God Doesn't Waste Pain (featuring Dillon Fawcett)

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Music.

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Part of this human experience is that we go through trials and we go through suffering.

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And it's really difficult in the middle of it to be able to look past it and

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say, this is still going to be for my good.

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Romans 5, it says, there's more to come. We continue to shout our praise even

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when we're hemmed in with troubles,

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because we know how troubles can develop passionate patience in us and how that

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passionate patience in turn forges the tempered steel of virtue,

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keeping us alert for whatever God will do next.

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In alert expectancy such as this, we're never left feeling shortchanged.

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Quite the contrary, we can't round up enough containers to hold everything God

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generously pours into our lives through the Holy Spirit.

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God bless the message translation that just says it so well.

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Well, but when we are in the middle of a transition, when we're in the middle

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of a season of change and it's difficult and it's hard, we don't really feel

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like we can shout our praise even when we're hemmed in with troubles.

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It's really hard to sense that there is more to come that will actually be for our good.

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If you are in a season of transition, I want you to hear Dylan Fawcett's story.

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Story and even Dylan has this beautiful perspective and he says that God does not waste our pain.

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If you are in that season, if you know somebody who is in that season,

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who is coming out of a ministry transition in a season that's difficult,

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this is an episode that you don't want to miss.

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Hey, my name is Matt Davis, and I'm here with the beautiful Marilee Davis.

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Hello, hello. Hello, hello.

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And we are here with also the beautiful Dylan Fawcett. Oh, thank you.

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It's good to be here. And for those of you who are only listening to the podcast,

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there's a lot to see here.

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I mean, Dylan, you are a good looking, beautiful man. I can say that and feel

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totally fine about it. Wish I'd say the same, Matt.

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Just kidding. Right back at you. Thank you.

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Dylan, who are you? Where are you? What are you doing with your life?

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Tell us a little bit about yourself. Oh man, that's such a big loaded question.

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So I am Dylan, like you said. I am currently a full-time stay-at-home dad,

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but I'm kind of waiting to get my licensure so I can be a full-time mental health

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counselor in the state of Iowa.

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And then part-time, I'm a woodworker. I have my own business.

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So that's really kind of what my life looks like.

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And of course, I'm a husband as well. I've got two kids, a three-year-old and

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a two-year-old, which they keep my life busy and tired. So, I'm kind of running

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on a few hours of sleep today.

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And we're on baby watch, right? So, any minute that baby can wake up,

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and we'll pause the interview and jump back in later.

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But we're ready for that. I have a question about woodworking.

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So, specifically, do you make furniture?

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What's your area of expertise? I've never met a woodworker before,

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so I'm curious to know what you make. If you're interested in more,

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I have a podcast about woodworking too.

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So wouldn't it be nice podcast? Check it out.

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Wouldn't it be nice? Wouldn't it be nice podcast? Our son who loves puns is

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going to be all over that. Oh, me too. I'm all about puns. All about them.

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I would tell you a carpentry joke, but I don't think it would work.

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Oh. Sorry. It would work if that is just all over the place. I went slow on that one.

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Yeah. To answer your question, I do pretty much everything. I do everything

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from like bottle openers, coasters, to custom pieces of furniture.

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Like TV stands and like cubby benches, bookshelves, pretty much anything.

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I'm open to- Can you help me with some shelves in my closets here?

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We're having some issues. They're all falling apart. Oh, I know.

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Are they the particle board stuff?

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No, it's the like wire things that you get at the depot. Oh, those are the worst.

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They're- They are the worst. They're awful. I might be beneath him.

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It sounds like he's got more, like there's an artistry and a- Yeah.

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More than just a shelf. But while it's beneath him, it's over me. me. I can't do it.

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Well, let's meet in the middle. We could talk about it. We'll talk about it after the podcast.

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Dylan, that's what you are doing today, but let's rewind the clock a little bit.

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And there was a time in your life where you were a pastor working in a church

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in vocational ministry.

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Tell us about that season of life. Yeah. I don't even know where to start.

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I'll just start from kind of the beginning of where I felt my call into ministry

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was I was a junior in high high school.

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And I really just felt this tug on my heart to, to share the gospel,

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to help other people find hope in life. Like I had found hope in Jesus.

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And that to me was, it took me a long time to process what that really truly

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meant, like vocationally.

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Cause I told my pastor, Hey, I feel like I may have a call to ministry called

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a pastor, pastoral ministry, but I'm not really sure.

