Summary
In this episode of the "Life After Ministry" podcast, Dillon Fawcett candidly shares his unique journey, transitioning from pastoral ministry and his entry point into the world of mental health counseling. With honesty and vulnerability, Dillon opens up about the ups and downs he experienced, the transitions that challenged him, and the invaluable lessons he's learned. His story is a powerful testament to the truth that life doesn't end after ministry – in fact, it can take on new, meaningful forms. Dillon's insights remind us that our pain and struggles are not in vain - they're instruments used by God to shape and refine us.
Takeaways
-
Post-Ministry Life: Transitioning out of ministry is challenging, yet it opens the door to new beginnings and avenues of purpose.
-
Transformative Pain: Our struggles and pain can be the very experiences that catalyze personal growth and transformation.
-
God's Refinement: God is intimately involved in our lives, using our challenges to refine our hearts and align us with His purpose.
-
Ministry in Many Forms: Ministry isn't confined to the pulpit – avenues like counseling can be just as impactful in serving and guiding others.
-
Joy and Trust in God: Finding joy and purpose in life's next chapter hinges on gratitude and a deep trust in God's overarching plan.
Chapters
00:00 - Introduction and Dillon's Background
03:01 - Exploring Woodworking and Business Ventures
07:24 - Reflections on Pastoral Ministry
10:46 - The Emotional Landscape of Transitioning Out of Ministry
15:13 - Discovering Life and Purpose After Ministry
19:56 - Wilderness Lessons: Growth Amidst Challenges
22:44 - Supporting Others Facing Similar Transitions
26:06 - Unearthing Joy and Purpose in New Paths
29:20 - Continuing the Ministry Journey through Counseling
30:35 - Upcoming Projects and Podcast Plans
31:08 - Conclusion: Embracing the Journey Ahead
00:00:00
Music.
00:00:08
Part of this human experience is that we go through trials and we go through suffering.
00:00:14
And it's really difficult in the middle of it to be able to look past it and
00:00:20
say, this is still going to be for my good.
00:00:24
Romans 5, it says, there's more to come. We continue to shout our praise even
00:00:29
when we're hemmed in with troubles,
00:00:31
because we know how troubles can develop passionate patience in us and how that
00:00:37
passionate patience in turn forges the tempered steel of virtue,
00:00:42
keeping us alert for whatever God will do next.
00:00:45
In alert expectancy such as this, we're never left feeling shortchanged.
00:00:49
Quite the contrary, we can't round up enough containers to hold everything God
00:00:55
generously pours into our lives through the Holy Spirit.
00:01:00
God bless the message translation that just says it so well.
00:01:04
Well, but when we are in the middle of a transition, when we're in the middle
00:01:08
of a season of change and it's difficult and it's hard, we don't really feel
00:01:13
like we can shout our praise even when we're hemmed in with troubles.
00:01:17
It's really hard to sense that there is more to come that will actually be for our good.
00:01:24
If you are in a season of transition, I want you to hear Dylan Fawcett's story.
00:01:29
Story and even Dylan has this beautiful perspective and he says that God does not waste our pain.
00:01:38
If you are in that season, if you know somebody who is in that season,
00:01:41
who is coming out of a ministry transition in a season that's difficult,
00:01:46
this is an episode that you don't want to miss.
00:01:50
Hey, my name is Matt Davis, and I'm here with the beautiful Marilee Davis.
00:01:53
Hello, hello. Hello, hello.
00:01:55
And we are here with also the beautiful Dylan Fawcett. Oh, thank you.
00:01:59
It's good to be here. And for those of you who are only listening to the podcast,
00:02:03
there's a lot to see here.
00:02:05
I mean, Dylan, you are a good looking, beautiful man. I can say that and feel
00:02:08
totally fine about it. Wish I'd say the same, Matt.
00:02:12
Just kidding. Right back at you. Thank you.
00:02:15
Dylan, who are you? Where are you? What are you doing with your life?
00:02:18
Tell us a little bit about yourself. Oh man, that's such a big loaded question.
00:02:22
So I am Dylan, like you said. I am currently a full-time stay-at-home dad,
00:02:28
but I'm kind of waiting to get my licensure so I can be a full-time mental health
00:02:33
counselor in the state of Iowa.
00:02:35
And then part-time, I'm a woodworker. I have my own business.
00:02:37
So that's really kind of what my life looks like.
00:02:39
And of course, I'm a husband as well. I've got two kids, a three-year-old and
00:02:44
a two-year-old, which they keep my life busy and tired. So, I'm kind of running
00:02:49
on a few hours of sleep today.
00:02:51
And we're on baby watch, right? So, any minute that baby can wake up,
00:02:55
and we'll pause the interview and jump back in later.
00:02:59
But we're ready for that. I have a question about woodworking.
00:03:04
So, specifically, do you make furniture?
00:03:09
What's your area of expertise? I've never met a woodworker before,
00:03:13
so I'm curious to know what you make. If you're interested in more,
00:03:18
I have a podcast about woodworking too.
00:03:19
So wouldn't it be nice podcast? Check it out.
00:03:22
Wouldn't it be nice? Wouldn't it be nice podcast? Our son who loves puns is
00:03:26
going to be all over that. Oh, me too. I'm all about puns. All about them.
00:03:30
I would tell you a carpentry joke, but I don't think it would work.
