Topical Sermons, Hot Topics and Raising Up New Expositors

[00:00:00] The best preaching is defined by what's on the cutting room floor.

[00:00:04] It's what you chose not to say because it does not serve the transformative point.

[00:00:10] It does not serve the point of the text.

[00:00:13] And if we use that material just to show that we know it,

[00:00:18] to impress people, to feel or any other reason,

[00:00:22] then stop! I would much rather have a shorter sermon

[00:00:27] that keeps me on point.

[00:00:29] Hey, welcome to the Expositors Collective Podcast, episode 327.

[00:00:34] I'm your host, Mike Neglia.

[00:00:36] The voice that you heard is one of the panelists

[00:00:40] that you're going to be learning from over the course of the next 40 minutes.

[00:00:44] Dr. Jim Wilson.

[00:00:46] This was recorded back in 2023 in Temecula, California

[00:00:52] at one of our recent preacher training events.

[00:00:56] And so Jim is joined on the panel by Wesley Towne,

[00:01:00] Randall Tonini, Brian Bell, and then also Ted Leavenworth.

[00:01:05] I love panel discussions.

[00:01:07] I think the spontaneity and the group interactions

[00:01:12] make them a lot of fun to listen to.

[00:01:14] And I hope you enjoy listening to this one.

[00:01:18] And actually it's because I love panel discussions so much

[00:01:21] that I've actually planned an extra panel discussion

[00:01:24] at our next training event,

[00:01:26] which is taking place in Pleasanton, California,

[00:01:30] which is in the San Francisco Bay Area, later on in May.

[00:01:35] We're going to have two panels on Friday and one on Saturday,

[00:01:39] as if you need any more reasons why you should join us then.

[00:01:44] So come for the training,

[00:01:46] come for the coaching and the feedback,

[00:01:48] and then stay for the bonus panel discussion.

[00:01:53] On that note, I'm going to let Pastor Heath Hardesty

[00:01:58] invite you to join us on May 24th and 25th

[00:02:03] in Pleasanton, California.

[00:02:05] And then the panel discussion is going

[00:02:06] to play immediately afterwards.

[00:02:09] Hey everyone, Heath Hardesty here,

[00:02:11] Pastor Valley Community Church in Pleasanton, California.

[00:02:14] I wanna invite you to come out on May 24th

[00:02:17] and 25th to the Expositors Elected Interactive Training Event

[00:02:21] here in the beautiful Bay Area.

[00:02:23] This will help you grow in your personal study

[00:02:25] and the public proclamation of God's word.

[00:02:28] This will be a joyful time where we learn new skills

[00:02:31] and we do it in community all for the glory of God.

[00:02:35] So bring your team, come on out.

[00:02:37] It'll be a powerful time of learning how

[00:02:40] to preach God's word in a joyful and powerful way.

[00:02:44] We hope to see you then.

[00:02:53] There are a couple of books back there

[00:02:55] that have changed the conversation about preaching.

[00:02:59] And I think that every professor,

[00:03:02] a homiletician, author, it's not so much

[00:03:06] that they want to convince you

[00:03:08] to think like they think as it is

[00:03:11] that they want you to think.

[00:03:13] And I think the Christ-centered preaching book

[00:03:17] has changed the conversation in a positive way.

[00:03:21] And I also think that Between the Two Worlds books

[00:03:24] is a classic that if you listened to what I,

[00:03:30] that's influenced me greatly

[00:03:32] even in my thoughts that I shared with you today.

[00:03:36] So I would say those are two of the books

[00:03:39] that I just noticed back there

[00:03:41] that everyone should be conversant with

[00:03:45] and some of it you'll agree with

[00:03:47] and some of it you won't

[00:03:48] because it was written by a human.

[00:03:50] It's not divinely inspired,

[00:03:53] but very helpful and has helped turn the conversation

[00:03:58] in a healthy way.

[00:03:59] Yeah, yeah.

[00:04:00] So then a follow-up question for you, Jim.

[00:04:02] Are there any books on preaching

[00:04:03] that you've written that you recommend?

[00:04:05] Well, about a dozen or so,

[00:04:07] but yes,

[00:04:12] I have some that I've written

[00:04:13] that I wouldn't recommend.

[00:04:15] Why not?

[00:04:19] Because they're wrong.

[00:04:21] The book,

[00:04:23] you know, the advice I give to would-be writers

[00:04:27] is write when you're young

[00:04:28] but don't publish till you're old.

[00:04:31] That's because for instance,

[00:04:33] some of you probably own this book

[00:04:34] if you have logos,

[00:04:36] How to Write Narrative Sermons

[00:04:39] was one of my early books on preaching

[00:04:41] that I have disavowed in another book

[00:04:44] that I wrote about preaching

[00:04:46] because at that time,

[00:04:47] I believed you could put a narrative structure

[00:04:50] on any text.

[00:04:52] And I just don't believe that anymore.

[00:04:54] I am convinced that the form and the meaning are tied,

[00:04:58] that the inerrancy of Scripture means

[00:05:00] that it's not just the meaning of the text,

[00:05:03] but the form of the text is inspired

[00:05:06] and is without error.

[00:05:07] And we cannot take a narrative structure

[00:05:10] and teach an indicative passage.

[00:05:13] And so, and I have held up my hand and said I was wrong.

[00:05:17] So I would not recommend that, all the rest of them please.

[00:05:21] I have grandkids I like to take to Disneyland

[00:05:24] so please buy them.

[00:05:26] Whether you read them or not, I don't care, just buy them.

[00:05:32] Yeah, thanks.

[00:05:33] Ted, were you gonna?

[00:05:34] Well, I was just gonna ask a question.

[00:05:35] Biblical preaching and Christ-centered preaching.

[00:05:37] Brian Chapel did one, Haddon Robinson did one.

[00:05:39] I always get him confused.

[00:05:40] So do you remember which is?

