Why You Should Stop Saying "We" in Your Messages with Carey Nieuwhof

[00:00:00] One thing I definitely put work into stopping was the use of the word we. So we were trained

[00:00:06] to use the word we in seminary. In other words, don't put yourself above the audience,

[00:00:12] put yourself under the word, which I think is really like a great theological principle.

[00:00:18] Of course, I'm not above the audience. Of course, I'm a congregate. Of course, I sit under

[00:00:23] the word of God. But what I've learned in our culture anyway, and I've done this for decades

[00:00:30] and I talked to my preaching prof about it. He's still disagrees. He's an excellent preacher. But

[00:00:35] as we reach more and more people, I just found if I talked about you, people listened.

[00:00:41] Like, when did you last read the word of God? When one of you struggled in prayer,

[00:00:46] when have you really had a hard time? No, once I'm off, I'm doing a really hard teaching.

[00:00:50] I'll say, look, I have this too. We all struggle with this. My marriage has been through

[00:00:56] a really bad time. So how about you guys? How are you doing as a couple?

[00:01:00] Hey, welcome to the Expositors Collective Podcast Episode 313. I'm your host, Mike Neglia.

[00:01:07] And I am really excited for you to listen to this conversation that I got to have with

[00:01:12] Kerry Newhoff. He is the host of one of my favorite podcasts and it was a real honor to

[00:01:19] speak to him. He's a best-selling author in the conversation. We speak about one of his books

[00:01:26] from a while ago called At Your Best and some lessons that I learned from it and ways to integrate

[00:01:31] that into sermon preparation rhythms. He is a former attorney, he planted a church just a

[00:01:39] just a cool guy all around. I know that you're going to enjoy this conversation. I hope that you're

[00:01:46] subscribed to this podcast preferably through Spotify because week after week there are compelling

[00:01:54] conversations having to do with the craft and the process of preparing sermons and studying

[00:02:02] the Bible and also the character and the heart of the Bible teacher. So if you are a regular

[00:02:10] Bible teacher or even somebody who considers yourself a student of God's word, I hope that

[00:02:17] this conversation and all the idiotic expositors collective help you to grow in your personal study

[00:02:23] and public proclamation of God's word. Here's my conversation with Kerry Newhoff.

[00:02:34] All right, hey welcome to the Expositors Collective Podcast. Really thrilled to be speaking with

[00:02:39] the one and only Kerry Newhoff. Kerry welcome to the Expositors Collective. Mike, it's great

[00:02:44] to be with you today thanks for making the time for me. Yeah, honored. Well I'm not super good at

[00:02:49] small talk. I'm just going to get straight to question one. Neither am I so that's good. Yeah there's

[00:02:55] far too many important things in the world to talk about. Maybe as a way to kind of get to know you

[00:03:00] or to introduce yourself to the here is a little bit what was the first time you ever taught the Bible?

[00:03:06] Yeah, so you know I was thinking back it was a sermon on pretty sure it was Deuteronomy 6 or

[00:03:14] Deuteronomy 8. I don't know why I picked that. It could have been like a lectionary thing.

[00:03:20] It was probably 30 years ago. No, no, it would have been in the 80s. Are you kidding me?

[00:03:26] And I preached up my home church and it was about when you're successful, don't forget God.

[00:03:31] I think that's Deuteronomy 6. I can be wrong. I didn't look it up.

[00:03:36] And you know I ran across it. I don't have a computer transcript of it anymore like a computer file

[00:03:43] but I was going through some old paper files that we have in a closet upstairs and I ran into it

[00:03:51] and I read it and it was really interesting. I thought I don't know I'd preach it exactly the

[00:03:57] same way but the DNA was there. Like the DNA was there and it was just so interesting

[00:04:03] to see in that very first form some of the ways I would talk and the ways I would think about

[00:04:08] the scripture and interact with it. We're still operating today 35 years later.

[00:04:16] I'm going to say it was probably 1989 because that's when I experienced a call to ministry.

[00:04:21] Yeah, and I'm going to say it was probably Deuteronomy 8 because I just glanced at it and that's

[00:04:25] a huge thank you. Thank you for reading the Bible. I appreciate that.

[00:04:28] Deuteronomy 8 might have been verses 6 or 8 then, but I remember right.

[00:04:32] How did you feel when you rediscovered those notes and then it actually kind of like

[00:04:37] it seemed authentic to yourself? How'd you feel when you discovered that?

[00:04:42] Yeah, surprised I guess. You know there is that line that you only have one message and you

[00:04:46] preach at your whole life and I don't know. I think there might be five messages that most of us

[00:04:52] sort of come back to again and again. One of them, you know I think about success a lot.

[00:05:00] I don't know why. I don't know why I was thinking about it back then. Probably the law background

[00:05:06] and I had some success in radio early on and it's like oh this is what trips up people.

[00:05:14] I think that was just a really interesting theme for me and you know it's not a very quoted

[00:05:21] passage of the Old Testament. So yeah I think I read it and I'm like oh this is affirming.

[00:05:28] Like somehow God was in the calling. God was in the messaging back then and I guess

[00:05:33] I've grown a lot but like I'm not all that different maybe then I was when I was 24 when I wrote

[00:05:39] that. So as a 24 year old first time preacher, like what brought you into the pulpit? Were you

[00:05:46] specifically invited in? Did somebody coach you and mentor you? Did you raise your hand in

[00:05:50] volunteer? Yeah I pushed the pastor out of the way. No no not at all. I'm pretty sure that was my

[00:05:56] home church. I would think I probably got invited to do pulpit supply so that's probably how that

[00:06:03] came about. Yeah well so I've there's been about 310 episodes of the expositors collective podcast.

