn't been to church since his confirmation when he was 12 and then this is this is like a bit like overstimulating or overwhelming.

[00:29:24] Yeah yeah yeah yeah so that that's what actually excites me a lot about it isn't so instead of it being an overly like academic and abstract kind of saying.

[00:29:37] It creates a lot of access points for people so one the ways I try to think about it and these i don't necessarily like the names of these categories but you have people who are going to be there.

[00:29:47] At least we do in our context who are hearing these things for the first they just they haven't heard any of these scriptures yeah so those people who are there for the first time then you have people who are hearing this material and as vaguely familiar because they have some some kind of church background or a little bit of scriptural background.

[00:30:05] Then you have those who are more followers of Jesus who who they've been ingesting this kind of stuff for a long time but then you have those who I don't know again I don't like the category but like our fanatics they're like the scripture nerds you know they're the people who want to sit down and be like yeah I've watched all the Bible project videos and with with my Amazon gift cards for Christmas I buy commentaries and I'm not a pastor right so you have all of those.

[00:30:32] All of those people there and if it is symphonic in a sense or if there is this iridescence it means that you're you're putting in various subtle Easter eggs or places of connection for the person who is hearing us for the first time whether it's a simple star wars reference or Lord of the rings connect or with something that's happening and culture currently or it's a subtle a subtle Easter egg to something in.

[00:31:02] In Genesis Genesis one or in Joshua two or whatever it is there's these subtle references where that that sonatic or that Bible nerd will go oh that was a that was a connect here and then that creates the lean lean in so that's what excites me about it is it's not just for some kind of like high gluten nose bleed theological entry it's it's for real practical connection.

[00:31:32] And making that that relationship happen with with people at and these different places of engagement.

[00:31:39] Yeah thank you for that that pushback yeah that that if if done right yeah this this multiplies the entry points yeah yeah and then it if done wrong it just like it just closes door after door after door after door you know it just can you indicate he was in word insiders club and you're on the outside and.

[00:32:01] This is not for you that's right and yeah and so yeah.

[00:32:08] You kind of last question on this I want to scratch a little bit deeper so like how do you make sure that you're that you're doing that um you can mention yeah Star Wars references or the rings or whatever is that like are you thinking of those because it's kind of the door way into the.

[00:32:25] The ordinary person's life or thinking point rather than like oh this verse in the viticus guess what guys it actually connects with the verse in numbers as well you're not going to believe this and then there's a an echo of the paradigm of exodus 19 with the tripartite mountain you know.

[00:32:42] So are you using those other references to help ordinary people.

[00:32:47] Yeah well I guess so I think what is really helpful is highlighting again that deep integration nor cohesiveness of scripture because a lot of people in my experience come in and think well you know the scriptures this.

[00:33:05] You know there's a book with these saying and you know there's wise things in there may be but they don't see it in this cohesive way and when when you begin to see the brilliance of of the design and that that Genesis has something very much to do with John.

[00:33:25] Chapter whatever yeah you know or Leviticus chapter 23 is deeply woven with what Jesus is saying in john seven and and eight.

[00:33:37] It creates like a literary apologetic or an intentional apologetic like oh wait a minute maybe this is something different than I thought.

[00:33:47] And maybe there is a god who's orchestrating these things because they're these things fit these pieces fit and that does something to somebody who's listening versus just like.

[00:34:00] It's all scattered in these broken pieces and then here's a little piece to look at you're bringing it together and there's something like if you watch a mystery movie or you watch just a really well done.

[00:34:10] Film and at the end you see how all these threads come together and there's that moment you go this was intentionally beautifully done and it knows you.

[00:34:22] There's something similar that happens when people see the pieces of scripture come together and a portrait of Christ painted yeah yeah I am.

[00:34:31] You know currently kind of just like kind of binging or working my way back through like a lot of Dennis Villaniv Villanue his films you know because I saw dune of course like everybody else that I'm like this guy's great right and this I can tell tell a story.

[00:34:50] And so I've been yeah like watching these films of his that are like so incredibly thoughtful you know and they they stand multiple reviews because there is planning and intentionality in there.

[00:35:07] And so of course couldn't and people notice that people appreciate that of course why wouldn't they to see that this like historic influential kind of ancient holy book out there is actually like so masterfully crafted that yeah that can even be its own entry point itself.

[00:35:26] Yeah, absolutely and part of that interwee or the integration is not just how the story integrates but then how that.

[00:35:34] Interweezer integrates with their with their life right now that's where the application piece becomes really important doesn't just stay some some floaty idea but but that they see how it intersects with with their experience of the world and so all of this.

[00:35:53] becomes a holistic.

[00:35:56] Experience now that can only happen by the power of the spirit yes i'm bringing those pieces together I love the the art so to go to iridescence if you create these layers great find but I mean he sparks the light and the heat of it all without the spirit doing that somebody could.

