A Biblical Vision for Leadership - with John Currie

[00:00:03] We're hearing a lot about churches where there's divisions and there's all sorts of wreckage

[00:00:08] And I think some of that might be the function that God has blessed the preaching of the word

[00:00:14] But the leadership have not been trained how to lead

[00:00:17] And so when we do have to lead what we do is we actually go to the world and

[00:00:22] adopt its values and its methods

[00:00:25] Which doesn't fit with Kingdom Ministry

[00:00:29] Or we lead we just default to what we think we know and we lead according to the flesh

[00:00:33] And so we've got a lack of wisdom. We've got the values are wrong the manners are wrong

[00:00:40] So I actually think the biblical leadership has a different mission has different motives has different manners and different methods

[00:00:49] Then the world does

[00:00:53] Leadership is a very popular topic in modern business discussions

[00:00:57] But what does the Bible have to say about leadership and is there a difference between the vision for leadership given in the Bible?

[00:01:04] Versus that which comes from the world

[00:01:07] John Curie is the professor of pastoral theology at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

[00:01:15] He also has served as a pastor in different churches and denominations and in these roles

[00:01:21] He has seen that sometimes pastors thrive in preaching but struggle with leadership or vice versa

[00:01:28] In his recent book the pastor as leader John gives a biblical vision for a uniquely Christian approach to leadership

[00:01:37] I hope you'll enjoy this conversation. I'll be back at the end with some final words

[00:01:42] John thank you for being guests on theology for the people today

[00:01:47] My pleasure. I'm glad to be with you

[00:01:49] Could you tell us a little bit about yourself where you serve what kinds of things you're involved in?

[00:01:55] Sure, I'm a professor of pastoral theology at Westminster Theological Seminary

[00:02:00] Before that I served in pastoral ministry for a few decades

[00:02:03] I was actually born in Scotland and I was raised in Canada. That's where I came to faith in Christ as a teenager

[00:02:11] And then the Lord called me to ministry in my teens and I served a couple of different denominations

[00:02:17] I had some independent in an independent church at one time as well

[00:02:21] And so I've had a bunch of experience in different contexts a couple of different countries

[00:02:26] And I'm just real privileged to be here at Westminster where I get to teach preaching and I teach leadership

[00:02:31] And I get to mentor the next generation of pastors. Yeah, that's excellent. Glad to hear about that

[00:02:37] What are your specialties that you teach in?

[00:02:40] So the areas that I teach in predominantly are

[00:02:43] preaching and where we focus on expository preaching from a Christ-centered hermeneutic

[00:02:50] And then I teach on pastoral leadership where we try to

[00:02:54] As the book is about we try to train men how to take

[00:02:58] Their theology and their ministry and how that translates

[00:03:02] Uh into leading the church forward into the things that they're expounding from the word of God

[00:03:06] So I teach a couple of courses on leadership do that at an endive level and do that at a

[00:03:11] D men level as well. Wow, that's great

[00:03:14] Yeah, and I guess that's a good segue into talking about the topic of your book

[00:03:18] So your book is titled the pastor as leader

[00:03:21] And maybe you could just introduce us to kind of the the main idea of the book

[00:03:27] Yeah, well my pilgrimage through

[00:03:29] uh

[00:03:30] The way I was converted to the my call to the churches that I've served in

[00:03:35] as I made my

[00:03:37] As I made the passage through that and as my theology developed and reformed from the scriptures

[00:03:43] Uh, I was sort of nurtured in traditions where pastors were maybe good speakers

[00:03:49] But the theology wasn't super deep and uh, the idea that everything had to come from the text

[00:03:55] Maybe wasn't always there

[00:03:58] But they were really good leaders

[00:04:00] managers CEOs

[00:04:03] And then as god developed my theology is it reformed from the scriptures?

[00:04:07] Uh, I moved into other church circles and I realized there's great theology here. It's great teaching here

[00:04:13] And sometimes it was great preaching

[00:04:16] But it seemed like in a lot of contexts that great information didn't really

[00:04:21] Turn into congregational transformation

[00:04:24] And a lot of the good teaching sort of landed at the end of the pulpit and really didn't change lives and change congregations

[00:04:31] And I started to see that these two things shouldn't be pulled apart. I think now based on my theology

[00:04:37] That the that uh, christ leads his church

[00:04:41] Through the word preached

[00:04:43] So the preacher is a leader

[00:04:46] But then he has to learn how to take

[00:04:48] What he's preaching and translate that into the leadership of the church

[00:04:53] And so I actually went to work on my doctoral project

[00:04:55] I went to work to try to figure out when we are committed

[00:04:59] To the centrality of christ-centered exposition and the primacy of preaching and pastoral ministry

[00:05:04] What does that mean for leadership? And how do we train pastors?