00:03:35
Oh. Sorry. It would work if that is just all over the place. I went slow on that one.
00:03:42
Yeah. To answer your question, I do pretty much everything. I do everything
00:03:45
from like bottle openers, coasters, to custom pieces of furniture.
00:03:51
Like TV stands and like cubby benches, bookshelves, pretty much anything.
00:03:57
I'm open to- Can you help me with some shelves in my closets here?
00:04:00
We're having some issues. They're all falling apart. Oh, I know.
00:04:03
Are they the particle board stuff?
00:04:05
No, it's the like wire things that you get at the depot. Oh, those are the worst.
00:04:08
They're- They are the worst. They're awful. I might be beneath him.
00:04:11
It sounds like he's got more, like there's an artistry and a- Yeah.
00:04:16
More than just a shelf. But while it's beneath him, it's over me. me. I can't do it.
00:04:23
Well, let's meet in the middle. We could talk about it. We'll talk about it after the podcast.
00:04:28
Dylan, that's what you are doing today, but let's rewind the clock a little bit.
00:04:32
And there was a time in your life where you were a pastor working in a church
00:04:37
in vocational ministry.
00:04:39
Tell us about that season of life. Yeah. I don't even know where to start.
00:04:43
I'll just start from kind of the beginning of where I felt my call into ministry
00:04:47
was I was a junior in high high school.
00:04:48
And I really just felt this tug on my heart to, to share the gospel,
00:04:53
to help other people find hope in life. Like I had found hope in Jesus.
00:04:59
And that to me was, it took me a long time to process what that really truly
00:05:04
meant, like vocationally.
00:05:06
Cause I told my pastor, Hey, I feel like I may have a call to ministry called
00:05:11
a pastor, pastoral ministry, but I'm not really sure.
00:05:14
And he, what he told me was Dylan, if you can do anything besides being a pastor
00:05:19
and be satisfied with it, do that thing.
00:05:21
And I was like, that's kind of a weird thing for a pastor to say,
00:05:24
but he, he knew how hard it is to be a pastor. It's not an easy thing you go into.
00:05:29
It's not a fun career you join just because it's, Oh, this looks like a fun thing to do.
00:05:33
You do it. And the money's really good. Yeah. And the money's great.
00:05:36
Actually, funny thing are my, I was enrolled in the seminary for a while and
00:05:39
the class saying was, I'm in it for the money.
00:05:44
And they had it on a shirt. It was really funny because it was not true at all.
00:05:48
So my pastor told me that and I was like, wow, that's okay. That makes me think about it.
00:05:54
So long story short, fast forward to my junior year of college,
00:05:58
I was enrolled in seminary.
00:06:00
I've been a youth pastor part-time in college since my freshman year.
00:06:04
So it was like three years youth pastor there.
00:06:06
And I was leading some worship too at my my school and also at my church.
00:06:12
So I did a lot of that. Oh yeah. So junior year comes around.
00:06:15
I graduate from my undergrad like a year early. And that was when I could have
00:06:19
gone into seminary at that moment.
00:06:21
And I actually took, I think two or one or two seminary courses.
00:06:25
And the seminary course that I took was caregiving.
00:06:29
And it was like all about like caregiving in the midst of people having,
00:06:33
going through grief or just traumas or whatever stuff.
00:06:37
And I loved it, but all the other conversations I had leading up up to going
00:06:42
to seminary with pastors and friends and just praying about it.
00:06:46
I kind of realized that going to get my MDiv wasn't something that was for me
00:06:51
at that moment in my life.
00:06:52
So I didn't end up going to seminary, but I graduated, got married.
00:06:56
And then like a month later, I got a job as a youth pastor.
00:07:00
And then I was in ministry there at that church for 18 months. months.
00:07:05
And yeah, I guess that's kind of, yeah, that's like a really spark note version of that story.
00:07:12
But there was a lot of discernment and figuring out what am I supposed to do with my life?
00:07:18
There was actually this book that I read too. This is kind of a funny story.
00:07:23
I was sitting like a month before graduation, my undergrad, I was sitting in
00:07:28
the library and I was freaking out about like, what am I supposed to do with my life?
00:07:32
I have no idea what's going to happen. Because I just decided I'm not going to seminary.
00:07:36
I didn't even know if I was going to be youth pastor at this point.
00:07:39
I had experience with it. I had connections. There was opportunity,
00:07:42
but I just wasn't quite sure what I was going to do.
00:07:44
And I was sitting in the library freaking out about it. And I Googled,
00:07:47
what am I supposed to do with my life?
00:07:50
And a book came up by Johnny Moore. It's called What Am I Supposed to Do With My Life?
00:07:54
And I watched a video of him talking about it. And he's talking about God's
00:07:58
will and all that stuff. So I bought it.
00:08:00
And it really changed my perspective a lot.
00:08:04
And the main takeaway I got was God does not necessarily care about where we
00:08:10
are, but who we are and the who we are impacts where we are, where we go,
00:08:15
you know, where our heart is, that the state of our heart impacts our actions
00:08:19
and our choices, which ultimately leads us to, you know, where we end up career wise,
00:08:24
family wise, friendship wise, like everything. Right.
00:08:28
So that is the most important thing to God. And that kind of like took a lot
00:08:32
of pressure off me because I felt I had this responsibility.