[00:36:13] Here the best you know well crafted sermon ever and walk away go on like yeah I got nothing you know and so it's all dependent upon him but on our side that working towards.

[00:36:26] Being responsible with these these layers and and honoring the scripture honoring the people yeah he does with what he will yeah.

[00:36:34] Yeah you just mention yeah there's things that only God can do but then you said but on our side there's there's work and so yeah so he the various times that like I've overlapped with you it's always been at moments of like.

[00:36:49] What's the word like self improvements or like you know like I like you are always trying to get better at stuff you know I met you first in Portland at a western seminary thing.

[00:37:02] You're a you're an adult you're a pastor of an established church you don't need to be engaged in like ongoing education but but you are and then also I met you again in Vermont like this like art of teaching event like you're good you're a good preacher when you showed up you didn't need to be there but I see this kind of like obsessiveness in you in a healthy way.

[00:37:25] Towards towards improvement I guess kind of my question is like what what makes you this way why why are you like you're good enough why are you wanting to kind of learn more and proven these things what is this kind of like drive towards improvement or stewardship we could say.

[00:37:41] Well to be honest there's there's probably broken bits of me out of family of origin stuff it's still trying to prove myself and I'm still trying to fight those.

[00:37:50] Like those shadow sides but me too why do you think I'm there to.

[00:37:56] You know it's like you know if I could just preach this better than I will suddenly find security or I will find worth her meaning so so there is some some family of origin shadow stuff there that the Lord has been revealing over the years but in God's grace he has used those things to also.

[00:38:16] Draw me into wanting to learn and and redeem those I guess for me like I the scriptures are our wild wonderful deep and amazing the world is full of grandeur you know I love

[00:38:31] Gerard Manning Hopkins you know who says the world is charged with the grandeur of God I just feel like I know like this much in a tiny little bit of this huge wide world so I just have a lot of

[00:38:43] wonderings about things and then that leads to wanting to share those wonders for me I love the I love sharing good news.

[00:38:53] I love pointing at something and saying look at that that's amazing look how beautiful that is so I just want to I want to learn and I'm trying to find ways to better communicate those things because sometimes I feel stuck in my head.

[00:39:06] I don't connect the dots for people on certain things and I want to be able to do that that better.

[00:39:12] Yeah.

[00:39:12] You'd say yeah.

[00:39:13] Yeah, okay.

[00:39:14] Well, so like it was specifically on these events or these workshops that you've but you've gone to and then you're always like you

[00:39:23] always dragon dragon staff along as well too like bringing people along to these types of events so that they can also see and grow and improve.

[00:39:32] Yeah, how many like preaching training workshops have you have you been to.

[00:39:37] Oh goodness.

[00:39:39] A number in the last couple years it's primarily been the last couple of years I for a long time it was working here on the church and that was good and necessary but there came a season where it's like I need to step out and do a lot more

[00:39:57] a lot more learning for myself and with the team so we started tending a number of conferences training things you mentioned our teaching.

[00:40:08] We've done a number of those with John Tyson, John Mark Comer, Charlie Dates and others.

[00:40:14] Those are super helpful a lot of cool friendships born out of those and the team has benefited from that so the teams gone to a number of those some of those have taken just a

[00:40:26] member of the team or two so we can learn together and that's been a huge piece of it is is learning together learning in community.

[00:40:35] So yeah, I learned a lot of last couple of years and will probably be going to a couple more of these things over the next few years.

[00:40:42] Yeah, and but on May 24th and 25th he you don't have to go anywhere because we're coming to you.

[00:40:52] The expositors collective were really excited that we get to what's your hostiness for a two day preachers training event that's taking place in Valley Community Church.

[00:41:04] So thrilled to be doing that like what it seems to me it seems only natural that that you who have traveled for these things and then even

[00:41:14] saw the benefit of people on your team to come along to these things that we get to come and bless the local community and

[00:41:22] And yeah, so thank you looking forward to this.

[00:41:26] Yeah, we are thrilled. Thank you for partnering with us and this man.

[00:41:31] And so you are going to be talking on Friday night the 24th on the importance of of homologics like speaking and communicating well.

[00:41:41] I know that a lot of time is between now and then you're going to write but like what are your kind of thoughts on communication or what are the sort of things that you might be talking to us about this is total first draft.

[00:41:55] But what are the sort of things that you would you'd like us to know about homologics.

[00:42:01] Well, maybe a couple of things that we've already mentioned some of these ideas on that lead line or that through line and the arc so the structure.

[00:42:11] Bringing a unity and an integration to a message but having some of these various layers also being faithful to the text and being faithful to the people so letting that message letting that sermon be born out of that that text.

[00:42:31] So a couple those are a couple of the pieces, maybe some of the the technicalities or the logistics so to speak the tools of prepping that message throughout the week in order to make sure that that message is being born out of the text and you're not just creating something that you want to create but something that.