[00:06:12] I've asked a lot of preachers about their first sermon and many of them like would kind of roll

[00:06:18] their eyes and they'll say like oh it was horrible or you know oh I've grown a lot since then

[00:06:24] and while maybe some of those themes or like that that divine sense of calling has kind of been

[00:06:30] consistent for you throughout those decades. You certainly have grown since then so there's

[00:06:36] consistency in what you've seen and how you've like interpreted or understood God's word but

[00:06:40] how have you grown as a preacher and communicator since then? I was going to say maybe I was happy

[00:06:44] with it because I haven't grown Mike and you shouldn't have me on your podcast. I don't know like

[00:06:49] stagnating for decades. I expected to roll my eyes and go oh my gosh are you kidding me?

[00:06:55] But I've also worked in public communication since I was 16 so I told you before we started

[00:07:01] recording I was in radio and so that whole idea like you don't really have a script in radio

[00:07:06] and back in the day it was in the 80s it was time temperature and tune because people didn't have

[00:07:12] watches people didn't have phones. You literally there was a day in my lifetime where you didn't know

[00:07:16] what time it was unless you were near a clock or had or you'd stop people and go do you know what time

[00:07:21] it is? You could start a conversation yeah pretty normal right like or you'd start a meeting

[00:07:25] it would be like what time do you have it and it would be like oh well now you know your device turned

[00:07:31] to in what in in my case is three o'clock Eastern at exactly the same moment in Ireland that my

[00:07:37] clock turned top of the hour years did but that was a different world and so I learned how to talk

[00:07:42] off the top of my feet. I hadn't done my year in law then I was in law school I'm working in a law

[00:07:48] firm when I wrote that sermon but you know a lot teaches you to think on your feet it really does

[00:07:53] it's like you got a it's sink or float in this you know carefully scripted argument just doesn't work

[00:07:58] so I always felt comfortable in the pulpit I think you know obviously I have a lot more empathy for

[00:08:04] the audience now than I did I think you have to exegete the text I also think you have to exegete

[00:08:09] your audience so that would be a big difference the sermons probably longer now I think I have more

[00:08:17] to say my guess is that was a 20 or 25 minute sermon. I tried to keep mine to 35 I say try because it's

[00:08:27] hard as a keynote speaker when you have a lot and I really think shorter is the future I really do

[00:08:33] you look at shorts you look at Instagram Reels you look at TikTok people's attention spans are shorter

[00:08:40] we're used to do to watching on demand and then I think obviously reading the Bible for another

[00:08:46] 30 35 years and I generally with very few exceptions do the Bible in one year program so I'd probably

[00:08:53] read through the Bible. I don't think it's exaggerating 25 times since I wrote that sermon so you

[00:09:02] just have a richer appreciation of the whole tapestry of scripture and how it interrelates plus I

[00:09:09] hadn't been seminary. I didn't really understand the Old Testament yeah until I did Old New Testament

[00:09:16] in first year seminary and then when I got there it was like you know it was all the pieces of

[00:09:22] a puzzle but I didn't know how fit together I knew who Moses was I knew David was I knew the

[00:09:25] minor prophets I knew you know I grew up as a church kid so I knew it but I didn't know how they

[00:09:30] all fit together and then it was in seminary I'm like oh well that's where Moses is he comes

[00:09:34] after Abraham right and Abraham was sort of Isaac and Jacob and then came Moses and there was

[00:09:41] a 400 year interval I didn't you know the exile one of the Babylonian exile happened I don't I

[00:09:46] didn't know till I got seminary I read about it you know but seminary put a lot of that together

[00:09:52] for me so I think that reading the rich tapestry of scripture having a properly trained

[00:09:59] theological framework that I can then overlay as I bring my insights to the text and to the

[00:10:05] congregation etc probably has really helped me grow as a leader yeah hey thanks so a lot of

[00:10:11] that has to do with like understanding the the text or or the Bible itself is there something

[00:10:18] communications wise that's changed over these decades or maybe to put it more like negatively

[00:10:23] what's something that you used to do that you put work into stopping

[00:10:30] things I one thing I definitely put work into stopping was the use of the word we so we were trained

[00:10:37] to use the word we in seminary in other words don't put yourself above the audience

[00:10:42] put yourself under the word which I think is is really like a great theological principle of course

[00:10:49] I'm not above the audience of course I'm a congregate of course I sit under the word of God

[00:10:54] but what I've learned in our culture anyway and I've done this for decades and I talked to my

[00:11:01] preaching prof about it he still disagrees he's an excellent preacher but you know as we reach more

[00:11:07] more people I just found if I talked about you people listened like you know when when did you

[00:11:13] last read the word of God when one of you struggled in prayer one of you really had a hard time

[00:11:19] no one's in law if I'm doing a really hard teaching I'll say look I have this too we all struggle with

[00:11:24] this you know my marriage has been through really bad times but how about you guys how are you doing

[00:11:28] as a couple you know you don't want to you don't want to hit people with a sledgehammer but it

[00:11:33] really engages people because you know people people understand relevance when it applies to them