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And he, what he told me was Dylan, if you can do anything besides being a pastor

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and be satisfied with it, do that thing.

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And I was like, that's kind of a weird thing for a pastor to say,

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but he, he knew how hard it is to be a pastor. It's not an easy thing you go into.

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It's not a fun career you join just because it's, Oh, this looks like a fun thing to do.

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You do it. And the money's really good. Yeah. And the money's great.

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Actually, funny thing are my, I was enrolled in the seminary for a while and

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the class saying was, I'm in it for the money.

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And they had it on a shirt. It was really funny because it was not true at all.

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So my pastor told me that and I was like, wow, that's okay. That makes me think about it.

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So long story short, fast forward to my junior year of college,

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I was enrolled in seminary.

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I've been a youth pastor part-time in college since my freshman year.

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So it was like three years youth pastor there.

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And I was leading some worship too at my my school and also at my church.

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So I did a lot of that. Oh yeah. So junior year comes around.

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I graduate from my undergrad like a year early. And that was when I could have

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gone into seminary at that moment.

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And I actually took, I think two or one or two seminary courses.

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And the seminary course that I took was caregiving.

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And it was like all about like caregiving in the midst of people having,

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going through grief or just traumas or whatever stuff.

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And I loved it, but all the other conversations I had leading up up to going

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to seminary with pastors and friends and just praying about it.

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I kind of realized that going to get my MDiv wasn't something that was for me

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at that moment in my life.

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So I didn't end up going to seminary, but I graduated, got married.

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And then like a month later, I got a job as a youth pastor.

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And then I was in ministry there at that church for 18 months. months.

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And yeah, I guess that's kind of, yeah, that's like a really spark note version of that story.

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But there was a lot of discernment and figuring out what am I supposed to do with my life?

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There was actually this book that I read too. This is kind of a funny story.

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I was sitting like a month before graduation, my undergrad, I was sitting in

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the library and I was freaking out about like, what am I supposed to do with my life?

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I have no idea what's going to happen. Because I just decided I'm not going to seminary.

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I didn't even know if I was going to be youth pastor at this point.

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I had experience with it. I had connections. There was opportunity,

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but I just wasn't quite sure what I was going to do.

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And I was sitting in the library freaking out about it. And I Googled,

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what am I supposed to do with my life?

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And a book came up by Johnny Moore. It's called What Am I Supposed to Do With My Life?

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And I watched a video of him talking about it. And he's talking about God's

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will and all that stuff. So I bought it.

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And it really changed my perspective a lot.

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And the main takeaway I got was God does not necessarily care about where we

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are, but who we are and the who we are impacts where we are, where we go,

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you know, where our heart is, that the state of our heart impacts our actions

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and our choices, which ultimately leads us to, you know, where we end up career wise,

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family wise, friendship wise, like everything. Right.

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So that is the most important thing to God. And that kind of like took a lot

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of pressure off me because I felt I had this responsibility.

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I had told all these people in my life that, oh, I'm going to graduate high

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school and I'm going to go and graduate college and become a pastor.

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And I had said that to so many people because at that point,

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that's what I thought I was going to do. I thought that's what ministry was.

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And through that, I just realized God cares deeply about the state of my heart,

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whether I'm a pastor or not.

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And as Christians, we all have this responsibility to minister to people and share the gospel.

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You know, the Great Commission, Matthew 25, go make disciples of all men,

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baptizing them in the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

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And all Christians have that responsibility and not just pastors.

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You'd be a janitor and have that same ministry calling.

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So I think when most people decide that they're going to become a pastor,

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I think it comes with a heavy weight because it's not like, I think I'm going

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to try this pastor thing out for a few years and then I'm going to move up the

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ladder and do something else.

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It's like kind of, if you think about being a pastor, it is almost like from

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the get-go, from the beginning, it feels like a lifetime commitment and calling.

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For you, that's not the case, as we know that you're already out of the church

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as far as ministry, vocational ministry goes.

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Tell me about your last day of ministry. We call it day zero. but what was that like?

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Was that something that you ended up initiating or was that initiated for you?

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That's a big question too.

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Leading up to that last day, my pastor set me aside and said,

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Dylan, if you don't leave voluntarily, you're going to be pushed out.

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And that was because of the church situation that I was in. Not because of me.

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And maybe it was because of me, because we're in a church that was very politically

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and theologically divided at the the time.

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And I just got thrown into that. I started when that mess was happening and

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it just continued to get worse.

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And I just had different viewpoints than a lot of the people that were in the

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church. And because of that.