[00:05:08] To take what they're expounding from the scriptures not not impose their leadership agenda on the scriptures

[00:05:14] But how do we expound the scriptures and then take what we're learning?

[00:05:18] And how does that translate into the ministry and mission of the church?

[00:05:21] Hmm

[00:05:22] Yeah, I love that and I mean I could tell you I've so I've been uh in pastoral ministry

[00:05:26] I've been a lead pastor for 20 years now. I became a lead pastor on this 21 and I'm about to be

[00:05:33] 40 I guess is 19 years next year would be 20 years and I guess over the years, you know, I've seen that in myself

[00:05:38] Um, and I've seen it in a lot of people. I think when I started out

[00:05:42] So I'm in a group of churches that really focuses on

[00:05:47] Christ-centered expository preaching. That's like our bread and butter. It's what we love

[00:05:52] And there have been you know

[00:05:54] Different voices or maybe things that were not said explicitly but have implied that

[00:05:59] That should be the primary focus where you put your attention and to think in terms of like

[00:06:05] effective leadership

[00:06:07] Is perhaps a bit worldly carnal?

[00:06:10] Etc. I mean the word strategy we've often joked that that's like a very bad word in our group of churches

[00:06:17] Yeah, and and yet I've seen how

[00:06:20] Exactly what you're saying. I've seen people who are wonderful preachers

[00:06:24] and I've seen

[00:06:26] That they you know the church never

[00:06:29] Grows not just in numbers but perhaps even in depth right like they right right

[00:06:34] It's just not a lot of development not a lot of growth a lot of disappointment and and a lot of

[00:06:39] Wondering like people genuinely wondering why is

[00:06:44] Someone who is such a good preacher

[00:06:46] Why is that not translating into more transformation in the church and in the community?

[00:06:52] Right, right. So what would you where would you go from there?

[00:06:56] Yeah, well, I think there's a number of factors and we try to work this out kind of organically in the book

[00:07:01] But you mentioned strategy and and I would

[00:07:06] Share your experience

[00:07:07] I'm I know a lot of guys who are wonderful preachers

[00:07:11] But then are suspicious of any talk of strategy and not without good reason

[00:07:15] Because strategy can be a bad term church

[00:07:19] It can mean a little word that I've made up as it can mean

[00:07:23] It means what we think we've got to do is somehow supplant

[00:07:28] Uh god's word as the functional authority in how we do ministry in other words

[00:07:33] It can be a way an avenue to worldly wisdom

[00:07:35] How do we take what the world is doing and bolt that onto the church?

[00:07:40] And that's precisely not what we mean

[00:07:43] So in the book what I try to define strategy is is the intentional developed definition and deployment of biblical priorities in the life of the church

[00:07:52] so the analogy that that I use is

[00:07:56] Most churches have a budget and most members of churches and pastors of churches recognize the need for that

[00:08:03] Well, if you've got a budget you've got a strategy

[00:08:05] Because what you've done is you've said there are certain

[00:08:08] Initiatives there are certain tasks. There are certain ministries that are going to get more resources than other resources than other ministries

[00:08:16] Well, that's strategic now. The question is is it biblical? Have you thought it through biblically? Is it wise?

[00:08:22] And are you being disciplined and intentional as the stewards of that?

[00:08:25] So I would argue that every church has a strategy

[00:08:28] The minute you say we're going to prioritize one thing over another

[00:08:32] And I think the opportunity and responsibility of the pastors of the church and by that I mean both the preachers and the elders

[00:08:40] that the pastors of the church

[00:08:42] Have the responsibility to actually define that strategy biblically

[00:08:47] so what i'm trying to do is is

[00:08:50] Show pastors and elders and members of churches and leaders

[00:08:54] That you're going to have priorities for your church

[00:08:56] The question is whether those have actually been intentionally developed through the preaching of the word

[00:09:02] And if you're doing that in the preaching of the word, then you want to translate that

[00:09:06] Into actually how does this church operate? How's this church function?

[00:09:09] So we deal with that and strategy as as downstream from preaching in the book. Yeah, that's really good

[00:09:15] I would tell you I actually do know churches that don't have a budget because they feel that even that is strategic

[00:09:22] And like you said, yeah, even a bad word

[00:09:24] Here's one thought for you and I would love to hear your take on this

[00:09:28] Is that for many of the churches like that?

[00:09:30] I have in mind when we're talking about this who have great preaching

[00:09:35] Very little leadership in the sense of like organizational leadership

[00:09:39] Um, one of the things that I've seen is that I think for them really the preaching moment

[00:09:46] Is the end that they're hoping to get to right so get people to hear the word

[00:09:52] So for them to think beyond like to even use the pulpit as leadership

[00:09:57] That I think is even out of the box for that right they would say right by spot

[00:10:03] Hearing the word

[00:10:05] Exposited faithfully is the goal

[00:10:07] So right right. So what would you say to that?