[00:05:43] Biblical preaching is Haddon Robinson, okay.

[00:05:45] Yeah, yeah.

[00:05:46] And then Wesley, and then also guys,

[00:05:48] this is called priming the pump.

[00:05:50] The real questions need to come from you guys, okay?

[00:05:52] So just so you know.

[00:05:53] And then when you have a question raise your hand

[00:05:54] and I'll come to you.

[00:05:56] But this is your last freebie

[00:05:57] and then you have to ask the next ones, okay?

[00:06:00] Deal?

[00:06:01] All right.

[00:06:02] Wesley, you mentioned a few times in your talk

[00:06:04] just the importance of kind of connecting

[00:06:05] with people's like emotional lives

[00:06:08] and connecting with the complexities of life.

[00:06:11] Do you have any like insight or thoughts

[00:06:13] on the connection between preaching the Bible

[00:06:16] and mental health?

[00:06:18] Yeah.

[00:06:19] So first, I guess this is a plug

[00:06:23] for my organization that I started better days.

[00:06:26] Yes, that's code.

[00:06:27] That's the same way that I asked brother Jim

[00:06:29] has he written any books I'm saying.

[00:06:30] So do you have any ministries

[00:06:32] about Christianity and mental health?

[00:06:34] So I launched an organization post being a young pastor

[00:06:40] that started a church that grew really, really fast.

[00:06:43] I hit really severe burnout, panic attacks,

[00:06:49] depression, anxiety, all the things

[00:06:52] that many of my other friends were dealing with as well

[00:06:55] behind the scenes as they were leading successful churches.

[00:07:00] And during that time I thought

[00:07:02] nobody's really talking about this.

[00:07:05] And then nobody's talking about this

[00:07:07] from the vantage point of the language

[00:07:09] of our subculture, which is scripture.

[00:07:12] So I set out to just podcast, write, teach

[00:07:17] wherever I could on mental health and suffering

[00:07:19] within the framework of Christianity,

[00:07:22] the Bible, theology.

[00:07:24] And that has turned into an organization we podcast

[00:07:27] or podcasts is listened to almost every country in the world.

[00:07:31] And I teach on it, I'm writing like crazy

[00:07:35] and just trying to produce some context

[00:07:39] that will help Christians around navigating

[00:07:43] the human experience, which is really difficult.

[00:07:45] 40% of Psalms are Psalms of the ment,

[00:07:47] which means half of the worship and prayers

[00:07:50] were around human suffering.

[00:07:52] And I just think this is such an important cultural moment

[00:07:55] to lean into the suffering of people in this world

[00:07:58] based on so many factors.

[00:08:00] So we come alongside churches and teams

[00:08:03] and pastor I'm doing a conference

[00:08:05] this weekend at Cornerstone Church

[00:08:07] and then meeting with all their team

[00:08:08] and pastors on Sunday afternoon,

[00:08:11] just to train and equip as many churches

[00:08:13] and pastors as possible with what we do in our organization.

[00:08:18] So if you guys need anything,

[00:08:20] I mean, our podcast is a great resource

[00:08:24] but we would also love to help support you,

[00:08:26] encourage you in any way around the conversation

[00:08:30] of mental health and Christianity.

[00:08:34] What's the name again?

[00:08:35] Better Days.

[00:08:36] So Better Days podcast, our website is Better Days FMLY

[00:08:41] that's short for family.co, Better Days FMLY.co.

[00:08:46] So it's got tons of resources on there.

[00:08:51] Thanks so much.

[00:08:52] We got ourselves a real-life question.

[00:08:54] Is there space for topical sermon series?

[00:09:00] And also like I guess the second part to that is

[00:09:03] is there space for series that are inspired by,

[00:09:06] say a book that's outside of the Bible?

[00:09:07] You read something and you're like,

[00:09:08] man this is brilliant information.

[00:09:10] These are amazing biblical Christ center points.

[00:09:14] How do we create a series around that

[00:09:16] and then obviously stay in the Bible for that

[00:09:19] but is there space for that do you think?

[00:09:22] I know that's very specific but yeah.

[00:09:29] It's a great question.

[00:09:32] I'm on my fourth time through the New Testament

[00:09:35] and so that's my norm but I'm actually learning

[00:09:39] how to love topicals and I usually wedge them in between.

[00:09:43] Before I jump into the next book,

[00:09:45] I'll usually do one.

[00:09:46] I'm actually starting one next Wednesday.

[00:09:48] I was intrigued by a book that I saw that said Jesus

[00:09:51] so it's on Jesus in Questions

[00:09:53] and it was that Jesus asked 307 questions.

[00:09:57] He was asked 183 and he answered three.

[00:10:02] Well that got my attention

[00:10:03] and I started digging into it

[00:10:04] and so in his book he basically takes those

[00:10:07] and pockets them into questions on worry questions

[00:10:10] and so we're gonna do kind of a topic

[00:10:12] and I'm gonna have my guys on staff help me with that

[00:10:14] and we're gonna go through it for five or six weeks

[00:10:16] but I think it's a way to be able to

[00:10:22] kinda step back or fly at 30,000 feet

[00:10:24] and to be able to see the big picture of,

[00:10:27] let's say redemption instead of right there

[00:10:28] looking at the whole Bible

[00:10:30] and then so I think we as Calvaries have made it a,

[00:10:34] it's something voodoo and you shouldn't touch it.

[00:10:36] Go ahead.

[00:10:37] Yeah, I think I would answer the same way

[00:10:39] that you answered Brian.

[00:10:42] One idea around the importance of a thematic sermon

[00:10:48] is sometimes in our culture there's something

[00:10:51] that we need to address as discipleship to Jesus,

[00:10:54] a subject.

[00:10:56] So sometimes it's really healthy to lean deeply

[00:10:59] into a particular subject, to equip people

[00:11:01] or to help people in something that people are longing

[00:11:06] to learn around following Jesus

[00:11:09] but are confused in our cultural moment.