[00:11:39] and I've done that in my writing too if you look at my books if you look at my website

[00:11:44] and when we train people to write in my company one of my employees over time he had a little

[00:11:50] you know the don't sign you know the circle with the red line through it yeah like no swimming

[00:11:56] no whatever no no bicycles that kind of thing it was just no with the word we with that no

[00:12:02] sign through it so anyway you know it's like you're not allowed to use the word we period because

[00:12:08] if an email opens with the word you know we all struggle from time to time with are you struggling

[00:12:14] with it just creates a relevancy and so I've found as I speak to audiences and after the project

[00:12:21] speaking to a lot of audiences preaching but also in public speaking you is a very very powerful word

[00:12:28] so that's one small change I made that I think has has brought disproportional impact

[00:12:33] yeah what's the what's the wrong way to use you or maybe let's say when you were in seminary

[00:12:41] why was there the emphasis on we I think there has kind of a like a humble sound to it

[00:12:46] and oh it sounds humble yeah it really does and I think theologically it's a really good point

[00:12:52] sure but practically it just doesn't connect so you know the nice thing about you can't you can't

[00:12:59] do this when you're preaching but you know with what I do now in building in the leaders if I

[00:13:05] send an email and I write it all in we and then I write it all in you haven't done this in a long

[00:13:10] long time but I'm 99% sure you can split test it send it to half your list as we half your list as

[00:13:16] you the engagement the number of people who click through to the call to action the response will be

[00:13:22] way more emotional when it's you yeah well thank you very much this actually came up in another

[00:13:27] recent conversation that we had whether it's appropriate to use the more prophetic you or the

[00:13:33] more fellow learner kind of we we're all on a journey oh shucks folks I'm learning this as well

[00:13:40] and I think yeah and I think you need to have that tone like I will tell personal stories my personal

[00:13:46] stories are almost never of successes they're almost always of failures and unfortunately I have a

[00:13:52] lot of material in that realm so if I'm saying you know hey there have been times like I prayed

[00:13:57] this morning and I felt like my prayers were bouncing off the ceiling I know they're not but have

[00:14:01] you ever been their mic is very different than we all feel like our prayers bounce off this it just

[00:14:08] feels yeah you know there was okay there was this hall belief okay here here I'm glad you're pushing

[00:14:14] on this when do you use we in an actual conversation the answer is you don't yeah we're glad

[00:14:25] oh no not not even yeah like we're glad you're here for our dinner tonight

[00:14:30] you wouldn't say that if you got friends over you would be like oh I'm really glad you guys have come

[00:14:35] how's your day going it feels way more personal and so you know what it was and I mean

[00:14:40] I'm not throwing my seminary under the bus here I learned a lot of great things but most of the people

[00:14:46] were leading non-growing churches and there was that sort of homily voice that was as we all

[00:14:54] know God is love it's like what does that mean it's true that's almost a direct script you

[00:15:01] quote out of John but like you're not connecting with people if you're like hey do you feel unloved

[00:15:07] like what was it that happened to you in the playground when you were a kid or what did your dad say

[00:15:13] to you or what did your mom say to you when you were five that made you feel like you were unlovable

[00:15:18] I got some news for you today God is love and you know what this prize is Mike he loves you

[00:15:24] now that's a personal conversation that just got brought to the pulpit as opposed to as we all

[00:15:30] know God loves it it sounds so homily ish so boring so you know artists don't write that like

[00:15:37] loves okay when was I'm glad you got me on a riff here because I've never known why I feel so

[00:15:41] passionate about that name a song a really popular song that uses we not you

[00:15:49] well there's that famous yeah that famous song from yeah we will always love you

[00:15:54] yeah we will rock you okay there you go yeah like like Mariah Carey you know

[00:16:00] yeah we will always love yeah I can't do Mariah Carey but she can I will always love you it's

[00:16:05] always yeah personal and you know if you follow Calvin et cetera I mean I went to a reform seminary

[00:16:12] you know Calvin is like God is very personal God is very like a mother listening to her children

[00:16:19] yeah his scripture listening to us so yeah I just you know I think you can make a strong argument

[00:16:24] that it's more faithful and it's certainly more effective I promise you that yeah and I think you

[00:16:30] just did make a great compelling arguments for those of us that are still wondering that question

[00:16:36] hey so in these preparation of sermons and whatever pronoun that you're using I know that you used to

[00:16:44] do this weekend a week out but but now it's not a regular weekly rhythm I do have a question about

[00:16:50] your your weekly rhythm but before that I just want to ask like do you do you miss it do you miss the

[00:16:56] the grind or is it something that you're kind of glad to be an occasional preacher now I am very

[00:17:02] glad to be an occasional preacher now I preached regularly for 28 years maybe that's a long time

[00:17:14] like since I really went into seminary in the early 90s 93 was when I went into seminary I graduated

[00:17:21] in 97 and I started preaching almost every week and then you know I've been in my own ministry

[00:17:27] since 95 up here in north of Toronto and you know that was at the beginning 48 50 sermons a year

[00:17:38] and then it hit a high water mark when we had an midweek service in the early 2000s of maybe 60 or

[00:17:44] 70 messages a year yeah it was insane man now that was pre-internet that was like we had an

[00:17:50] internet but it wasn't we didn't have social media we didn't have YouTube so in the pre-YouTube