[00:10:10] Yeah, so I would say I I don't want to take away

[00:10:14] One bit from the preaching moment

[00:10:18] I think what we'll say in the book you'll see in the book is that

[00:10:22] Uh, the pastor needs to give the bulk and the best of his time to the preparation and delivery of sermons

[00:10:28] Uh, the way I put it with my students here is uh all ministry admission is downstream from the word preached

[00:10:36] But I think there's a lot of ministry admission downstream from the word preached

[00:10:39] So where I would go is Ephesians chapter 4

[00:10:42] And I would say notice that Jesus from the right hand of the father has given pastor teachers to the church

[00:10:48] And if you follow that through he's they're been given for a purpose

[00:10:52] Now the purpose is to build them up to maturity and to ministry

[00:10:56] They do that through teaching sound doctrine

[00:10:59] Um, and so that the church grows up in the truth

[00:11:01] But if you look at the body life pattern of Ephesians 4

[00:11:04] The preaching is supposed to lead somewhere

[00:11:08] The preaching is supposed to actually equip them for maturity

[00:11:12] And in my view equip them for ministry through the gifts that christ has given to them

[00:11:17] So I think right in the scriptures preaching is not meant to just end with itself

[00:11:23] It is as it glorifies god

[00:11:25] By revealing christ it it illumines people to christ

[00:11:30] It transforms them in his image and it mobilizes them for the ministry he's given to them

[00:11:35] So I think in some ways when we talk about strategy or leadership what you're really trying to do is organize

[00:11:41] to respond

[00:11:43] As a congregation as individuals to what god does through the word preached

[00:11:47] So I don't want to take away one bit from the priority of preaching and the pastor's responsibilities

[00:11:53] Or one bit from the moment of preaching

[00:11:55] What I actually want to say is the lord has given that to us to actually lead his people

[00:12:00] So the argument i'll make nick in the first part of the book

[00:12:03] Is it's actually through the preaching of the word that jesus christ actually leads his church

[00:12:09] And he leads them into his purposes and his promises through the word preached

[00:12:14] What we need to be doing is with godly wisdom submitted to the word

[00:12:19] How do we how do we respond to that?

[00:12:22] How do we organize for that and how do we actually equip the people for what god has purposed for them?

[00:12:28] So what would you say this looks like on a really practical level maybe somebody's hearing this and they're like, okay

[00:12:33] I mean, I don't disagree. But but how do I do it? Like what does it look like in practice?

[00:12:39] Yeah

[00:12:41] Well, I think in practice we could talk about it all the way from

[00:12:45] When you're selecting the books you're going to preach on

[00:12:48] So what I'm here's what i'm not talking about what i'm not talking about is deciding

[00:12:54] That I have a leadership vision a leadership strategy and then what I do is I preach several texts

[00:13:00] That actually communicate that to the congregation now that that's not a wrong thing to do

[00:13:04] I don't think to have series on the mission and mission and ministry of the church and to have the strategies

[00:13:09] Biblical strategies. That's not wrong

[00:13:11] What i'm actually suggesting in the book is that what we do is we look at the life of the congregation and pastors

[00:13:17] Who know their church elders who know their church?

[00:13:20] We're always making decisions on if we're committed to expository preaching. Which book are we going to preach through next?

[00:13:27] And I think pastorally the best way to do that is to understand where is my church in its life?

[00:13:34] Where is uh, where's my community and can I select the next book to work through in an expository fashion?

[00:13:41] In a way that addresses the pastoral need. I mean

[00:13:44] Most bible expositors are aware

[00:13:47] That the epistles are written to pastoral situations

[00:13:51] That the apostle is giving us he's looking at the need in the church

[00:13:55] And he's delivering revelation to meet the need in the church

[00:13:58] So I think we should select the next book that way

[00:14:02] And then what i'm suggesting is as you prepare the book

[00:14:06] As you prepare that book that you've selected you're actually looking for what is the biblical vision in the book

[00:14:13] What are the biblical priorities for the church in the books? I address it by using

[00:14:19] The the label of the telos of the text. What is the endpoint of the text?

[00:14:25] It and this particular book and through a book you're going to have a what I call

[00:14:28] I just phrase the term I phrase I turn the phrase the telei the multiple

[00:14:33] Tello of the text and I think it's week after week month after month year after year

[00:14:39] As you preach not what you put into the text but the telos that the spirit put into the text

[00:14:45] What starts to emerge is a vision

[00:14:48] for

[00:14:49] Christ's rule redemption and people's lives

[00:14:53] And you and your job as the preacher is to make what's coming out of the text clear concrete and compelling

[00:15:00] In the context in which you minister

[00:15:02] So in other words

[00:15:03] What does if that if god was pleased to bless his inspired purpose for this text

[00:15:10] With these people in this place at this period. What would it look like?