[00:42:48] That God wants to reveal through you to to his people so those are a couple of the first draft ideas yeah that I have that i'm excited to dig into with you all.

[00:43:00] Well i'm looking forward to it and like i mentioned earlier i've seen you in Portland we've hung out in Vermont and i'm really excited to see you in your home turf of Pleasanton, California hey what's what's there to do in Pleasanton.

[00:43:13] Well there's a good amount to do around the whole Bay area here right because we are in the east Bay so San Jose Silicon Valley just south of us 40 40 minutes less here we have you know the city and and then there's Oakland so there's a lot of really good restaurants there's there's good concert venues around man we have ocean one way and mountains the other so there's it's a beautiful area.

[00:43:44] So yeah there's there is a lot to do around here now Pleasanton itself like downtown's awesome but it's not like it's not like a nightlife kind of town it's a it's a quiet beautiful suburban community yeah I don't think sounds like it's name Pleasanton yeah it's a pleasant town isn't isn't there that amazing like soft serve ice cream place so that's still there.

[00:44:06] Whoa yeah yeah the dairy and the like dairy yeah it's right around the corner from inklings yeah awesome so yeah come for investing in your teaching and preaching skills stay for the ice cream then go to the mountains slash oceans afterwards but yeah I encourage the people that are listening yeah to come along to this to bring your team to make a weekend out of it it's going to be something that everybody from from the experience from the frequent.

[00:44:37] Workshop attendee such as heath himself to the novice to the person who's never taught the Bible before but it's kind of wondering how could I grow as a student or even as a communicator of God's word there's there's something for for everybody.

[00:44:52] And yeah final final question in all of this we mentioned the difference between like oral preaching communication and then and then writing so yeah he thought I mean currently there's

[00:45:06] a bit of a bit in war going on right now between couple different publishers for your debut book you want to tell us a little bit about that maybe by time this gets released we'll know who wins the bidding war but what's the book going to be about.

[00:45:24] Yeah yeah thanks for asking it's it's a bit it's a bit surreal so we're working right now we're in process with a number of wonderful publishers to see where this book will be housed it's so it's a book that you can say is is the intersection are the merger of biblical theology and spiritual formation.

[00:45:49] It's about following Jesus a apprenticeship to Jesus the origin the essence and the aim of the apprenticeship seeing a apprenticeship in a storied integrated view you're hearing a number of these words repeated throughout this interview and cohesion and so it's.

[00:46:06] It is this project of bringing these things together and and how Christ holds all of these things together in a brilliant fashion because we all struggle with.

[00:46:16] With pieces of existence you know how how do these pieces come together to form true true meaning and I have this deep passion for seeing spiritual formation and biblical theology.

[00:46:29] I'm by biblical theology I don't just mean studying the Bible but the understanding of how it all flows together and it's designed like spiritual formation biblical theology merging together to reshape the imaginations of gods people and then to reshape our habits so it's an integrated project.

[00:46:50] It'll probably be a year before it sees full light but it's something I've been teaching to for for a long time we have a class here at the church that I teach on it and it is exciting and humbling to to realize that this is going to be a book so looking forward to finishing it the portion of us done but there's still some work to go.

[00:47:17] Yeah well thrilled for you genuinely really happy for you and you know we'll let the listeners know once it's out and and where to find it but I know where to find you I'll find you in Pleasanton May 24th and 25th looking forward to yeah spending time with you in person again but in your hometown.

[00:47:38] Can't wait my friend awesome and for the listeners of this show I hope that this conversation and our training events and all that we do at expositors collective help you to grow in your personal study and public proclamation of God's word.

[00:47:52] Thanks again he.

[00:47:54] Well hey thank you so much for listening all the way to the end I really enjoy every conversation I've ever had with heath and especially this one hope you enjoyed listening along well his book remains unsigned but there are some big name publishers that really wants to get this guy's work out there so I'll be sure to keep you guys abreast of all the latest developments with this.

[00:48:24] I'll be back soon to be published book from heath artisty well I'm looking forward to getting ice cream in Pleasanton I'm looking forward to growing in my personal study and public proclamation of God's word in Pleasanton and I would love to see you there so once again visit our website expositors collective.com for expositors.co goes to this same place and get that early bird registration while you still can.

[00:48:51] I'll see you next Tuesday for the next episode of the expositors collective podcast.

[00:48:56] This podcast is a part of CG and media a podcast network that points to Christ we are supported by listeners like you to help us create more great shows visit cgmedia.org slash support.

[00:49:07] Hey everyone he's hard to see here past or valley community church in Pleasanton California I want to invite you to come out on May 24th and 25th to the expositors collective interactive training event here in the beautiful.

[00:49:21] They area this will help you grow in your personal study and the public proclamation of God's word this will be a joyful time where we learn new skills and we do it in community all for the glory of God so bring your team come on out it'll be a powerful time learning how to preach God's word and enjoyful and powerful way we hope to see you then.

[00:49:51] Thank you.