[00:17:56] era I used to teach a lot and it was easier then to bring your exegesis into the pulpit and just kind

[00:18:02] of make a few applications but but it's changed so much so yeah I stopped I stepped off the teaching

[00:18:09] team in 2020 at Kinexus Church so I stepped out of lead pastor role in 2015 kept a regular teaching

[00:18:15] load until 2019 went back to halftime and now I'm a very occasional preacher I turned down all

[00:18:21] guest preaching I enjoy speaking like I love conference speaking and I do that a lot but I find it

[00:18:28] very hard to know what to say to a congregation I don't know and I feel like it's pastoral other

[00:18:36] people have that gift they do it under it preaching I don't think that's my jam so I don't miss it

[00:18:41] and the other thing too the reason I stepped out of data and preaching I feel not my calling is

[00:18:49] but my assignment has shifted where God has said okay you worked for 20 years working on a local

[00:18:54] church now you're going to build into the people who lead the local church I feel like that's

[00:18:58] a very clear call from God so I don't feel like I just got tired or I got bored but I'll tell you

[00:19:04] I do not envy the weekly sermon prep and I teach occasionally at our church at the invitation of

[00:19:12] my successor we have great relationship I did a series this fall in October and I'm like oh yeah

[00:19:20] this is a lot of work oh yeah this is a lot of work oh yeah it's a lot of work and it's tiring

[00:19:24] we have three services now at a broadcast campus we had another just because we were at a room

[00:19:29] and I'm like whoa those Sunday naps were like tasty I was so tired afterwards and I don't know

[00:19:36] there's something about preaching versus public speaking like when I when I do a keynote I just set

[00:19:42] up with a client for a long day in January I know I'll be tired but I won't be preaching tired

[00:19:48] sure preaching tired is just different and I don't know what it is it's not like I try less hard

[00:19:54] yeah when I'm talking to leaders it's just it's just different yeah panic hostile friends would say

[00:19:59] you've been fighting demons all day long and that's yeah I think I wouldn't dismiss that

[00:20:04] and that's the wild hyperbole but I believe yeah there is there's an aspect to that but

[00:20:09] for those of us who are still doing the weekend week out grind I've actually found your book

[00:20:14] at your best to be like a real a real gift a real help

[00:20:19] okay I'm sure that you could talk at length about this but like really briefly like

[00:20:24] could you talk about how you used like red zones green zones and yellow zones to work in your

[00:20:30] favor as you were preparing messages weekend a week out 100 percent so for those who have read

[00:20:36] the book which is most listeners I imagine or who have forgotten it uh the framework's pretty simple

[00:20:43] if you take your 24 hour day or your workday you can divide it into three zones where your energy

[00:20:48] is high low or medium high energy is your green zone low energy for me that's four to six in the

[00:20:55] afternoon is you're you're pretty tired like basically I don't want to be in a meeting I need to

[00:21:00] there have a nap or go for a walk or have a snack or something you're just dead and then yellow is

[00:21:07] your mid-energy everything in between so that's sort of the big idea and you have to manage your

[00:21:12] energy not just your time so what I did in this really impacted sermon crap my green zone the

[00:21:18] time when my energy and creativity is at its highest is in the morning from seven to eleven a.m

[00:21:24] and because I had a young growing family when I was leading a church I never liked to be out at

[00:21:30] night I wanted to have dinner with my family at least five nights a week and that was as much about

[00:21:35] the kids being out as me being out I was rarely out once I got that settle down I would do breakfast

[00:21:41] meetings and what happens was I found I was burning jet fuel because I would have my message to write

[00:21:48] Sunday after Sunday I'd get into the office by like 10 a.m. after a long breakfast meeting and

[00:21:53] a run to the drive-through for some coffee and then I get into the office and then you got all the

[00:21:58] office stuff and all these emails and text messages my sermon wouldn't get written kick the can

[00:22:03] down the road to Tuesday kick it down the road again to Wednesday and I wasn't using my gift I was

[00:22:08] using it rather but I was cheating it I was cheating it because I wasn't doing sermon prep time

[00:22:13] and then of course by Thursday you have to take it home because it's due on Sunday and your team wants

[00:22:19] Friday off so everybody loses I lose the congregation loses the production team loses my family loses

[00:22:26] because dad's not home present I'm behind my laptop so what I did and this was the big pivot

[00:22:32] and I'm so thankful God has used it to help literally probably a hundred thousand leaders at this point

[00:22:37] who have learned this system is I just said no more breakfast meetings in my green zone no more

[00:22:43] meetings in my green zone from seven to 11 a.m. I'm going to work on my message and what that meant

[00:22:49] is my name morning I just started on my message for Sunday and then soon I started getting ahead

[00:22:54] and now generally I'm working on a message for six weeks from now I'll have that message done

[00:23:01] and I got lots of other stuff in my workflow I'll have that message done a month before I preach it

[00:23:06] what that means is the week I'm preaching it yeah I'm going to review it I'm going to dust it off

[00:23:11] but the production team isn't wondering when is this coming down the pipe

[00:23:14] here my family isn't going to pay a price because I got a preach and I'll look at it probably

[00:23:20] you know the week of and then Sunday morning I'll get up at 4.45 I'll have my devotions I'll read

[00:23:27] through it and I'm good to go and the other thing that's really cool if you want to speak without