00:08:35
I had told all these people in my life that, oh, I'm going to graduate high
00:08:39
school and I'm going to go and graduate college and become a pastor.
00:08:42
And I had said that to so many people because at that point,
00:08:45
that's what I thought I was going to do. I thought that's what ministry was.
00:08:48
And through that, I just realized God cares deeply about the state of my heart,
00:08:52
whether I'm a pastor or not.
00:08:54
And as Christians, we all have this responsibility to minister to people and share the gospel.
00:09:01
You know, the Great Commission, Matthew 25, go make disciples of all men,
00:09:06
baptizing them in the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.
00:09:08
And all Christians have that responsibility and not just pastors.
00:09:11
You'd be a janitor and have that same ministry calling.
00:09:14
So I think when most people decide that they're going to become a pastor,
00:09:17
I think it comes with a heavy weight because it's not like, I think I'm going
00:09:20
to try this pastor thing out for a few years and then I'm going to move up the
00:09:23
ladder and do something else.
00:09:24
It's like kind of, if you think about being a pastor, it is almost like from
00:09:30
the get-go, from the beginning, it feels like a lifetime commitment and calling.
00:09:34
For you, that's not the case, as we know that you're already out of the church
00:09:39
as far as ministry, vocational ministry goes.
00:09:42
Tell me about your last day of ministry. We call it day zero. but what was that like?
00:09:48
Was that something that you ended up initiating or was that initiated for you?
00:09:52
That's a big question too.
00:09:54
Leading up to that last day, my pastor set me aside and said,
00:09:58
Dylan, if you don't leave voluntarily, you're going to be pushed out.
00:10:01
And that was because of the church situation that I was in. Not because of me.
00:10:06
And maybe it was because of me, because we're in a church that was very politically
00:10:11
and theologically divided at the the time.
00:10:14
And I just got thrown into that. I started when that mess was happening and
00:10:20
it just continued to get worse.
00:10:22
And I just had different viewpoints than a lot of the people that were in the
00:10:26
church. And because of that.
00:10:28
It was getting to the point where they just didn't want me around anymore,
00:10:30
I think. At least some of them. Was this during the pandemic?
00:10:33
It was right before pandemic.
00:10:36
My last... Obviously, the pandemic really divided churches and like,
00:10:41
are we going to wear masks, not wear masks? Oh, yeah. That kind of fun stuff. So, I didn't know.
00:10:44
Oh, man. So, this is politics before even more politics, really. Yep.
00:10:48
Yeah. I do want specifics on the denomination because I can totally give you
00:10:52
them too, but it... No, not necessary. We're good. Okay. Okay.
00:10:56
Well, so that was a big political thing that was happening for years.
00:11:00
And it finally was, that was just a breaking point, I think,
00:11:03
for a lot of people, a lot of churches.
00:11:04
That was happening in 2018, 2019.
00:11:08
And actually, my day zero was March 1st, 2020, which if you know,
00:11:13
three weeks later, that's when everything was shut down.
00:11:16
Right. So day zero, my wife and I were both hurting because the church for us,
00:11:24
I have a hard time saying that it was all bad because it wasn't.
00:11:27
There was certainly many blessings in it.
00:11:29
And I look fondly on some of those memories, but then other memories bring up
00:11:33
kind of triggering things and emotions. emotions, but day one was a really hard day.
00:11:38
One, because I was grateful that I was kind of like moving on to the next chapter,
00:11:43
but actually the very last day, my daughter was due a month later.
00:11:47
So they actually had a baby shower for us my last Sunday there.
00:11:51
So we left on really great terms. They gave us these gifts and gave us cards
00:11:56
and the youth group wrote all these really loving cards to to me and like just
00:12:01
really heartwarming things saying that they love me and they're sad to see me
00:12:05
go. And that was really wonderful.
00:12:07
And it meant so much to my wife and I, but it was also really hard because we
00:12:12
felt like we needed some healing.
00:12:14
So the next week, like March 8th, whatever day that was, we go to another church,
00:12:19
go to that church again, and then COVID shuts everything down.
00:12:22
So then we're like, crap, we don't have a church to go to.
00:12:26
And that was about a year. We didn't have a home church for about a year,
00:12:30
which was really hard because we needed to go into a place where we could just
00:12:36
heal. excuse me, where we could just heal.
00:12:38
So I'm curious too, for your, what a lot of people don't realize is that when
00:12:43
a pastor loses their job,
00:12:46
the family loses a job and it's a transition, not just for the person coming
00:12:51
out of ministry, but it's really for the spouse and for the kids, for everybody.
00:12:54
Obviously yours are really, your kids are really young, but what was that like for your spouse?
00:12:59
And not that she's here, you can't speak for her, but I mean,
00:13:02
I mean, I'm sure you guys wrestled and went through and was it mama bear coming
00:13:08
out to protect you or was it like just mingling with you? Like how did that
00:13:13
get processed between you two?
00:13:14
You know, there was a lot of things that happened while we were there that Emily
00:13:17
was very protective of me about.
00:13:19
There's, you know, people said some things about me behind my back.
00:13:24
They said things to my face.
00:13:26
She was always very protective. She's a very loyal person. So if somebody comes
00:13:30
against her people, she's, she's standing up for them, which that's,
00:13:34
I just love that so deeply about her.