[00:15:15] So as we work through the text of the eight an expository fashion

[00:15:19] The text itself is going to is going to give us a vision

[00:15:23] And then it's going to show us priorities

[00:15:25] So then what does that look like?

[00:15:27] Well, then it looks like the pastor with the elders of the church

[00:15:31] Um and the leadership of the church working through and saying so if god was pleased to bless these purposes here

[00:15:37] If he was pleased to bless these priorities here, what would that look like in the life of our church?

[00:15:41] So what i'm actually suggesting is that you let the text of scripture drive your vision drive your strategy drive your priorities

[00:15:48] And then the leadership's responsibility becomes to make that operational in life of the church not just leave it at the theoretical

[00:15:55] um, so what does it look like it looks like

[00:15:59] thinking like

[00:16:00] Jesus leads his church through his word preach when you're picking your book

[00:16:04] And if jesus is leading his church through his word preach, what do we then need to do by faith in response to the word?

[00:16:10] And how do we work that out as leaders and I think you do that by if I can use the term

[00:16:17] Strategic ministry planning in response to the word. Yeah, that's really good. I mean

[00:16:22] Sorry to press even further

[00:16:23] But could you maybe even give an example of a hypothetical situation of what that might look like

[00:16:30] Yeah, um, I do a couple of these things. I do a couple of give a couple of examples in the book

[00:16:36] That um

[00:16:37] Are they are anonymous, but they're not hypothetical

[00:16:40] Um, so for example, uh a congregation that uh the pastor's preaching starts to preach through the gospel of luke

[00:16:48] And as you preach through the gospel of luke, what you realize is

[00:16:52] The the the mercy of god in christ that is revealed

[00:16:56] and particularly revealed

[00:16:58] In in his ministry to those who are outcast in society those who are the poor those who are the weak

[00:17:04] And of course you've got that great parable of the good samaritan there in the gospel of luke

[00:17:08] So as you're preaching through that and you recognize that tell us after tell us of the text

[00:17:13] Is how jesus reaches

[00:17:15] The poor how jesus is uh reaches his mercy is

[00:17:20] extended

[00:17:21] To those who are weak and on the outside of society then the church starts to say what are we doing with our diaconal ministry?

[00:17:28] What are we doing with our ministry?

[00:17:30] And what happens is ministries start to people if the holy spirit works in people's lives according to the gifts he's given them

[00:17:38] The leadership will start to suggest initiatives and people will start to suggest initiatives. Hey, could we have a food pantry?

[00:17:43] We've got you know, we've got a

[00:17:46] Community down the street from our church that struggles financially and they drive by all the time. Could we have a food pantry?

[00:17:52] um those kinds of things

[00:17:55] um

[00:17:56] The you know the again if you think about that the gospel of luke and you realize jesus mission to the gentiles

[00:18:04] And uh, you've got a religious community people who have been sort of grown up in the church

[00:18:08] And you start to realize jesus is about more than just those who are already inside the doors

[00:18:13] So are we what are we doing evangelistically?

[00:18:17] What are we doing with our mit but see that's all coming out now out of

[00:18:21] Out of the gospel of luke. It's not pastor comes in and says hey, I've got a vision for mercy ministry

[00:18:26] I've got a vision for evangelism

[00:18:28] So how do I go and somehow convince you to do what I want by preaching bible texts? No

[00:18:33] As I exposit the scripture and we listen to christ by the spirit speak through the word

[00:18:39] How do we respond to the priorities he's giving us?

[00:18:41] So those would be a couple of examples. Yeah, no, that's really helpful

[00:18:45] um

[00:18:46] So when you talk about leadership in this way, it's not so much structural leadership organizational leadership

[00:18:54] What are your thoughts on those types of leadership?

[00:18:58] Yeah, I think it includes that but it's not it's not it's not the pastor is manager

[00:19:03] Right, so I think um with with some very uh studied

[00:19:09] Uh even non-christian

[00:19:12] Uh scholars, I don't think leadership and management are the same thing

[00:19:17] Um leadership is much more about casting vision inspiring gaining alignment now leadership pays attention to management

[00:19:25] and leadership because it's stewarding christ church and uh in the word and because it's a stewardship responsibility is concerned that

[00:19:35] Management functions, which if you look at first Corinthians administration is actually a gift. It's given. Yeah, so it's not it's not inherently a secular thing

[00:19:45] Um, we could talk a lot about where the world is standing in our ground when they do things with excellence

[00:19:51] um

[00:19:52] That uh, I think that leadership

[00:19:55] Uh, so what you're doing in leadership is you are from the scriptures casting the vision

[00:20:00] That you are defining the priorities. You are calling people as an ambassador of christ to align with the agenda of the king

[00:20:10] But then that's going to have structural implications

[00:20:13] And I think maybe one of the challenges maybe what you've seen as you started off here talking about guys

[00:20:19] Who don't want to do who think doing anything beyond preaching secular?