[00:11:11] So I think particular topics that you can disciple

[00:11:15] your people in are really healthy.

[00:11:17] At Bayside we go through exposition, like we'll do a book

[00:11:21] and then we'll do a topic for like four to six weeks.

[00:11:24] So we just finished 21 weeks on the Sermon on the Mount.

[00:11:27] Now we're launching a six week mental health series

[00:11:30] because we know the statistics around mental health

[00:11:33] are staggering and we really wanna help our people

[00:11:35] around that.

[00:11:36] Some of the natural Sundays that we'll have

[00:11:41] are topical messages.

[00:11:43] If you're doing Easter, you're hitting it topically

[00:11:46] or if you're doing Christmas,

[00:11:48] you might even do a series, you're hitting it topically.

[00:11:50] Sometimes you can take a topic

[00:11:53] and you can take a section of scripture

[00:11:54] and teach exegetically on that topic.

[00:11:57] And so there are different ways to approach it.

[00:12:01] My struggle with the question is knowing

[00:12:04] how you're defining your terms.

[00:12:07] Because the way I define topical,

[00:12:09] I would answer differently than what the other

[00:12:12] panelists have said.

[00:12:14] I would see a topical preacher as someone

[00:12:16] who is redacting the scripture

[00:12:18] to make a point that they began with.

[00:12:22] And it forces an error that makes it impossible

[00:12:27] to be able to do the exegetical and the historical

[00:12:30] and the literary work that needs to be done

[00:12:32] to fully understand the text

[00:12:36] and the meaning that was intended by the author.

[00:12:38] And so the way I would define the word,

[00:12:41] I would say let's not do that.

[00:12:43] Now the way I heard the answers,

[00:12:46] you guys were not defining topical that way.

[00:12:48] I don't think, I think that the panelists

[00:12:53] were defining it as a subject

[00:12:56] apart from going chronologically

[00:12:59] through a book in the Bible.

[00:13:02] And so if that's the way we're defining it

[00:13:06] then I would say absolutely you should.

[00:13:10] Because the problem with Ceres

[00:13:13] is that there should be people alive

[00:13:15] in the church when it ends from when it began.

[00:13:19] Somebody ought to remember when you started, right?

[00:13:24] And so it is really pleasing.

[00:13:28] In our church we have a teaching team

[00:13:31] and I lead the team though I'm not the senior pastor

[00:13:34] and I put in what I just call preacher's choice.

[00:13:40] Pray, we're approaching this as a team,

[00:13:43] we're working through this book,

[00:13:45] we're working through this issue.

[00:13:47] But in this case let's take a break from all of that

[00:13:50] and I think the people need that.

[00:13:53] I think they need that.

[00:13:55] And so but when we do that we do it

[00:13:59] from the standpoint philosophically

[00:14:03] as an expository preacher.

[00:14:05] So that for instance if we have an issue

[00:14:09] in our congregation we're wanting to address

[00:14:11] then let's go to occasional literature

[00:14:13] and find a parallel issue that Paul or Peter

[00:14:18] or another writer of the epistles was addressing.

[00:14:23] And then preach that expositorily.

[00:14:26] Now it may mean because you're not going through

[00:14:27] the whole book that you're gonna have to do

[00:14:29] front load an awful lot of context

[00:14:34] to let them know where chapter 11 is

[00:14:37] in the function of the whole book.

[00:14:39] And it may mean that you're gonna need to do a wrap up

[00:14:42] at the end but you do that.

[00:14:45] And when you've narrowed it down to a singular text

[00:14:49] now you can do the hard work of getting out

[00:14:52] the original languages and doing the background work.

[00:14:56] So if you're defining it one way then no,

[00:14:59] if you're defining it the other way absolutely.

[00:15:02] Yeah and I would say to you coming to the word

[00:15:04] of God with fear and trembling just knowing

[00:15:06] that I can get off track really quickly

[00:15:09] if I start to get into here's just the cultural narrative

[00:15:14] and so I need to speak to this cultural narrative

[00:15:16] but like I need to do the work in God's word

[00:15:19] and really pull out the gospel truths

[00:15:21] that are right there that I can present to people.

[00:15:24] That's gonna be helpful and I think one of the things

[00:15:26] that as preachers we can do is think that we were,

[00:15:29] we're kind of the expert in all these different areas.

[00:15:31] And so I need to lean into other people too

[00:15:34] that have done some of that work

[00:15:36] and that's gonna be outside of me.

[00:15:37] So yeah there might be some helpful books

[00:15:39] that people have put out there.

[00:15:41] I read a lot of Timothy Keller and so I'm like,

[00:15:44] hey check this out, this would be a helpful resource for you

[00:15:48] and just pulling that side of it in

[00:15:50] because I don't wanna take people away from the gospel

[00:15:53] and really making that central.

[00:15:58] All right next question from Jose.

[00:15:59] Wait oops.

[00:16:02] Yeah I had a quick question on,

[00:16:06] you know I've heard it said that the best commentary

[00:16:08] of the Bible is the Bible and I've used it in the past

[00:16:12] for either clarifying text, comparing, contrasting.

[00:16:17] How much would you say is enough or too much?

[00:16:21] I heard you say earlier to trim the fat.

[00:16:28] So in regards to like cross-referencing

[00:16:31] during the message okay.

[00:16:34] I love cross-references.

[00:16:35] I use a lot of them

[00:16:39] and I figure that even if my message is worthless,

[00:16:46] if I have a lot of God's word in the message

[00:16:48] and use them in the proper context

[00:16:50] then they're quite beneficial.

[00:16:53] So I'm a huge fan.

[00:16:55] That's a very insightful question

[00:16:57] and it is a matter of debate among homileticians.