00:13:36
And it, yeah, I guess the mama bear side did come out.
00:13:39
Uh, she was very protective of me, but also she was hurting herself too,
00:13:44
just cause that, that church really through the entire 18 months that we were
00:13:48
there was not a great, great experience either for her. So yeah.
00:13:53
It was really hard. And I'll say even to this day, I know that I still have healing.
00:13:58
I can't speak for her and say that she still needs healing, but we've talked
00:14:02
about it recently and we both are kind of under the same idea that,
00:14:07
yeah, I think there's stuff we still have to process about it.
00:14:10
Does that answer your question? Yeah, that's good.
00:14:12
What did that, like, you know, in pastoral transitions, we're looking at that
00:14:18
life after ministry through the lenses of career and coaching and figuring out
00:14:23
like the money, like so finance coaching, and then the counseling pieces.
00:14:27
But how do you just determine, like, did you have a career coach assigned to you?
00:14:33
Did the church kind of give you, here's your last check, but also here's a package
00:14:38
just try to help you beyond severance to be able to figure out what those next
00:14:42
steps are going to look like? No, not really.
00:14:45
But, but I did leading up to this, this leaving. So I actually had for about a year up to me leaving.
00:14:54
It was probably about March of the 2019.
00:14:57
I started to see my own therapist and through working through that stuff,
00:15:02
I determined that I wanted to become a mental health counselor.
00:15:05
And that was really because I loved my part of my job as youth pastor of just
00:15:09
meeting one-on-one with students here in their stories and working with them
00:15:12
and just, just helping them walk through their struggles,
00:15:16
you know, not pushing them, not pulling them, but just walking through with
00:15:19
them with, with, with them.
00:15:21
And I determined when I left the church that I was going to start schooling.
00:15:26
So timeline, March 1st, leave the church, April 8th, my daughter's born like May 25th or something.
00:15:34
I start my first day of grad school as a mental health counselor.
00:15:38
So I kind of had a plan of of action. Like I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave this church.
00:15:44
It's really hard. I don't, I didn't really want to, but I was kind of like,
00:15:48
I had to type of situation.
00:15:51
But I told my pastor knew that I was going to go become a mental health counselor,
00:15:56
at least go to school for it and see where it leads me.
00:15:58
So there was that. I think my pastor was very supportive also of everything.
00:16:04
I want to make that very clear. My pastor was great.
00:16:07
And a lot of the other people were too. But yeah, I'd say I was pretty comfortable
00:16:11
when I left because I knew what I was going to hop into.
00:16:14
And I actually was able to get a full-time job as a delivery driver.
00:16:19
Actually, a week before I left the church, I had that job started.
00:16:22
So the church did not provide me any sort of extra support in that way,
00:16:27
but I had to figure it out because I had enough time to really process it.
00:16:30
It wasn't an instant cutoff.
00:16:31
It was kind of a buildup to it. it. So you had said that when you were in high
00:16:35
school, you felt like you got the call from the Lord to pastor.
00:16:40
Was there a, was there some kind of internal struggle when you realized that
00:16:45
you were moving out of pastoring or had you kind of reconciled that?
00:16:49
What was your, what was the dynamic like between you and the Lord in terms of
00:16:53
figuring out those next steps? You guys ask That's such good questions.
00:16:57
Yes. There was a lot of wrestling because I had made a commitment to myself,
00:17:04
my family, like all these people.
00:17:05
I had shared my story with so many people of how I really became serious in
00:17:10
my faith and how God had called me to be a pastor.
00:17:14
And so much discernment had to happen. And then I finally decided,
00:17:18
I don't think this pastoral thing is the thing for me, at least at this point in my life.
00:17:22
And that was really hard because I was like, am I going to let my family down?
00:17:27
Am I going to let my wife down? Am I going to let my friends down?
00:17:30
All the people that I said, I'm going to be a pastor. And they're like,
00:17:32
yeah, you're going to be a great pastor. We love you in that position.
00:17:34
And it's like, man, now that I'm leaving this, people are just going to look
00:17:38
at me as a phony now and say.
00:17:41
I just, yeah, it was hard, but ultimately I had to trust, okay,
00:17:46
God, like maybe being a pastor is not the ministry you're calling me to,
00:17:50
but I still believe you're calling me to some sort of ministry.
00:17:54
And again, it comes back to the Great Commission. We all have this responsibility
00:17:58
as Christians to do ministry in our lives.
00:18:01
And I just had to figure out what that was. Yeah. Or it's both.
00:18:05
He did call you into pastoring and into ministry, and it was for a season.
00:18:10
And then you were discerning enough to realize, okay, I think the calling,
00:18:15
the assignment has changed. We're pivoting away from full-time vocational ministry
00:18:20
into something else. Yeah.
00:18:22
Actually, what you guys said in an earlier episode was, Matt,
00:18:25
you were talking about assignment versus calling.
00:18:28
And I think that's really accurate, what you just said, Marilee,
00:18:31
about it was an assignment, And it was called to that assignment,
00:18:34
but that was just, that was what it was.
00:18:36
It was just the assignment of being the pastor for that period.
00:18:39
So for somebody who's coming out of ministry, vocational ministry,
00:18:43
because we believe that just because you're not a pastor anymore that you stop doing ministry, right?
00:18:49
Like we're just going to leave ministry to the paid professionals and everybody
00:18:53
else gets to, you know, tag along on Sunday mornings.