[00:20:23] Is what we can think is the pastor's got to the pastor's the one who's got to do all of those

[00:20:28] extra pulpit ministries. Well, I don't think that's true

[00:20:32] I think what when you're preaching

[00:20:35] When you're preaching the word of god and the power of the holy spirit

[00:20:37] What's going to happen

[00:20:39] Is that the people god has gifted in administration the people he's gifted for different kinds of ministries

[00:20:46] Become equipped to actually then be the ones who under the oversight of the leaders of the church structure the ministry

[00:20:54] So let me give you one example of where

[00:20:56] Preaching and structural stuff goes together biblically. I think it's act chapter six

[00:21:01] And act chapter six you have

[00:21:03] An amazing work of the holy spirit the church is growing

[00:21:07] But an organizational problem becomes a relational problem

[00:21:12] In the church so the church has grown so much which then threatens the ministry of the word

[00:21:17] The church is growing so much that widows are being overlooked

[00:21:21] They don't have if I could use the language the infrastructure

[00:21:24] to take care of

[00:21:26] All of the widows that are becoming part of the new covenant community and so now it becomes a relational problem

[00:21:32] Accusations are made you're doing this because you're biased

[00:21:35] And it threatens the ministry of the word because as the apostles say it's not right for us to leave

[00:21:41] Uh, the ministry of the word to wait on tables, but we will give ourselves to prayer and the word

[00:21:48] And the lord uses that occasion to raise up at least incipiently a new office the deacons

[00:21:54] And so they find an organized the lord gives an organizational solution

[00:22:00] To the problem which averts a relational crisis

[00:22:03] So and the lord has given us structures

[00:22:06] Uh, you know, he built structure into the church. We have the the ministry of the members is the body of christ

[00:22:12] We have deacons. We have elders and we have pastors

[00:22:16] and um

[00:22:17] So stewardship has to be given to operationalizing their roles

[00:22:22] As one of my as one of my mentors used to say sometimes you get the pastors doing the work of the elders

[00:22:27] The elders doing the work of the deacons and the deacons are just doing work

[00:22:31] And uh, so that's an organizational issue

[00:22:34] Uh, and for the body to function in a healthy way

[00:22:38] Leadership has to be given. How does the pastor work? How does the elders work?

[00:22:42] How do the deacons work? How do the gifted members work?

[00:22:45] And I think all of that has to come out of the scriptures

[00:22:48] But that's structural and strategic, but it's not secular. So that's how I would address it

[00:22:53] Yeah, that's great. I I know that I've talked to a lot of people

[00:22:56] Over the years who said

[00:22:58] You know, I was trained in a bible college or in a seminary

[00:23:02] And I was trained with teaching he bruise faithfully. I wasn't trained in

[00:23:08] Leading a staff

[00:23:10] Hiring I wasn't trained in creating structure

[00:23:14] Etc. And a lot of them I've talked to have said I'm not good at it and

[00:23:18] They would even go so far as say I've talked to many who say I'm a great teacher. I'm a terrible leader

[00:23:23] How can I grow?

[00:23:26] Yeah, yeah

[00:23:28] Well, I think um

[00:23:31] We're seeing the fruit of that in a lot of places I think nick

[00:23:34] You know, we're hearing a lot about

[00:23:37] churches where

[00:23:38] Staffs can't get along and where there's divisions and there's all sorts of wreckage

[00:23:44] Um all of that and I think some of that not all of it

[00:23:49] I think some of that

[00:23:51] Might be the function that god has blessed the preaching of the word

[00:23:55] But the leadership have not been trained how to lead

[00:23:58] And so when we do have to lead what we do is we actually go to the world

[00:24:03] and adopt its values and its methods

[00:24:06] which

[00:24:07] Doesn't fit with kingdom ministry

[00:24:10] Or we lead we just default to what we think we know and we lead according to the flesh

[00:24:15] And so we've got a lack of wisdom. We've got uh, the values are wrong the manners are wrong

[00:24:21] So I actually think that biblical leadership has a different mission has different motives has different manners and different methods

[00:24:30] Than the world does I think what we tend to think is it's just got different methods

[00:24:36] And uh, so we bring the same motives and we bring the same manners into our relationships

[00:24:41] So I think what we need to do is train. So an argument we make uh early on in the book is if you're a pastor, you're a leader

[00:24:49] So pastor means shepherd

[00:24:51] Shepherd's job is to move people move the sheep from here to there. I don't care if you're moving them 12 feet

[00:24:56] It's leadership, right

[00:24:58] Now the question is are you doing it?