[00:23:32] using notes and we can talk about that is the longer you have for a message to internalize and digest

[00:23:39] in other words a week is better than day a month is better than a week you will be able to come back

[00:23:44] to that material and feel like it's old home content and you will be able to be free from your notes

[00:23:51] at a much greater rate than if you pulled it together Friday for Sunday delivery or Saturday for

[00:23:57] Sunday delivery delivery and the science behind that is it moves from your short-term memory to your

[00:24:02] long-term memory so in the same way that you can tell a story of what happened you know 10 years ago

[00:24:09] because you remember it well yeah you don't have to look at your notes for that right like you just

[00:24:13] know the story it will move to your long-term memory and you'll become much more comfortable with

[00:24:20] the material secondly this is weird and I'm not trying to play spiritual tricks here you will appear

[00:24:25] as though you have more authority and the reason you appear you have more authority is because you

[00:24:30] have a command of the topic because you've already internalized the message so I'm a huge fan

[00:24:36] of working ahead and by moving to my green zone moving my preaching to my green zone and allowing

[00:24:41] nothing else in it I get way ahead I internalize the message I'm free from my notes and I can just

[00:24:48] have a more effective conversation yeah and that spiritual authority it's you know it's actually

[00:24:53] doubled when you use the word you when you say you know this yeah that's this this has been and

[00:25:00] you know carry I wish I could say and I've implemented it perfectly I think I have I have this

[00:25:06] awareness of it and then sometimes I will be even rolling my eyes at myself and this vocabulary

[00:25:11] is kind of coming to my head where it's like I'm in a yellow zone doing what I should be doing

[00:25:16] in green zone or vice versa so you've you've helped me a little bit and then also given me the self

[00:25:21] condemnation that I need to know that I got to do better at this as well too hey I've had that too

[00:25:26] like and I'll be the first to say I don't follow my own system perfectly because life gets in

[00:25:31] the way some days are better than others right and some days I'm but what it comes down to

[00:25:38] is self discipline and just realizing like I now in the book which came out a couple of years ago

[00:25:44] I say don't unless you're trying out for the Olympics or professional sports don't you do your

[00:25:48] workouts in your green zone I've changed my mind on that I do my workouts in my green zone because

[00:25:54] I got onto a personal fitness journey about 18 months ago and I realized if I leave them till 430

[00:26:00] in my red zone guess what I'm not going to do my workout or I'm going to phone it in so now I make

[00:26:06] it early in the morning and I do it so it compromises my green zone a little bit a few days a week

[00:26:11] but I still find myself with higher energy then and then I write for two or three hours not four

[00:26:17] and most of the science would say you do unless you're under a deadline which preachers are kind

[00:26:22] of every week but I wouldn't advise this because it's going to create chronic stress for you

[00:26:26] unless you're under a deadline you probably have two to maybe three good hours of sermon work in

[00:26:33] you a day otherwise you start to lose focus otherwise you just want to get it done so you know

[00:26:40] spending two hours on it on Monday two or three hours on it Tuesday finishing it up Wednesday

[00:26:45] really good and then work on it a bit Thursday you can get ahead for your big idea for the next week

[00:26:51] and the next week and by the time you know well certainly long before the book came out for years

[00:26:58] I had been finishing my sermon series before I preached week one and what that allows you to do

[00:27:05] is now you're not just thinking about what do I do on Sunday you're thinking about okay where does

[00:27:10] this series go in part three where does it go in part four and what is my next series going to be

[00:27:16] and again that command of the topic because you're reading all day long you read something on

[00:27:22] online that you're like oh that would really fit in with the money series in two months or I'm

[00:27:26] doing relationships like I know I'm preaching on relationships and technology and specifically AI

[00:27:33] in January so I picked that subject in October and I've been collecting and gleaning articles things

[00:27:42] I've read because I know that's coming up and now when I turn my mind to writing that message

[00:27:47] this week I'm going to go into my file I'm going to see what's there I've I recorded a lot of ideas

[00:27:53] last week I'm going to capture them all there and again that gives me an advantage that I wouldn't

[00:27:58] have I think it's January 22nd I'm preaching it if I started on the 19th I've lost all of that but

[00:28:04] now I started two months in advance and I know I'm only preaching you know four times in the last three

[00:28:10] months that kind of thing yeah but if you do that as a preacher you can do that I had sermons when

[00:28:15] I was on the regular teaching schedule I had sermon ideas that were two or three years in advance

[00:28:21] like two or three years of sermon materials and you know then I would glean ideas and everything

[00:28:26] that I could just paste into that file I kept it never known so I'm a big fan of working ahead

[00:28:32] because you're going to produce your best material yeah thank you and I'm hearing the the bivocational

[00:28:39] preachers in my ears you know hypothetically and they're saying yeah well sure it's easy for you

[00:28:44] some of us don't have four months to work on this but you're saying this also works in

[00:28:49] in the in the thick of it this is not just something for like retired ex-preachers dipping in from

[00:28:54] time to time no I'm pulling from my notes from when I was in the trenches and um yeah I think

[00:29:00] I would say to buy vocational yes that was my full-time vacation vocation wasn't a vacation trust me

[00:29:06] vocation so I'm not I'm not saying that I understand I don't understand but what I can tell you

[00:29:12] and I've used voice memos on my phone I have an ever-note file that's just like sermon ideas I have

[00:29:18] one for a particular sermon I'm working on literally when you're on a run when you're in the car