[00:17:01] You know, Sanukian takes a very hard stand not to do that

[00:17:05] and others practice it often and think that it's very helpful.

[00:17:13] I think a lot of it has to do with the intent

[00:17:16] of the preacher.

[00:17:18] Are you using a cross-reference

[00:17:20] to help shed light on the text

[00:17:22] or are you doing it as a filler?

[00:17:25] And so a lot of it comes to the intent

[00:17:27] and there's a hermeneutical spiral that takes place

[00:17:31] as we work with the text.

[00:17:32] We have the text that's in front of us.

[00:17:34] We do the historical critical analysis.

[00:17:37] We do all of the backgrounds things that we need to do

[00:17:40] and we spiral out from that

[00:17:43] and do a theological look at it also.

[00:17:47] How does this teaching work with the teaching

[00:17:53] of the Bible as a whole?

[00:17:55] In fact, the philosophy of Christ center preaching

[00:17:57] is that there's one,

[00:17:59] Christiology is the key theology that all of are preaching.

[00:18:07] So that's spiraling out to where we're looking at that,

[00:18:11] especially depending on the literary form you're using.

[00:18:14] If you're using proverbs, optimistic wisdom literature,

[00:18:20] then you're gonna need to see

[00:18:23] what the proverbs says about it

[00:18:26] other than in that one instance

[00:18:28] because there's sometimes a proverbs says this

[00:18:30] and other times it says that and the direct opposite

[00:18:33] and every other words in the verse are identical

[00:18:36] except for that.

[00:18:37] You also need to spiral out

[00:18:39] and see it with pessimistic wisdom literature.

[00:18:42] So we have the optimistic wisdom literature

[00:18:45] that tells you how life will work out more times

[00:18:48] than not when you're faithful to God and live this way

[00:18:52] and then you have Job

[00:18:54] and then you have Ecclesiastes

[00:18:56] that says yeah but this is how it happened to me, right?

[00:19:01] And so there needs to be a balance there

[00:19:03] and so then we go out to the teaching as a whole.

[00:19:06] So you kind of feel like a plain circling

[00:19:09] in reverse from landing.

[00:19:11] You go up higher.

[00:19:12] The problem comes in our preparation

[00:19:15] when we stay at that altitude

[00:19:17] and don't spiral back to the text

[00:19:21] and now comes the homiletical choice.

[00:19:24] You have brought together all of this information.

[00:19:29] How much of it makes the sermon?

[00:19:33] The best preaching is defined

[00:19:36] by what's on the cutting room floor.

[00:19:39] It's what you chose not to say

[00:19:41] because it does not serve the transformative point.

[00:19:45] It does not serve the point of the text

[00:19:48] and if we use that material just to show

[00:19:51] that we know it, to impress people, to feel

[00:19:55] or any other reason, then stop.

[00:19:59] I would much rather have a shorter sermon

[00:20:02] that keeps me on point.

[00:20:04] So it really becomes a hard question.

[00:20:08] Why are you doing it?

[00:20:09] And I don't take a hard line like Sanookian does on that

[00:20:13] and in fact I'm more in your camp with the use of that

[00:20:17] but really our answers are irrelevant

[00:20:22] as what the real key is, why are you doing it?

[00:20:26] And if you're doing it to help the people

[00:20:28] understand the text then I would say,

[00:20:30] pray about it and go at it.

[00:20:37] I love cross referencing when it points to Jesus.

[00:20:41] For people I think making some of those gospel connections

[00:20:44] it's just not very common.

[00:20:47] And so just to be able to unveil some of that

[00:20:50] for people is some of the most exciting things

[00:20:53] that I get to do because it's almost like an Easter egg hunt.

[00:20:57] Like you're going around, you're like look at this Easter egg.

[00:21:00] Like right here open it up, you're gonna find Jesus inside.

[00:21:03] And so really I think again it comes back

[00:21:05] to the heart of the preacher is like

[00:21:08] are we more excited about presenting Jesus to people

[00:21:10] or are we more excited about sharing?

[00:21:13] I know all this information

[00:21:15] because at the end of the day

[00:21:16] that really doesn't matter to me.

[00:21:17] Like I want you to see Jesus,

[00:21:19] I want you to love Jesus.

[00:21:20] I want you to be all about him.

[00:21:22] I think the point you made is what's the purpose?

[00:21:25] That's the key.

[00:21:26] Like if it's validating the text

[00:21:29] I think that serves a good purpose.

[00:21:31] If it's elucidating the idea through the context

[00:21:35] of a narrative in scripture or another passage

[00:21:37] talking about the same thing

[00:21:39] I think it's a great idea

[00:21:41] if it's used as an illustration to provide an example

[00:21:45] I think it could be a good idea too.

[00:21:46] I think knowing the purpose

[00:21:48] not just using parallel passages just to use them

[00:21:51] but to use them for a specific purpose

[00:21:53] I think it's healthy.

[00:21:54] So exactly what you said.

[00:21:56] Yeah and one of the big issues is the synoptic issue.

[00:22:00] So you're preaching through Luke

[00:22:04] and you come to a text

[00:22:06] that has a synoptic parallel somewhere.

[00:22:10] You know I know like with the healing of the paralytic

[00:22:12] in one place it's a towel roof

[00:22:14] and in another place it's a sod roof.

[00:22:17] There's information.

[00:22:20] Luke seems to add information to Mark.

[00:22:23] He seems to give additional information

[00:22:25] so if you're preaching through Mark

[00:22:26] then you wanna bring in what Luke told you

[00:22:29] to give some inside information.

[00:22:31] But there's a reason why Luke wrote it the way

[00:22:35] Luke wrote it.

[00:22:36] Let's let Luke speak

[00:22:38] and the only reason I need to bring up Mark

[00:22:40] if it is to underscore why Luke did what Luke did.

[00:22:45] Does that make sense?