[00:24:59] Well

[00:25:00] And so I think we have so the first step to your question is pastors after recognize if you've got the title pastor pastor teacher

[00:25:07] You're a leader you lead by teaching

[00:25:10] So you need to learn the fundamentals of the right mission the right

[00:25:14] Message the right motives and the right methods for leadership in the kingdom of god

[00:25:20] It's a completely different order

[00:25:22] Now you can learn things from other spheres

[00:25:25] But you've got to put them through a really good filter

[00:25:28] So that you're actually you're you're actually not bringing

[00:25:31] Compromising corruption into the church now. So I do think you can learn

[00:25:35] By common grace from the board capitalists and other spheres

[00:25:39] But I think you need a good theological and pastoral filter to be able to do that

[00:25:44] But I think right within the scriptures like if you think of philippines chapter 2

[00:25:49] And you think so let me give you two passages philippines chapter 2 where paul says to us

[00:25:53] You know have this mind in yourself, which is in christ jesus and he goes through that whole litany of humility

[00:25:59] Considering others better than yourself looking out for the not only for your own interests, but for the interests of others

[00:26:05] Well, can you imagine how that would transform transform a pastoral team meeting?

[00:26:11] Yeah, I'm actually I actually think you're better than me

[00:26:15] And I'm actually not just looking out for my interest, but I'm looking out for your interest

[00:26:19] See those are biblical values of leadership

[00:26:23] That I think we need to train guys in

[00:26:25] And or take first corinthians 1347 love is patient love is kind it does not boast that it's not arrogant

[00:26:31] Well, just take the word love

[00:26:33] and and substitute it for

[00:26:36] uh, the loving leader

[00:26:39] The loving leader is patient the loving leader is kind the loving leader is not arrogant the loving leader does not boast

[00:26:45] So I think we need to be equipping guys with the right values the right motives

[00:26:52] So number one if you're a pastor, you're a leader, but that doesn't mean you have to become a secular

[00:26:57] So how do you lead?

[00:26:59] in a way

[00:27:01] With the right the same motives and the same mission and method as the leader you represent. It's jesus

[00:27:08] now

[00:27:09] Then I might mean what you have to actually do is identify people with leadership and administrative gifts

[00:27:15] Who are part of the team of leaders who now?

[00:27:18] operationalize what you're getting out of the word if you don't have those particular skills

[00:27:23] You need to honor the gifts. God's given to others

[00:27:27] By equipping them to help you lead

[00:27:30] Some guys will have those gifts, but they have to exercise them in a christ centered christlike spirit filled way

[00:27:38] Which we deal with in a chapter we talk about

[00:27:41] Leading in the power of the holy spirit in the book

[00:27:44] so, um, I think we have to the answer to your question is

[00:27:48] We have to help pastor see that you are leading the question is whether you're leading well or not

[00:27:53] And then are you leading to the right mission with the right methods and the right motives?

[00:27:58] Not just the right message. You can't compromise the message

[00:28:02] And once you've got that down are there things you can learn by common grace

[00:28:07] In the realm of common grace

[00:28:09] That when they're filtered properly you can actually learn how to operationalize things, you know to be biblical

[00:28:15] That's that's how I would address it. Yeah, that's really good

[00:28:18] You mentioned this phrase man of god is helpful for orienting pastors and their identity and their duty

[00:28:24] That sounds like a word from like, uh independent fundamentalist baptists like move

[00:28:28] I don't think i've ever heard anybody else use it. So tell me more about your yeah

[00:28:32] Well, not to mention. I mean, I guess I read it in the old testament as well. So

[00:28:36] Well, there you go. Yeah

[00:28:38] well, it's it's actually um

[00:28:40] It's actually the term the paul gives to timothy both both in first timothy

[00:28:46] Six and second timothy chapter four

[00:28:50] And you're right. It goes all the way back to the old testament

[00:28:54] And it begins with moses

[00:28:56] And there's an author named jonathan griffus who actually tipped me off to this in his little book on preaching in the new testament

[00:29:04] And if you trace man of god from moses all the way through to

[00:29:09] Second timothy chapter four what you really realize is

[00:29:13] The man of god is god's man

[00:29:15] Who has set apart with god's word?