[00:29:24] just dictate a voice memo to yourself transcribe it or put it in notes if you have an iPhone

[00:29:31] and then it's there when you need it because you know what happens like you listen to musicians

[00:29:36] and they often wake up with a tune in their head at three o'clock in the morning

[00:29:40] right and if they don't write it down or they don't have a recording device next to their bed

[00:29:45] they wake up at seven a.m. and it's gone and that's what happens to me is those insights and some of

[00:29:51] them have been really pivotal for me they're gone if I don't write them down in the moment

[00:29:56] yeah yeah well yeah thanks for that so on that on the kind of note

[00:30:01] yeah and this is the link in the show notes this is a great book I it's it's really helped me

[00:30:05] and I think they can help preachers and and I love how I think it's in chapter four or five

[00:30:10] like the example is given of like the stress of chapter three the stress of having to write a

[00:30:16] sermon every week that's compelling profound theologically deep accessible to new people original

[00:30:21] faithful funny and charming and I read that along I'm like oh yes what what pressure week on week

[00:30:28] and we get used to pressure only to have for 28 years yeah you know it wasn't much wasn't much

[00:30:33] yeah well then on kind of the idea of that weekly rhythm and I said grind earlier on

[00:30:38] it doesn't have to be a grind but sometimes it is so Cara I wonder if you've learned

[00:30:43] how to to take the grind out of it not from like a time management thing but how have you been

[00:30:49] able to like prepare a sermon for the benefit of other people that actually is beneficial for your own

[00:30:54] soul is it always kind of a depleting exercise or have you found how to personally be enriched

[00:31:00] in your sermon prep I think the only thing that's depleting about preaching for me is the actual

[00:31:06] delivery there's something about doing that for 35 or 40 minutes three times on a Sunday or twice

[00:31:12] on a Sunday that just takes up peace out of you I find the writing of it really energizing at times

[00:31:19] it can be frustrating if you're stuck on an idea or trying to be clear but what I found is

[00:31:27] working ahead for me and I had many people in my life who encouraged me to do that because I wasn't

[00:31:33] somebody who worked ahead for a long time that that took the grind out of it you know it takes

[00:31:38] away the pressure if you have a sermon ideas file and I could show you my sermon ideas file

[00:31:44] from a few years ago when I was preaching regularly I still have one for 2024 it's not very

[00:31:49] thick because I'm not going to preach much but it was mess it was a mess it just had random ideas in

[00:31:55] it and then I'd sit down once every six months or so try to organize them and I do a year end review

[00:32:02] and I would plot out my preaching and I did this for years for the next 12 months by probably

[00:32:09] September October November of the previous year now once in a while that would change uh oh we

[00:32:13] have a capital campaign or there was of course something in the world that happened that we needed

[00:32:18] to address but it was broad like we'll do a relationship series in January to kick things off

[00:32:23] then we're going to talk about money in February then we're going to do prayer in March then for Easter

[00:32:28] we're going to do this then in the summer we're doing the Psalms and then in the fall we're doing

[00:32:34] something on whatever grace and truth uh family series in October you know just broad strokes

[00:32:40] and the closer you get the more specific it becomes but think about the pressure that that

[00:32:45] takes off of I have to come up with something 50 times in the next year you already know

[00:32:50] you have a compass you know where you're going you don't have to come up with fresh content

[00:32:54] and then you can start collecting then you can start thinking of ideas putting them in your idea bank

[00:32:59] and your notes so that really took the grind away and then the other thing was just honestly

[00:33:04] freeing up my green zone because if I'm devoting that like you have to ask yourself okay what's the

[00:33:10] best use of your green zone well what when you do it repeatedly has the greatest results

[00:33:16] in your leadership so if you're a pastor for me that was a very small group of things it wasn't

[00:33:22] hospital visits um it wasn't uh it wasn't you know administration or answering email or

[00:33:29] filing expense reports I can do that in my yellow or red zone you know what it was for me

[00:33:34] it was making sure the vision was crystal clear and beautifully communicated

[00:33:39] making sure our team at the most senior levels was aligned reaching clear and compelling messages

[00:33:45] that worked for unchurched people and church people alike then that's about it like if I did those

[00:33:52] oh raising money as also I had to raise money make sure that we were financially going to be

[00:33:56] maybe be able to make it into another year if those four big things were done the church was fine

[00:34:04] if I let one of them go like our team isn't aligned very much or the vision isn't clear

[00:34:10] or my preaching is bad then then the wheel started to come off the bus but as long as I had

[00:34:16] those big four and so I would devote my green and my yellow zones to those four and then my red

[00:34:21] zones can take the other stuff like I can fill out an expense report at four o'clock in the afternoon

[00:34:25] get it in and chase down that receipt and we're done yeah yeah and and that yeah has there been

[00:34:34] times in sermon prep when you actually could kind of fill your soul being nourished by it so

[00:34:39] regardless of the time zone or the green zone like was it a rare occasion is it a rare occasion

[00:34:46] like is this a spiritual like faith building exercise or is it a job oh yeah I mean I tried back

[00:34:54] in 98 so I'd been in some form of full-time ministry for three years I realized that I was

[00:35:02] starting to fall into the trap of letting my devotion time become my sermon prep time and I flag

[00:35:10] that as a young leader as an occupational hazard I'm like if there's a good way to spiritually burn