[00:22:47] In other words there's a general sense among preachers

[00:22:50] that the best way to preach the gospels

[00:22:53] is to make kind of a gospel smoothie

[00:22:56] where you take all,

[00:22:58] you take the stories from each one of them

[00:23:01] and you mix them together

[00:23:02] and then you tell the story.

[00:23:04] Well that puts me back in the place

[00:23:06] of being a redactor instead of a preacher

[00:23:09] and I need to just trust Luke

[00:23:10] and let Luke tell his story

[00:23:12] and I need to trust Mark.

[00:23:14] And so in that case,

[00:23:16] I would say only use it

[00:23:18] if it helps me understand what Luke is saying there.

[00:23:23] It's really, I mean it's such an insightful question

[00:23:26] and I don't think there's a right answer to it.

[00:23:29] I think it's a case by case

[00:23:32] and we must be led by the spirit

[00:23:34] as we're writing our sermons.

[00:23:37] We must be led by the spirit.

[00:23:38] But I think your point is well taken

[00:23:40] that anybody who teaches a word will tell you

[00:23:44] that the biggest problem is,

[00:23:46] it's harder to preach a shorter sermon

[00:23:48] than it is a longer sermon.

[00:23:50] And so the biggest problem is,

[00:23:53] what am I gonna cut out?

[00:23:54] Because you fall in love with what you've crafted

[00:23:57] and a lot of it is either redundant

[00:24:01] or it's distracting

[00:24:02] and so you have to understand

[00:24:04] what's gonna serve the teaching of the text best.

[00:24:06] It's harder to listen to a longer sermon.

[00:24:08] Oh, it is.

[00:24:10] Yeah.

[00:24:11] Except for here at my church.

[00:24:13] You guys love long sermons so.

[00:24:15] But I think we've all heard

[00:24:18] when someone is doing it

[00:24:19] just to be a Thompson chain reference, right?

[00:24:22] Where they're saying it,

[00:24:23] oh it's also said here, here, here and here

[00:24:25] and there's no reason why that's

[00:24:27] and so just to piggyback off what you're saying Jim,

[00:24:29] I think that's right.

[00:24:31] Yeah with the length of sermons I've had

[00:24:32] I always teach shorter is better

[00:24:35] and I've had students remind me

[00:24:37] that John MacArthur preaches long

[00:24:39] and he's a great preacher

[00:24:40] and I just look at him and say

[00:24:42] and son you're no John MacArthur.

[00:24:43] Yeah.

[00:24:46] All right we got another question over here.

[00:24:49] How do you preach on

[00:24:52] or how do you approach preaching

[00:24:54] on difficult subjects like subjects

[00:24:56] in our culture that are sometimes divisive

[00:24:59] in the church and do you ever find it hard

[00:25:02] to speak the truth with love when you do that?

[00:25:07] I think difficult subjects,

[00:25:10] we live in such a unique time.

[00:25:13] So much information,

[00:25:15] everybody has a point and idea, a stance

[00:25:19] and I think the language of our day

[00:25:22] to communicate and influence people effectively

[00:25:25] I think you have to communicate with nuance.

[00:25:30] You have to think through nuance.

[00:25:32] I think some of these difficult cultural subjects

[00:25:35] have a lot of nuance that you have to utilize

[00:25:40] in communicating that particular touchy

[00:25:44] or difficult subject.

[00:25:46] And then I also think that every subject has a people, right?

[00:25:52] So people are coming in

[00:25:53] and you've got to think about those people

[00:25:55] on both sides of that subject.

[00:25:57] As you're preparing, okay these people

[00:25:59] are going to be aligned this way or feeling this way.

[00:26:03] These people are gonna be aligned this way,

[00:26:04] feeling this way.

[00:26:06] I think part of the heart and art of preaching

[00:26:09] is to be able to pastor your people well

[00:26:12] through the teaching of scripture and theology

[00:26:16] so that you can help them to build up their faith

[00:26:20] in a way that's cohesive

[00:26:21] but is also helping navigate these tough things

[00:26:26] that are a part of life and culture.

[00:26:29] And so I just think nuance is so important.

[00:26:32] I think when you just come out of the gate

[00:26:34] and just blast people,

[00:26:39] some people might rally around that and be stoked

[00:26:43] but there's a whole other group of people

[00:26:45] that they might be at A on that subject, not Z.

[00:26:49] They might be new as followers of Jesus

[00:26:52] and not 30 years into it.

[00:26:53] So you have to learn to disciple people along

[00:26:56] in their understanding of truth

[00:26:58] and even their stances around theology and truth.

[00:27:01] I've heard it said being right

[00:27:02] doesn't give you the privilege to be rude.

[00:27:05] That's great.

[00:27:06] And so that's just a dovetail on Wesley what you just said.

[00:27:11] We have the obligation to preach the truth in love.

[00:27:16] So when it comes to the difficult sermons

[00:27:18] I just have my staff pastors teach those.

[00:27:20] No, you know you.

[00:27:23] You're like, you're like, you're like, you're like,

[00:27:24] you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like,

[00:27:25] you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like,

[00:27:26] you're like, you're like, you're like,

[00:27:27] Well, and to go along with what you're saying

[00:27:29] about nuance I think, you know,

[00:27:31] to exemplify for people why this is good news.

[00:27:36] Like what we're sharing with people

[00:27:38] is the most loving thing, this is God's truth,

[00:27:41] you know what I mean?

[00:27:42] And so I think the way that it comes across

[00:27:44] is obviously important and it needs to come

[00:27:46] from a heart of Christ.

[00:27:48] And how is this good news?

[00:27:50] I remember Sam Albury talking about homosexuality

[00:27:54] And obviously it's like, we're against that

[00:27:58] as saying this is sin, right?

[00:28:00] And he's somebody who'd struggle with same-sex attraction.

[00:28:02] He looked at the church, he says,

[00:28:04] how is your view and God's view of sexuality good news?