[00:29:19] To lead god's people into god's purposes. So if you think about moses moses job was to be

[00:29:24] a prophet

[00:29:26] But the end of his prophesying was to get god's people out of egypt and into the promise lane

[00:29:31] He was to lead them out

[00:29:34] And you see this function as you follow the man of god through the scriptures

[00:29:38] It's striking to me that this is the last term

[00:29:41] That paul uses of timothy in second timothy chapter four

[00:29:46] So, uh, I think it is lined up with the word pastor. It's lined up with the word

[00:29:51] herald or kiruk or preacher

[00:29:54] Ambassador and all those titles being used for pastors

[00:29:58] So I think it's a helpful term to help us realize where god's man with god's word to lead

[00:30:03] God's people now where it can become

[00:30:06] I think in some circles problematic is and I just put it this way

[00:30:10] You're not the man of god

[00:30:13] There's one the man of god and he's at the right hand of the father

[00:30:17] You're a man of god

[00:30:19] And in how you exercise that office

[00:30:22] You are to imitate him to his people

[00:30:26] And so it's not a term. It's not a term that can be used for authoritarianism

[00:30:30] It's not a term that can be used for independence

[00:30:33] It's a term that says I am a steward of god's word

[00:30:37] Appointed by god's son

[00:30:40] dependent on god's spirit and all of that has to shape how you exercise

[00:30:45] Your ministry as a man of god. That's really helpful

[00:30:49] Uh, what was the connection would you say between preaching and leadership in jesus's earthly ministry?

[00:30:56] Yeah, if you look at luke chapter four

[00:30:58] when jesus gives you uh, is what is is

[00:31:02] As close to a personal mission statement as you get from jesus

[00:31:06] He's preaching in the synagogue of nazar is nazareth

[00:31:09] and he picks up on luke chapter 61

[00:31:13] And where it promises the servant of the lord

[00:31:16] and

[00:31:18] with some other scholars, you know, I think this was probably the jesus

[00:31:23] Speech that he was making his sermon for the synagogues as he was making his way around gallally probably asked for the scroll

[00:31:30] And you notice what it says the spirit of the lord is upon me because he's anointed me to preach

[00:31:35] Good news to the poor. He's anointed me to preach

[00:31:39] liberty to the captains

[00:31:41] Um, so right there in that in that passage in that promise what you find is that how do people get liberty?

[00:31:47] How do they get led out of bondage? How do they get?

[00:31:51] How do they get led into the blessings of the kingdom of god?

[00:31:55] Which christ as the king has come to inaugurate?

[00:31:59] And now he sends his church to extend

[00:32:02] And so

[00:32:04] What where's the what's the relationship to preaching a leadership in the life of jesus?

[00:32:09] jesus

[00:32:10] Preaches the word to lead his people out of bondage and into his kingdom blessings

[00:32:16] And then you notice at the end of chapter 4 when jesus is off praying

[00:32:21] And they come and try to stop him from leaving them because they want to keep the blessings to themselves

[00:32:25] He said let's go. I must preach the kingdom. I must preach the kingdom of god

[00:32:30] In other towns as well for I was sent for this purpose. So the relationship

[00:32:34] between jesus preaching and the inauguration of the kingdom

[00:32:40] And then when he commissions his church the extension of his kingdom

[00:32:45] And then nick if you just follow all the way through the gospel of luke, you notice how often

[00:32:51] The blessings of the kingdom are brought through jesus preaching

[00:32:54] So the underlying premise I have is that jesus

[00:32:58] In his earthly ministry inaugurated his kingdom through preaching

[00:33:04] And that preaching and that

[00:33:06] As it points to and culminates in his death and resurrection and the pouring out of the holy spirit

[00:33:13] And then

[00:33:14] You asked about the earthly ministry of jesus

[00:33:17] If we follow the new testament through what you find out is

[00:33:20] That as jesus commissions his church and as he appoints preachers

[00:33:25] To use thomas goodwin's phrase when he's talking about hebrus

[00:33:29] That christ jesus has his pulpit in heaven even to this day

[00:33:33] That jesus is still preaching through the word preached

[00:33:37] And um

[00:33:38] So that's how that's how it relates

[00:33:41] Preaching relates to the life and ministry of jesus both in the state of humiliation and in the state of exaltation

[00:33:46] Are you referring to hebrus one verse one and two?

[00:33:50] that

[00:33:51] Well, what hebrus one one and two tells us that he is the word of god

[00:33:54] He's the final he is the final revelation of consummation, but it's actually

[00:33:58] Over in hebrus 12 where he says see that you do not you don't fail to listen to him

[00:34:03] Who is who yet speaks? Oh, yeah

[00:34:06] Yeah, and and goodwin and thomas goodwin picked up on that. He says he jesus still got his pulpit

[00:34:11] Heaven to this day. Yeah, that's good. All right. What priorities should a pastor's calendar reveal?