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It was getting to the point where they just didn't want me around anymore,

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I think. At least some of them. Was this during the pandemic?

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It was right before pandemic.

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My last... Obviously, the pandemic really divided churches and like,

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are we going to wear masks, not wear masks? Oh, yeah. That kind of fun stuff. So, I didn't know.

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Oh, man. So, this is politics before even more politics, really. Yep.

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Yeah. I do want specifics on the denomination because I can totally give you

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them too, but it... No, not necessary. We're good. Okay. Okay.

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Well, so that was a big political thing that was happening for years.

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And it finally was, that was just a breaking point, I think,

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for a lot of people, a lot of churches.

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That was happening in 2018, 2019.

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And actually, my day zero was March 1st, 2020, which if you know,

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three weeks later, that's when everything was shut down.

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Right. So day zero, my wife and I were both hurting because the church for us,

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I have a hard time saying that it was all bad because it wasn't.

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There was certainly many blessings in it.

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And I look fondly on some of those memories, but then other memories bring up

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kind of triggering things and emotions. emotions, but day one was a really hard day.

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One, because I was grateful that I was kind of like moving on to the next chapter,

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but actually the very last day, my daughter was due a month later.

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So they actually had a baby shower for us my last Sunday there.

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So we left on really great terms. They gave us these gifts and gave us cards

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and the youth group wrote all these really loving cards to to me and like just

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really heartwarming things saying that they love me and they're sad to see me

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go. And that was really wonderful.

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And it meant so much to my wife and I, but it was also really hard because we

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felt like we needed some healing.

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So the next week, like March 8th, whatever day that was, we go to another church,

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go to that church again, and then COVID shuts everything down.

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So then we're like, crap, we don't have a church to go to.

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And that was about a year. We didn't have a home church for about a year,

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which was really hard because we needed to go into a place where we could just

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heal. excuse me, where we could just heal.

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So I'm curious too, for your, what a lot of people don't realize is that when

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a pastor loses their job,

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the family loses a job and it's a transition, not just for the person coming

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out of ministry, but it's really for the spouse and for the kids, for everybody.

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Obviously yours are really, your kids are really young, but what was that like for your spouse?

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And not that she's here, you can't speak for her, but I mean,

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I mean, I'm sure you guys wrestled and went through and was it mama bear coming

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out to protect you or was it like just mingling with you? Like how did that

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get processed between you two?

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You know, there was a lot of things that happened while we were there that Emily

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was very protective of me about.

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There's, you know, people said some things about me behind my back.

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They said things to my face.

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She was always very protective. She's a very loyal person. So if somebody comes

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against her people, she's, she's standing up for them, which that's,

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I just love that so deeply about her.

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And it, yeah, I guess the mama bear side did come out.

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Uh, she was very protective of me, but also she was hurting herself too,

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just cause that, that church really through the entire 18 months that we were

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there was not a great, great experience either for her. So yeah.

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It was really hard. And I'll say even to this day, I know that I still have healing.

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I can't speak for her and say that she still needs healing, but we've talked

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about it recently and we both are kind of under the same idea that,

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yeah, I think there's stuff we still have to process about it.

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Does that answer your question? Yeah, that's good.

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What did that, like, you know, in pastoral transitions, we're looking at that

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life after ministry through the lenses of career and coaching and figuring out

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like the money, like so finance coaching, and then the counseling pieces.

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But how do you just determine, like, did you have a career coach assigned to you?

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Did the church kind of give you, here's your last check, but also here's a package

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just try to help you beyond severance to be able to figure out what those next

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steps are going to look like? No, not really.

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But, but I did leading up to this, this leaving. So I actually had for about a year up to me leaving.

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It was probably about March of the 2019.

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I started to see my own therapist and through working through that stuff,

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I determined that I wanted to become a mental health counselor.

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And that was really because I loved my part of my job as youth pastor of just

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meeting one-on-one with students here in their stories and working with them

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and just, just helping them walk through their struggles,

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you know, not pushing them, not pulling them, but just walking through with

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them with, with, with them.

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And I determined when I left the church that I was going to start schooling.

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So timeline, March 1st, leave the church, April 8th, my daughter's born like May 25th or something.

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I start my first day of grad school as a mental health counselor.

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So I kind of had a plan of of action. Like I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave this church.

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It's really hard. I don't, I didn't really want to, but I was kind of like,

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I had to type of situation.

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But I told my pastor knew that I was going to go become a mental health counselor,

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at least go to school for it and see where it leads me.