[00:35:16] out or coast on fumes it would be by making sure I'm preaching on Roman 7 so therefore

[00:35:24] I'm reading Roman 7 in my personal time with God so I started to ask a question I would later

[00:35:29] articulate as if I was done with ministry today what would be left of my faith and you could argue

[00:35:37] now that I'm kind of done with ministry today I still see what I do now as a ministry but you know

[00:35:43] congregational ministry my faith is very much alive and that 1998 was a year I bought a one-year

[00:35:49] Bible and started reading through the Bible every year I'd done it a couple times before but I just

[00:35:54] made sure I'm going to do this so what I saw in that was that the main rejuvenation came in my

[00:36:00] personal devotions with God and my personal prayer life uh-huh and then there were times where

[00:36:07] you know God would really drop some pearls of wisdom on me when I was reading the text or having

[00:36:12] encounter with the text but I saw it as my job I saw it as my task that what I'm there is I'm

[00:36:18] laboring on behalf of a congregation that I love and serve and so it was less about me and more

[00:36:25] about how do I serve people not giving them what their itching years want to hear I read that first

[00:36:29] tube but like trying to understand what are they going through how are they struggling what do they

[00:36:36] need to hear from God and how can I faithfully deliver that and then and then the biggest part for me

[00:36:42] was how do I make it clear so because I've got all kinds of thoughts and I want the sermon to be about

[00:36:47] 17 things so then sometimes the angst would come in trying to boil it down to the one thing I'm

[00:36:53] going to talk about and then articulating it in a really clear way and there were definitely some

[00:36:58] incredible moments but the other thing I would say there were times where I was really passionate about

[00:37:03] a message and I'm like oh this is from God this is a direct download and then I preach it

[00:37:09] and there's crickets nothing yeah and then other times where I want to pull myself off the stage 20

[00:37:16] minutes into a 35 minute message going this is a disaster like I don't even know why I thought

[00:37:22] this was a good idea I've been you know and it wasn't like there was some major unconfessed sin in

[00:37:27] my life that wasn't just ordinary stuff it wasn't like there was just like this is a terrible

[00:37:32] message and then I would get emails and people stopping me going that was amazing and I'm like okay

[00:37:38] I haven't figured that out I don't know what it is so there are times where I thought it was a

[00:37:44] stinker and it turned out to be great and there were times where I thought it was amazing

[00:37:48] and not even my mom liked it so I don't know I can't figure that out yeah there's that mysterious

[00:37:53] aspect to this isn't it yeah we yeah we put in what we yeah we want to do the work but then ultimately

[00:38:00] God does what he is yeah and so I think we're terrible gauges now you know I still force myself to

[00:38:08] listen yeah to my messages and on my brave days to watch them because I think I'm awkward

[00:38:15] and you know I don't enjoy watching myself I've gotten used to listening to myself but I still

[00:38:20] don't really love it like I'd prefer to take a pass but I think I have to do that to try to

[00:38:26] figure out okay where am I making this message more difficult to hear than it needs to be and

[00:38:32] then where am I maybe connecting with people and how do I do more of that okay well this is yeah

[00:38:41] as we come to a close maybe the final question as you're preparing for January 22nd you're going

[00:38:48] to preach about AI and and a bunch of other stuff like what are you what are you hoping

[00:38:54] that is going to be a little bit better this time than the last time that you preach like what's

[00:38:59] like what's something that you as you've been listening as you've been watching yourself that you

[00:39:02] think like I gotta improve in this or or that was good I want to do that again but better

[00:39:08] preach with more heart yeah I preach with more heart I'm very good at preaching to the head

[00:39:14] and this is a relational I'm just pulling up my notes right now this is like very much a

[00:39:19] relational thing the other thing I'm very aware of I've been married 33 years I'm talking about

[00:39:25] dating I've never downloaded a dating app in my life I have no idea how they operate uh I you

[00:39:31] know dating so different than it was back when I was in school dating my wife so I'm kind of

[00:39:39] clueless and I also realize they're gonna look at me and there's a white guy in his late 50s telling

[00:39:44] me how to live my life so I have to stay out of the you know skinny jeans aren't anymore but the

[00:39:50] skinny jean jean pastor trying to be cool to the next generation I gotta stay out of that

[00:39:56] but I think I can speak from the heart I think I can speak authoritatively about how important

[00:40:02] relationships are and how they're kind of the secret sauce while at the same time understanding

[00:40:09] that yeah it's a really different world out there and it's gonna be a tough one I'm just trying

[00:40:14] to find my notes right now there it is I've got my sermon ideas almost ready to go sit in there

[00:40:21] yeah oh yeah so I've got like do you want to hear this biolabines yeah I haven't started writing yet

[00:40:27] and don't worry this won't be released until about February so there'll be no spoilers

[00:40:31] so this is all I'm beside stop nobody never listens to this anyway don't worry there's an article

[00:40:36] in the hustle on and I'll find the link to it on how you can communicate with the dead

[00:40:43] because people really miss the dead so that's relational okay and it's all using AI yeah okay yeah

[00:40:49] yeah yeah virtual sex bots why are people so devoted to their pets have pets replaced human

[00:40:56] relationships Scott Galloway has data on loneliness and how many friendships people actually have

[00:41:02] um oh yeah just a real comment I don't know this will go anywhere it could be a creative idea