[00:34:17] So one of the things that we can tend to miss I think

[00:34:21] When we rightly prioritize preaching

[00:34:25] Is the priority that the apostle the lord jesus and the apostles both by example and prescription put on earnest prayer

[00:34:33] So I used to say that if you're looking at a church that's struggling with health

[00:34:37] I would look at the pulpit and say what's happening in that pulpit

[00:34:41] But now I do that but I also look back beyond the pulpit and I say what's happening in the prayer class

[00:34:47] What's happening in the prayer life of the pastor matured? So

[00:34:51] I think the dual priorities that should be dominant in the pastor's calendar

[00:34:57] Are prayer and the word

[00:34:59] That's what you see with the apostles and x

[00:35:02] chapter six

[00:35:04] And you can just trace it out through the script but but I also want to emphasize and this is

[00:35:09] Through some study in recent years of the scriptures and then the history of revival

[00:35:14] Um, that it's not just professional passing or perfunctory prayer

[00:35:20] It's earnest prayer and you see this in scriptures

[00:35:24] So I think earnest prayer is a priority

[00:35:27] Is I'll put it as I put it before and put it in the book then the preaching of the word

[00:35:31] The best and the bulk of the pastor's time is to be given to the study of the scriptures

[00:35:37] So that he can be preaching and teaching the scriptures to the church

[00:35:40] Um, so those are two then I think um

[00:35:44] Leadership development

[00:35:47] Second Timothy chapter two verse two paul says to says to timothy and part to faithful men who will be able to teach others also

[00:35:54] And I think one of the things we can miss is that we actually multiply faithful word ministry by multiplying faithful ministers of the word

[00:36:02] So leadership development

[00:36:04] And then based on Ephesians chapter four, I think equipping the saints for their work at the ministry

[00:36:09] Which doesn't necessarily mean you've got to create a whole bunch of other activities where you're training people for things

[00:36:15] I think is because of Ephesians 4 if you're preaching the word

[00:36:19] Uh an expository spirit filled manner week to week month to month year to year people are being equipped for the work in ministry

[00:36:27] And then I think you find ways to extend your pulpit ministry

[00:36:31] In teaching people how to do ministry from the word and then of course

[00:36:36] Because the books the pastor's leader, I just couldn't cover all the duties of a pastor

[00:36:40] And so I've got a footnote that talks about the private ministry of the word

[00:36:44] the care of souls

[00:36:46] Visiting with people counseling people

[00:36:49] Uh nurturing the weak and and pursuing the wandering

[00:36:53] So that's how I would lay out the duties, but he fundamentally the reason I use that title man of god

[00:36:59] Is because because that's a title that points to the pastor is primarily a steward of the word

[00:37:05] And all of those other priorities prayer leadership leadership development

[00:37:10] um

[00:37:11] soul care evangelism which I didn't mention

[00:37:14] All of that is an extension of the word ministry

[00:37:18] You're a man of the word and when you do all of that you're bringing the word into that situation

[00:37:23] Yeah, john that's really helpful and I feel like there's so much more that you have to share and I'm sure that many much of it is

[00:37:30] Written in your book. So I'd recommend people to check out the book the pastor as leader

[00:37:36] And uh, john is there any way that people can keep up with you online? Is there places where you write?

[00:37:42] things like that

[00:37:43] Well, I've got a little that we got the book. I don't have a social media presence

[00:37:47] There's a few little articles that are out there and table talk and some like in your things and things like that

[00:37:52] But I'm not I'm not quite out there on social media. Got it. So pick up the book pick up the book. That'd be great

[00:37:58] Awesome. Hey, john. It was a pleasure speaking with you. Nick. It's been great to be with you. Thanks so much

[00:38:05] Thanks for listening to this episode of theology for the people

[00:38:08] Just a quick side note on my discussion with john after we finished this recording

[00:38:13] John said something to me that really encouraged me

[00:38:16] John teaches preaching at west minister seminary and he knew that i'm involved with calvary chapel

[00:38:21] And what he said after the recording was that calvary chapel has

[00:38:25] Shaped the way that he preaches and the way that he teaches other people to preach

[00:38:30] Because in his experience when you go into a calvary chapel church, there's a palpable expectation

[00:38:36] That when you open up the bible to study it together

[00:38:38] The god is going to do something in that moment and lives are going to be changed

[00:38:43] I found that comment very encouraging

[00:38:46] New episodes of theology for the people are released every wednesday

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[00:38:52] In the next episode i'll be speaking with dr. John wittaker from boise, idaho

[00:38:57] John and i served together on the leadership team of expositors collective

[00:39:01] John has served as a pastor and theologian for many years

[00:39:05] And he's passionate about the topics of spiritual growth and disciple making

[00:39:10] We have a discussion about the theology behind that and the need for a discipleship pathway

[00:39:15] You won't want to miss it

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