[00:28:10] How is this good news?

[00:28:12] Like tell me because people wanna hear

[00:28:14] how this is good news.

[00:28:15] And it is good news.

[00:28:17] God's design for marriage, for sexuality is good news.

[00:28:22] And so how do we share that with people

[00:28:24] who are broken sexually, who are hurting,

[00:28:27] who are continually living in patterns of this?

[00:28:31] And so I think that's something that for us as preachers,

[00:28:34] like Charles Spurgeon again,

[00:28:36] like we've talked about him tonight,

[00:28:37] he prayed every time he walked in the pulpit,

[00:28:40] I believe in the Holy Spirit.

[00:28:41] I believe in the Holy Spirit.

[00:28:42] I believe in the Holy Spirit.

[00:28:43] And I gotta pray that every time I step in the pulpit

[00:28:46] because it's not about me, right?

[00:28:48] It's not about what I want.

[00:28:49] It's about what is God's word saying,

[00:28:51] help me Lord to deliver that faithfully

[00:28:54] and to share the gospel today.

[00:28:56] There is one girl who left our church

[00:29:00] because we believe that God's designed for marriage.

[00:29:05] And there was a week where I was just preaching on sexual,

[00:29:10] it was like totally, just didn't happen like,

[00:29:14] oh yeah, I was gonna plan it

[00:29:15] cause she was gonna be there.

[00:29:16] She showed up that week with her parents.

[00:29:20] And that was the day she was gonna tell her significant other

[00:29:24] about her parents and they're gonna meet

[00:29:26] and all this other stuff.

[00:29:28] And her parents afterwards wrote me a letter.

[00:29:31] I, again, I was talking about

[00:29:32] this is God's design for marriage.

[00:29:34] This is the gospel.

[00:29:36] God loves you like I wanna invite you into God's ways.

[00:29:39] And they wrote me a letter afterwards.

[00:29:41] They said we had given up

[00:29:44] because we felt like God didn't hear us.

[00:29:47] And then we walked into your church that weekend.

[00:29:50] We weren't even supposed to be there.

[00:29:51] Like our daughter was gonna take us to another church.

[00:29:54] We ended up at your church.

[00:29:55] And so, and that's what you preach that day.

[00:29:58] And I remember seeing it

[00:29:59] and so it was a reminder to me,

[00:30:01] like I am not delivering what I want to say

[00:30:06] on the day that I wanna say it.

[00:30:08] God is doing something supernaturally beyond me.

[00:30:12] And I think that's the good news

[00:30:13] that we get to share with people is like,

[00:30:15] hey, God does have a good design

[00:30:17] and it is gospel truth for us to live out.

[00:30:22] Yeah.

[00:30:23] This past Christmas,

[00:30:25] I preached the different songs

[00:30:27] and when I got to Elizabeth's song,

[00:30:31] I knew that it was gonna be particularly difficult

[00:30:34] for a couple in the church to hear

[00:30:37] because they have fertility issues.

[00:30:40] And here we have Zachariah and Elizabeth rejoicing,

[00:30:43] you know, all of these.

[00:30:45] And so after the service was over

[00:30:49] and our prayer time had ended,

[00:30:53] I made a beeline.

[00:30:55] She was gone.

[00:30:56] He was still there.

[00:30:58] And I grabbed John by the hand and I said,

[00:31:01] "'Brother, I know this was a difficult sermon

[00:31:03] for you to hear.

[00:31:06] And I just want you to know that I love you

[00:31:08] and I'm praying for you."

[00:31:12] And I don't know if that's what you meant by difficult

[00:31:14] but for that couple, that was difficult that day.

[00:31:18] And just being aware that even a topic that,

[00:31:23] you know, I think one of the most difficult sermons

[00:31:25] to hear is Mother's Day,

[00:31:27] especially if you start by turn to Proverbs 31.

[00:31:31] You know, it can be very difficult,

[00:31:33] especially with this fertility issues

[00:31:35] or if your mother abandoned you

[00:31:37] or any number of things.

[00:31:40] And so just being aware that every message

[00:31:43] is difficult for someone

[00:31:45] and they can't keep you from preaching the text.

[00:31:49] But neither does it stop me from going

[00:31:51] and just letting them know, I know.

[00:31:54] And I've been praying for you all week long

[00:31:56] and I'll continue to pray for you.

[00:31:58] Yeah, I love what you just said.

[00:31:59] It doesn't keep you from preaching the text

[00:32:02] but it does help you to pastor

[00:32:04] when you're preaching the text.

[00:32:07] Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate that.

[00:32:08] And the question is about difficult issues

[00:32:11] and of course we think about,

[00:32:12] well, what's the latest protest march about?

[00:32:15] Or what's the thing on the news

[00:32:16] or what's the hot button issue?

[00:32:17] But things for highlighting that, yeah, difficult issues,

[00:32:20] they're not just national,

[00:32:21] they're in families as well.

[00:32:24] And so we touch on difficult issues all the time.

[00:32:27] Mike, if I can piggyback on that

[00:32:29] because what first came to my mind,

[00:32:30] I was immediately thinking of 2020

[00:32:32] and I was thinking of just the complexity

[00:32:35] of pastors we were talking,

[00:32:37] we were texting Ted and with Rob

[00:32:39] and trying to figure out what's right.

[00:32:41] Do we stay indoors, do we go outdoors,

[00:32:43] do we wear masks, not wear a mask

[00:32:45] and just filtering all of that through.

[00:32:47] And I remember a pastor from San Diego,

[00:32:50] he gave, it was the greatest wisdom that I thought

[00:32:53] and he just simply said, you pastor your flock.

[00:32:57] And it helped me to take a deep breath and realize

[00:33:00] I don't have to pastor everybody's flock.

[00:33:02] And so that next Sunday I shared,

[00:33:04] I said, here's where we stand.

[00:33:06] We just got back from Israel.