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So there was that. I think my pastor was very supportive also of everything.

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I want to make that very clear. My pastor was great.

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And a lot of the other people were too. But yeah, I'd say I was pretty comfortable

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when I left because I knew what I was going to hop into.

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And I actually was able to get a full-time job as a delivery driver.

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Actually, a week before I left the church, I had that job started.

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So the church did not provide me any sort of extra support in that way,

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but I had to figure it out because I had enough time to really process it.

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It wasn't an instant cutoff.

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It was kind of a buildup to it. it. So you had said that when you were in high

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school, you felt like you got the call from the Lord to pastor.

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Was there a, was there some kind of internal struggle when you realized that

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you were moving out of pastoring or had you kind of reconciled that?

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What was your, what was the dynamic like between you and the Lord in terms of

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figuring out those next steps? You guys ask That's such good questions.

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Yes. There was a lot of wrestling because I had made a commitment to myself,

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my family, like all these people.

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I had shared my story with so many people of how I really became serious in

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my faith and how God had called me to be a pastor.

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And so much discernment had to happen. And then I finally decided,

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I don't think this pastoral thing is the thing for me, at least at this point in my life.

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And that was really hard because I was like, am I going to let my family down?

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Am I going to let my wife down? Am I going to let my friends down?

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All the people that I said, I'm going to be a pastor. And they're like,

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yeah, you're going to be a great pastor. We love you in that position.

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And it's like, man, now that I'm leaving this, people are just going to look

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at me as a phony now and say.

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I just, yeah, it was hard, but ultimately I had to trust, okay,

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God, like maybe being a pastor is not the ministry you're calling me to,

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but I still believe you're calling me to some sort of ministry.

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And again, it comes back to the Great Commission. We all have this responsibility

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as Christians to do ministry in our lives.

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And I just had to figure out what that was. Yeah. Or it's both.

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He did call you into pastoring and into ministry, and it was for a season.

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And then you were discerning enough to realize, okay, I think the calling,

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the assignment has changed. We're pivoting away from full-time vocational ministry

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into something else. Yeah.

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Actually, what you guys said in an earlier episode was, Matt,

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you were talking about assignment versus calling.

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And I think that's really accurate, what you just said, Marilee,

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about it was an assignment, And it was called to that assignment,

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but that was just, that was what it was.

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It was just the assignment of being the pastor for that period.

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So for somebody who's coming out of ministry, vocational ministry,

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because we believe that just because you're not a pastor anymore that you stop doing ministry, right?

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Like we're just going to leave ministry to the paid professionals and everybody

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else gets to, you know, tag along on Sunday mornings.

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But there is a, and I think this progression of going from orientation to disorientation

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to reorientation, this new normal.

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What do you say to somebody who's coming out of ministry and they are in that

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wilderness season of disorientation?

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Like, what's the lesson to be learned?

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And not that, you know, I think it's okay if you're still in the wilderness.

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I think I have days and times, probably more often than not,

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where I feel like I'm still wandering in the wilderness saying,

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Lord, I long for the promised land, and I feel like I'm close. Why can't I get there?

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Yeah. Oh, man. The biggest lesson I learned through all this God really put

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on my heart was sometimes the reasons for why we're in a place,

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the reasons why we perceive we're in a place, are different from why the reason God has us in a place.

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And ultimately he knows best

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and i mean that's up you know you had to

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put your faith in that that he knows best but also the

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things that we the hard situations that we pray that god would change he's using

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to change us so it's like this like the refining of the gold that's talked about

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in the old testament that you would be tested so that you would be purified

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and there's this idea of the sanctification that's happening.

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So like you're going through this hard time, but know that even if your journey

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doesn't go where you thought it would.

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God, again, He cares so deeply about the state of your heart that it doesn't

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really matter necessarily where you are, but who you are and what God's doing right now.

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Is He using this state of your life to help you grow? And I believe the answer is always yes.

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But we can also look at it and say, we can let the challenge defeat us or we can let it grow us.

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I don't know. I guess that's the thing that I really took away from that is

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that God used this really challenging point in my life to really bring me to where I am today.

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And I'm really grateful for where I am today. I'm really happy with where my

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career is going and what God's doing in my life with my family and kids and job and everything.

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And I wouldn't be here without the pain that I walked through.

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How has your experience in exiting vocational ministry,

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how has that helped you to have, well, I'm assuming you're a naturally compassionate

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person because of you were in pastoring and now you're entering into counseling.