[00:41:09] but you know when you're calling that 1 800 number that company and it's like you know if you want

[00:41:14] this press five it's like can I can I just talk to a human can I just talk to an actual person

[00:41:19] a couple of articles I don't know where these lead to oh the hustle saying that people aren't meeting

[00:41:26] on dating apps anymore they're meeting on Yelp and other apps like that I don't know I'll ask some

[00:41:32] Gen Z about that and then I got some notes which all of leads us to cancel culture you know what we do

[00:41:38] we cancel our friends and because we don't like them anymore but you know who got left us with

[00:41:43] the family and the church so uh you can't cancel your family I mean you can do that by building

[00:41:50] a boundary and the church is a really weird thing it's one of the only places in culture where

[00:41:56] you're gonna sit next to somebody who doesn't make the same amount of money doesn't live in the

[00:41:59] same neighborhood may not have your skin color doesn't have your preferences and likes because we

[00:42:04] have such a curated aspect to our friendships now that we basically you know Mike maybe all

[00:42:11] your friends have beards I don't know like maybe all my friends are clean shaven Dave Ramsey says

[00:42:16] you hang around with people who are within 15% of your current income well the church if it's doing

[00:42:23] its job is the opposite of that right and it's actual real community and it's what you need to live

[00:42:29] so none of that is a sermon but those are my notes with six weeks to spare heading into a sermon

[00:42:38] yeah what an insight and yeah if you were to start your prep on Thursday for the Sunday coming

[00:42:46] yeah you would either spend time looking for those cultural flashpoints or you'd be digging into

[00:42:51] the text and maybe not even enough time to dig in the text properly um so to have this I think

[00:42:58] you said I heard you say somewhere else that preaching is like stew the longer it simmers the better it

[00:43:02] is and you're kind of giving us a glimpse into some of the ingredients that have been simmering for a while

[00:43:08] and still have six yet six weeks yet to go yeah and you know why I don't know whether any of these ideas

[00:43:13] are gonna make the message I'm pretty sure cancel culture and family and leading into the church

[00:43:19] will make the message yeah and I don't know there I'm going old testament or new testament with

[00:43:23] this yet I'll sit down and study some texts and look at look at the text that probably is going

[00:43:30] to pop the most for a culture that doesn't know how to do relationship anymore and you know what by

[00:43:37] revisiting this I got to write down there's a story of an 18 year old it's gonna write down

[00:43:42] Cabo Press that was the conference I was at um where an 18 year old told me the story that I don't

[00:43:49] have time to relay but that might make it into the message too so again I got I got these random

[00:43:54] ideas you can see how simple it is oh overexposed anyway right I trust you one page one page and

[00:44:02] those are just ideas but now I don't go in and I stare at a blank screen and I'm like God what do

[00:44:07] you want me to do and I read all of that stuff but because I knew I was speaking about the subject

[00:44:13] I could write it down because I knew it was AI technology and relationships and what it's

[00:44:19] doing to our souls if if I picked that subject the week of I would have seen all this stuff on AI

[00:44:25] and relationships and would have forgotten it and deleted it by now yeah wouldn't even come back

[00:44:30] to me sure sure well that's great and you know this episode as I mentioned it's going to come out

[00:44:36] after you preach the sermon so I'll definitely have the have the link in the show notes if anyone

[00:44:40] wants to see what did we hear how is it actually get communicated so that'll be a really interesting

[00:44:45] just to save your inbox it's January 21st I think 21st second is a Monday so we're not we're not like

[00:44:52] some weird cult that just gets on Monday okay the first way I've been just looked at that you know

[00:44:57] when I was a preacher I knew every single Sunday for the entire year it's like strange skill set

[00:45:03] isn't I can still count by sevens with incredible skill yes well hey on that um I really appreciate

[00:45:09] this conversation has been it's been great to learn from you via books and podcasts but

[00:45:14] this conversation has been great and I'll have links I'm sure everyone already knows about the

[00:45:20] Carrey new half leadership podcast but if they don't I'll have a link in the show notes as well

[00:45:24] and yeah carry and appreciate your time and for the listeners of this show I hope that

[00:45:29] this conversation and all that we do help you to grow in your personal study and public proclamation

[00:45:33] of God's word thanks Carrey well that was that was really great thanks so much Carrey for opening

[00:45:41] up your heart and your life and even your files to me it's interesting to see the behind the scenes

[00:45:49] process of what's going into a sermon that you're working on and as I mentioned in the conversation

[00:45:58] the link for that sermon that Carrey at the time had not preached yet it's going to be waiting

[00:46:05] for you in the show notes so if you are curious and if you want to see how this turned out now having

[00:46:12] had that behind the scenes glimpse well make sure that you check out the show notes and they'll

[00:46:18] be a link to the sermon that Carrey was working on well I hope that you keep on listening uh next

[00:46:26] Tuesday there's a great conversation that I had with Brian Sinett Brian is a Irish leader

[00:46:35] he is a counselor he is a caring thoughtful wise insensitive Bible teacher and I really hope you

[00:46:45] get to hear this next conversation well anyway thanks so much for listening to this and I hope

[00:46:50] that this episode and all the way to it expositors collective help you to grow in your personal study

[00:46:56] and public acclamation of God's word this podcast is a part of CG and media a podcast network that

[00:47:02] points to Christ we are supported by listeners like you to help us create more great shows visit

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