[00:33:07] We brought back 20 people with COVID

[00:33:09] when we didn't even know what it was.

[00:33:11] One of the ladies was taking care of her parents.

[00:33:13] He ended up dying.

[00:33:14] So on the one hand, those that are saying it's not real,

[00:33:17] to us it's real.

[00:33:18] For our body here it's real.

[00:33:19] Somebody's already died from it.

[00:33:21] And this is like the first couple of weeks into it.

[00:33:23] And so we're saying, so what we have here

[00:33:25] is we have a room out,

[00:33:27] we have a place outside where you can meet

[00:33:30] and come inside.

[00:33:31] We had masks on one side.

[00:33:32] You know, we just kinda,

[00:33:34] we're just gonna try to hit it in the middle.

[00:33:36] And we're trying to figure it out.

[00:33:37] We don't have it understood.

[00:33:38] And so it just helped me to be able to relax.

[00:33:41] There was a difficult thing, people were polarized.

[00:33:43] How dare you go outside?

[00:33:45] You know, you just,

[00:33:48] I think that was such a piece.

[00:33:49] Yeah.

[00:33:50] Yeah.

[00:33:51] Yeah.

[00:33:52] Such good wisdom.

[00:33:53] It was such a piece of just,

[00:33:54] just shepherd the flock that God's given you.

[00:33:56] And it was just, it was a beautiful council.

[00:33:59] Yeah, we're gonna have the last question for today.

[00:34:01] There's another panel tomorrow.

[00:34:03] And like I said, I love panels.

[00:34:05] And so I hate to be the one to end this one.

[00:34:07] But this is a great question.

[00:34:09] And I wanna make sure that we include this

[00:34:11] before we finish up this part.

[00:34:15] What would you guys say to those who wanna grow

[00:34:18] in expositing the text,

[00:34:19] but yet they don't have the platform

[00:34:21] of a weekly Bible study

[00:34:23] to like continuously make sermon week after week?

[00:34:27] And then maybe even to those who do have the platform,

[00:34:30] what would you say to those

[00:34:34] and help raising up new expositors?

[00:34:40] Those that do have the platform

[00:34:42] need to platform people to develop their giftings.

[00:34:46] I think that's so important.

[00:34:48] And that's a part of equipping

[00:34:49] and that's 1 Corinthians 12 through 14, body life.

[00:34:53] I think it's so important that we allow people

[00:34:56] to get reps.

[00:34:57] The only way to develop is to get reps.

[00:35:00] And then if you're not platformed,

[00:35:04] you take every opportunity you do get

[00:35:07] and you can be studying and learning and reading

[00:35:10] and listening to various preachers

[00:35:13] and pulling out things that they do

[00:35:16] that you find to be very effective.

[00:35:18] So I think there's some things

[00:35:19] that you can do in obscurity.

[00:35:21] And then I think those of us who lead churches

[00:35:24] to really to fan the flame

[00:35:26] and develop the gifts within our church is so important.

[00:35:29] And I would say in that regard,

[00:35:31] one of the biggest mistakes I see young preachers make

[00:35:35] or people that are early in learning to teach the Bible

[00:35:39] is they got this pressure, I gotta say something.

[00:35:41] I gotta say something.

[00:35:42] And so you approach your study like

[00:35:47] from the moment you're out the gate,

[00:35:49] you're trying to put your notes together.

[00:35:51] And that's a critical mistake.

[00:35:53] Wait until you got something to say.

[00:35:54] You know?

[00:35:55] And you really want to just take your time

[00:35:58] to soak in the text.

[00:36:00] And then in that regard, along the same lines,

[00:36:04] I see guys who know their notes better

[00:36:06] than they know the biblical text.

[00:36:08] And that's a real big problem.

[00:36:11] Somebody, I forget who you say was either Haddon Robinson,

[00:36:13] might've been Haddon Robinson,

[00:36:14] but he talked about the 3 a.m. test.

[00:36:17] And you get woken up in the middle of the night,

[00:36:18] you better be able to say in a succinct sentence or two

[00:36:22] what it is you're teaching.

[00:36:24] And so that's where you want to get to.

[00:36:26] You want to get to the place where mentally

[00:36:28] I know what it is I'm teaching.

[00:36:31] So soak in the text and then craft your outline.

[00:36:35] Then get to the place.

[00:36:36] And the notes, they just serve to keep you on track.

[00:36:39] And your hearers, they don't read your notes.

[00:36:44] They listen to what you're saying.

[00:36:46] And so it's not like where they can just rewind it

[00:36:50] and listen again.

[00:36:51] You ever read a book and you get to the end of the page

[00:36:53] and then you're like, I don't even, it didn't sink in.

[00:36:57] So what do you do?

[00:36:58] You go back and you reread it.

[00:36:59] And your hearers can't go back and reread it.

[00:37:02] So you want to be able to take them along in such a way

[00:37:06] that you don't lose them in the process.

[00:37:08] So anyway, I just kind of fire hosed you there but yeah.

[00:37:12] Yeah, and I would say too like we don't have to look

[00:37:15] for platforms, just look for opportunities to serve.

[00:37:17] So there's youth that need somebody to sit with them

[00:37:20] and share the gospel with them

[00:37:21] and break down texts together.

[00:37:23] And then look for mentors.

[00:37:26] There's great mentors.

[00:37:28] Jamir Rate has been a mentor to me.

[00:37:29] And so just giving me opportunities, you know,

[00:37:32] and other people along the way.

[00:37:34] I had a youth pastor who said, hey,

[00:37:35] I believe in you at 16 years old.

[00:37:38] And that was right when I came to Christ

[00:37:40] and then saw ministry in my future.

[00:37:44] So I think just being able to do that for others

[00:37:46] has been a big part of what I feel my calling is

[00:37:49] and what I would encourage you to keep doing

[00:37:51] and looking for opportunities because a lot of what

[00:37:55] happens is the character happens not on a platform,

[00:37:58] but really outside of that,

[00:38:00] studying and praying and trusting God.