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So you obviously have a lot of empathy and compassion for people.

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I'm trying to figure out what my question is. So you have authority to speak

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sort of on, can you, for someone listening who's feeling kind of stuck,

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how would you, what would you say to them?

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Sometimes the hardest moments in our life Life, actually I'd say there's always opportunity.

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The hardest moments of our life can be the moments that help you grow the most,

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and to embrace the pain and the struggle because God does not waste that pain.

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He doesn't look past it and he doesn't say, oh, he's suffering.

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I'm going to let him continue to suffer and let nothing good come out of it.

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But we know that God cares deeply and he sees us in our pain.

00:22:12
And we see that in Jesus in the, in the gospels where he'll see people,

00:22:17
what is it? There's a scripture that says Jesus's heart went out to this person

00:22:23
and he has this compassion for them and compassion.

00:22:27
The struggle we see in the Bible, we struggle to see in our own lives.

00:22:30
God doesn't look past it.

00:22:31
He sees it and his heart goes out to us and his heart breaks for our pain.

00:22:38
And I think just remembering that in the midst of it, at least for me, has been so helpful.

00:22:43
And with my clients, I'll say that. I'll say that very thing that you might

00:22:48
be going through a really hard moment, but it doesn't have to defeat you.

00:22:53
It can actually help you grow into the person that God really would have you to be.

00:22:58
And it's going to be for your benefit eventually, even if you can't see it right now.

00:23:02
Yeah. There's always this, I don't know if you remember Francis Chan,

00:23:06
the pastor, but he tells the story of the grasshopper.

00:23:09
I don't know if you remember the grasshopper story, but he pulls from Isaiah

00:23:12
40 and says that it is he, it is God who sits above the circle of the earth

00:23:16
and we, its inhabitants are like grasshoppers.

00:23:18
And he talks about the story of a grasshopper who wants to go see his mom and

00:23:22
he hits this wall and can't get around it, can't go over it, can't go through it,

00:23:27
but just the banging his head against the wall of I want what I want and I can't

00:23:33
get there and God feels very cruel because I can't get what I want.

00:23:37
And he pulls Isaiah 40 and he says, God sits above it all. God sits above the circle of the earth.

00:23:43
He sees our problems and we're like these little grasshoppers.

00:23:45
And so, you know, as Francis tells it is.

00:23:49
That the grasshopper, he's a Christian grasshopper. So he prays and says,

00:23:53
God, if it's your will, then help me knock this wall down.

00:23:57
But really he opens his eyes and the door opens and he sees on the other side of the wall is his mom.

00:24:02
And he realizes if I got what I wanted, I would have down that wall and it would

00:24:06
have crushed my grasshopper mom on the other side.

00:24:08
And I think, and I bump up against that wall. It's been a big picture for me

00:24:12
of just hitting my head against the wall and saying, God, you see this and still

00:24:18
like, what's going on? What is happening in this scenario?

00:24:21
I know you see the other side of the wall, but I can't see the other side of the wall.

00:24:25
And I need wisdom and I need patience, man. I need lots of patience to be able

00:24:29
to get through those moments.

00:24:31
But I agree with you that it is in those moments.

00:24:35
We hate them in the moment, but looking back, they've built a resiliency.

00:24:41
They've built a strength.

00:24:42
An upcoming guest that we have on the podcast. And he wrote a book called Refined by the Fired.

00:24:49
Not just the fire, but Refined by the Fired. And it was his own story of coming

00:24:53
out. It's in our recommended reading, but it's his own story of coming out of

00:24:57
ministry and having that be a refining moment.

00:25:00
And so as we wrap, I'm just curious, and we've danced around this a little bit,

00:25:05
but life after ministry, you are experiencing it. Is there life after ministry?

00:25:10
Is it good? and have the trials, disorientation, the wilderness that you've

00:25:15
walked through, do you see God's hand in it where you're at?

00:25:18
And it hasn't been that long. It's not like it was a decade ago.

00:25:21
It's still in the last couple of years, but... It's still pretty fresh,

00:25:24
yeah. Yeah, it's still fresh.

00:25:26
Yeah, like I said, I think there's still healing that has to be done,

00:25:29
but absolutely there's life after ministry. I mean...

00:25:34
I have this quote here. Joy is always possible, but that doesn't mean we don't

00:25:39
make our way to gratitude slowly and through a valley of tears.

00:25:43
And that's actually Mike Donahue in his book, Finding God's Life for My Will.