00:18:57
But there is a, and I think this progression of going from orientation to disorientation
00:19:06
to reorientation, this new normal.
00:19:09
What do you say to somebody who's coming out of ministry and they are in that
00:19:14
wilderness season of disorientation?
00:19:16
Like, what's the lesson to be learned?
00:19:19
And not that, you know, I think it's okay if you're still in the wilderness.
00:19:25
I think I have days and times, probably more often than not,
00:19:29
where I feel like I'm still wandering in the wilderness saying,
00:19:32
Lord, I long for the promised land, and I feel like I'm close. Why can't I get there?
00:19:39
Yeah. Oh, man. The biggest lesson I learned through all this God really put
00:19:43
on my heart was sometimes the reasons for why we're in a place,
00:19:47
the reasons why we perceive we're in a place, are different from why the reason God has us in a place.
00:19:52
And ultimately he knows best
00:19:56
and i mean that's up you know you had to
00:19:58
put your faith in that that he knows best but also the
00:20:02
things that we the hard situations that we pray that god would change he's using
00:20:07
to change us so it's like this like the refining of the gold that's talked about
00:20:14
in the old testament that you would be tested so that you would be purified
00:20:19
and there's this idea of the sanctification that's happening.
00:20:22
So like you're going through this hard time, but know that even if your journey
00:20:27
doesn't go where you thought it would.
00:20:30
God, again, He cares so deeply about the state of your heart that it doesn't
00:20:35
really matter necessarily where you are, but who you are and what God's doing right now.
00:20:40
Is He using this state of your life to help you grow? And I believe the answer is always yes.
00:20:45
But we can also look at it and say, we can let the challenge defeat us or we can let it grow us.
00:20:51
I don't know. I guess that's the thing that I really took away from that is
00:20:54
that God used this really challenging point in my life to really bring me to where I am today.
00:21:00
And I'm really grateful for where I am today. I'm really happy with where my
00:21:04
career is going and what God's doing in my life with my family and kids and job and everything.
00:21:10
And I wouldn't be here without the pain that I walked through.
00:21:14
How has your experience in exiting vocational ministry,
00:21:19
how has that helped you to have, well, I'm assuming you're a naturally compassionate
00:21:24
person because of you were in pastoring and now you're entering into counseling.
00:21:29
So you obviously have a lot of empathy and compassion for people.
00:21:32
I'm trying to figure out what my question is. So you have authority to speak
00:21:37
sort of on, can you, for someone listening who's feeling kind of stuck,
00:21:41
how would you, what would you say to them?
00:21:44
Sometimes the hardest moments in our life Life, actually I'd say there's always opportunity.
00:21:50
The hardest moments of our life can be the moments that help you grow the most,
00:21:56
and to embrace the pain and the struggle because God does not waste that pain.
00:22:01
He doesn't look past it and he doesn't say, oh, he's suffering.
00:22:05
I'm going to let him continue to suffer and let nothing good come out of it.
00:22:08
But we know that God cares deeply and he sees us in our pain.
00:22:12
And we see that in Jesus in the, in the gospels where he'll see people,
00:22:17
what is it? There's a scripture that says Jesus's heart went out to this person
00:22:23
and he has this compassion for them and compassion.
00:22:27
The struggle we see in the Bible, we struggle to see in our own lives.
00:22:30
God doesn't look past it.
00:22:31
He sees it and his heart goes out to us and his heart breaks for our pain.
00:22:38
And I think just remembering that in the midst of it, at least for me, has been so helpful.
00:22:43
And with my clients, I'll say that. I'll say that very thing that you might
00:22:48
be going through a really hard moment, but it doesn't have to defeat you.
00:22:53
It can actually help you grow into the person that God really would have you to be.
00:22:58
And it's going to be for your benefit eventually, even if you can't see it right now.
00:23:02
Yeah. There's always this, I don't know if you remember Francis Chan,
00:23:06
the pastor, but he tells the story of the grasshopper.
00:23:09
I don't know if you remember the grasshopper story, but he pulls from Isaiah
00:23:12
40 and says that it is he, it is God who sits above the circle of the earth
00:23:16
and we, its inhabitants are like grasshoppers.
00:23:18
And he talks about the story of a grasshopper who wants to go see his mom and
00:23:22
he hits this wall and can't get around it, can't go over it, can't go through it,
00:23:27
but just the banging his head against the wall of I want what I want and I can't
00:23:33
get there and God feels very cruel because I can't get what I want.
00:23:37
And he pulls Isaiah 40 and he says, God sits above it all. God sits above the circle of the earth.
00:23:43
He sees our problems and we're like these little grasshoppers.
00:23:45
And so, you know, as Francis tells it is.
00:23:49
That the grasshopper, he's a Christian grasshopper. So he prays and says,
00:23:53
God, if it's your will, then help me knock this wall down.
00:23:57
But really he opens his eyes and the door opens and he sees on the other side of the wall is his mom.
00:24:02
And he realizes if I got what I wanted, I would have down that wall and it would
00:24:06
have crushed my grasshopper mom on the other side.
00:24:08
And I think, and I bump up against that wall. It's been a big picture for me
00:24:12
of just hitting my head against the wall and saying, God, you see this and still
00:24:18
like, what's going on? What is happening in this scenario?