[00:38:03] I heard early on kind of piggyback off that

[00:38:06] is if you can teach a five year old about redemption,

[00:38:08] then you can teach adults.

[00:38:09] And so I started in the Sunday school classroom

[00:38:12] actually with two year olds

[00:38:13] and I remember the first time going into it.

[00:38:14] I thought, what if they asked me something

[00:38:15] I don't know.

[00:38:16] And I didn't know two year olds didn't ask questions,

[00:38:18] which I made it through the first one.

[00:38:20] But I literally, I told the guy that was doing

[00:38:22] our Sunday school at time is just like put me in any class.

[00:38:25] And it just so happened that I went from two year olds

[00:38:28] to three year olds to four year olds,

[00:38:29] pretty soon middle school, high school,

[00:38:31] home Bible study.

[00:38:32] I had no clue as a electrician by trade.

[00:38:34] I had no plan on being a pastor,

[00:38:36] but you know, it was one of those ones where I look back

[00:38:38] and I say, ah, now I see what you're doing.

[00:38:40] But all the way down to that,

[00:38:42] you can't use big words with little kids.

[00:38:44] And so you really have to understand the concepts.

[00:38:46] So if you can explain it to a five year old,

[00:38:50] it's, I think that's a helpful part of the chain.

[00:38:54] Tell me like I'm five.

[00:38:59] I started preaching really young.

[00:39:01] And let me tell you just a quick story about that.

[00:39:04] My father was a pastor and I went to go see

[00:39:09] in our denomination we have directors of missions

[00:39:12] and they're kind of regional ministers

[00:39:15] that minister to several churches in the area.

[00:39:18] And they're the person that knows

[00:39:20] if there's a church without a pastor.

[00:39:22] And so I'm 17 years old and I go to see Strauss Atkinson

[00:39:26] who was a friend of the family

[00:39:27] has said under my mama's table many times

[00:39:30] and was the director of missions.

[00:39:32] I said across the desk from him and said,

[00:39:34] brother Strauss, you may know God's call me to preach.

[00:39:37] He says, yes, I've heard that Jimmy.

[00:39:40] Larry's told me that's my dad.

[00:39:42] Larry's told me about that.

[00:39:44] I said, well, I'm ready.

[00:39:45] Have you got a church where I can go?

[00:39:48] He did exactly what you're doing.

[00:39:49] He started laughing.

[00:39:50] He started laughing.

[00:39:54] About maybe four months later, I got a call.

[00:39:57] I was working at a furniture store

[00:40:00] and he called where I worked and asked to speak to me.

[00:40:03] And I went into the manager's office to talk to him.

[00:40:06] He says, Jimmy, there's a little church

[00:40:09] that's 90 miles away from the college where you attend

[00:40:13] and they're about to close the doors.

[00:40:15] They just have three people left

[00:40:18] and they call me and ask,

[00:40:19] can I get him one more preacher?

[00:40:22] He said, well you go.

[00:40:23] I said, absolutely.

[00:40:26] I preached at rest homes.

[00:40:28] I preached to the homeless.

[00:40:30] Now let me just be totally honest with you.

[00:40:33] When I was in high school,

[00:40:34] I preached to the family chickens.

[00:40:37] Man, when you got a message burning inside.

[00:40:40] Let's go to the chickens.

[00:40:42] To the chickens.

[00:40:44] That was where I learned to lay eggs

[00:40:46] while I was preaching.

[00:40:47] Yeah.

[00:40:50] But let me answer this outside of my own experience

[00:40:55] is that there are marginalized people

[00:40:57] and there are places in rest homes

[00:41:00] and homeless places and those kinds of things.

[00:41:03] I've seen people go under the bridge

[00:41:06] and ask homeless people if they would gather

[00:41:09] for the word of God.

[00:41:10] And I've seen them open up to do that.

[00:41:13] The truth is you won't learn how to preach

[00:41:15] by listening to us talk about preaching.

[00:41:18] You learn how to preach about preaching.

[00:41:20] And so brother, God has called you.

[00:41:23] You get out there and do it somewhere.

[00:41:25] There's gotta be a chicken farm somewhat.

[00:41:30] So good.

[00:41:33] Yeah.

[00:41:34] Yeah.

[00:41:35] And those chickens turned to Chick-fil-A actually.

[00:41:38] Yeah.

[00:41:39] That's where Christian chicken comes from.

[00:41:41] All right guys, thank you so much for that.

[00:41:43] I love, like I said, I love that.

[00:41:45] I appreciate you men so much.

[00:41:49] Well, all right.

[00:41:49] Thanks for listening all the way to the end.

[00:41:53] Be sure to check out the show notes

[00:41:56] for links to some of those books that were mentioned,

[00:42:00] The Better Days podcast,

[00:42:02] then also an interview that I did a while ago

[00:42:05] with Dr. Don Sinukian

[00:42:07] who Jim mentioned a few times earlier in the conversation.

[00:42:12] It's actually one of my favorite episodes

[00:42:15] that we've put out

[00:42:16] and surprisingly it hasn't performed very well.

[00:42:20] So you should go check out that hidden gem

[00:42:23] of the Dr. Don Sinukian episode.

[00:42:26] Anyway, I hope to see you later on in May

[00:42:29] in Pleasanton, California.

[00:42:30] Visit our website, expositors.co

[00:42:33] for details and registration links.

[00:42:36] I hope that this helps you grow

[00:42:38] in your personal study

[00:42:39] and public proclamation of God's word.

[00:42:43] This podcast is a part of CGN Media,

[00:42:45] a podcast network that points to Christ.

[00:42:47] We are supported by listeners like you.

[00:42:49] To help us create more great shows,

[00:42:50] visit cgmedia.org slash support.