00:25:48
Really, really good book. Recommend it. But he talks about how we can experience

00:25:53
pain and joy in the same breath, just as Paul talks about it.

00:25:57
And that's really the last few years of my journey is just trying to heal from

00:26:01
From the pain I went through, the journey of just trying to discern what my

00:26:06
life is supposed to be, what vocation do I go into, the state of my heart, right?

00:26:11
And God's taught me that joy is possible through gratitude.

00:26:16
You know, thanking God for what he's given me ultimately.

00:26:20
Even the pain, even thanking God for the pain because ultimately that pain has

00:26:24
led me to being stronger. And what's that verse, endurance leads to,

00:26:30
or do you know what I'm talking about? You're a pastor, Matt. Yeah.

00:26:34
Former pastor. Former pastor, right. Yeah. You know what I'm talking about? What is that verse?

00:26:40
Yeah, yeah. Trials that bring about patience. Bingo. That bring about endurance. Yes.

00:26:44
Perseverance. All that stuff, yeah. Yes. It's in the New Testament somewhere.

00:26:48
It's funny. Yeah, it's in there.

00:26:50
Yeah. I don't even know if I answered your question. No. No,

00:26:53
absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. There's life after ministry.

00:26:56
It's hard, but it's there.

00:26:59
So, okay. I have a question. So you mentioned a couple of times that you came

00:27:03
to the transition with wounds that you needed healing.

00:27:07
And I was just wondering if you could speak a little bit more specifically as

00:27:11
to what was hurting and what you were processing coming out of this particular transition.

00:27:18
Are you my therapist? Is this what's happening? Have a seat on the couch here.

00:27:22
Oh, yeah, that's so good.

00:27:24
And then when I was going through it, I actually felt like there was some anger

00:27:28
towards God for allowing me to go through this pain. And yeah.

00:27:33
Okay. So flesh that out a little bit. Cause I think that's an important. Yeah.

00:27:37
It's like, okay, God, if you called me to be a pastor, you called me to be in

00:27:41
this position, then why would you put me through so much of this?

00:27:44
This, to me, it seemed like unnecessary pain at the time.

00:27:48
And I think the lesson that I learned was ultimately that God uses that pain. He doesn't waste it.

00:27:52
But I was, I think recently the last year or so, I've really been able to process

00:27:58
that and heal in that way.

00:27:59
Just realizing that God didn't waste any of that pain that I I went through.

00:28:03
But while I was leaving, I was, I think, pretty angry about it.

00:28:07
I didn't really feel joyful about leaving because I didn't really want to leave.

00:28:12
I was experiencing pain when I was there, but I was also like,

00:28:15
I think I kind of want to keep going because I love the youth ministry.

00:28:20
I love the kids and I didn't want to leave them.

00:28:23
I think part of me was like, man, if I leave, then who's going to come in and

00:28:26
take my place and who's going to teach them the truth?

00:28:29
And I had a a hard time trusting God that, you know, leaving the people that

00:28:33
you're shepherding is like a really hard thing to do.

00:28:35
And I felt there's some anger towards God, I think, and maybe towards myself

00:28:40
for the situation that I was in.

00:28:43
And I think recently I'm actually processing a lot more and I've talked to my

00:28:47
counselor about it even recently too, just about this stuff, how to heal from this.

00:28:53
And I still feel like there's some bitterness in my heart a bit towards it.

00:28:58
And And actually, I noticed, and this is really vulnerable for me,

00:29:00
but I noticed when I left ministry that my devotion, my personal devotion almost halted.

00:29:07
And I think it's because of the anger that I had. I just felt,

00:29:11
I don't know if I'd say betrayed because even in the midst of it,

00:29:14
I had faith that God knew what he was doing, but that doesn't make it any less easy.

00:29:18
And I think my humanness, my emotions got the best of me.

00:29:21
And I stopped reading the Bible really for a long time. time.

00:29:25
And again, like the last year or so has been really healing for me.

00:29:29
And I think there's still healing to be done in that, in my personal relationship with God.

00:29:34
It's almost because you look back and you're like, I don't know if my relationship,

00:29:39
like at one point when I was a youth pastor, when I started youth pastoring,

00:29:43
I felt my relationship with God was really good.

00:29:45
But going through that situation taught me so much and showed me so much about

00:29:50
myself and so so much about God's character, but it also kind of left me feeling

00:29:55
like, man, like, I don't know if I'm as strong in my faith as I once was.

00:29:59
And especially in my own personal devotion, I feel like it's been so weak.