00:24:21
I know you see the other side of the wall, but I can't see the other side of the wall.
00:24:25
And I need wisdom and I need patience, man. I need lots of patience to be able
00:24:29
to get through those moments.
00:24:31
But I agree with you that it is in those moments.
00:24:35
We hate them in the moment, but looking back, they've built a resiliency.
00:24:41
They've built a strength.
00:24:42
An upcoming guest that we have on the podcast. And he wrote a book called Refined by the Fired.
00:24:49
Not just the fire, but Refined by the Fired. And it was his own story of coming
00:24:53
out. It's in our recommended reading, but it's his own story of coming out of
00:24:57
ministry and having that be a refining moment.
00:25:00
And so as we wrap, I'm just curious, and we've danced around this a little bit,
00:25:05
but life after ministry, you are experiencing it. Is there life after ministry?
00:25:10
Is it good? and have the trials, disorientation, the wilderness that you've
00:25:15
walked through, do you see God's hand in it where you're at?
00:25:18
And it hasn't been that long. It's not like it was a decade ago.
00:25:21
It's still in the last couple of years, but... It's still pretty fresh,
00:25:24
yeah. Yeah, it's still fresh.
00:25:26
Yeah, like I said, I think there's still healing that has to be done,
00:25:29
but absolutely there's life after ministry. I mean...
00:25:34
I have this quote here. Joy is always possible, but that doesn't mean we don't
00:25:39
make our way to gratitude slowly and through a valley of tears.
00:25:43
And that's actually Mike Donahue in his book, Finding God's Life for My Will.
00:25:48
Really, really good book. Recommend it. But he talks about how we can experience
00:25:53
pain and joy in the same breath, just as Paul talks about it.
00:25:57
And that's really the last few years of my journey is just trying to heal from
00:26:01
From the pain I went through, the journey of just trying to discern what my
00:26:06
life is supposed to be, what vocation do I go into, the state of my heart, right?
00:26:11
And God's taught me that joy is possible through gratitude.
00:26:16
You know, thanking God for what he's given me ultimately.
00:26:20
Even the pain, even thanking God for the pain because ultimately that pain has
00:26:24
led me to being stronger. And what's that verse, endurance leads to,
00:26:30
or do you know what I'm talking about? You're a pastor, Matt. Yeah.
00:26:34
Former pastor. Former pastor, right. Yeah. You know what I'm talking about? What is that verse?
00:26:40
Yeah, yeah. Trials that bring about patience. Bingo. That bring about endurance. Yes.
00:26:44
Perseverance. All that stuff, yeah. Yes. It's in the New Testament somewhere.
00:26:48
It's funny. Yeah, it's in there.
00:26:50
Yeah. I don't even know if I answered your question. No. No,
00:26:53
absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. There's life after ministry.
00:26:56
It's hard, but it's there.
00:26:59
So, okay. I have a question. So you mentioned a couple of times that you came
00:27:03
to the transition with wounds that you needed healing.
00:27:07
And I was just wondering if you could speak a little bit more specifically as
00:27:11
to what was hurting and what you were processing coming out of this particular transition.
00:27:18
Are you my therapist? Is this what's happening? Have a seat on the couch here.
00:27:22
Oh, yeah, that's so good.
00:27:24
And then when I was going through it, I actually felt like there was some anger
00:27:28
towards God for allowing me to go through this pain. And yeah.
00:27:33
Okay. So flesh that out a little bit. Cause I think that's an important. Yeah.
00:27:37
It's like, okay, God, if you called me to be a pastor, you called me to be in
00:27:41
this position, then why would you put me through so much of this?
00:27:44
This, to me, it seemed like unnecessary pain at the time.
00:27:48
And I think the lesson that I learned was ultimately that God uses that pain. He doesn't waste it.
00:27:52
But I was, I think recently the last year or so, I've really been able to process
00:27:58
that and heal in that way.
00:27:59
Just realizing that God didn't waste any of that pain that I I went through.
00:28:03
But while I was leaving, I was, I think, pretty angry about it.
00:28:07
I didn't really feel joyful about leaving because I didn't really want to leave.
00:28:12
I was experiencing pain when I was there, but I was also like,
00:28:15
I think I kind of want to keep going because I love the youth ministry.
00:28:20
I love the kids and I didn't want to leave them.
00:28:23
I think part of me was like, man, if I leave, then who's going to come in and
00:28:26
take my place and who's going to teach them the truth?
00:28:29
And I had a a hard time trusting God that, you know, leaving the people that
00:28:33
you're shepherding is like a really hard thing to do.
00:28:35
And I felt there's some anger towards God, I think, and maybe towards myself
00:28:40
for the situation that I was in.
00:28:43
And I think recently I'm actually processing a lot more and I've talked to my
00:28:47
counselor about it even recently too, just about this stuff, how to heal from this.
00:28:53
And I still feel like there's some bitterness in my heart a bit towards it.
00:28:58
And And actually, I noticed, and this is really vulnerable for me,
00:29:00
but I noticed when I left ministry that my devotion, my personal devotion almost halted.
00:29:07
And I think it's because of the anger that I had. I just felt,
00:29:11
I don't know if I'd say betrayed because even in the midst of it,
00:29:14
I had faith that God knew what he was doing, but that doesn't make it any less easy.