00:30:03
And then you throw on responsibilities of being a dad and working full time

00:30:07
and all the other things in life.

00:30:08
It makes, it's really hard to be devoted like that.

00:30:12
And I'm still building up to a point where I'm comfortable, like,

00:30:15
oh, I feel good about my relationship with God.

00:30:18
Cause I still feel like there's some, some disconnect there at some points.

00:30:23
Yeah. Does that answer your question? Yeah, totally.

00:30:27
And, and do you think that it sounds like your trust in God was impacted?

00:30:32
Like that he had you in a place and understand why he would put you there and

00:30:39
just to take you out? Yeah.

00:30:40
Especially when you didn't agree and you didn't want to go.

00:30:43
Has that, has that impacted you moving into this next season of life with this next career?

00:30:49
Does it like, does it push that trust button?

00:30:53
I feel like God's definitely given me the gift of faith in the midst.

00:30:57
It's like, yes. The answer is yes to that question is I think it has impacted my trust.

00:31:02
I went in, who's the character of the Bible who's like, here I am, Lord, send me.

00:31:08
I'm like this willing guy, send me, I'm going to do it, whatever it takes.

00:31:13
And then I was thrown into the fire, it felt like, and it was just really hard.

00:31:16
And now I'm really hesitant.

00:31:18
I'm here, God, but I don't know if I want you to send me. and

00:31:22
but again it's the the stepping stepping

00:31:25
out in faith martin luther king has a quote that i

00:31:28
love it's faith is taking the next step even

00:31:31
when you can't see the staircase and that's where i kind of feel like i'm at

00:31:34
right now with even becoming like a full-time christian counselor is i think

00:31:38
this is really a good fit for me because i loved it as an intern and i'm still

00:31:42
at the same office as i was but there is that doubt of me like what if this

00:31:46
is just as hard and if not worse than where I was?

00:31:50
And what if it ends up being the same thing where I feel like I get crushed?

00:31:54
And there's a little bit of fear that it's going to happen again in this situation.

00:31:58
Even if it's not a church, it's still an organization that could hurt me because

00:32:02
it's built out of people, right?

00:32:04
So it's, yeah. I think a lot of the struggle of daily life as a believer is

00:32:09
just like, Lord, I believe, but help my unbelief.

00:32:12
We kind of live in this place of tension of like, Like, I do believe,

00:32:16
like, I know that you have a good plan for me.

00:32:18
I know you can be trusted. And

00:32:21
yet, like, there's this part of me that's like, oh, you hurt last time.

00:32:25
I want to trust you. I want to be vulnerable.

00:32:28
But I think that's just human that we're afraid of.

00:32:32
And we don't need the church to get hurt. You know, I was hurt when Subway fired me as a teenager.

00:32:38
Subway, please don't sue us.

00:32:42
You know, so we, but, but because it's so acute and because it's coming from

00:32:47
a community that should be family.

00:32:49
That that's the extra sting and we've poured, it's not just,

00:32:53
we clocked in nine to five, but it's been, you know, blood and sweat and tears in all of that.

00:32:59
And what happens when the pastor, the man of God, the leader,

00:33:03
you know, the leader of the people finds himself in a crisis of faith and a

00:33:07
crisis of trust and the sense of like, I can't put my money where my mouth is.

00:33:12
Like, I'm not sure that my faith is actually strong enough to live out what

00:33:17
I've been preaching in this hard season.

00:33:20
Eugene Peterson says that every pastor is a theologian. We need somebody.

00:33:25
I actually have a friend in Texas, and he says, every pastor needs a pagan.

00:33:30
And he says, I'm the pagan that they hang out with.

00:33:32
But I'm not necessarily sure that that's the best quote. Yeah,

00:33:35
it might not be. I'm not just in danger associated with that.

00:33:41
Well, something that comes up, When I was leaving that church and I was searching

00:33:46
for a new church, a quote that I heard on the internet, it was like a video

00:33:49
I saw. I don't know what pastor it was, otherwise I'd give him credit.

00:33:51
But he said, if you ever find a perfect church, don't go there because you'll ruin it.

00:33:57
It's just because the church is made out of broken people and no church is going

00:34:00
to be perfect. But that's kind of the point though, right? That's the point of Jesus.

00:34:05
He loves us in our imperfectness. We are his flawless bride,

00:34:10
even if we are sinful and broken because he died for us.

00:34:13
So, amen. And going into the therapy world and as you've been meeting with people.

00:34:18
You're still doing ministry even in the counseling room. Is that right?

00:34:21
Yes. Yeah. And I work at a Christian office.

00:34:24
So we really, we advertise as being, we're Christian therapists who want to

00:34:29
help you work through spiritual issues, anxiety, depression,

00:34:33
just from a Christian perspective.

00:34:35
So that's ultimately where my call to ministry led was being a Christian counselor.

00:34:41
Counselor and I'm actually, I'm able to work with youth in the church.

00:34:46
I'm still, and I love like middle school, highest age kids, high school age kids.

00:34:51
I love them. That's like my, I don't know why God's put this love in my heart

00:34:55
for them, but I just love working with those kids.

00:34:57
And so I'm able to do that counseling still and, and actually work with some

00:35:03
pastors to work through the pain that they're experiencing with transitioning

00:35:08
or just, just the pain of of being a pastor.

00:35:10
So that's my ministry that I feel God's ultimately led me to.

00:35:14
And it wouldn't, I wouldn't have really had the, as clear of a vision of it

00:35:18
now, if I didn't go through what I went through.

00:35:21
So yeah, ministry is still happening after ministry.

00:35:25
Dylan, if somebody wants to just follow you and your story, the, wouldn't it be nice?

00:35:30
We'll put all this in the show notes as well, but how can people connect with

00:35:34
what you're doing in your world today?

00:35:36
Yeah. Well, if you want to follow me, I've got my business page,

00:35:40
Fawcett underscore Woodcraft on Instagram, TikTok.

00:35:43
And then I've got another podcast too, called the Wouldn't It Be Nice Podcast.

00:35:48
And you can find that anywhere you find podcasts. I'm actually,

00:35:52
I can't tell you what the name of the podcast is going to be yet because we

00:35:55
don't know yet, but I am starting another podcast too.

00:35:57
And it's going to be a Christian podcast talking about discipling and reaching

00:36:03
the younger generation. So it's in the works.

00:36:07
It's kind of still being really built right now.

00:36:13
Kind of sounds like ministry after ministry though, right?

00:36:16
Yeah. Yeah, I like it. Dylan, thanks for sharing your story.

00:36:20
I'm thankful that God has brought you through the season and you're still in

00:36:24
a season. Who knows what seasons are to come?

00:36:27
But in all of that, God is good and thankful for our paths crossing today.

00:36:31
Yeah, thank you, Matt and Marilee. Thank you so much for having me.

00:36:34
It was a joy to be able to share my story.

00:36:37
I hope that, you know, even one person is able to hear it and have them help

00:36:40
it, help them in one small piece, if possible.

00:36:44
So thank you. Yep. Amen.

00:36:48
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Life After Ministry podcast.

00:36:52
As we wrap up today, we want to acknowledge something that we hear all too often.

00:36:58
It's this weight of uncertainty and this question that looms large for many is, what will I do next?

00:37:05
Every week we talk with Christian leaders grappling with this very question.

00:37:09
Leaders who are navigating what can often feel like a wilderness season.

00:37:14
And they're searching for direction, feeling a bit lost, trying to make sense

00:37:18
of the unexpected turns their journey has taken.

00:37:22
And we understand that this transition feels overwhelming. The fear and uncertainty

00:37:27
can be paralyzing, and it's a path that is really filled with more questions

00:37:33
than answers and with more silence than direction.

00:37:37
Recognizing this need, we have established a nonprofit arm at Pastoral Transitions.

00:37:43
Our goal is to come alongside pastors and Christian leaders in this season of

00:37:49
transition to be able to offer a hand when the path feels unclear and the future feels uncertain.

00:37:55
We want to be able to say we can still help you. But to be able to continue

00:37:59
this work, to extend the support, we need your help.

00:38:03
If our podcast has touched your heart, if you believe in what we are doing,

00:38:07
then we invite you to be part of this mission.

00:38:10
Consider making a donation to support these Christian leaders.

00:38:14
Your contribution can help provide hope and healing that these pastors and their

00:38:18
families desperately need as they're seeking out what their next season might

00:38:22
be. We help in the areas of career and coaching and counseling.

00:38:27
Visit pastoraltransitions.com and you can make a difference today.

00:38:31
Your generosity can help light the way for those who are walking through their

00:38:36
own wilderness and we can help guide them towards a future filled with hope.

00:38:40
Thank you for joining us on the Life After Ministry podcast.

00:38:43
And until next time, keep seeking, keep trusting, and remember even in this

00:38:48
wilderness season that you're never walking alone.

00:38:51
Music.