00:29:18
And I think my humanness, my emotions got the best of me.
00:29:21
And I stopped reading the Bible really for a long time. time.
00:29:25
And again, like the last year or so has been really healing for me.
00:29:29
And I think there's still healing to be done in that, in my personal relationship with God.
00:29:34
It's almost because you look back and you're like, I don't know if my relationship,
00:29:39
like at one point when I was a youth pastor, when I started youth pastoring,
00:29:43
I felt my relationship with God was really good.
00:29:45
But going through that situation taught me so much and showed me so much about
00:29:50
myself and so so much about God's character, but it also kind of left me feeling
00:29:55
like, man, like, I don't know if I'm as strong in my faith as I once was.
00:29:59
And especially in my own personal devotion, I feel like it's been so weak.
00:30:03
And then you throw on responsibilities of being a dad and working full time
00:30:07
and all the other things in life.
00:30:08
It makes, it's really hard to be devoted like that.
00:30:12
And I'm still building up to a point where I'm comfortable, like,
00:30:15
oh, I feel good about my relationship with God.
00:30:18
Cause I still feel like there's some, some disconnect there at some points.
00:30:23
Yeah. Does that answer your question? Yeah, totally.
00:30:27
And, and do you think that it sounds like your trust in God was impacted?
00:30:32
Like that he had you in a place and understand why he would put you there and
00:30:39
just to take you out? Yeah.
00:30:40
Especially when you didn't agree and you didn't want to go.
00:30:43
Has that, has that impacted you moving into this next season of life with this next career?
00:30:49
Does it like, does it push that trust button?
00:30:53
I feel like God's definitely given me the gift of faith in the midst.
00:30:57
It's like, yes. The answer is yes to that question is I think it has impacted my trust.
00:31:02
I went in, who's the character of the Bible who's like, here I am, Lord, send me.
00:31:08
I'm like this willing guy, send me, I'm going to do it, whatever it takes.
00:31:13
And then I was thrown into the fire, it felt like, and it was just really hard.
00:31:16
And now I'm really hesitant.
00:31:18
I'm here, God, but I don't know if I want you to send me. and
00:31:22
but again it's the the stepping stepping
00:31:25
out in faith martin luther king has a quote that i
00:31:28
love it's faith is taking the next step even
00:31:31
when you can't see the staircase and that's where i kind of feel like i'm at
00:31:34
right now with even becoming like a full-time christian counselor is i think
00:31:38
this is really a good fit for me because i loved it as an intern and i'm still
00:31:42
at the same office as i was but there is that doubt of me like what if this
00:31:46
is just as hard and if not worse than where I was?
00:31:50
And what if it ends up being the same thing where I feel like I get crushed?
00:31:54
And there's a little bit of fear that it's going to happen again in this situation.
00:31:58
Even if it's not a church, it's still an organization that could hurt me because
00:32:02
it's built out of people, right?
00:32:04
So it's, yeah. I think a lot of the struggle of daily life as a believer is
00:32:09
just like, Lord, I believe, but help my unbelief.
00:32:12
We kind of live in this place of tension of like, Like, I do believe,
00:32:16
like, I know that you have a good plan for me.
00:32:18
I know you can be trusted. And
00:32:21
yet, like, there's this part of me that's like, oh, you hurt last time.
00:32:25
I want to trust you. I want to be vulnerable.
00:32:28
But I think that's just human that we're afraid of.
00:32:32
And we don't need the church to get hurt. You know, I was hurt when Subway fired me as a teenager.
00:32:38
Subway, please don't sue us.
00:32:42
You know, so we, but, but because it's so acute and because it's coming from
00:32:47
a community that should be family.
00:32:49
That that's the extra sting and we've poured, it's not just,
00:32:53
we clocked in nine to five, but it's been, you know, blood and sweat and tears in all of that.
00:32:59
And what happens when the pastor, the man of God, the leader,
00:33:03
you know, the leader of the people finds himself in a crisis of faith and a
00:33:07
crisis of trust and the sense of like, I can't put my money where my mouth is.
00:33:12
Like, I'm not sure that my faith is actually strong enough to live out what
00:33:17
I've been preaching in this hard season.
00:33:20
Eugene Peterson says that every pastor is a theologian. We need somebody.
00:33:25
I actually have a friend in Texas, and he says, every pastor needs a pagan.
00:33:30
And he says, I'm the pagan that they hang out with.
00:33:32
But I'm not necessarily sure that that's the best quote. Yeah,
00:33:35
it might not be. I'm not just in danger associated with that.
00:33:41
Well, something that comes up, When I was leaving that church and I was searching
00:33:46
for a new church, a quote that I heard on the internet, it was like a video
00:33:49
I saw. I don't know what pastor it was, otherwise I'd give him credit.
00:33:51
But he said, if you ever find a perfect church, don't go there because you'll ruin it.
00:33:57
It's just because the church is made out of broken people and no church is going
00:34:00
to be perfect. But that's kind of the point though, right? That's the point of Jesus.
00:34:05
He loves us in our imperfectness. We are his flawless bride,
00:34:10
even if we are sinful and broken because he died for us.
00:34:13
So, amen. And going into the therapy world and as you've been meeting with people.
00:34:18
You're still doing ministry even in the counseling room. Is that right?
00:34:21
Yes. Yeah. And I work at a Christian office.
00:34:24
So we really, we advertise as being, we're Christian therapists who want to
00:34:29
help you work through spiritual issues, anxiety, depression,
00:34:33
just from a Christian perspective.
00:34:35
So that's ultimately where my call to ministry led was being a Christian counselor.
00:34:41
Counselor and I'm actually, I'm able to work with youth in the church.
00:34:46
I'm still, and I love like middle school, highest age kids, high school age kids.
00:34:51
I love them. That's like my, I don't know why God's put this love in my heart
00:34:55
for them, but I just love working with those kids.
00:34:57
And so I'm able to do that counseling still and, and actually work with some
00:35:03
pastors to work through the pain that they're experiencing with transitioning
00:35:08
or just, just the pain of of being a pastor.
00:35:10
So that's my ministry that I feel God's ultimately led me to.
00:35:14
And it wouldn't, I wouldn't have really had the, as clear of a vision of it
00:35:18
now, if I didn't go through what I went through.
00:35:21
So yeah, ministry is still happening after ministry.
00:35:25
Dylan, if somebody wants to just follow you and your story, the, wouldn't it be nice?
00:35:30
We'll put all this in the show notes as well, but how can people connect with
00:35:34
what you're doing in your world today?
00:35:36
Yeah. Well, if you want to follow me, I've got my business page,
00:35:40
Fawcett underscore Woodcraft on Instagram, TikTok.
00:35:43
And then I've got another podcast too, called the Wouldn't It Be Nice Podcast.
00:35:48
And you can find that anywhere you find podcasts. I'm actually,
00:35:52
I can't tell you what the name of the podcast is going to be yet because we
00:35:55
don't know yet, but I am starting another podcast too.
00:35:57
And it's going to be a Christian podcast talking about discipling and reaching
00:36:03
the younger generation. So it's in the works.
00:36:07
It's kind of still being really built right now.
00:36:13
Kind of sounds like ministry after ministry though, right?
00:36:16
Yeah. Yeah, I like it. Dylan, thanks for sharing your story.
00:36:20
I'm thankful that God has brought you through the season and you're still in
00:36:24
a season. Who knows what seasons are to come?
00:36:27
But in all of that, God is good and thankful for our paths crossing today.
00:36:31
Yeah, thank you, Matt and Marilee. Thank you so much for having me.
00:36:34
It was a joy to be able to share my story.
00:36:37
I hope that, you know, even one person is able to hear it and have them help
00:36:40
it, help them in one small piece, if possible.
00:36:44
So thank you. Yep. Amen.
00:36:48
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Life After Ministry podcast.
00:36:52
As we wrap up today, we want to acknowledge something that we hear all too often.
00:36:58
It's this weight of uncertainty and this question that looms large for many is, what will I do next?
00:37:05
Every week we talk with Christian leaders grappling with this very question.
00:37:09
Leaders who are navigating what can often feel like a wilderness season.
00:37:14
And they're searching for direction, feeling a bit lost, trying to make sense
00:37:18
of the unexpected turns their journey has taken.
00:37:22
And we understand that this transition feels overwhelming. The fear and uncertainty
00:37:27
can be paralyzing, and it's a path that is really filled with more questions
00:37:33
than answers and with more silence than direction.
00:37:37
Recognizing this need, we have established a nonprofit arm at Pastoral Transitions.
00:37:43
Our goal is to come alongside pastors and Christian leaders in this season of
00:37:49
transition to be able to offer a hand when the path feels unclear and the future feels uncertain.
00:37:55
We want to be able to say we can still help you. But to be able to continue
00:37:59
this work, to extend the support, we need your help.
00:38:03
If our podcast has touched your heart, if you believe in what we are doing,
00:38:07
then we invite you to be part of this mission.
00:38:10
Consider making a donation to support these Christian leaders.
00:38:14
Your contribution can help provide hope and healing that these pastors and their
00:38:18
families desperately need as they're seeking out what their next season might
00:38:22
be. We help in the areas of career and coaching and counseling.
00:38:27
Visit pastoraltransitions.com and you can make a difference today.
00:38:31
Your generosity can help light the way for those who are walking through their
00:38:36
own wilderness and we can help guide them towards a future filled with hope.
00:38:40
Thank you for joining us on the Life After Ministry podcast.
00:38:43
And until next time, keep seeking, keep trusting, and remember even in this
00:38:48
wilderness season that you're never walking alone.
00:38:51
Music.
Related Episodes
The Disciple Dilemma (featuring Dennis Allen)
Summary In Episode 34 of Life After Ministry, Dennis Allen, author of The Disciple Dilemma, shares his journey from a military and corporate background to addressing one of the most significant crises in the church today: the failure of discipleship. Dennis discusses how the ch...
This Dream Is Not For You (featuring Wade Joye)
In Episode 33 of Life After Ministry, Wade Joye shares his journey from worship leader at Elevation Church to discovering a new calling after releasing his lifelong dream. Wade discusses the challenge of trusting God through ministry transitions, redefining calling, and finding...
The Measure of a Ministry (featuring Gene Getz) - Part 2
What happens when pastors hang on too long or find themselves suddenly cut off from ministry? In part two of our conversation with Gene Getz on Life After Ministry, we tackle this crucial issue head-on. With over 50 years in ministry and 20 years post-succession, Gene offers pr...
Sponsors
